Bring back C-Frags 20% additional damage.

Pelican

So back in HotR or Morrowind, C-Frags bonus damage got reduced from 20% to 10% because it was overperforming. But ever since the stun from C-Frags got removed in Clockwork City patch I feel that magsorcs should have back the original 20% additional damage for C-Frags. Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder. The 20% additional C-Frags damage would definitely help magsorcs out, both PvP and PvE, without hurting balance at all. What do you guys think?

Maulkin

Nerf Sorc

WildWilbur

Pelican wrote: »

Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder.

You seriously compare a skill you use instant to a skill that needs five light attacks to pull off? Really??

technohic

WildWilbur wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder.

You seriously compare a skill you use instant to a skill that needs five light attacks to pull off? Really??

C frags proc percentage is about the same as 5 attacks. It can happen more often or it can not happen far less due to its RNG element

Pelican

technohic wrote: »

WildWilbur wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder.

You seriously compare a skill you use instant to a skill that needs five light attacks to pull off? Really??

C frags proc percentage is about the same as 5 attacks. It can happen more often or it can not happen far less due to its RNG element

^

Azurya

Pelican wrote: »

So back in HotR or Morrowind, C-Frags bonus damage got reduced from 20% to 10% because it was overperforming. But ever since the stun from C-Frags got removed in Clockwork City patch I feel that magsorcs should have back the original 20% additional damage for C-Frags. Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder. The 20% additional C-Frags damage would definitely help magsorcs out, both PvP and PvE, without hurting balance at all. What do you guys think?

thinking this is a bit to much!
still getting killed in cyro by this skill and think it needs a workover to reduce that dmg-output, because it is certainly not thought at as an execute, but it functions like one NOW!!!

nerf it, and nerf it thoroughly!

Seraphayel

The skill is still super powerful. If they reduce the proc chance to 20% they can increase the damage again.

technohic

Azurya wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

So back in HotR or Morrowind, C-Frags bonus damage got reduced from 20% to 10% because it was overperforming. But ever since the stun from C-Frags got removed in Clockwork City patch I feel that magsorcs should have back the original 20% additional damage for C-Frags. Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder. The 20% additional C-Frags damage would definitely help magsorcs out, both PvP and PvE, without hurting balance at all. What do you guys think?

thinking this is a bit to much!
still getting killed in cyro by this skill and think it needs a workover to reduce that dmg-output, because it is certainly not thought at as an execute, but it functions like one NOW!!!

nerf it, and nerf it thoroughly!

There we have it. Someone died to it so it needs nerfed.

Apherius

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is still super powerful. If they reduce the proc chance to 20% they can increase the damage again.

yeah, super powerful, this is why some engame PVE sorc ( with pet ) use clench instead.

Seraphayel

Apherius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is still super powerful. If they reduce the proc chance to 20% they can increase the damage again.

yeah, super powerful, this is why some engame PVE sorc use clench instead.

There's more than DPS dummy parses. If we go by that 90% of all skills are useless.

Apherius

Seraphayel wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is still super powerful. If they reduce the proc chance to 20% they can increase the damage again.

yeah, super powerful, this is why some engame PVE sorc use clench instead.

There's more than DPS dummy parses. If we go by that 90% of all skills are useless.

I said dummy ? nop. Read my sentence again.

BohnT

Azurya wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

So back in HotR or Morrowind, C-Frags bonus damage got reduced from 20% to 10% because it was overperforming. But ever since the stun from C-Frags got removed in Clockwork City patch I feel that magsorcs should have back the original 20% additional damage for C-Frags. Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder. The 20% additional C-Frags damage would definitely help magsorcs out, both PvP and PvE, without hurting balance at all. What do you guys think?

thinking this is a bit to much!
still getting killed in cyro by this skill and think it needs a workover to reduce that dmg-output, because it is certainly not thought at as an execute, but it functions like one NOW!!!

nerf it, and nerf it thoroughly!

Please just stop talking about balance.
You simply don't have an insight on balance as you are just zerging all day, getting one shotted by low damage builds and always over extending.
Play all classes for 1 month each and then come back to the forums and maybe then you can start discussing here

technohic

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is still super powerful. If they reduce the proc chance to 20% they can increase the damage again.

I could agree with this thought in that it then would hit like merciless resolve at theoretically the same rate. The RNG part of it makes it tough either way

I also cannot imagine the whining if we try to make sorc like NB. Already a stir about NBs as it is and sorcs tend to trigger people even more

ak_pvp

Yeah. Do it.

Biro123

I think at its current damage, with no stun, - the proc should be triggerable from the off-bar too.

Cos really, if you're on your back-bar half the time - then that 30% proc change is really more like 15% over time...

Ragnaroek93

technohic wrote: »

WildWilbur wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder.

You seriously compare a skill you use instant to a skill that needs five light attacks to pull off? Really??

C frags proc percentage is about the same as 5 attacks. It can happen more often or it can not happen far less due to its RNG element

That's the point with it. You can't use 3 Assassin Wills in 6 seconds. It would be extremely unbalanced if you actually could, even if the proc chance for that would be low.

Not saying that frags couldn't use a buff, would like to have a stun on it again to not be forced into that silly master staff.

LegendaryMage

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

WildWilbur wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder.

You seriously compare a skill you use instant to a skill that needs five light attacks to pull off? Really??

C frags proc percentage is about the same as 5 attacks. It can happen more often or it can not happen far less due to its RNG element

That's the point with it. You can't use 3 Assassin Wills in 6 seconds. It would be extremely unbalanced if you actually could, even if the proc chance for that would be low.

Not saying that frags couldn't use a buff, would like to have a stun on it again to not be forced into that silly master staff.

Stop trying to buff things, every time something gets nerfed as a result.

Maulkin

Seraphayel wrote: »

The skill is still super powerful. If they reduce the proc chance to 20% they can increase the damage again.

A 20% proc chance, with that being 0% while on the off-bar, would see it proc less frequently than Merciless Resolve.

I'm actually down for that change, reduce it to 20% and buff the damage by about 50% to be on par with Merciless. And make it put a snare on your target like Merciless too . And give an 8% buff to all damage while slotted. Sounds good to me

Feanor

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

Pelican

eh i dont think theres anything wrong with the way the skill works or its damage. just feel like 10% more damage on the proc is a small change that helps make skill more reliable without triggering everyone.

Pelican

and frags have its advantages over assassin's will but i think a slight damage increase will make both skills more equal overall

Apherius

As said @Aedaryl on another thread about that, the crystal frag should apply Off-balance, it's match perfectly with the sound/animation.
but with the changements to off balance ... i wonder if this solution remains viable.

Anyway, they need to change the crystal and make both morph interesting.
increase the damage to 20% like it used to be ? Make it apply a debuff ( off balance, snare, shattered armor) ? Make it reduce the cost of the next skill also ? This could deal damage to all nearest target ? give a buff to the allies ? Maybe this could work like a boomrang ... ? This could apply a dot ( not bleed damage ).
They can do so much ... here is an example:

Crystal ~~ : Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage, fragments remains in the target during X second dealing X magic damage per second and if you incant a crystal during this time you will attract the target to you
Casting any other Magicka ability has a 35 % chance of causing your next crystal fragments to be instant, deal 10% more damage, and cost 50% less magicka.

Crystal ~~: [...] Fragments remains in the target and drain X magicka per second [...]

Crystal ~~: [...] Conjure dark crystal to protect an ally [...] ( then this could heal the ally over time or give a buff, once the effect end, the protection would explode and fragments from this protection could turn arround neares ally and give a less powerful buff/heal over time )

Crystal ~~: [...] has a 35% chance of causing your next crystal fragments to be instant, deal 10% more damage, and cost 50% less magicka, if you don't bombard the enemy with this instant crystal fragments ... these fragments will turn arround you and deal damage over time to all enemy in the area ( 5 meters area ? )

The skill should work differently if you choose to INCANT it or KEEP THE PROC. Currently we have the choice between " Potatoe " and " Proc " , sometimes your are stuck while incanting this potatoe ... sometimes you miss the proc.
During this time merciless resolve keep in memory the light and heavy attack you did so if you make a mistake this don't matter.

idk

WildWilbur wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder.

You seriously compare a skill you use instant to a skill that needs five light attacks to pull off? Really??

Technically it is not an instant skill. It requires a proc for the instant cast which merely has a chance to obtain the proc that is almost the same as the attack he compares it to. This comparison has been made before and it is a decent comparison. Not suggesting frags should be changed back though.

Azurya

Apherius wrote: »

As said @Aedaryl on another thread about that, the crystal frag should apply Off-balance, it's match perfectly with the sound/animation.
but with the changements to off balance ... i wonder if this solution remains viable.

Anyway, they need to change the crystal and make both morph interesting.
increase the damage to 20% like it used to be ? Make it apply a debuff ( off balance, snare, shattered armor) ? Make it reduce the cost of the next skill also ? This could deal damage to all nearest target ? give a buff to the allies ? Maybe this could work like a boomrang ... ? This could apply a dot ( not bleed damage ).
They can do so much ... here is an example:

Crystal ~~ : Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage, fragments remains in the target during X second dealing X magic damage per second and if you incant a crystal during this time you will attract the target to you
Casting any other Magicka ability has a 35 % chance of causing your next crystal fragments to be instant, deal 10% more damage, and cost 50% less magicka.

Crystal ~~: [...] Fragments remains in the target and drain X magicka per second [...]

Crystal ~~: [...] Conjure dark crystal to protect an ally [...] ( then this could heal the ally over time or give a buff, once the effect end, the protection would explode and fragments from this protection could turn arround neares ally and give a less powerful buff/heal over time )

Crystal ~~: [...] has a 35% chance of causing your next crystal fragments to be instant, deal 10% more damage, and cost 50% less magicka, if you don't bombard the enemy with this instant crystal fragments ... these fragments will turn arround you and deal damage over time to all enemy in the area ( 5 meters area ? )

this...
and can we have then all NERFS ever to other classes reverted as well?
Just to be not a hypocrit, and therefor I await support from all who support the make-frags-OP-once-again-thread here!

ak_pvp

I'd say honestly make it both bar proc, back to 20% and maybe stun. (Maybe put the stun on curse, so it timed stuns, change rune to be stam focused.)

Maulkin

Right. I'll try to post a serious post.

My fully buffed (infused weapon damage enchant proc + Major Sorcery) tooltip for Frags is around 15k. 10% of that is 1500.
Remove 50% due to Battle Spirit and it's 750. Add armor mitigation, occasional maims etc and the average damage we're talking about with a 10% buff is ~500 give or take.

That's neither here, nor there. As a Sorc it leaves me indifferent. It's not changing anything really. The skill didn't deserve a damage nerf but now they gone and done it and ZOS never back out of a change, they usually go tweak something else entirely.

I'm still on the camp that would like to see a rework of some Sorc abilities to shake up the meta. NB, DK, Templar had many skills redesigned from their original versions. Beam, Grim Focus, Flames of Oblivion, gap-closing chains, Petrify, Malevolent Offering. All that stuff did no exist in the game at release. They've done a lot of rework to a lot of the classes, but only thing they've done to Sorcs since lauch is tweak numbers and nerf/buff skills. Result is the same meta as 3-4 years ago more or less. All "builds" playing the same.

Ragnaroek93

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Maulkin

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Never ever had a problem landing bow proc after an Incap or a Fear. What is this problem with landing Will you speak of?

Apherius

Azurya wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

As said @Aedaryl on another thread about that, the crystal frag should apply Off-balance, it's match perfectly with the sound/animation.
but with the changements to off balance ... i wonder if this solution remains viable.

Anyway, they need to change the crystal and make both morph interesting.
increase the damage to 20% like it used to be ? Make it apply a debuff ( off balance, snare, shattered armor) ? Make it reduce the cost of the next skill also ? This could deal damage to all nearest target ? give a buff to the allies ? Maybe this could work like a boomrang ... ? This could apply a dot ( not bleed damage ).
They can do so much ... here is an example:

Crystal ~~ : Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage, fragments remains in the target during X second dealing X magic damage per second and if you incant a crystal during this time you will attract the target to you
Casting any other Magicka ability has a 35 % chance of causing your next crystal fragments to be instant, deal 10% more damage, and cost 50% less magicka.

Crystal ~~: [...] Fragments remains in the target and drain X magicka per second [...]

Crystal ~~: [...] Conjure dark crystal to protect an ally [...] ( then this could heal the ally over time or give a buff, once the effect end, the protection would explode and fragments from this protection could turn arround neares ally and give a less powerful buff/heal over time )

Crystal ~~: [...] has a 35% chance of causing your next crystal fragments to be instant, deal 10% more damage, and cost 50% less magicka, if you don't bombard the enemy with this instant crystal fragments ... these fragments will turn arround you and deal damage over time to all enemy in the area ( 5 meters area ? )

this...
and can we have then all NERFS ever to other classes reverted as well?
Just to be not a hypocrit, and therefor I await support from all who support the make-frags-OP-once-again-thread here!

It's not about making the frag OP, it's about making it a true main class ability.

idk

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Besides the small point that Assassins Will has not been around anywhere near 4 years, the rest of your post is pretty accurate. They are similar in both are procs but the means to get there makes them totally different.

Though the runecage comment seems less relative to the conversation.

Ragnaroek93

Maulkin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93

Assassin‘s Will is actually better with the recent changes because you can hold the burst for eternity (going out of combat means disengaging for quite some time in Cyrodiil). That means your burst is ready whenever you have the window. Frags can proc at all times, but you have no control over it, and you can only hold it for 8 seconds. There might or might not be a burst window.

That’s aside from frags being the far inferior projectile due to speed and visibility.

@Azurya

If you’re getting killed by frags as Nightblade in 2018 it’s certainly not because the skill is so strong.

I don't disagree that Assassins Will is currently better (after it was worse for almost 4 years :P ) but the major difference is that Assassins Will has a forced cooldown while Frags has "only" a soft cooldown based on RNG. When I played sorc active I got most kills when I got lucky and had several frag procs in a row (it doesn't matter that much how often that happens, it matters that it can happen). If you want frags to deal similar damage to Assassins Will then you need to give a it a forced cooldown as well.

Also you can force a frag hit with Runecage while you have enough time for a CC break and dodge Assassins Will.

Never ever had a problem landing bow proc after an Incap or a Fear. What is this problem with landing Will you speak of?

The "problem" is CC break into rolldodge/block. (which is no problem at all because dmg needs to be avoidable, getting bursted without counterplay or getting spammed to death from pressure builds because you get more red numbers than green numbers are actually the real problems).