Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

I have a stam DK a stam warden and a Stamplar that are candidates for being WW, the DK is a dark elf, stam warden is an orc and stamplar an argonian. I think the best candidate to WW would be my warden. Basically i am thinking to combine Ravager set with reactive set and maybe 1 monster piece, and dw or sword and shield, and backbar 2h asylum axe or 2h hammer. Dont think i can fit 2 monster pieces. would this work ?
If i have to use a monster set, i got troll king

my cp is 347

Would this 2 sets would work without WW form also ? cause from what i saw ww only lasts few seconds

I would say your Argonian stamplar is the best candidate for werewolf. The class- and racial passives suits a werewolf oriented build slightly better. Orc is a great race for werewolf, however, I don´t see Warden as such a great class for werewolf. Some people will disagree with me, but I´ll stand by that statement for now. Simple reason is that Warden only got one passive that is active in werewolf-form (Icy Aura, which reduce effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%). It´s not a bad passive, but an Argonian Stamplar has really useful passives. But if you want to go with your Warden as a werewolf, I say go for it, getting used to the playstyle is more important than anything else.

While the majority of our damage is melee damage, I´ve found the uptime on Ravager to be really low on a werewolf. It´s a good set for stamplar in human form, since both Biting Jabs and Burning Light (passive) can proc it. If you´re after burst damage I would look more towards Clever Alchemist, just take note that you need to be in combat to proc the Clever Alchemist 5 piece bonus (even though the tooltip of the set doesn´t say so). Reactive is a good choice if you want to stay on the defensive side.

If you want to use your suggested setup I would go with the following:
5 Reactive (5 Body)
5 Ravager (3 Jewels + 2 Weapons on frontbar): You want the Werewolf ultimate on this bar.
Asylum 2-hander Backbar
2 pieceTrollking Monster helmet.

The Max health passive also works in werewolf form on a Warden

So techinically two passives.

The last passive in green balace gives you
minor toughness regardless how you heal yourself

From what I´ve heard and read it only works on actual allies (certain sets/skills consider yourself an ally while others don´t), but I can be wrong. But even if it does, I would still pick Templar over Warden for a werewolf build.

It does indeed work. I have my warden werewolf and It occurs on any healing, including yourself. The buff is given regardless where the heal comes from, including troll king procs and seventh legion

I was just giving you some extra info, Not debating on which class is better. Personally I just prefer the wardens ability to live and get to werewolf

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

I have a stam DK a stam warden and a Stamplar that are candidates for being WW, the DK is a dark elf, stam warden is an orc and stamplar an argonian. I think the best candidate to WW would be my warden. Basically i am thinking to combine Ravager set with reactive set and maybe 1 monster piece, and dw or sword and shield, and backbar 2h asylum axe or 2h hammer. Dont think i can fit 2 monster pieces. would this work ?
If i have to use a monster set, i got troll king

my cp is 347

Would this 2 sets would work without WW form also ? cause from what i saw ww only lasts few seconds

I would say your Argonian stamplar is the best candidate for werewolf. The class- and racial passives suits a werewolf oriented build slightly better. Orc is a great race for werewolf, however, I don´t see Warden as such a great class for werewolf. Some people will disagree with me, but I´ll stand by that statement for now. Simple reason is that Warden only got one passive that is active in werewolf-form (Icy Aura, which reduce effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%). It´s not a bad passive, but an Argonian Stamplar has really useful passives. But if you want to go with your Warden as a werewolf, I say go for it, getting used to the playstyle is more important than anything else.

While the majority of our damage is melee damage, I´ve found the uptime on Ravager to be really low on a werewolf. It´s a good set for stamplar in human form, since both Biting Jabs and Burning Light (passive) can proc it. If you´re after burst damage I would look more towards Clever Alchemist, just take note that you need to be in combat to proc the Clever Alchemist 5 piece bonus (even though the tooltip of the set doesn´t say so). Reactive is a good choice if you want to stay on the defensive side.

If you want to use your suggested setup I would go with the following:
5 Reactive (5 Body)
5 Ravager (3 Jewels + 2 Weapons on frontbar): You want the Werewolf ultimate on this bar.
Asylum 2-hander Backbar
2 pieceTrollking Monster helmet.

The Max health passive also works in werewolf form on a Warden

So techinically two passives.

The last passive in green balace gives you
minor toughness regardless how you heal yourself

From what I´ve heard and read it only works on actual allies (certain sets/skills consider yourself an ally while others don´t), but I can be wrong. But even if it does, I would still pick Templar over Warden for a werewolf build.

It does indeed work. I have my warden werewolf and It occurs on any healing, including yourself. The buff is given regardless where the heal comes from, including troll king procs and seventh legion

I was just giving you some extra info, Not debating on which class is better. Personally I just prefer the wardens ability to live and get to werewolf

Can confirm. I WW on my warden and the bonus health works, but only if you heal yourself while you are missing health. It won't work if you are at full health, same as in human form.

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

I prefer nb... that 10% stam+mag rec + ulti reg while out of combat+fast ulti reg when soulharvest is frontbarred is just tooo goood not to have :-)

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

I have a stam DK a stam warden and a Stamplar that are candidates for being WW, the DK is a dark elf, stam warden is an orc and stamplar an argonian. I think the best candidate to WW would be my warden. Basically i am thinking to combine Ravager set with reactive set and maybe 1 monster piece, and dw or sword and shield, and backbar 2h asylum axe or 2h hammer. Dont think i can fit 2 monster pieces. would this work ?
If i have to use a monster set, i got troll king

my cp is 347

Would this 2 sets would work without WW form also ? cause from what i saw ww only lasts few seconds

I would say your Argonian stamplar is the best candidate for werewolf. The class- and racial passives suits a werewolf oriented build slightly better. Orc is a great race for werewolf, however, I don´t see Warden as such a great class for werewolf. Some people will disagree with me, but I´ll stand by that statement for now. Simple reason is that Warden only got one passive that is active in werewolf-form (Icy Aura, which reduce effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%). It´s not a bad passive, but an Argonian Stamplar has really useful passives. But if you want to go with your Warden as a werewolf, I say go for it, getting used to the playstyle is more important than anything else.

While the majority of our damage is melee damage, I´ve found the uptime on Ravager to be really low on a werewolf. It´s a good set for stamplar in human form, since both Biting Jabs and Burning Light (passive) can proc it. If you´re after burst damage I would look more towards Clever Alchemist, just take note that you need to be in combat to proc the Clever Alchemist 5 piece bonus (even though the tooltip of the set doesn´t say so). Reactive is a good choice if you want to stay on the defensive side.

If you want to use your suggested setup I would go with the following:
5 Reactive (5 Body)
5 Ravager (3 Jewels + 2 Weapons on frontbar): You want the Werewolf ultimate on this bar.
Asylum 2-hander Backbar
2 pieceTrollking Monster helmet.

The Max health passive also works in werewolf form on a Warden

So techinically two passives.

The last passive in green balace gives you
minor toughness regardless how you heal yourself

From what I´ve heard and read it only works on actual allies (certain sets/skills consider yourself an ally while others don´t), but I can be wrong. But even if it does, I would still pick Templar over Warden for a werewolf build.

It does indeed work. I have my warden werewolf and It occurs on any healing, including yourself. The buff is given regardless where the heal comes from, including troll king procs and seventh legion

I was just giving you some extra info, Not debating on which class is better. Personally I just prefer the wardens ability to live and get to werewolf

Can confirm. I WW on my warden and the bonus health works, but only if you heal yourself while you are missing health. It won't work if you are at full health, same as in human form.

Yes indeed. It does require any percentage of health below 100% and a heal for it to show.

It will also work from casting your animals, meaning it is up nearly 100% of the fight due to the innate nature of always taking damage and casting as a warden

Qbiken · March 2018

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I prefer nb... that 10% stam+mag rec + ulti reg while out of combat+fast ulti reg when soulharvest is frontbarred is just tooo goood not to have :-)

Think it´s 15% more recovery for HP-regen, Mag-regen and stamina regen. Working on a stamblade Khajiit at the moment. Will see if the old "true" HP-regen builds still can compete with the defile-meta out there.

andreyss · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

I have a stam DK a stam warden and a Stamplar that are candidates for being WW, the DK is a dark elf, stam warden is an orc and stamplar an argonian. I think the best candidate to WW would be my warden. Basically i am thinking to combine Ravager set with reactive set and maybe 1 monster piece, and dw or sword and shield, and backbar 2h asylum axe or 2h hammer. Dont think i can fit 2 monster pieces. would this work ?
If i have to use a monster set, i got troll king

my cp is 347

Would this 2 sets would work without WW form also ? cause from what i saw ww only lasts few seconds

I would say your Argonian stamplar is the best candidate for werewolf. The class- and racial passives suits a werewolf oriented build slightly better. Orc is a great race for werewolf, however, I don´t see Warden as such a great class for werewolf. Some people will disagree with me, but I´ll stand by that statement for now. Simple reason is that Warden only got one passive that is active in werewolf-form (Icy Aura, which reduce effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%). It´s not a bad passive, but an Argonian Stamplar has really useful passives. But if you want to go with your Warden as a werewolf, I say go for it, getting used to the playstyle is more important than anything else.

While the majority of our damage is melee damage, I´ve found the uptime on Ravager to be really low on a werewolf. It´s a good set for stamplar in human form, since both Biting Jabs and Burning Light (passive) can proc it. If you´re after burst damage I would look more towards Clever Alchemist, just take note that you need to be in combat to proc the Clever Alchemist 5 piece bonus (even though the tooltip of the set doesn´t say so). Reactive is a good choice if you want to stay on the defensive side.

If you want to use your suggested setup I would go with the following:
5 Reactive (5 Body)
5 Ravager (3 Jewels + 2 Weapons on frontbar): You want the Werewolf ultimate on this bar.
Asylum 2-hander Backbar
2 pieceTrollking Monster helmet.

Do you think that pelinal + ravager would work better?
Was thinking at reactive cause most of the time in pvp i am snared or cced, and a bit short on cash to keep buying the immovability potions.
Would this work with my low CP and for farming in IC and in cyrodilll ?
Is my 1st ww build so...as noob as i can get

Qbiken · March 2018

andreyss wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

I have a stam DK a stam warden and a Stamplar that are candidates for being WW, the DK is a dark elf, stam warden is an orc and stamplar an argonian. I think the best candidate to WW would be my warden. Basically i am thinking to combine Ravager set with reactive set and maybe 1 monster piece, and dw or sword and shield, and backbar 2h asylum axe or 2h hammer. Dont think i can fit 2 monster pieces. would this work ?
If i have to use a monster set, i got troll king

my cp is 347

Would this 2 sets would work without WW form also ? cause from what i saw ww only lasts few seconds

I would say your Argonian stamplar is the best candidate for werewolf. The class- and racial passives suits a werewolf oriented build slightly better. Orc is a great race for werewolf, however, I don´t see Warden as such a great class for werewolf. Some people will disagree with me, but I´ll stand by that statement for now. Simple reason is that Warden only got one passive that is active in werewolf-form (Icy Aura, which reduce effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%). It´s not a bad passive, but an Argonian Stamplar has really useful passives. But if you want to go with your Warden as a werewolf, I say go for it, getting used to the playstyle is more important than anything else.

While the majority of our damage is melee damage, I´ve found the uptime on Ravager to be really low on a werewolf. It´s a good set for stamplar in human form, since both Biting Jabs and Burning Light (passive) can proc it. If you´re after burst damage I would look more towards Clever Alchemist, just take note that you need to be in combat to proc the Clever Alchemist 5 piece bonus (even though the tooltip of the set doesn´t say so). Reactive is a good choice if you want to stay on the defensive side.

If you want to use your suggested setup I would go with the following:
5 Reactive (5 Body)
5 Ravager (3 Jewels + 2 Weapons on frontbar): You want the Werewolf ultimate on this bar.
Asylum 2-hander Backbar
2 pieceTrollking Monster helmet.

Do you think that pelinal + ravager would work better?
Was thinking at reactive cause most of the time in pvp i am snared or cced, and a bit short on cash to keep buying the immovability potions.
Would this work with my low CP and for farming in IC and in cyrodilll ?
Is my 1st ww build so...as noob as i can get

If you want something beginner friendly I would highly recommend using Shacklebreaker. Pelinial is used only to boost Hircine´s Rage/Fortitude. For Pelinial to be useful you need to stack a lot of weapon-damage. And when doing that you´ll be sacrificing either survivability or sustain. I would try out Shacklebreaker + Ravager + Trollking as a starter. Shacklebreaker is craftable, Ravager can be found in guildstores and Troll King is not too difficult to farm. If you´re short on cash (as you mentioned), I would go with Shacklebreaker + Prisoner + Trollking.

Big pro with Prisoner is that it´s easy to farm weapons from it. All the world bosses are close to way shrines and there´s also a one-handed axe that comes as a reward from one of the quests there (the quest where you help an Argonian with something)

That setup will have some crazy magicka and stamina sustain, while still maintaining decent healing capacities through the spell-damage bonus from Shacklebreaker.

Aznox · March 2018

Heavy (5/1/1) Shacklebreaker + Troll King + Prismatic armor enchants (when ready to commit some gold) + Impenetrable traits + ult on DW bar (or S&B)

will always be a safe choice for someone who wants to have some fun in battlegrounds with werewolf.

Troll King takes care of the sustained healing
Shacklebreaker takes care of both burst healing and damage output

From there you can go for another damage set if you are confident (Automaton, Seven Legion, Ravager, Truth, etc ...)

Or start safe with something more defensive (Impregnable, Reactive, Barkskin, etc..)

For now i'm not really a fan of Prisoner on Werewolf (i do use a golded set for my stamsorc "runner" build in crazy-king) because by the time you have emptied your 13k magicka pool, you should have either [used line of sight to drop the focus from you] or [killed an opponent] so that Troll King is now enough to keep you alive.

andreyss · March 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

andreyss wrote: »

I have a stam DK a stam warden and a Stamplar that are candidates for being WW, the DK is a dark elf, stam warden is an orc and stamplar an argonian. I think the best candidate to WW would be my warden. Basically i am thinking to combine Ravager set with reactive set and maybe 1 monster piece, and dw or sword and shield, and backbar 2h asylum axe or 2h hammer. Dont think i can fit 2 monster pieces. would this work ?
If i have to use a monster set, i got troll king

my cp is 347

Would this 2 sets would work without WW form also ? cause from what i saw ww only lasts few seconds

I would say your Argonian stamplar is the best candidate for werewolf. The class- and racial passives suits a werewolf oriented build slightly better. Orc is a great race for werewolf, however, I don´t see Warden as such a great class for werewolf. Some people will disagree with me, but I´ll stand by that statement for now. Simple reason is that Warden only got one passive that is active in werewolf-form (Icy Aura, which reduce effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%). It´s not a bad passive, but an Argonian Stamplar has really useful passives. But if you want to go with your Warden as a werewolf, I say go for it, getting used to the playstyle is more important than anything else.

While the majority of our damage is melee damage, I´ve found the uptime on Ravager to be really low on a werewolf. It´s a good set for stamplar in human form, since both Biting Jabs and Burning Light (passive) can proc it. If you´re after burst damage I would look more towards Clever Alchemist, just take note that you need to be in combat to proc the Clever Alchemist 5 piece bonus (even though the tooltip of the set doesn´t say so). Reactive is a good choice if you want to stay on the defensive side.

If you want to use your suggested setup I would go with the following:
5 Reactive (5 Body)
5 Ravager (3 Jewels + 2 Weapons on frontbar): You want the Werewolf ultimate on this bar.
Asylum 2-hander Backbar
2 pieceTrollking Monster helmet.

Do you think that pelinal + ravager would work better?
Was thinking at reactive cause most of the time in pvp i am snared or cced, and a bit short on cash to keep buying the immovability potions.
Would this work with my low CP and for farming in IC and in cyrodilll ?
Is my 1st ww build so...as noob as i can get

If you want something beginner friendly I would highly recommend using Shacklebreaker. Pelinial is used only to boost Hircine´s Rage/Fortitude. For Pelinial to be useful you need to stack a lot of weapon-damage. And when doing that you´ll be sacrificing either survivability or sustain. I would try out Shacklebreaker + Ravager + Trollking as a starter. Shacklebreaker is craftable, Ravager can be found in guildstores and Troll King is not too difficult to farm. If you´re short on cash (as you mentioned), I would go with Shacklebreaker + Prisoner + Trollking.

Big pro with Prisoner is that it´s easy to farm weapons from it. All the world bosses are close to way shrines and there´s also a one-handed axe that comes as a reward from one of the quests there (the quest where you help an Argonian with something)

That setup will have some crazy magicka and stamina sustain, while still maintaining decent healing capacities through the spell-damage bonus from Shacklebreaker.

Any tips how to put the CP points for this so i can use it in CP cyrodill ? Got 348 CP points.
Managed to get 5 shacklebreaker(dual swords and heavy chest,shoes and legs) with 5 ravager( 3 jewelry with belt and gloves)
All impen

My main problem is my recovery, got just under 1k stam recovery when not transformed in noncp, if i put weapon glyphs only in jewelry

Aznox · March 2018

As Werewolf, your fear will also apply the off-balance status.
Heavy attacking an off-balance enemy will give you back around 12k stamina.
(Heavy attack + Heavy armor bonus (25%) + Werewolf bonus (100%) + off-balance bonus (100%) + CP bonus (0-15%))

Doing this every 7 seconds is equal to 3400 stamina regen : problem solved

Also as a heavy armor werewolf you should only use the howl for extra burst if you have stamina to spare.

SirDopey · March 2018

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, I'm starting to get a little bit bored with my Stam Warden PVP and seriously considering a WW build as it's the one thing I've never really spent much time doing in PVP.

I haven't seen much discussion around "Poisonous Serpent", is this set any good on a WW?

Yet to decide whether to try WW on my Khajit DK, Orc StamWarden or Imp StamSorc - but I'm trying to get an idea of what sets I already have access to and will synagize best with those classes.

LegendaryMage · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

As Werewolf, your fear will also apply the off-balance status.
Heavy attacking an off-balance enemy will give you back around 12k stamina.
(Heavy attack + Heavy armor bonus (25%) + Werewolf bonus (100%) + off-balance bonus (100%) + CP bonus (0-15%))

Doing this every 7 seconds is equal to 3400 stamina regen : problem solved

Also as a heavy armor werewolf you should only use the howl for extra burst if you have stamina to spare.

This is one of the main reasons why WW is broken. That much resources from a simple heavy attack while being in heavy armor and benefiting from insane resistances as WW, as well as having access to decent damage sets and increased healing is just way over the top.

WW is super fun though, if built right and the best way to play one is with friends who are also wolves (up to 80% reduction for staying in WW form).

However, I do hope that resource returns get toned down in general. WW just takes it ridiculously over the top, but this is a problem with other PVP builds as well.

You can build around this as a heavy armor magicka build and have some insane resource returns while backbaring a resto staff and investing 10.15% into tenacity.

Aznox · March 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

This is one of the main reasons why WW is broken. That much resources from a simple heavy attack while being in heavy armor and benefiting from insane resistances as WW, as well as having access to decent damage sets and increased healing is just way over the top.

You hear that boys ? WW is Broken ! Told you !

Don't be surprised though if there is 1 Werewolf for every 50 duelists in Bergama, or if you encounter one Werewolf in 10 Battlegrounds, it's just because the world doesn't know yet !

WW is super fun though, if built right and the best way to play one is with friends who are also wolves (up to 80% reduction for staying in WW form).

How about we don't dictate what's the best way to play ? Any experienced Werewolf knows how to manage his timer even when solo.

However, I do hope that resource returns get toned down in general. WW just takes it ridiculously over the top, but this is a problem with other PVP builds as well.

You can build around this as a heavy armor magicka build and have some insane resource returns while backbaring a resto staff and investing 10.15% into tenacity.

Look ! Players are building upon game mechanics to achieve effective results in a way that is not the most obvious one, Blasphemy !

Sorry for the sarcasm, you triggered me a bit, but i'm sure you have plenty of experience (i mean it) to share with us about this thread subject "Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)" , so please lets be constructive.

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

Oh wow, thats a first, WW is broken??? hmmm let me think when was the last time i saw a WW in open pvp.... must have been like 1 month ago and he got instakilled by a 19k lethal arrow followed up by a 15k by me on my bow gank noob easy mode spec... So no, definetly not broken very easy to kill because they usuall y have no idea how to play it.....

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As Werewolf, your fear will also apply the off-balance status.
Heavy attacking an off-balance enemy will give you back around 12k stamina.
(Heavy attack + Heavy armor bonus (25%) + Werewolf bonus (100%) + off-balance bonus (100%) + CP bonus (0-15%))

Doing this every 7 seconds is equal to 3400 stamina regen : problem solved

Also as a heavy armor werewolf you should only use the howl for extra burst if you have stamina to spare.

This is one of the main reasons why WW is broken. That much resources from a simple heavy attack while being in heavy armor and benefiting from insane resistances as WW, as well as having access to decent damage sets and increased healing is just way over the top.

WW is super fun though, if built right and the best way to play one is with friends who are also wolves (up to 80% reduction for staying in WW form).

However, I do hope that resource returns get toned down in general. WW just takes it ridiculously over the top, but this is a problem with other PVP builds as well.

You can build around this as a heavy armor magicka build and have some insane resource returns while backbaring a resto staff and investing 10.15% into tenacity.

You know the Ww-skills are the most expensive in game?????? our self heals cost 4.5k magica, all our sklills kost at least 3.8k stamina minimum...... and do you know how hard it is to land that fear-heavy attack combo against a skilled enemy???? play it first then comment on how broken it is please... The substain was one of the most difficult parts of the WW-game play expecially after the nerfs to substain after morrowind please dont nerf it even more!!!! Be glad they finally buffed it and use it to your advantage(expecially when the poisons are real in PvP)...

Sharee · March 2018

The WW heavy attack animation is 2 seconds(!!) long, which makes it virtually impossible to land on a target that is not standing still (the usual PvP player dodge rolling, bolting, LOSing, constantly moving at mach5 through you, etc.)

andreyss · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

As Werewolf, your fear will also apply the off-balance status.
Heavy attacking an off-balance enemy will give you back around 12k stamina.
(Heavy attack + Heavy armor bonus (25%) + Werewolf bonus (100%) + off-balance bonus (100%) + CP bonus (0-15%))

Doing this every 7 seconds is equal to 3400 stamina regen : problem solved

Also as a heavy armor werewolf you should only use the howl for extra burst if you have stamina to spare.

Yup i know in WW form i can do on with my stamina recovery, tried it last night.
My problem is when i am fighting in human form.Need to see how i can solve that.
Any tips how to put my 350 CP points for open world pvp ?

Qbiken · March 2018

This is one of the main reasons why WW is broken. That much resources from a simple heavy attack while being in heavy armor and benefiting from insane resistances as WW, as well as having access to decent damage sets and increased healing is just way over the top.

WW is super fun though, if built right and the best way to play one is with friends who are also wolves (up to 80% reduction for staying in WW form).

However, I do hope that resource returns get toned down in general. WW just takes it ridiculously over the top, but this is a problem with other PVP builds as well.

You can build around this as a heavy armor magicka build and have some insane resource returns while backbaring a resto staff and investing 10.15% into tenacity.

@LegendaryMage

Disclaimer: I might be a bit biased regarding this topic (since I only PvP with werewolfs these days), but bear with me for a second and I´ll try to explain why I think it´s somewhat "balanced".

First a little "background" about the way I see werewolfs
If we start by looking at the state of werewolfs before the Dragon-Bone (DB) patch, it was not looking good. Outside of roleplaying and certain PvE guilds, not many werewolfs was to be found, especially not in PvP. I can´t tell how it´s on other servers and platforms, but on PC/EU I´ve maybe seen 2-3 werewolf player/month while playing PvP, and that´s not too many.

For me at least, this gives a small hint that something isn´t very appealing with playing werewolf in PvP. One of the main reasons werewolf is unpopular in PvP is because the learning curve is quite big. Very difficult at first, but once you get the hang of it, it´s very rewarding.

One of the things that made werewolf difficult to play before the DB-patch, was to sustain stamina. The average cost of the werewolf skills is around 4k stamina, with the exception of Infectious Claws which costs 3,2k. Spamming any of your skills would lead (and will still do) to a very fast depletion of stamina, indirectly causing your death in PvP (No resources = RIP)

Now with the DB-patch ZOS made some major overhaul with how off-balance works. You now restore 2x times the resources when heavy attacking on an off-balanced enemy. A passive that makes werewolfs unique is the pursuit passive, which restores 100% more stamina on a heavy attack while in werewolf form. These two work independently of each other.
(Can´t provide real in-game screenshots at the moment since I´m at work)

- Test #1: In WW-form with 0/2 points into Pursuit and doing a heavy attack against an off-balanced player = Gives me roughly 6k stamina back.
- Test #2: In WW-form with 2/2 point into Pursuit and doing a heavy attack against a non off-balanced player = Gives me around 6k stamina back.

Now heavy attacks is the only way a werewolf can regain stamina (along with passive recovery but that goes for all classes/setups). I see werewolf as a "class of their" own since you´ve to dedicate your entire playstyle around it to be successful with it.
DK´s got battle roar and helping hands. Sorcs got dark deal, Templar got repentance, warden got a lot of way to get back stamina with their skills. And on top of this they can get stamina back by heavy attacking and passive recovery.

I re-read your post again and I interpret is as you speak "in general" about resource return when you say it needs to be tuned down a notch (correct me if I´m wrong). Werewolf haven´t got any changes since the Orsinium patch (pack leader morph was added/reworked). The change to off-balance was an indirect buff to them (and to anyone else who can utilize off-balance in PvP for that matter) and made them viable again, despite all the bugs that comes with playing werewolf. Justify a nerf to the pursuit passive because ZOS made a change to off-balance is just the wrong way to go. If ZOS want to tune down the resource return when heavy attacking on off-balanced enemies, so be it.

I find it very hard to believe that werewolfs became OP over a night/patch just because you get more stamina back when heavy attacking on an off-balanced enemy. The change made them more viable. Half of the time that heavy attack won´t hit due to werewolfs heavy attack having similar issue with their "hitbox" as Templars have with the "sweep-hitbox".

Sharee wrote: »

The WW heavy attack animation is 2 seconds(!!) long, which makes it virtually impossible to land on a target that is not standing still (the usual PvP player dodge rolling, bolting, LOSing, constantly moving at mach5 through you, etc.)

This as well, actually hitting that heavy attack on the enemy while he/she is off-balanced is easier said than done.

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

andreyss wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

As Werewolf, your fear will also apply the off-balance status.
Heavy attacking an off-balance enemy will give you back around 12k stamina.
(Heavy attack + Heavy armor bonus (25%) + Werewolf bonus (100%) + off-balance bonus (100%) + CP bonus (0-15%))

Doing this every 7 seconds is equal to 3400 stamina regen : problem solved

Also as a heavy armor werewolf you should only use the howl for extra burst if you have stamina to spare.

Yup i know in WW form i can do on with my stamina recovery, tried it last night.
My problem is when i am fighting in human form.Need to see how i can solve that.
Any tips how to put my 350 CP points for open world pvp ?

subsstainwise youll want to have at leaast 40 under warloard and tumbling then the rest under mooncalf&tenacity

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

Ok here something funny to cheer up the mood ;-)

Other guy: Any Vampire wants to bite me just a little?
Me: Sry I´m a werewolf , but I´ll still volunteer to take a nice juicy bite off you :-P
Me: Btw You dont need your right leg right??
Him: Stay away from me you hairy monster :-D
Me: Woof ;-)
HIm: :-D

Nice when not every1 takes the game so bloody serious

LegendaryMage · March 2018

@Mangeli200194 I played WW before you even knew how to transform into one, so lecturing me on how one plays and its strengths and weaknesses is really not needed.

You should also calm down a bit, just because you read something you don't like, doesn't mean you have to go into full I'm right & you're wrong mode. It's a discussion, ok? Cool it a bit.

Also, it's not 'substain', it's sustain, so please learn that before telling me more about it.

Reply @Aznox

Building a werewolf for duels and open world PVP are two different things. Most players don't know how to build either so to them it's perfectly balanced due to ignorance and lack of gameplay experience.

The forums are not the best place to get an opinion on what's balanced and what's not, there are many players who talk a lot but don't really know what they're talking about. Theorycrafting is fine, but balancing comments from yet another PVPer just make me close that tab instantly in most cases.

With that being said, I'd be happy to share a WW build or two, I'm 99% sure that I already have a fully built WW on PTS (unless they deleted it already) that I occasionally re-visit and take a look at, not only for testing out stuff but also for having a feel of how to best counter one.

I think we had some nice fights in Bergama if I'm not mistaken, you were very hard to kill in WW form and I'm not sure if you were in heavy or not, but WW in medium is pretty much a normal player in heavy due to almost 10k additional resistances.

Granted, I haven't played the game for 4 months but I always remember WWs being crazy strong in 1v1 so we can't argue that really.

Reply @Qbiken

WW skills are expensive for a reason. They hit like a truck on a capable build, so 'spamming' them has to come at a cost.

Look, I've built up my WW on PTS (maybe they deleted it recently), and I can tell you that my build has very decent damage (this is for Cyrodiil, not duels), insane healing capabilities (7 heavy Argonian with decent CP investments and full impene), very good magicka sustain thanks to shacklebreaker, constitution, argo's potion passives and tri-stats, very good stamina sustain thanks to bone pirate, dubious and serpent stone, and insane tankiness with (if I remember well), well over 45k resistances so we can negate that spell/physical pen and still be at the cap, and I get this by wearing 2x Chudan because I'm not a fan of pirate skeleton and I hope it gets nerfed into the ground.

And of course it's dual wield for maximum damage bonuses and stats, while off-bar is s/b and you go for decisive and more ultimate regen bonuses (heroic slash etc). so you go faster into WW mode.

DKs are the most practical class thanks to battleroar resetting the fight once you transform, as well as utility like talons/fossilize until you transform, but even templars can work with a bit of weapon damage bonus and some cost reduction on all skills and ultimates.

Now, is this unbalanced? Could be.

But now is 100% stamina return + 25% from heavy + 10% from CPs AND occasionally another 100% on TOP of that when someone is off balance (and they will be), balanced? Not in the slightest, I'm sorry but let's not be wolf biased too much.

This has nothing to do with you, but I also don't buy arguments that say that something is fine because not many are doing it, and therefore isn't over the top or else everyone would be doing it. This is wrong on so many levels I won't even discuss it.

Chasing meta is one thing, but meta has never been the best way to be effective in PVP, contrary to what it implies.

You can copy someone and go up there, but ultimately what you do alone is what will make you a better player, and therefore more effective in PVP. Meta changes every patch or two, skills are more permanent.

To give you an example, I don't have to play this game for 6 months and come back on a semi-outdated build and still go toe to toe with anyone, so that's proof that investing in yourself as a player is the most important thing one can do.

Again, nothing to do with you, just some of my observations with regards to how players think and play in general.

I like WW but let's not pretend that heavy attack stamina sustain is not out of control if built right and knowing how to take advantage of it. Which was the whole point of my previous post, it makes WW overpowered and there's no hiding from it no matter how we 'pack' it.

If you still think I'm wrong, I'll just quote another player who put it more simply.

Aznox wrote: »

As Werewolf, your fear will also apply the off-balance status.
Heavy attacking an off-balance enemy will give you back around 12k stamina.
(Heavy attack + Heavy armor bonus (25%) + Werewolf bonus (100%) + off-balance bonus (100%) + CP bonus (0-15%))

Doing this every 7 seconds is equal to 3400 stamina regen : problem solved

Qbiken · March 2018

@LegendaryMage I hope it´s ok that I only quote you on certain things on your response (don´t want to make it look that I take things out of context)

But now is 100% stamina return + 25% from heavy + 10% from CPs AND occasionally another 100% on TOP of that when someone is off balance (and they will be), balanced? Not in the slightest, I'm sorry but let's not be wolf biased too much.

This has nothing to do with you, but I also don't buy arguments that say that something is fine because not many are doing it, and therefore isn't over the top or else everyone would be doing it. This is wrong on so many levels I won't even discuss it.

I figured you might say something about that line. I asked myself before responding to your first comment if I should clarify myself about that statement or not. It was more of an observation rather than an argument, but I totally agree with you here.

I like WW but let's not pretend that heavy attack stamina sustain is not out of control if built right and knowing how to take advantage of it. Which was the whole point of my previous post, it makes WW overpowered and there's no hiding from it no matter how we 'pack' it.

I would say a lot of things in this game is overperforming in the right hands (Warden is a great example of just that), but I don´t want stuff nerfed just because certain people are very skilled or good at what they´re doing with certain classes.

But as I wrote, werewolf is not what´s overperforming. They´ve been unchanged since Orsinium. A simple change to off-balance doesn´t make an entire "class" OP over a night.

I might have been a little unclear, but I can agree that 12k is a lot. However, I don´t agree that the werewolf "class" needs to be nerfed (in this case the Pursuit passive). I suggest lowering the amount of resources you get back from heavy attacking an off-balanced enemy instead.

I (hopefully) think we can agree that the Pursuit Passive alone isn´t anywhere near broken or overpowered. Remove the off-balance buff and you sit at a 6k stamina return on a fully charged heavy attack (with Heavy armor + CP).

Edit: You´ve some insightful thoughts and I´m not going to question your knowledge about this game, but let´s not make this a nerf/buff thread (It was not my intention when creating the thread at least. Never expected the thread to become this big though.).

I would however be very interested to get some insight on that Argonian setup of yours. If you would like to share it of course

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

@LegendaryMage before I even new how to transform into 1??? lol, tell me more :-DD lets make this a who played the ww longest contest. Soooo ive played the first WW-builds ever since Eso launched on console when i started, not to mention playing pretty much only as a WW in Skyrim :-DD And yes im lecturing you because that oh this is op is what ruined so many classes in the first place and doing this to a playstyle maby 2-3% of all players play is imo stupid. Incap ok that is broken(even magblades prefer it over soul harvest atm), but WW?? not really otherwise youd see more players play it.
And before you go all "Grammar Naz i" on me, my english is still way better then your german(my native language) so lets not discuss our language knowledges.
Its really sad there can´t be any thread in the forums without somebody claming something is op, really sad imo

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

@Qbiken when there is a reliable base of active werewolf players on all platforms(more then 1 WW sighting in PvP every week like now) maby then we can discuss nerfs to the werewolf substain dont you think??? Cause the amount of players I see is pitiful compared to other builds like the classical roly-poly-incap nightblade setup :-(

Sharee · March 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I like WW but let's not pretend that heavy attack stamina sustain is not out of control if built right and knowing how to take advantage of it. Which was the whole point of my previous post, it makes WW overpowered and there's no hiding from it no matter how we 'pack' it.

It would be out of control if enemies were all standing still like target dummies, letting you hit them with an attack which has an animation two seconds long.

Two seconds.

This makes it almost impossible to land on a moving target. Sure you can fear a target to put him off balance and make him stop... but again, two seconds. If you are not trained to break free and dodge roll far before two second pass since the fear, you will be dying to a lot more things in cyrodiil than werewolves.

Unless you are fighting an NPC guard(or players who behave like one), you won't be getting 3400 stamina regen from WW heavy attacks anytime soon.

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

@Sharee Exactly..... I mean lets compare the WW to the ungodly amount of Stamwardens in PvP atm, and hes claming WW is OP??? there´s probably a dozen times more stamwardens out there in comparison....

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

Did someone actually say werewolf needs a nerf???

@LegendaryMage

LMFAO

The ultimate is useless ANYWHERE outside pvp. Not only that, its still not strong against players with any sort of counterplay THOUGHT. you must be terribad if you cant successfully fight a werewolf player of lesser skill. If they are simply a better player who is actually geared correctly with a good damage rotation, then that's what is called learning to outplay someone.

The only thing that needs nerfing are potentially the Defile status effect ITSELF, and
maybe bleed damage ignoring all mitigation.

But even then most werewolves play with good synergy combo's with proper fearing and High weapon damage and will not affect them.

The problem is players who refuse to learn mechanics and sitiuational awareness

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

@Nelson_Rebel
You pretty much nailed that 1

LegendaryMage · March 2018

@Qbiken

My reply is a bit longer so I will construct it into several categories that you can read in order, or skip at whatever you prefer.

On the Issue of Buffs & Nerfs

I'm not a big fan of nerfing things, as I believe it promotes bland and boring gameplay. This is one of the main balancing problems of ESO nowadays. In addition to at least half of all skills and armor sets in the game being relics of the past that nobody has bothered to update for years. We agree on that.

We also agree that WW should not be nerfed, me stating that it's overpowered does not mean that I would nerf it, it means that relative to other things in the game it's overpowered, and therefore other things should be brought up to par with it (not necessarily talking about WWs here, but in general).

I think that's a good principle that anyone who has been playing for some time can agree on.

I think we've all had enough of nerfs and would rather start seeing some buffs (ex, my own primary class, sorcerer which has been nerfed in every single way since the launch of the game).

Werewolf Gameplay & Build Decisions in General

Our WW build would focus on decent sustain, really high tankiness and very high healing along with decent magicka sustain.

This is needed because if we go full damage with insane maximum stamina, we will be locked into spamming heavy attacks and outside of 1v1s, this does not work in Cyrodiil well, even if we're as tanky as it gets. It will get the wolf killed once without juice, which won't take long.

Damage would be boosted via dual wield and not necessarily the sets, since it's not possible to cover all aspects of the build and perform perfectly, so we have to make some decisions on how the build will play and why.

One of the best stamina sustain sets is bone pirate, and things will change here once jewelry crafting is introduced into the game, but for now we can go with that as it also benefits WW's increased max stamina.

Redguard also benefits us here but Argonian is just as good with increased tankiness and healing bonuses (potion passive offsets a little bit of redguard's stam regen and provides us with a boosted heal and more magicka).

Salvation set is not bad for the reduced cost, but it's inferior in actual combat, even with the weapon damage bonus.

If we're not going to use it, we need to figure out a way to gain more ultimate and get into WW form faster.

Ideally if we can get our ulty gain to 2x the normal value, that would mean our ultimate cost is twice as cheaper effectively.

The build would work with salvation too of course, so it's not necessarily bad to go for salvation AND increased ulty gain, for maximum transformations. It's an option to be considered certainly.

Storing up ultimate faster can be achieved in other ways, such as minor heroism + decisive backbar weapon, as well as class passives such as the ones that DKs have. WW ultimate costs a lot so ANY additional ultimate gains will be important here.

WW Classes & Benefits

Any class can work, but certain classes will give more benefits in practical scenarios.

Sorcerers have power stone to help here, but my class of choice would be the DK simply because battleroar with a high cost ultimate (that we can regenerate faster) will effectively reset the fight once you transform, giving you space to go offensive immediately rather than spam heavy attacks or worry about low magicka to heal up.

Templars benefit from 4% cost reduction on everything and 6% weapon damage, as well as some spell resistance (DK has more of it at the cost of some weapon damage). So far DK is ahead due to battleroar.

Wardens (to the best of my knowledge) do not have much (if at all) to offer, so I'll skip those.

And finally NBs have some increased sustain options (15% recoveries) that always apply, as well as the potion ultimate passive.

With all that being considered, we have to remember that we will be spending time in human form in big fights so staying alive and being of use is also important. DK comes ahead here again with skills such as talons, fossilize, scales (remember, we will have decent magicka sustain so a tank/utility support build will be active while in human form on our s/b bar) etc.

DKs can also heal up with dragon blood based on missing health, so we can use more of our stamina to block, dodge and apply debuffs (ex, heroic slash).

With all this considered, DK would be the clear winner in my opinion, mainly due to;

- class tankiness and passives
- ability to last and provide utility/support while in human form
- heal up based on missing health without using weak honor the dead's (not that high max magicka or spell damage) or vigors.

WW Race Choices

Here we need to consider absolutely everything. Not just how effective we're while in WW form, but out of it, and also certain other things, such as maybe not being interested to play WW one day and still having a nicely useable character to work with.

Races that I would consider for WW would be:

- Redguard, Orc, Argonian & possibly Dark Elf/Imperial as a last resort.

Imperial would be good if red diamond worked like adrenaline rush, but redguard wins here clearly. Dark Elf would be decent if one day we want to convert that Dragonknight into a magicka DK (or even a stamina one since we have a little bit of extra stamina).

Orc would be decent for a stam DK and a werewolf setup, and Argonian would be the best jack of all trades races, giving you the option to play both magicka & stamina dk if you're not a WW one day, and still benefit you nicely as a WW due to tankiness and immunity to poison status effect & minor defile (if they didn't change it, or they don't change it).

For me, the clear winner here is Argonian due to the race's incredible versatility and options it provides.

WW Sets & Bonuses

Here there are as many opinions as players that are playing. My personal choice of sets for a balanced approach in Cyrodiil would be;

- 5x bone pirate with double axes and s/b on backbar (and jewelry of course).

Primary axe would be nirnhoned and secondary either precise or powered for additional healing done.

Shield would be sturdy and backbar sword would be decisive for slightly more ultimate gains thanks to DK's passives, regular ulty gain and other minor bonuses like heroism.

- 5x Heavy shacklebreaker, full impenetrable with perhaps reinforced chest (I like my chests being reinforced as it slightly outperforms impene there). It needs to be ebony style of course.

- 2x Mighty Chudan for increased resistances from 1x bonus, and permanent major resistances while in WW form (if you're like me and absolutely detest pirate skeleton out of principle, we go with this). Also heavy and impene.

All gear can go tri-stat glyphs or small pieces maximum stamina if you can't afford full tri-stat.

CPs I will skip for now, I'll have to review them again, but increased resource return from heavy attacks, in addition to dodge roll and breakfree reduction, with a bit of magicka/stamina regen.

Weapon enchantments are up for discussion, there are different options here.

Magicka & Healing Sustain - Gear + Consumables

One of the most important things will be our magicka sustain and healing power. Since we're an Argonian in heavy armor, we already get some nice bonuses, and we complement them with about 5% increased healing done in the blue CP constellation, and at least 5-8% in the red one.

We sustain magicka via shacklebreaker, constitution, bit of CPs, tri-stat potions and Argonian passives.

Alternatively, if we do not use bone pirate, we can use salvation with Orzoga's legendary food buff that will give us all recoveries, so in the end we will also have around 1k health recovery AND even higher magicka recovery, at the cost of some damage, so certainly an option to consider.

BP+ dubious will give you a lot more stamina, and more stamina regen at the cost of ultimate's cost and magicka sustain, but this is totally up to you. I'd personally go with BP + dubious to be more effective while in WW form, and to also dodge roll more.

A good way to increase your healing capability is to simply become more tanky, so you have to heal less.

This will benefit your magicka sustain, as well as offset problems with defile a bit since you'll be taking less damage and your heals will effectively do more against it.

And since we already have all of those healing done and taken bonuses along with tankiness, defile is much less severe to deal with.

Closing Words

M'aiq is done talking now, go bother somebody else.

IlCanis_LupuslI · March 2018

@LegendaryMage Your the one starting that, and expecially you of all players who main´s a sorc should know better. I mean wasnt it to exactly that kind of bs of people crying over things that sorcs got nerfed in almost every patch since day 1???? Remember when streak didnt have a penelty??? And somehow people who never ever played a sorc started crying that that mecanic was broken??? Right. Same thing with Stam dk and its substain.

P. S. Why is it always english speaking people who cant speak a decent sentence in german, nitpicking about grammar whenever they want to present themselves as superior???