Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

Exploiting is still exploiting whether or not it benefits the one exploiting.

If I stole something from a store that I didn't need, It would still be against the law.

Running through lava in a dungeon does not explicitly further your progression, nor does it necessarily prove intention, whereas, say, repeating the same dungeon to get specific rewards that were unintended would be more apt to be called an exploit because the intention is clear through the repetition, and the motive is clear because of the reward. Running through lava has no reward and I can't see a situation where you would run through it repeatedly to achieve something.

City of Ash II has a few spots that you can "skip" and its clearly not intended and is a benefit if your just trying to get the monster helm.

So is dying to the mobs and walking past them to skip them an exploit?

You should always do your best to follow terms of service. No matter the level of the toon. You should always do your best to avoid bugs and glitches.

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

The question isn't whether they were max level, that everyone is debating, from a general sense. The question at issue is whether or not the failure to notice, or taking time to leave the zone, or taking time to trouble shoot, and thus gaining cp unintentionally is an exploit.

And zos did state that they audited accounts.

If I went to IC every day for 500 stones and then left and did the same on patch day with the software bug then an audit would show that I was just doing what I normally did and not go there to specifically get huge amounts of xp.

Now I'm not at max CP and if I noticed I was getting 1 CP per kill you betcha a red flag would go up and I would stop.

I am attempting to clarify the debate for the OP. Actually taking a position on the debate has lead to two similar threads being shut down, so I won't be commenting on that aspect of it. You should never knowingly violate terms of Service.

I just read the TOS and nothing in there about exploit was broken

Nearly everyone I know has at some point skipped past mobs to get the dungeon done quickly

Nestor wrote: »

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

If yes then how is it different from running through lava to bypass mobs and bosses in a dungeon?

Your doing something that reduces the amount of Exp and Loot you get in a Dungeon by bypassing mobs and bosses. So, how is that even remotely considered an exploit?

First, bypassing dungeon mobs by walking through intentionally accessible terrain is not an exploit. But your reasoning is wrong because, while you are skipping out on loot and xp from kills, you are shortening the time investment. This could mean you are awarded a time challenge achievement, and would definitely mean you have more time to loot more valuable opponents.

To the OP though, I think they should only ban/suspend accounts if you were spreading the word, someone told you in chat and they can prove it, or you were spending your CP as you were earning it. For anyone else, they should just role back most of the ill-gotten cp.

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

The question isn't whether they were max level, that everyone is debating, from a general sense. The question at issue is whether or not the failure to notice, or taking time to leave the zone, or taking time to trouble shoot, and thus gaining cp unintentionally is an exploit.

And zos did state that they audited accounts.

If I went to IC every day for 500 stones and then left and did the same on patch day with the software bug then an audit would show that I was just doing what I normally did and not go there to specifically get huge amounts of xp.

Now I'm not at max CP and if I noticed I was getting 1 CP per kill you betcha a red flag would go up and I would stop.

I am attempting to clarify the debate for the OP. Actually taking a position on the debate has lead to two similar threads being shut down, so I won't be commenting on that aspect of it. You should never knowingly violate terms of Service.

I just read the TOS and nothing in there about exploit was broken

Here you go, since its a little hard to find...but you know, you agreed to everything in the TOS when you play the game. I've edited out parts that aren't applicable to this situation and bolded parts that are. https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service#_EN_Toc_08

8. RULES OF CONDUCT
...You agree not to use any Service to:
....
Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;


Combine that with the Code of Conduct, another thing that we all agreed to when we played the game:
5.2 Users will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax. Users will not intentionally use or share any bug found within any ZeniMax Game, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage. You will not directly or indirectly communicate the existence of any such bug to any other user of the ZeniMax Service (in game or on a ZeniMax service). Report bugs and exploits using the in-game portal or via http://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/home.

And you know what, its looking pretty clear to me that we all agreed to report and not exploit bugs when we see them.

My problem is that the very definition of exploit is to make full use of and derive benefit from. If you are not benefiting anything, then how is it an exploit? I am NOT referring to this EXP thing, but in general, but the terms of service agreement making a blanket statement that you could be breaking the terms of service without even knowing, and you are still considered an exploiter? So if a zone isn't working properly, and I am not gaining anything from it being broken, how is it an exploit? it is ONLY an exploit (by definition) if you GAIN something. So when I use the broken grouping tool and it works for a change, am I exploiting? If so, then HOW? I need to gain something for it to be an exploit, so playing a broken game shouldn't be considered an exploit. Again, this has nothing to do with the EXP exploit, as you obviously gained something from that. but to change the very definition of the word "exploit" to better suit your own needs is not very cool. I'm just saying.

It's a couple week suspension. Why is it still being discussed? Zos made it extremely clear anyone punished could submit an appeal if they wanted, with an explanation such as you posed (full cp full levels) and they would review it to see if it had merit to be reversed. Otherwise, if guilty, they have a couple weeks to do something else, watch the rest of the Olympics, plot their revenge, whatever. I know I personally neglect ALL my other games for my true love, ESO, and for that I am ashamed.

Castiel_Boomer wrote: »

My problem is that the very definition of exploit is to make full use of and derive benefit from. If you are not benefiting anything, then how is it an exploit? I am NOT referring to this EXP thing, but in general, but the terms of service agreement making a blanket statement that you could be breaking the terms of service without even knowing, and you are still considered an exploiter? So if a zone isn't working properly, and I am not gaining anything from it being broken, how is it an exploit? it is ONLY an exploit (by definition) if you GAIN something. So when I use the broken grouping tool and it works for a change, am I exploiting? If so, then HOW? I need to gain something for it to be an exploit, so playing a broken game shouldn't be considered an exploit. Again, this has nothing to do with the EXP exploit, as you obviously gained something from that. but to change the very definition of the word "exploit" to better suit your own needs is not very cool. I'm just saying.

The Code of Conduct specifically says "5.2 Users will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax. Users will not intentionally use or share any bug found within any ZeniMax Game, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage."

So which counts more for ZOS, your definition of an exploit or whether or not you followed their terms of service/Code of Conduct when you discovered a bug?

Yes, it's still abuse of a bug which isn't intended.

It even clearly states in the ToS you don't have to directly benefit from an exploit to be considered abusing one if you're still using it (as someone pointed out in another thread).

VaranisArano wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it is exploit, because the code has bugs. Player able to skip mob in dungeon is obv not a bug. I never understand why ppl should be banned for exploit, it’s loopholes in the game’s code. I support roll back on dealing with exploits (like remove gold / gear / skin).

Because we agreed to these things called the Terms of Service and the Code of Conduct, wherein we agree to report any bugs or "loopholes" we find and not abuse them.

I mean, if you can't be banned for breaking the TOS and the COC you agreed to by failing to report and then continuing to abuse "loopholes" in the game code (or whatever you want to call them) what can you be banned for?

Zos has made it clear that reporting is not part of the definition of whether or not you have “exploited” anything. Or whether or not one is subject to discipline.

VaranisArano wrote: »

jordanmarx_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it is exploit, because the code has bugs. Player able to skip mob in dungeon is obv not a bug. I never understand why ppl should be banned for exploit, it’s loopholes in the game’s code. I support roll back on dealing with exploits (like remove gold / gear / skin).

Because we agreed to these things called the Terms of Service and the Code of Conduct, wherein we agree to report any bugs or "loopholes" we find and not abuse them.

I mean, if you can't be banned for breaking the TOS and the COC you agreed to by failing to report and then continuing to abuse "loopholes" in the game code (or whatever you want to call them) what can you be banned for?

Zos has made it clear that reporting is not part of the definition of whether or not you have “exploited” anything. Or whether or not one is subject to discipline.

Beyond discussing particulars of cases, which I'm not interested in doing (nor really permitted to do on the forums) I'm not sure I can agree with that from the official responses on the Forums. However, I would expect that if someone did in fact report and stop doing whatever had caused the bug when they noticed it, that would be an excellent thing to bring up in appeal to ZOS.

The confusion I think comes from the fact you have an obligation according to the TOS to report whether or not you were actually experiencing a bug. So theoretically, by exploiting and not reporting the bug, under my Understanding, the origins of which I will not discuss (sorry I know I would love to source this) you have committed two TOS infractions and not just one. This is just my interpretation based on my research. I could be wrong.

However, they reserve the rights to determine different degrees of culpability so I agree with your end conclusion.

First things first: Stupid poll is stupid.

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

If yes then how is it different from running through lava to bypass mobs and bosses in a dungeon?

Your doing something that reduces the amount of Exp and Loot you get in a Dungeon by bypassing mobs and bosses. So, how is that even remotely considered an exploit?

If it helps you get a speed run achievement, it would be an exploit.

Only if the achieve requires you to kill all mobs/encounters.

Only the two new DLC dungeons achieves are listed that way.

If it doesn't specify you have to kill everything in addition to the time requirement, anything within the confines of the game that saves time is not an exploit.

It's the very reason groups approach speed runs, no deaths, and HM's very differently and with different tactics.

Castiel_Boomer wrote: »

My problem is that the very definition of exploit is to make full use of and derive benefit from. If you are not benefiting anything, then how is it an exploit? I am NOT referring to this EXP thing, but in general, but the terms of service agreement making a blanket statement that you could be breaking the terms of service without even knowing, and you are still considered an exploiter? So if a zone isn't working properly, and I am not gaining anything from it being broken, how is it an exploit? it is ONLY an exploit (by definition) if you GAIN something. So when I use the broken grouping tool and it works for a change, am I exploiting? If so, then HOW? I need to gain something for it to be an exploit, so playing a broken game shouldn't be considered an exploit. Again, this has nothing to do with the EXP exploit, as you obviously gained something from that. but to change the very definition of the word "exploit" to better suit your own needs is not very cool. I'm just saying.

@Castiel_Boomer by all means, give us a theoretical example of something you feel they would currently consider an exploit that you feel you would derive no benefit from?

Because I'm fairly sure the definition speaks for itself. 'Benefit' can come in a number of forms. I can think of no examples where your definition could possibly exist.

If me and my buddy have millions in our bank accounts, is it really stealing if I snatch $100 from his wallet? Or $1000? I mean he won't even notice, and I don't even need it.