Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Datolite · March 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

I came to the same conclusion just recently, though with one caveat: Black Rose is not crafted. I can see it being a fall-back set for a very tanky build if he already had his 5 crafted slots filled, but otherwise I would choose Shackle.

OFC, Shackle is better than black rose always, my initial thought was to combine Shackle With Black Rose.

Throw in some burst and you got yourself a stew goin'.

Lughlongarm · March 2018

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

I came to the same conclusion just recently, though with one caveat: Black Rose is not crafted. I can see it being a fall-back set for a very tanky build if he already had his 5 crafted slots filled, but otherwise I would choose Shackle.

OFC, Shackle is better than black rose always, my initial thought was to combine Shackle With Black Rose.

Throw in some burst and you got yourself a stew goin'.

Not even sure you you need offensive monster set with this combo. It gives together almost 300 weapon damage and 3k stamina. It's more offensive combination compared to the recommended pelinal/truth(when it's procking). This combo opens up many options for monster set.

Lughlongarm · March 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

I came to the same conclusion just recently, though with one caveat: Black Rose is not crafted. I can see it being a fall-back set for a very tanky build if he already had his 5 crafted slots filled, but otherwise I would choose Shackle.

OFC, Shackle is better than black rose always, my initial thought was to combine Shackle With Black Rose.

Throw in some burst and you got yourself a stew goin'.

Not even sure you you need offensive monster set with this combo. It gives together almost 300 weapon damage and 3k stamina. It's as offensive combination as the recommended pelinal/truth(when it's procking). This combo opens up many options for monster set.

Datolite · March 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Black Rose was nerfed too hard and it does not bring enough sustain to the table to be worth it.

Also it is would be counterproductive to drop 5/1/1 and go 7/0/0 to maximize Constitution.

Edit : As long as we are not doing math, please read as "my opinion".

I came to the same conclusion just recently, though with one caveat: Black Rose is not crafted. I can see it being a fall-back set for a very tanky build if he already had his 5 crafted slots filled, but otherwise I would choose Shackle.

OFC, Shackle is better than black rose always, my initial thought was to combine Shackle With Black Rose.

Throw in some burst and you got yourself a stew goin'.

Not even sure you you need offensive monster set with this combo. It gives together almost 300 weapon damage and 3k stamina. It's more offensive combination compared to the recommended pelinal/truth(when it's procking). This combo opens up many options for monster set.

To each their own, but I can definitely see this goingwell with Troll King for some serious survivability.

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Lughlongarm @Chrlynsch

Black Rose definitely comes in Robust, and I think all of the Tel Var sets have all trait options available.

Did it ever make it into the game? I remember they had them on pts, but changed the loot table when they added jewelry to boxes and kept them in line with tamreiel one changes.

Anyone have one in game?

Ritter · March 2018

@Chrlynsch - I don't have one in game and don't see any listed on TTC. Maybe I've been duped again!

Below is my preliminary stab at the Wolf-Proc build. It looks really strong, to be honest. Super-low Stam recovery, but the idea is to get hit a lot and I'm in 6x Heavy as a Redguard, so that+potions+heavy attacks should make it OK.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=49391

Thoughts?

I just need to farm the rings to try it, but can test drive it as soon as I have them. Might even run normals for blue rings to get started faster.

Qbiken · March 2018

I don´t think robust black rose rings exists. However, maximum stamina isn´t as important as it used to be for sustain (due to off-balance changes). Running with healthy jewelry and stamina drink like Lava foot stomp can work really good as well. I don´t have the exact math but my feeling says it should work similar to running robust jewels.

Edit: Just did the math. Compared Robust jewels + Dubious with Health Jewels + Lava foot. You gain some stamina-regen with the 2nd option, but you´ll lose quite some stamina and HP, which isn´t worth the trade-off.

Aznox · March 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Shacklebreaker gives 4k max stats/ 258 spell/weapon damage 258 magi/stam regen - Many claim that this set is Bis for WW

Black rose - gives 3.4k max stats 308 spell/weapon damage 189 magi/stam regen(if you go 5-1-1, more if you 6-1-0 or 7-0-0).

So black rose compared to Shacklebreaker is 600 max stat less 50 spell/weapon damage more, 70 magi/stam regen less.

It's not as good as Shacklebreaker but it gices like 90% of it's value. How can you claim one is Bis and the other is trash?
For pure stamina builds it doesn't worth it, but for WW builds you make use of all the bonuses.

This option is more offensive than most pelinal variations and you can still get like 15k WW heals with this setup with tri-stat food and weapon damage glyph.

If you could really get it's jewelry in robust, it could be a great option(at-least worth a try).

You are right that a 5/1/1 Black rose, assuming ideal conditions where constitution passive is proc'ed every 4 sec, is worth 89,58% of Shacklebreaker raw stats.

I wouldn't say it is trash at all, and if this set is to be used somewhere, it is on a Werewolf.

Black Rose jewelry does not exist in Robust, and combine with Shacklebreaker we end up with too much health and not enough damage for my taste. However if you want to swap Troll King with an offensive Monster set like Zaan, it could be interesting.

Lughlongarm · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Shacklebreaker gives 4k max stats/ 258 spell/weapon damage 258 magi/stam regen - Many claim that this set is Bis for WW

Black rose - gives 3.4k max stats 308 spell/weapon damage 189 magi/stam regen(if you go 5-1-1, more if you 6-1-0 or 7-0-0).

So black rose compared to Shacklebreaker is 600 max stat less 50 spell/weapon damage more, 70 magi/stam regen less.

It's not as good as Shacklebreaker but it gices like 90% of it's value. How can you claim one is Bis and the other is trash?
For pure stamina builds it doesn't worth it, but for WW builds you make use of all the bonuses.

This option is more offensive than most pelinal variations and you can still get like 15k WW heals with this setup with tri-stat food and weapon damage glyph.

If you could really get it's jewelry in robust, it could be a great option(at-least worth a try).

You are right that a 5/1/1 Black rose, assuming ideal conditions where constitution passive is proc'ed every 4 sec, is worth 89,58% of Shacklebreaker raw stats.

I wouldn't say it is trash at all, and if this set is to be used somewhere, it is on a Werewolf.

Black Rose jewelry does not exist in Robust, and combine with Shacklebreaker we end up with too much health and not enough damage for my taste. However if you want to swap Troll King with an offensive Monster set like Zaan, it could be interesting.

Black Rose jewelry does come in Robust, check 2 posts above the one you wrote. It's one of the reason I think this combo is good.

Ritter · March 2018

@Aznox -- Do you have any Battlegrounds VODs to share? I'd like to see your build in action to see what it's capable of while I farm up some of it. I'm planning to share some runs soon, but haven't recorded any yet!

If anyone else has some recent ones, I'd love to see you guys wrecking people.

Also, thanks to all for correcting my intel!

Aznox · March 2018

Actually i have everything setup for recording gameplay at high quality, but i was only doing it for my guild cyrodiil highlights (shared privately because of recorded voice comms)

Will try to record some BG action and take the time to upload it on youtube.

Aznox · March 2018

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Black Rose jewelry does come in Robust, check 2 posts above the one you wrote. It's one of the reason I think this combo is good.

It does not.

Healthy

Robust

Lughlongarm · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Black Rose jewelry does come in Robust, check 2 posts above the one you wrote. It's one of the reason I think this combo is good.

It does not.

Healthy

Robust

If it doesn't exist this combo doesn't worth it. back the the drawing table.

Qbiken · March 2018

Black rose is indeed an interesting set, and if it one day comes with robust jewels it might be a very viable option to pair with Shacklebreaker.But I did the math with healthy jewellery and the trade offs aren´t worth it.

Another thing as @Chrlynsch mentioned earlier is the possibility for jewel-crafting in the future. Pairing Shacklebreaker with Pelinial´s will probably be the new "meta" for werewolfs in that case.

However at the moment I don´t really get the point of focusing too much into sustain by using certain sets when playing werewolf (regarding Blackrose + Shacklebreaker). Off-balance + the resource return of heavy attacks is superior to any sustain set at the moment. I think you´re just gimping yourself if you don´t implement off-balance as a core-part of your werewolf build. The only choices you´ve to make is how you want to proc off-balance. The most reliable sources at the moment would be either:

* Tactician-passive from the atronach CP-tree. Downside is the it won´t work in no-CP environment and you´re forced to dodge enemy attacks. Upside is that it will still proc on enemies that are CC-immune (compared to our 2nd option)

* Rousing Roar. Easier to use in my opinion. Big downside is that it won´t work on enemies that are CC-immune. However, with the reduced duration to immovable pots (think it´s around 10 seconds now), it´s not such a big issue anymore. And if you have issues sustaining for less than 10 seconds, using another sustain set won´t help you that much if you ask me.

Nothing is written in stone and as said earlier in the thread, werewolf is a lot of "each to their own". But if you ask me, using 1 sustain set + 1 Offensive set is preferable. The monster helm is more or less a flex-spot depending on what situation you´ll be in.

Datolite · March 2018

No-CP really does make you rely more on sustain sets and that's my only real gripe about it. Very few skilled players will let you heavy attack them after being set off-balance in BGs (the wind-up animation is way too obvious) and so I only ever land them on stamina-drained targets or lucky hits. Everyone else will dodge or block. This is why I've gone back to Dubious Cameron while I brush up on my timing and rotation.

Speaking of meta, do you guys think there is a place for shields in the WW meta? For example, a Pelinal's build opting for a bit of extra defense and stats instead of the extra enchant proc from an infused off-hand axe. Has anyone done the math on how much damage you would lose? How necessary is that infused enchant?

Ritter · March 2018

@datoliteb16_ESO - I totally agree with you on the off-balance thought... If someone is off-balance, they are usually feared and I want to be hitting them with empowered Howls of Agony. Given how high @Qbiken is on the strategy, there's probably more to it than that. Do you have an addon that makes it easier to see when people are off-balance?

Most of my BG action involve me jumping in, causing chaos, doing lots of damage, and killing someone or someones. If the fight breaks up and it's 1v2 in pockets, that is my sweet spot, but most of the time my enemies are either running from me, dead, or I'm getting focus with no hope of survival. So, the only times I can imagine using a heavy to restore stamina are the cases where I probably could have just killed the guy and gotten the same back from standing there and feeding on him.

As for the infused weapon enchant @datoliteb16_ESO, it's such a high and reliable source of damage that I can't imagine something else being better. 452 with nearly 100% uptime with your WD buffs is really between 668-723 weapon damage you're losing. Dead wolves deal no damage, but I'd look for another way to ensure survival.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@datoliteb16_ESO - I totally agree with you on the off-balance thought... If someone is off-balance, they are usually feared and I want to be hitting them with empowered Howls of Agony. Given how high @Qbiken is on the strategy, there's probably more to it than that. Do you have an addon that makes it easier to see when people are off-balance?

Most of my BG action involve me jumping in, causing chaos, doing lots of damage, and killing someone or someones. If the fight breaks up and it's 1v2 in pockets, that is my sweet spot, but most of the time my enemies are either running from me, dead, or I'm getting focus with no hope of survival. So, the only times I can imagine using a heavy to restore stamina are the cases where I probably could have just killed the guy and gotten the same back from standing there and feeding on him.

As for the infused weapon enchant @datoliteb16_ESO, it's such a high and reliable source of damage that I can't imagine something else being better. 452 with nearly 100% uptime with your WD buffs is really between 668-723 weapon damage you're losing. Dead wolves deal no damage, but I'd look for another way to ensure survival.

I use just the basic combat text (turn on status effects or whatever) in ESO's interface. It shows FEARD! OFF-BALANCE! etc. after a howl. If you want something fancier I would check out Combat Cloud.

Good call. I am gonna keep around a shield just in case (made one already) but will focus on the 2 axe setup. So the consensus is main hand nirnhoned with weapon damage glyph, and off-hand infused with magicka enchant. I believe @Aznox did a bit of math about the glyph up-time that suggests the infused trait of your off-hand works better for your main hand. I just want to make sure before I gold out my weapons...

Nelson_Rebel · March 2018

THe big advantages to using the sword and shield is that you gain access to the bash skill.

Which gives you acces to a Defile outside werewolf making your pressure on the enemy far easier for when you do decide to transform. You could have Defile uptime on the enemy the entire battle and just drain his resources from him trying to heal, transform, boom dead. lol

The extra defense and survivability is just a bonus

Qbiken · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@datoliteb16_ESO - I totally agree with you on the off-balance thought... If someone is off-balance, they are usually feared and I want to be hitting them with empowered Howls of Agony. Given how high @Qbiken is on the strategy, there's probably more to it than that. Do you have an addon that makes it easier to see when people are off-balance?

Most of my BG action involve me jumping in, causing chaos, doing lots of damage, and killing someone or someones. If the fight breaks up and it's 1v2 in pockets, that is my sweet spot, but most of the time my enemies are either running from me, dead, or I'm getting focus with no hope of survival. So, the only times I can imagine using a heavy to restore stamina are the cases where I probably could have just killed the guy and gotten the same back from standing there and feeding on him.

As for the infused weapon enchant @datoliteb16_ESO, it's such a high and reliable source of damage that I can't imagine something else being better. 452 with nearly 100% uptime with your WD buffs is really between 668-723 weapon damage you're losing. Dead wolves deal no damage, but I'd look for another way to ensure survival.

"High on off-balance"

(Maybe I´m a little too addicted to it....)

Srendarr will show (if you enable enemy debuff window) how long the off-balance duration is. If not using addons there will be small spinning circles above the enemies head indicating that they´re off-balanced. Ferocious Roar (FR) will give 5 seconds off-balance duration (assuming they´re not CC-immune) that won´t be consumed by heavy attacks or when the enemy breaks free (I´ve tested it myself). So you can without issue fear and then use piercing howl for more damage, and then do a heavy attack for more resources, all within 5 seconds.

And if someone is constantly dodging my heavy attacks, they´re on their defensive side (and therefore not putting as much pressure on me) and draining their own stamina. Also remember that doing a heavy attack against an OB-enemy makes your heavy attacks do more damage.

Ritter · March 2018

Before I forget, most of us run infused+Weapon Damage on our off-hand, but what do you all have on the main hand? I've been running disease and that seems to be wasted due to the status effect being covered by our claws of anguish. I've really enjoyed infused oblivion damage at times, but not sure it's as good non-infused. Thoughts?

@Qbiken - I definitely don't focus much on heavy attacks right now, but I will try to experiment with it a bit.

I run no sustain set at all, but 5x medium+WW+potion keeps me at 1950 recovery and I'm a Redguard, so unless I'm spamming when I shouldn't be (happens often, I won't lie), resources are fine. Sprinting back to the fight zone is what kills me most of the time honestly. The Werewolf timer is a cruel mistress for the solo wolf.

@datoliteb16_ESO -- To be fair, golding out a shield is not all that expensive compared to metals, so it might be reasonable to just try it.

I run SnB in human form on my back bar and DW for beast mode. I love SnB in general, but I'd address survival in other ways before dropping DW.

Xvorg · March 2018

I've ben working on my pelinal's build and I got this:

No WW

WW

Ritter · March 2018

@Xvorg - This is for open-world Cyrodil/Imperial City and not BG, right? Looks like you have CP enabled. I know it's a ton of investment, but most Pelinal builds I've seen use tri-stat armor enchants, at least on the big pieces for the extra Magicka.

My only issue with the build is that it seems to lack direction. Stats are fine, but you've given up a monster set and a second 5pc which seems a bit crazy to me, but if it works, then it works!

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Remember we have 5 seconds to land that heavy attack after your fear. Remember howl of agony may do 30% more damage on a feared target but heavy attacks do also do 100% more damage on a off balance opponent.

I don't always try landing heavy attacks on my targets as a priority. Here is my usual strat.

Caster nightblades, sorcs, wardens, Templars are more likely going to leave themselves open after a fear, relying on shields not blocking and not roll dodging. These targets are great to work in some heavy howl/of agonies on.

Medium armor enemies are going to be near impossible to land a Roar Heavy Howl combo on if they have skill. Is best to focus on just landing the Roar/Howl. It is important that you try and keep a high up time of claws of anguish on these characters. Swing away with free light attacks as they dodge nearly everything else you throw at them.

Heavy armor orented builds are worth trying a roar/heavy/howl combo on. They also leave themselves open longer due to higher mitigation. Though shield users will normally bring their block up once they break free. Light attack spam works really well on these characters as bleed eats through block and heavy armor.

Datolite · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

Before I forget, most of us run infused+Weapon Damage on our off-hand, but what do you all have on the main hand? I've been running disease and that seems to be wasted due to the status effect being covered by our claws of anguish. I've really enjoyed infused oblivion damage at times, but not sure it's as good non-infused. Thoughts?

I was under the impression that it was weapon damage on main hand nirnhoned, and dealer's choice on infused off-hand.

I have magicka recovery but I use a Pelinal's build.

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

I've ben working on my pelinal's build and I got this:

No WW

WW

Look into Warrior instead of Lover, you will get more damage on all targets as the effects from Warrior can be buffed by, savage strength, major brutality, and Hircine's heal. This will also increase your healing as well with Pelinal's.

Xvorg · March 2018

Ritter wrote: »

@Xvorg - This is for open-world Cyrodil/Imperial City and not BG, right? Looks like you have CP enabled. I know it's a ton of investment, but most Pelinal builds I've seen use tri-stat armor enchants, at least on the big pieces for the extra Magicka.

My only issue with the build is that it seems to lack direction. Stats are fine, but you've given up a monster set and a second 5pc which seems a bit crazy to me, but if it works, then it works!

Yup, is for cyro open world. Actually I'm considering tristat but that's a next step

Basically I'm trying a hybrid WW build without losing potential in human form. S/B bar aims for penetration/breach/fracture. The idea is to use curse, then shield assault and pucture, so the enemy gets extra dmg when curse explodes.

Bow Bar mainly tries to apply major defile. The idea is to use fury as much as possible after puting poison injection to get both under the 50% threshold (and 20% too). I'll try to weave fury with some light attacks that help me to build ulti for WW. Attronach was placed there to get the extra regen from Daedrict protection passive (similar to curse but with less use).

I've also considered a monster set like Pirate skeleton or slimecraw, but I don't want to go on farming a Master Bow.

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

I've ben working on my pelinal's build and I got this:

No WW

WW

Look into Warrior instead of Lover, you will get more damage on all targets as the effects from Warrior can be buffed by, savage strength, major brutality, and Hircine's heal. This will also increase your healing as well with Pelinal's.

Also your agility are in healthy, make sure you get these in robust as well. You have all stamina regen on your jewelry. Swap these out with weapon damage as you see fit if you find yourself needing more damage or healing capability.

Aznox · March 2018

My current target rotation, in ideal conditions, would be :

- Hircine's Rage (refresh weapon damage buff if needed)
- Pounce (if needed to close the gap)
- Light attack (apply bleed and proc one weapon enchant)
animation cut into :
- Claws of Anguish (apply major defile and DoT)
- Light attack (another chance to proc berserker enchant)
animation cut into :
- Rousing Roar (apply fear and off-balance, refresh major brutality)
- Heavy attack (get back 12k stamina from off-balance, another chance to proc berserker enchant)
animation cut into :
- Howl of Agony (if you are animation canceling properly it will land before CC break for most targets and get +30%)
- Lights attack the enemy to death
- Restart combo as soon as the enemy loose CC immunity

The bold part is the key every Werewolf should master because landing one Heavy attack on off-balance every 8 second is worth as much sustain as 4500 stamina regen.

Aznox · March 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Remember we have 5 seconds to land that heavy attack after your fear. Remember howl of agony may do 30% more damage on a feared target but heavy attacks do also do 100% more damage on a off balance opponent.

I don't always try landing heavy attacks on my targets as a priority. Here is my usual strat.

Caster nightblades, sorcs, wardens, Templars are more likely going to leave themselves open after a fear, relying on shields not blocking and not roll dodging. These targets are great to work in some heavy howl/of agonies on.

Medium armor enemies are going to be near impossible to land a Roar Heavy Howl combo on if they have skill. Is best to focus on just landing the Roar/Howl. It is important that you try and keep a high up time of claws of anguish on these characters. Swing away with free light attacks as they dodge nearly everything else you throw at them.

Heavy armor orented builds are worth trying a roar/heavy/howl combo on. They also leave themselves open longer due to higher mitigation. Though shield users will normally bring their block up once they break free. Light attack spam works really well on these characters as bleed eats through block and heavy armor.

This is extremely good advice, although i would argue the average battleground medium user is not fast enough to dodge the Fear-Heavy-Howl and that its worth trying unless you know the guy.

Chrlynsch · March 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Remember we have 5 seconds to land that heavy attack after your fear. Remember howl of agony may do 30% more damage on a feared target but heavy attacks do also do 100% more damage on a off balance opponent.

I don't always try landing heavy attacks on my targets as a priority. Here is my usual strat.

Caster nightblades, sorcs, wardens, Templars are more likely going to leave themselves open after a fear, relying on shields not blocking and not roll dodging. These targets are great to work in some heavy howl/of agonies on.

Medium armor enemies are going to be near impossible to land a Roar Heavy Howl combo on if they have skill. Is best to focus on just landing the Roar/Howl. It is important that you try and keep a high up time of claws of anguish on these characters. Swing away with free light attacks as they dodge nearly everything else you throw at them.

Heavy armor orented builds are worth trying a roar/heavy/howl combo on. They also leave themselves open longer due to higher mitigation. Though shield users will normally bring their block up once they break free. Light attack spam works really well on these characters as bleed eats through block and heavy armor.

This is extremely good advice, although i would argue the average battleground medium user is not fast enough to dodge the Fear-Heavy-Howl and that its worth trying unless you know the guy.

I would argue the fact that if they are average that you will need no strategy and will melt them by rolling your face across the keyboard