Bring back C-Frags 20% additional damage.

Maulkin · March 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Never ever had a problem landing bow proc after an Incap or a Fear. What is this problem with landing Will you speak of?

The "problem" is CC break into rolldodge/block. (which is no problem at all because dmg needs to be avoidable, getting bursted without counterplay or getting spammed to death from pressure builds because you get more red numbers than green numbers are actually the real problems).

CC break is on the same GCD as skills. If the immediate skill after your CC (Fear, Incap, Reach) is Bow proc, then it's mathematically impossible for your target to CC break and dodge the incoming Will. I'm happy to test with you at the weekend, I'll log both stamblade and magblade and if you manage to dodge a single proc after eating the CC I'll be seriously impressed.

Feanor · March 2018

@Ragnaroek93

I rather reserve my Rune Cage CC for landing Meteor, but that’s personal preference. I find Rune Cage isn’t that much available in reality though. There is so much CC flying around (and more and more people use immo pots) that half of the opponents I target have Rune Cage grayed out because they are currently CC immune.

I‘m with @Maulkin though - small buffs don’t help that much. I’d much rather have the overhaul.

BohnT · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Never ever had a problem landing bow proc after an Incap or a Fear. What is this problem with landing Will you speak of?

The "problem" is CC break into rolldodge/block. (which is no problem at all because dmg needs to be avoidable, getting bursted without counterplay or getting spammed to death from pressure builds because you get more red numbers than green numbers are actually the real problems).

CC break is on the same GCD as skills. If the immediate skill after your CC (Fear, Incap, Reach) is Bow proc, then it's mathematically impossible for your target to CC break and dodge the incoming Will. I'm happy to test with you at the weekend, I'll log both stamblade and magblade and if you manage to dodge a single proc after eating the CC I'll be seriously impressed.

It's definitely possible with a proper functioning CC, incap and fear both have such buggy CCs that don't break fast enough to avoid the will.

Maulkin · March 2018

idk wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Besides the small point that Assassins Will has not been around anywhere near 4 years, the rest of your post is pretty accurate. They are similar in both are procs but the means to get there makes them totally different.

Though the runecage comment seems less relative to the conversation.

I don't know why we're conveniently forgetting that Assasin's Will gives near 100% uptime on Minor Berserk though. When the skill was added to the game it amped NB damage in PvE and PvP considerably. The proc itself itself might not have been as strong as Frags was due to difficulty proc'ing it, but the skill in total was. Now it's better in every conceivable way.

Ask me as a Sorc if I'd swap current Frags with Merciless. The answer is 100% f**K yes

Biro123 · March 2018

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

BohnT · March 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

I rather reserve my Rune Cage CC for landing Meteor, but that’s personal preference. I find Rune Cage isn’t that much available in reality though. There is so much CC flying around (and more and more people use immo pots) that half of the opponents I target have Rune Cage grayed out because they are currently CC immune.

I‘m with @Maulkin though - small buffs don’t help that much. I’d much rather have the overhaul.

I'm sorry but this sounds like something a zergling would say. Oh I can't cc him because a ally of mine already stunned him.
Also CC immunity potions aren't really that powerful anymore with the reduced duration

Feanor · March 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

Yes, the good ones definitely do. I have had opponents break Rune Cage the instant my casting animation finished. The average player in Cyro eats at least 2 seconds of it in my experience though.

BohnT · March 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

Then you failed to time it, you can get any skill to hit with rune cage due to it awesome delay. With proper timing your rune cage hits exactly 0.1 second before your frags which is impossible to break fast enough ;D

Xvorg · March 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

I rather reserve my Rune Cage CC for landing Meteor, but that’s personal preference. I find Rune Cage isn’t that much available in reality though. There is so much CC flying around (and more and more people use immo pots) that half of the opponents I target have Rune Cage grayed out because they are currently CC immune.

I‘m with @Maulkin though - small buffs don’t help that much. I’d much rather have the overhaul.

I miss Agony on my NB :'(

Regarding Frags, and based on what you say, I would keep the 10% extra dmg, but I'd bring back the stun. Then I'd make rune cage a stam skill, leaving defensive rune as a magicka skill.

Biro123 · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

Then you failed to time it, you can get any skill to hit with rune cage due to it awesome delay. With proper timing your rune cage hits exactly 0.1 second before your frags which is impossible to break fast enough ;D

Yeah, only really seen it happen at longer ranges, tbf.

BohnT · March 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

Then you failed to time it, you can get any skill to hit with rune cage due to it awesome delay. With proper timing your rune cage hits exactly 0.1 second before your frags which is impossible to break fast enough ;D

Yeah, only really seen it happen at longer ranges, tbf.

On really long range you cast frags first and then rune cage this almost always does the trick for me

Beardimus · March 2018

The triple nerf hit Frag hard, and hit Sorc hard. Only Noobs think Sorc are OP now and this subtle change had a huge effect.

Lose a skill slot to get a stun, and 20% too much of a nerf. So I concur, damage needs adding or another funky buff.

BohnT · March 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

The triple nerf hit Frag hard, and hit Sorc hard. Only Noobs think Sorc are OP now and this subtle change had a huge effect.

Lose a skill slot to get a stun, and 20% too much of a nerf. So I concur, damage needs adding or another funky buff.

Well that happens when both PvE and PvP complain about something for different reasons.
Granted Sorc was overperfoming back then but Zos simply fails to balance sorcs

Apherius · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The triple nerf hit Frag hard, and hit Sorc hard. Only Noobs think Sorc are OP now and this subtle change had a huge effect.

Lose a skill slot to get a stun, and 20% too much of a nerf. So I concur, damage needs adding or another funky buff.

Well that happens when both PvE and PvP complain about something for different reasons.
Granted Sorc was overperfoming back then but Zos simply fails to balance sorcs

People were complaining about Dark deal and shieldstacking, but they nerfed frag.

BohnT · March 2018

Apherius wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The triple nerf hit Frag hard, and hit Sorc hard. Only Noobs think Sorc are OP now and this subtle change had a huge effect.

Lose a skill slot to get a stun, and 20% too much of a nerf. So I concur, damage needs adding or another funky buff.

Well that happens when both PvE and PvP complain about something for different reasons.
Granted Sorc was overperfoming back then but Zos simply fails to balance sorcs

People were complaining about Dark deal and shieldstacking, but they nerfed frag.

Yeah it was like stamblades are atm:
Strong offence and stronger defence.
And they decided to nerf the offence to make it mediocre.

Also it would've been much better to nerf LL damage to balance sorc in pve rather than nerfing frag damage which hurts pvo

Feanor · March 2018

@BohnT

Sorcs aren’t top of the food chain in PvE either. They get one spot because they can still provide minor prophecy, minor intellect and some ranged AoE with concussion. Otherwise it’s stam boys and magNBs all the way.

Apherius · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The triple nerf hit Frag hard, and hit Sorc hard. Only Noobs think Sorc are OP now and this subtle change had a huge effect.

Lose a skill slot to get a stun, and 20% too much of a nerf. So I concur, damage needs adding or another funky buff.

Well that happens when both PvE and PvP complain about something for different reasons.
Granted Sorc was overperfoming back then but Zos simply fails to balance sorcs

People were complaining about Dark deal and shieldstacking, but they nerfed frag.

Yeah it was like stamblades are atm:
Strong offence and stronger defence.
And they decided to nerf the offence to make it mediocre.

Also it would've been much better to nerf LL damage to balance sorc in pve rather than nerfing frag damage which hurts pvo

don't give them the idea please ... a day they wil nerf LL to make choice interresting between LL and Lightning flood.

BohnT · March 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Sorcs aren’t top of the food chain in PvE either. They get one spot because they can still provide minor prophecy, minor intellect and some ranged AoE with concussion. Otherwise it’s stam boys and magNBs all the way.

I was talking about the time when you had a raid group like this: 7-8 pet sorc dds, 1 dk tank with engulfing, 0-1 off tanks (depending on the trial) 2 magplar healer

Feanor · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Sorcs aren’t top of the food chain in PvE either. They get one spot because they can still provide minor prophecy, minor intellect and some ranged AoE with concussion. Otherwise it’s stam boys and magNBs all the way.

I was talking about the time when you had a raid group like this: 7-8 pet sorc dds, 1 dk tank with engulfing, 0-1 off tanks (depending on the trial) 2 magplar healer

Homestead was ages though.

BohnT · March 2018

Apherius wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

The triple nerf hit Frag hard, and hit Sorc hard. Only Noobs think Sorc are OP now and this subtle change had a huge effect.

Lose a skill slot to get a stun, and 20% too much of a nerf. So I concur, damage needs adding or another funky buff.

Well that happens when both PvE and PvP complain about something for different reasons.
Granted Sorc was overperfoming back then but Zos simply fails to balance sorcs

People were complaining about Dark deal and shieldstacking, but they nerfed frag.

Yeah it was like stamblades are atm:
Strong offence and stronger defence.
And they decided to nerf the offence to make it mediocre.

Also it would've been much better to nerf LL damage to balance sorc in pve rather than nerfing frag damage which hurts pvo

don't give them the idea please ... a day they wil nerf LL to make choice interresting between LL and Lightning flood.

No worries do you really think wrobel reads the forums?

Seraphayel · March 2018

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Sorcs aren’t top of the food chain in PvE either. They get one spot because they can still provide minor prophecy, minor intellect and some ranged AoE with concussion. Otherwise it’s stam boys and magNBs all the way.

I was talking about the time when you had a raid group like this: 7-8 pet sorc dds, 1 dk tank with engulfing, 0-1 off tanks (depending on the trial) 2 magplar healer

Homestead was ages though.

Just one year ago. And not so long ago Magblades were abysmal compared to Sorcs.

BohnT · March 2018

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Sorcs aren’t top of the food chain in PvE either. They get one spot because they can still provide minor prophecy, minor intellect and some ranged AoE with concussion. Otherwise it’s stam boys and magNBs all the way.

I was talking about the time when you had a raid group like this: 7-8 pet sorc dds, 1 dk tank with engulfing, 0-1 off tanks (depending on the trial) 2 magplar healer

Homestead was ages though.

The nerfs happened in the patch after Homestead due to it being so op

Joy_Division · March 2018

Was nothing wrong with the skill to begin with.

And NBs shouldn't even begin to talk about how easy it is to proc Frags after the changes Zos made to Merciless.

Minalan · March 2018

I’ve been asking for this, but ZOS has ignored it.

They’ve all switched to nightblade mains. So **** them.

technohic · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

Then you failed to time it, you can get any skill to hit with rune cage due to it awesome delay. With proper timing your rune cage hits exactly 0.1 second before your frags which is impossible to break fast enough ;D

I’ve felt like if people see the animation of rune cage; they break free right ast it actually hits. Not that it matters in open world when people are spamming flame reach giving your target free CC immunity anyway.

But sign me up for a rework over buffs. I love the play style of sorc except the shield stacking.

BohnT · March 2018

technohic wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I've also seen people break free from runecage and dodge the frag

Then you failed to time it, you can get any skill to hit with rune cage due to it awesome delay. With proper timing your rune cage hits exactly 0.1 second before your frags which is impossible to break fast enough ;D

I’ve felt like if people see the animation of rune cage; they break free right ast it actually hits. Not that it matters in open world when people are spamming flame reach giving your target free CC immunity anyway.

When your frags/ meteor are timed right there is no time for counterplay events if they manage to break free

Maulkin · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Sorcs aren’t top of the food chain in PvE either. They get one spot because they can still provide minor prophecy, minor intellect and some ranged AoE with concussion. Otherwise it’s stam boys and magNBs all the way.

I was talking about the time when you had a raid group like this: 7-8 pet sorc dds, 1 dk tank with engulfing, 0-1 off tanks (depending on the trial) 2 magplar healer

Homestead was ages though.

Just one year ago. And not so long ago Magblades were abysmal compared to Sorcs.

And before that MagBlades were much better than Sorc. I remember 1 DK and 10 NBs in the trials when Funnel +Sap was giving such insane heals that no healer was needed. Let's not have selective memory.

BohnT wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Never ever had a problem landing bow proc after an Incap or a Fear. What is this problem with landing Will you speak of?

The "problem" is CC break into rolldodge/block. (which is no problem at all because dmg needs to be avoidable, getting bursted without counterplay or getting spammed to death from pressure builds because you get more red numbers than green numbers are actually the real problems).

CC break is on the same GCD as skills. If the immediate skill after your CC (Fear, Incap, Reach) is Bow proc, then it's mathematically impossible for your target to CC break and dodge the incoming Will. I'm happy to test with you at the weekend, I'll log both stamblade and magblade and if you manage to dodge a single proc after eating the CC I'll be seriously impressed.

It's definitely possible with a proper functioning CC, incap and fear both have such buggy CCs that don't break fast enough to avoid the will.

I don't think Incap CC is buggy. But even if that was the case, the argument that Will can be dodged while Frag can't doesn't hold if both CCs used by NBs are causing longer-than-normal CC breaks.

Care to test with me in a controlled environment? Are you PC EU?

Emma_Overload · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Right. I'll try to post a serious post.

My fully buffed (infused weapon damage enchant proc + Major Sorcery) tooltip for Frags is around 15k. 10% of that is 1500.
Remove 50% due to Battle Spirit and it's 750. Add armor mitigation, occasional maims etc and the average damage we're talking about with a 10% buff is ~500 give or take.

That's neither here, nor there. As a Sorc it leaves me indifferent. It's not changing anything really. The skill didn't deserve a damage nerf but now they gone and done it and ZOS never back out of a change, they usually go tweak something else entirely.

I'm still on the camp that would like to see a rework of some Sorc abilities to shake up the meta. NB, DK, Templar had many skills redesigned from their original versions. Beam, Grim Focus, Flames of Oblivion, gap-closing chains, Petrify, Malevolent Offering. All that stuff did no exist in the game at release. They've done a lot of rework to a lot of the classes, but only thing they've done to Sorcs since lauch is tweak numbers and nerf/buff skills. Result is the same meta as 3-4 years ago more or less. All "builds" playing the same.

That's not quite true. They backed out of the Haunting Curse nerf, in fact, it kind of ended up as a buff, LOL. The first time Sorcs caught a break in 3 years!

Feanor · March 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Right. I'll try to post a serious post.

My fully buffed (infused weapon damage enchant proc + Major Sorcery) tooltip for Frags is around 15k. 10% of that is 1500.
Remove 50% due to Battle Spirit and it's 750. Add armor mitigation, occasional maims etc and the average damage we're talking about with a 10% buff is ~500 give or take.

That's neither here, nor there. As a Sorc it leaves me indifferent. It's not changing anything really. The skill didn't deserve a damage nerf but now they gone and done it and ZOS never back out of a change, they usually go tweak something else entirely.

I'm still on the camp that would like to see a rework of some Sorc abilities to shake up the meta. NB, DK, Templar had many skills redesigned from their original versions. Beam, Grim Focus, Flames of Oblivion, gap-closing chains, Petrify, Malevolent Offering. All that stuff did no exist in the game at release. They've done a lot of rework to a lot of the classes, but only thing they've done to Sorcs since lauch is tweak numbers and nerf/buff skills. Result is the same meta as 3-4 years ago more or less. All "builds" playing the same.

That's not quite true. They backed out of the Haunting Curse nerf, in fact, it kind of ended up as a buff, LOL. The first time Sorcs caught a break in 3 years!

The buff that no one ever wanted. It’s debatable too - the echo 12.5 seconds later doesn’t matter that often in PvP because fights are over way before that most times (technically it’s a buff sure, as the damage is „free“).

Maulkin · March 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Right. I'll try to post a serious post.

My fully buffed (infused weapon damage enchant proc + Major Sorcery) tooltip for Frags is around 15k. 10% of that is 1500.
Remove 50% due to Battle Spirit and it's 750. Add armor mitigation, occasional maims etc and the average damage we're talking about with a 10% buff is ~500 give or take.

That's neither here, nor there. As a Sorc it leaves me indifferent. It's not changing anything really. The skill didn't deserve a damage nerf but now they gone and done it and ZOS never back out of a change, they usually go tweak something else entirely.

I'm still on the camp that would like to see a rework of some Sorc abilities to shake up the meta. NB, DK, Templar had many skills redesigned from their original versions. Beam, Grim Focus, Flames of Oblivion, gap-closing chains, Petrify, Malevolent Offering. All that stuff did no exist in the game at release. They've done a lot of rework to a lot of the classes, but only thing they've done to Sorcs since lauch is tweak numbers and nerf/buff skills. Result is the same meta as 3-4 years ago more or less. All "builds" playing the same.

That's not quite true. They backed out of the Haunting Curse nerf, in fact, it kind of ended up as a buff, LOL. The first time Sorcs caught a break in 3 years!

Mmm. Which one? Initially all AoEs in the game were unblockable. Then they made all of them blockable, but ground AoEs (Caltrops and Blockade for example) were eating up stamina from block builds. So they made ground AoEs unblockable. Then they decided target placed effects should not be blockable which was a change that affected a few skills like Curse, PotL etc. So it's gone through a circle of being unblockable, blockable and unblockable again. But that was as a result of changes to AoEs in general, not the skill specificly.

Techincally, I don't think they have nerfed Curse directly. In fact, they buffed it by adding the double explosion. Unless there's something I don't remember?