Give Cloak stacking cost

ManDraKE · March 2018

cloak isn't completelty broken for the first time in 2 years, and now people ask for nerfs ahhaa

get lost. Slot and Aoe on your bar and problem solved.

Maryal · March 2018

MNBs and SNBs are two very opposite sides of the NB class and are played very differently from one another ... very different skill sets, stats, and play styles ... they even train their cloak-button trigger-fingers very differently. This shouldn't come as new information to most of you.

So, when it comes to threads calling to nerf cloak, why is it that MNBs and SNBs keep getting lumped together as if they were one-in-the-same ... especially when it comes to using cloak?

Consider this: What's the first word or set of words that come to mind when hearing the phrase: "cloak spamming"?

For most of you, it's probably this: 'cloak spamming' ----> 'night blade.' (not MNB, not SNB ... just 'NB').

Nerf Cloak! The knee-jerk reaction many of you have after a round of nightblade inflicted butthurt is to start up or join a forum thread for a round of Cyrodiil's version of 'Burn the Witch' ... you know, where a bunch of peasants get together mindlessly cheering each other on to agree with something they obviously know little about, ignoring any logical or factual point to the contrary. The game is easy to play, start by watching the video (below) and replace the word 'witch' with 'night-blade' and replace the word 'burn' with 'nerf' and carry it on from there! With so many forum threads on topic, even a beginner can gain pro status in no time!

Happy witch (errr, night blade) hunting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

lazerlaz · March 2018

Literally 3-4 cloaks as a stamblade in PvP. 4 in a row if you time it right and regen enough magic with 600-800 mag recovery. Then you have tri stat pots. Not to mention your baby mag pool is shared with fear and mark.

It's crap, total crap, and y'all crying it's too much.

The reality is you're being outplayed by better players.

del9 · March 2018

So many NBs defending their cheese so hard. You can get outplayed 4 times, reset the fight 4 times, and then go to other parts of your overperforming toolkit to secure a kill.

[Edit for bait]

kypranb14_ESO · March 2018

technohic wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).

Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).

Greetings

Sure, right after we give a stacking cost to wards. lol

Take it easy. You’re basically suggesting “so long as we double nerf magblades “

I actually play a PVP Magblade without wards, so...

Millz · March 2018

Thank you for this thread and the lol's everyone. I agree w this also would like to see a reduction in ritual of retribution cleanses and or the "streak treatment"

Millz · March 2018

certain things in this game should have more tactical and critical decision making behind them. Streak, cloak, ritual, shimmering shield, dragon wings etc..

gepe87 · March 2018

Don't worry NB, if cloak gets nerfed you can use invisibility potion like det potion is our counter to you

Jhalin · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

To be able to cloak indefinitely you have to use 2 regen sets + 1p regen monster set, magicka cost reduction on the jewelry, atronach mundus and one of the races with +mag regen or -mag cost, and at that point your top dps will be 8k (and yes, I actually made a build like that for giggles). Permacloaking is not a thing since Morrowind if you don't sacrifice literally everything else for it, in which case it better work. On my stamblade I can't cast cloak more than twice before running OOM, which gives a grand total of 5.8 seconds of invisibility if you time it down to a microsecond and have 0 latency.

So no, cloak doesn't need any nerfs.

That's complete nonsense, sorry.

I was farming Rattlecage weapons on my MageBlade, going solo in Vaults of Madness and I could go from first boss to Grothdarr in Cloak in my full damage build. That's like 2 mins of cloaking non stop in Julianos, Infallible Aether and Skoria with only damage glyphs on jewellery.

Lmfao

No one's talking about magblades here. OP is claiming you can permacloak on stamblade, which is just objectively untrue.

At best you can cloak five times, and that's out of combat and with as careful timing as possible. Given that half those casts will be still be broken by errant AoEs, or useless because of detection pots or Mage Light, it's hardly OP.

Elijah_Crow · March 2018

No. Just no.

Elijah_Crow · March 2018

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Reality check for @idk .
You do realize that OP is one of the best stamblades on PC EU right? He's not a player 'who is challenged to use the counter to cloak', he's a player that has played stamblade long enough to know how overpowered cloak spam is on a STAMINA nightblade.

You fools realize that OP can cloak 20 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) times in a row, right? How can people even defend this, cloak needs a massive nerf for the stamina part of the nightblade class, period.

20 times in a row, huh? Try 3-4 if you're a true stamblade and not some kind of hybrid. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone in this debate.

I’ve been a stamina Nightblade since launch. Ive worked my build to have enough magicka to cloak 3 times, potion, and then three more. Sometimes it takes 6 attempts to actually get out of combat. Sometimes you never do. It’s fine as is.

WhoThenNow7 · March 2018

Subversus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Reality check for @idk .
You do realize that OP is one of the best stamblades on PC EU right? He's not a player 'who is challenged to use the counter to cloak', he's a player that has played stamblade long enough to know how overpowered cloak spam is on a STAMINA nightblade.

You fools realize that OP can cloak 20 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) times in a row, right? How can people even defend this, cloak needs a massive nerf for the stamina part of the nightblade class, period.

I would really like to see a video of a stamina nightblade cloaking 20x in a row and then show the gear and character stat sheet. Thanks.

IAVITNI · March 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Yeah, giving Cloak a stacking cost is for sure the dumbest idea in the whole forum... Looking forward to see you complaining in 3 months when Nbs get nerfed. And don't be surprised if they nerf the wrong things. Magsorcs also defended shieldstacking and skelly pirate over months and what happened? Everything from magsorc was nerfed instead of nerfing the right things. Stamdks also defended Redguard, vitality potions and heavy armor... look up what happened to stamdks. Not saying that Cloak is on the same level as heavy armor + vit pots were or skelly pirate sorc with 3 shields was but it's not balanced either.

As a Magsorc main, the stacking cost isn't that bad. Slightly too much, 25% would be better imo. I'd fully support the 50% if it wasn't for the excessive and overpowered amount of snares but that's for a magsorc thread.

One little nitpick, those who actually understood magsorc mechanics and truly mained the class did not really defend shield stacking. The defence of shield stacking was that a nerf to Harness should be tested first before actually nerfing shield stacking. That or nerfing shield stacking would require defence buffs in other areas etc. Can't recall a single logical argument for pirate skeleton though xD

In the same line of thought, I don't think a stacking cost should be the first balance pass. Bumping the costs worked for Templar purge (imo). If stacking costs is implemented, the duration of shadow barrier would need to be increased significantly and changing Malevolent Offering into a viable healing skill.

My personal favourite would be to increase the base duration of cloak to 5 seconds and having each use decrease cloak duration by 1 second for 8-10 seconds (actual debuff duration would need testing of course). This change would reward proper use of cloak and punish those that abuse the skill.

Mojomonkeyman · March 2018

The mental gymnastics people in this thread are doing to defend cloak are hilarious. As a stamsorc, I can see no reason why cloak doesnt deserve the same treatment as streak. Making your opponent lose target is more powerful than mobility in the first place (even without all the addiditional crazy perks).

I mean, I can streak once (1x, one time) with a damage focused stamsorc build in no cp bgs, then I have to wait a second for being able to streak again... Again: one streak. Meanwhile, stamblades are spamming back to back cloaks as soon as someone's sneezing at them. Why on earth should that be possible?

ak_pvp · March 2018

ManDraKE wrote: »

cloak isn't completelty broken for the first time in 2 years, and now people ask for nerfs ahhaa

get lost. Slot and Aoe on your bar and problem solved.

Make AoEs cheaper then. If I use spikes, its 4k down the drain, and not even a guarantee that it will discloak them because a stamblade has much more mobility than most builds. And if I do discloak them, what happens? Straight back in.

Remove detect pots though. They are like a cloak shieldbreaker.

Wrubius_Coronaria · March 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

The mental gymnastics people in this thread are doing to defend cloak are hilarious. As a stamsorc, I can see no reason why cloak doesnt deserve the same treatment as streak. Making your opponent lose target is more powerful than mobility in the first place (even without all the addiditional crazy perks).

I mean, I can streak once (1x, one time) with a damage focused stamsorc build in no cp bgs, then I have to wait a second for being able to streak again... Again: one streak. Meanwhile, stamblades are spamming back to back cloaks as soon as someone's sneezing at them. Why on earth should that be possible?

Your comparison is not complete and objective.

Cloak is useless when you are snared, revealed with detect potion, mageglight, many set (yes there is severals sets for reveal stealth players), or put of cloak by any aoe, or even by yourself. (cast a light attack agaisnt someone put you of cloak, it's very funny...), but also with bugs.
(I don't mention piercing mark, because only the player who used it can see you when you use cloak)

This skill does not help for disengage the fight in the conditions metionned above. Honestly, it's not powerfull as many players think in this thread. Shadow image only is more usefull than cloak for break the line of sight and disengage a fight.

Sreak (or bolt escape) can be used when you are snared, rooted and with that, stun your opponent. They are quite different, you can't compare them and write that cloak is overpowered, especially with all the counter we have in game already.

A nerf of cloak would be a disaster to nightblades, and how the class is designed. (high mobility and invisibility)

Mojomonkeyman · March 2018

Caitsith wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

The mental gymnastics people in this thread are doing to defend cloak are hilarious. As a stamsorc, I can see no reason why cloak doesnt deserve the same treatment as streak. Making your opponent lose target is more powerful than mobility in the first place (even without all the addiditional crazy perks).

I mean, I can streak once (1x, one time) with a damage focused stamsorc build in no cp bgs, then I have to wait a second for being able to streak again... Again: one streak. Meanwhile, stamblades are spamming back to back cloaks as soon as someone's sneezing at them. Why on earth should that be possible?

Your comparison is not complete and objective.

Cloak is useless when you are snared, revealed with detect potion, mageglight, many set (yes there is severals sets for reveal stealth players), or put of cloak by any aoe, or even by yourself. (cast a light attack agaisnt someone put you of cloak, it's very funny...), but also with bugs.
(I don't mention piercing mark, because only the player who used it can see you when you use cloak)

This skill does not help for disengage the fight in the conditions metionned above. Honestly, it's not powerfull as many players think in this thread. Shadow image only is more usefull than cloak for break the line of sight and disengage a fight.

Sreak (or bolt escape) can be used when you are snared, rooted and with that, stun your opponent. They are quite different, you can't compare them and write that cloak is overpowered, especially with all the counter we have in game already.

A nerf of cloak would be a disaster to nightblades, and how the class is designed. (high mobility and invisibility)

No, it would just punish bad and mediocre NBs when they should get punished. You can still do your moves but you would have think about it when playing. Its too easy now, too braindead, too much burden on the opponent to reveal cloak instead of burden on nb to play smart.

It's simply badly designed compared to games I played before (rogue in wow, thief in gw2). Either punishing opponents too hard when not being hardcountered or being close to useless when hardcountered. But apart from detect potions (which I refuse to apply since day 1 - cuz terrible game design), the other accessible counters are getting less and/or less useful and cloak is getting "fixed" as bit more from patch to patch.

Where is the end of this, when is cloak being considered "fixed" by NBs? From my non-NB/daily PvP point of view, cloak always was and still is the single best performing survival mechanic that has the overall highest probability of allowing players to come out alive of unfavorable situations across all abilities in the game, including ultimates. Its performing excellent from a meta def skill comparison pov. Far too good actually.

Datthaw · March 2018

del9 wrote: »

So many NBs defending their cheese so hard. You can get outplayed 4 times, reset the fight 4 times, and then go to other parts of your overperforming toolkit to secure a kill.

I'f you are a NB complaining about this threat go home, you are a little ***

Aww did someone get ganked?

Datthaw · March 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Caitsith wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

The mental gymnastics people in this thread are doing to defend cloak are hilarious. As a stamsorc, I can see no reason why cloak doesnt deserve the same treatment as streak. Making your opponent lose target is more powerful than mobility in the first place (even without all the addiditional crazy perks).

I mean, I can streak once (1x, one time) with a damage focused stamsorc build in no cp bgs, then I have to wait a second for being able to streak again... Again: one streak. Meanwhile, stamblades are spamming back to back cloaks as soon as someone's sneezing at them. Why on earth should that be possible?

Your comparison is not complete and objective.

Cloak is useless when you are snared, revealed with detect potion, mageglight, many set (yes there is severals sets for reveal stealth players), or put of cloak by any aoe, or even by yourself. (cast a light attack agaisnt someone put you of cloak, it's very funny...), but also with bugs.
(I don't mention piercing mark, because only the player who used it can see you when you use cloak)

This skill does not help for disengage the fight in the conditions metionned above. Honestly, it's not powerfull as many players think in this thread. Shadow image only is more usefull than cloak for break the line of sight and disengage a fight.

Sreak (or bolt escape) can be used when you are snared, rooted and with that, stun your opponent. They are quite different, you can't compare them and write that cloak is overpowered, especially with all the counter we have in game already.

A nerf of cloak would be a disaster to nightblades, and how the class is designed. (high mobility and invisibility)

No, it would just punish bad and mediocre NBs when they should get punished. You can still do your moves but you would have think about it when playing. Its too easy now, too braindead, too much burden on the opponent to reveal cloak instead of burden on nb to play smart.

It's simply badly designed compared to games I played before (rogue in wow, thief in gw2). Either punishing opponents too hard when not being hardcountered or being close to useless when hardcountered. But apart from detect potions (which I refuse to apply since day 1 - cuz terrible game design), the other accessible counters are getting less and/or less useful and cloak is getting "fixed" as bit more from patch to patch.

Where is the end of this, when is cloak being considered "fixed" by NBs? From my non-NB/daily PvP point of view, cloak always was and still is the single best performing survival mechanic that has the overall highest probability of allowing players to come out alive of unfavorable situations across all abilities in the game, including ultimates. Its performing excellent from a meta def skill comparison pov. Far too good actually.

So let me get this right, you say cloak is op and needs a nerf, but refuse to use the easiest counter to it in detect pots? Nah dude it's not our fault you refuse to use the one very easilly obtainable on any class hard counter to cloak.

Feanor · March 2018

I have acknowledged that NBs will not get nerfs at this point. It’s just unrealistic. Instead of arguing anymore I have taken to feeding them their own medicine. Empowered Meteor into a well timed Rune Cage from sneak is really fun - I’ll even make sure you won’t cloak it. Delicious. Next step is playing a NB of both varieties myself. Need a few skill points, chars are already geared. If you can’t nerf em, join them.

Ectheliontnacil · March 2018

The common 2h/ bow setup that most openworld stamblades use is good for slaying pugs, but that's it really. In many ways stamblades are similar to magicka sorcs: Both have access to easy burst, but they lack sustained pressure. They have great mobility and are often able to escape from tricky situations. But in 1v1s these kinds of setups underperform. Here their burst doesn't one shot opponents and since they lack pressure (sorc) or tankiness and healing (nb) they are ultimately at a disadvantage against experienced players.

My point here is that the stamblade playstyle (and magblade too actually...its not true that magblades perform well openworld without cloak) is centered around evasion, while the dks for example are centered around mitigation. "Mitigation/Healing based builds" perform better in scenarios where incoming damage is moderate as they can stay alive WHILE dealing damage themselves (1v1, 1v2 mostly but against pugs it is possible to tank a very large number of opponents). Evasive and highly mobile burst builds are better in scenarios where the incoming damage is too high to outheal, because they are able to avoid damage, spread out their opponents and take them down separately with one well timed combo. But one isn't better than the other. I wouldn't ever want to duel a good magdk or templar with my stamblade and I wouldn't ever want to burst a scroll carrier with my magdk. A

If you want to nerf cloak into oblivion, the nightblade class would need to be redesigned. It would need access to burst healing, cleanses, major protection, 60% dodge chance or sth else. This would only serve to generalise all classes and would further pronounce the tank meta we see nowadays. I know stamblades can be annoying if they run away from 1v1s but that is no reason to destroy one of the few classes that is still genuinely enjoyable in pvp.

And if anything deserves a nerf right now, it is zaan.

idk · March 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

The mental gymnastics people in this thread are doing to defend cloak are hilarious. As a stamsorc, I can see no reason why cloak doesnt deserve the same treatment as streak. Making your opponent lose target is more powerful than mobility in the first place (even without all the addiditional crazy perks).

I mean, I can streak once (1x, one time) with a damage focused stamsorc build in no cp bgs, then I have to wait a second for being able to streak again... Again: one streak. Meanwhile, stamblades are spamming back to back cloaks as soon as someone's sneezing at them. Why on earth should that be possible?

@Mojomonkeyman

The mental gymnastics is being perfumed by those who find it challenging to use the counters to cloak, which there are several.

Case in point is Subs comments that by all means appear to be completely false to an humorous degree in order to somehow falsly state cloak is to easy to use. I give you his statement below.

Subversus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Reality check for @idk .
You do realize that OP is one of the best stamblades on PC EU right? He's not a player 'who is challenged to use the counter to cloak', he's a player that has played stamblade long enough to know how overpowered cloak spam is on a STAMINA nightblade.

You fools realize that OP can cloak 20 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) times in a row, right? How can people even defend this, cloak needs a massive nerf for the stamina part of the nightblade class, period.

Further, you statement that you see no reason cloak should not get the same treatment as streak yet you really provide none. Streak operates extremely different than cloak. OMG, I laugh at those chasing me when using streak since their only counter is me running out of magicka.

Cloak, I can only hope I am not dealing the a decent player who can pull me out of stealth. Certainly not the fast escape streak is.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

The common 2h/ bow setup that most openworld stamblades use is good for slaying pugs, but that's it really. In many ways stamblades are similar to magicka sorcs: Both have access to easy burst, but they lack sustained pressure. They have great mobility and are often able to escape from tricky situations. But in 1v1s these kinds of setups underperform. Here their burst doesn't one shot opponents and since they lack pressure (sorc) or tankiness and healing (nb) they are ultimately at a disadvantage against experienced players.

My point here is that the stamblade playstyle (and magblade too actually...its not true that magblades perform well openworld without cloak) is centered around evasion, while the dks for example are centered around mitigation. "Mitigation/Healing based builds" perform better in scenarios where incoming damage is moderate as they can stay alive WHILE dealing damage themselves (1v1, 1v2 mostly but against pugs it is possible to tank a very large number of opponents). Evasive and highly mobile burst builds are better in scenarios where the incoming damage is too high to outheal, because they are able to avoid damage, spread out their opponents and take them down separately with one well timed combo. But one isn't better than the other. I wouldn't ever want to duel a good magdk or templar with my stamblade and I wouldn't ever want to burst a scroll carrier with my magdk. A

If you want to nerf cloak into oblivion, the nightblade class would need to be redesigned. It would need access to burst healing, cleanses, major protection, 60% dodge chance or sth else. This would only serve to generalise all classes and would further pronounce the tank meta we see nowadays. I know stamblades can be annoying if they run away from 1v1s but that is no reason to destroy one of the few classes that is still genuinely enjoyable in pvp.

And if anything deserves a nerf right now, it is zaan.

I agree there is "no reason to destroy one of the few classes that is still genuinely enjoyable in pvp." But some balance is needed. I vote buff all the other classes.

I member homestead(± a patch). The most balanced unbalanced patches. You had proctatos, permablock tanks, triple shield pet builds, bomblades, megaheals from BoL, Blazing builds, etc. I would rather that that now. Despite AoE caps, every class had ways to deal with zerglings. It was actually fun.

ManDraKE · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

cloak isn't completelty broken for the first time in 2 years, and now people ask for nerfs ahhaa

get lost. Slot and Aoe on your bar and problem solved.

Make AoEs cheaper then. If I use spikes, its 4k down the drain, and not even a guarantee that it will discloak them because a stamblade has much more mobility than most builds. And if I do discloak them, what happens? Straight back in.

Remove detect pots though. They are like a cloak shieldbreaker.

and if i use fear to break your block, what happens? you go straight back to block 1 second later. Same with every other defensive mechanic in this game.

People want to make nightblades useless because they don't know how to counter and because they are annoying to play against, but neither of those two are valid points for balance discussion.

StaticWave · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

Agreed. It's frustrating seeing STAMINA nightblades being able to overcloak everything. It should have a cost increase Imo. So STAMINA nightblades won't spam it as they are doing now.

You can't spam cloak as a stamina user... Maximum amount of cloaks you can repeatedly use on a stam build with 11k magicka is 3. The ones that cloak a lot may have 1k magicka regen, popped a tri pot, or use siphonning attacks.

NyassaV · March 2018

Things still break cloak so there is no argument