Would "hiding the numbers" resolve a lot of complaining in MMOs like ESO?

Knowledge · February 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Hiding numbers won’t magically make all the bad players better.

But you won't know who the bad players are.

josh.lackey_ESO · February 2018

No. There would still some prevailing view of what is the "right way" to do things, only it will be based on woo woo rather than actual data.

Feanor · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Hiding numbers won’t magically make all the bad players better.

But you won't know who the bad players are.

Well, at least now we’re at the bottom of this. It’s not about hiding numbers but about hiding the bad players. Won’t work out because performance and challenge is a part of human nature. People would simply post their specific group composition and the time it took them. Benchmarking would just be slower, but it would be there. I’d rather save my time and know if it’s worth it after the first pull.

jimijac0me · February 2018

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jimijac0me wrote: »

Well, once upon a time this was a vison for a previous dev team, and then the forums and development of a game happened and...

Addons - specifically the sort that didn’t allow group dps etc were frowned upon by the original devs, and then the game moved forward, dev team changed and here we are, better or worse is up to the community but the many have a voice We have what we have because WE ASKED for it

True. And it didn’t help that they couldn’t fix animation canceling. If you are suppose to take your hints from displays and graphical queues, the whole thing is busted if those never show.

That’s true, I didn’t say I liked it one way or the other, merely pointed out the irony of a thread about it all these years later when a dev team really was against it years earlier

For the record I love the numbers!

AchlysNox · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea and it seems like it could resolve some of the complaining in an MMORPG. Going by the saying, " What you don't know can't hurt you " and the fact that the majority of the people in MMOs, namely casual players, want to play their way, without a meta. They'd much rather make a fun unique build and not be shamed for it by the elites in the community than follow the cookie-cutter line of thinking.

Problems this solves
Anger over nerfs.

Anger over buffs.

Community acceptance regardless of the way you play

Preventing toxic environments and elitism

The big hurdle is how would this be done? Imagine if the boss HP bar had no numbers or percentages. It just gradually went down. There would be no log regarding how much damage someone did or healed for. Gear would be labeled without numbers in a manner such as "Improves magicka recovery slightly, " " Improves magicka recovery greatly, " " When hit you regenerate HP. This can only occur sometimes."

In my head I'm sort of designing the MMO of my dreams, and the idea you describe here is definitely on my list. To my mind, the key feature of any MMO is immersion and the ability to truly feel that you're exploring a new world. To that end I would take it a step further and even remove health bars and resource indicators like mana, and instead have visual representations of how damaged the enemy is. (I realize this is probably beyond the technical capability of ESO).

In my dream MMO, if you went swimming in heavy armor ... you'd drown.

Sixty5 · February 2018

Remove numbers?

As a number myself, I find that sort of numericist talk offensive and degrading.

Elsonso · February 2018

They launched the game with this idea. It isn't a bad idea, really, despite what is said here. It can certainly make things a lot simpler because it removes a lot of the spreadsheet work that complicates things. That can introduce a considerable amount of angst, as we have already seen.

If ZOS had a sterling reputation for quality, so that it was not necessary to fix bugs in stuff that used to work, and people had confidence in the combat system, it probably would work.

I see the numbers as independent verification of what ZOS is doing. Players have picked up work that ZOS is not doing well.

knaveofengland · February 2018

have played many mmos over the years , nothing wrong with numbers stats etc , can be real pain at times, a better way foward would be instead on complaining , why dont you show players where they are going wrong and help them.

they could have a tutorial every so many levels how to do x,y,z .then you have a better player experience all round, its like with the addons , eso should have them as standard .

nice thoughts, on wot they had adopt a tomato , how about we adopt these players and help them .

wish you all well and hope you all have a wonderfull day

efster · February 2018

Wait, by remove numbers you mean like this:

Impale - Active
Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing Magic Damage. Deals a lot more damage to targets who are nearly dead. Allows you to use the ability at range.
Cost: Magicka
Range: Long, haha

Piercing Mark - Active
Expose an enemy’s weaknesses to afflict them with Major Fracture and Major Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance for some time. You can detect marked enemies even if they use stealth or invisibiltiy, and when a marked enemy dies, you heal yourself for some of your Max Health. You can only have one Piercing Mark active at a time. Ability has increased duration, and you can see the target if they use stealth or invisibility.
Cost: Magicka
Range: lol, no numbers allowed sry

Soul Harvest - Ultimate
Ravage an enemy with a spinning attack to deal Magic Damage and increase your damage against them for a short duration. Also afflicts the enemy with Major Defile, reducing their healing received and Heath Recovery. While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain Ultimate.
Cost: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Range: Try it and find out

....no, thank you.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea and it seems like it could resolve some of the complaining in an MMORPG. Going by the saying, " What you don't know can't hurt you " and the fact that the majority of the people in MMOs, namely casual players, want to play their way, without a meta. They'd much rather make a fun unique build and not be shamed for it by the elites in the community than follow the cookie-cutter line of thinking.

Problems this solves
Anger over nerfs.

Anger over buffs.

Community acceptance regardless of the way you play

Preventing toxic environments and elitism

The big hurdle is how would this be done? Imagine if the boss HP bar had no numbers or percentages. It just gradually went down. There would be no log regarding how much damage someone did or healed for. Gear would be labeled without numbers in a manner such as "Improves magicka recovery slightly, " " Improves magicka recovery greatly, " " When hit you regenerate HP. This can only occur sometimes."

If the percentages were removed you would not know when it is appropriate to use your execute.Providing your class has access to one.If they weren't there you would be needlessly wasting resources.Also alot of mechanics are percentage based.So no.

VaranisArano · February 2018

I'll be blunt. I can tell if a group is doing well or poorly simply based on the mechanics of the bosses and how long certain things take. I suspect anyone with sufficient experience at group dungeons can do the same.

I ran normal Darkshade Caverns I as a tank 30 times in 2 days when I was farming for Automaton set pieces. Pretty soon, I knew whether I had an average DPS, a good DPS, or a bad DPS group. Why? The time it takes for the Foreman boss to go down is pretty consistent and its very easy to tell how much damage we're doing in between his teleport moves.

The same is true of most dungeons. Usually by the first miniboss but definitely on the first boss, I can tell if this is a high DPS group, average for what I usually see on this boss, or "well, this is gonna take a while" DPS on the boss. No addons or numbers needed, just the experience to know how much time this normally takes and how much the boss usually does their mechanics. I don't imagine I'm unique in being able to tell that. (Oh, and I can tell if the healer is the one doing all the damage too.)

Which is to say, I don't need the numbers to tell me when I've got "bad players" with less than average DPS in my group.

AyeshaBelladonna · February 2018

The single biggest problem i have with that is it would prevent us from "policing" ZOS.

From one side of that- they tend to "balance" anything working too well for one particular class or another. These are sometimes good changes and needed, and sometimes bad changes and too much. Without seeing the numbers we have no way to know when/what/and how much something got changed which would lead to more frustration rather than less. Particularly with how long it takes to get things set up for brand new players as is.

From another point of view: ZOS devs rely on feedback heavily. not only would lack of actual numbers mean they could be as overbearing or absent as they felt like and we'd probably never really know except for varying levels of frustration on our side with things not working or things being exploited. They also rely on our feedback to tell them when things are broken. many changes they make to the game have unforeseen consequences, particularly when coders have been replaced since the last time that part of the code has been touched. if we don't have the numbers we can't give proper feedback on exactly what changed and how and when. Soooooo many bugs and exploits would fit through the cracks that way. Way more than there is now. That's simple common sense- they would never have the time and money to invest in proper testing without our help and it would eventually break the game.

While yes, i agree, it would be more immersive an experience (and you can turn off all the bars and stuff now btw for the most part) and would lead to interesting fights, i can see it causing more problems than less and either devs would constantly be screwing with stuff or have a hall pass to be fairly absent because "hey, if they can't tell this is broken right away we can get around to seeing about a fix in a few months. lets go mess with that new dungeon/costume/mount"

VexingArcanist · February 2018

A staff toting Bosmer walks into a trial.... and is promptly kicked.

Changing numbers doesn't remove meta-centric elitists.

Jayman1000 · February 2018

Nooo, what the deuce? dont hide the numbers. If you dont want to see the numbers I think you can already hide them with the current UI? Or perhaps you could develop an addon that hides all numbers so you won't see them. But please don't force it upon others. Or hey, a great idea here for you: hide the UI completely, that way you won't see any numbers at all, no nothing, just the plain world, you can do it now! I have my hide UI key set to K, you may have it set it to something else, I just use it for when I want to take screenshots, but you may use it to hide numbers.

I also fail to see how hiding numbers will make sub-par performing players begin to perform above-par...?

Seriously this is the one of the worst ideas I have seen. Next thing you are going to suggest completely prohibiting addons, right?

SupremeRissole · February 2018

If you wanna do roleplaying crap and run around fungal 1 for an hour in your werewolf pack and not want to see numbers, sweet then this idea works for you and it should be toggle option in settings.

Bear in mind there are people who get enjoyment out of theorycrafting and dps testing, people who strive to be the best by slugging it out in front of a dummy for hours. This idea punishes those people and gives no adequate feedback on performance.

Twenty0zTsunami · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea and it seems like it could resolve some of the complaining in an MMORPG. Going by the saying, " What you don't know can't hurt you " and the fact that the majority of the people in MMOs, namely casual players, want to play their way, without a meta. They'd much rather make a fun unique build and not be shamed for it by the elites in the community than follow the cookie-cutter line of thinking.

Problems this solves
Anger over nerfs.

Anger over buffs.

Community acceptance regardless of the way you play

Preventing toxic environments and elitism

The big hurdle is how would this be done? Imagine if the boss HP bar had no numbers or percentages. It just gradually went down. There would be no log regarding how much damage someone did or healed for. Gear would be labeled without numbers in a manner such as "Improves magicka recovery slightly, " " Improves magicka recovery greatly, " " When hit you regenerate HP. This can only occur sometimes."

I turned off floating combat text and stopped using dps meters years ago. Funny hwo much you can enjoy the game when you're not hyperfocused on a wheel of digits just aching to see them big ol critties pop up.

Dymence · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Hiding numbers won’t magically make all the bad players better.

But you won't know who the bad players are.

I don't need to see numbers to tell who the bad players are. I can simply look at their characters and see what they are doing.

Crazy, right?

code65536 · February 2018

First This is how the game was originally, to a large extent. This is not exactly a new idea.

Second Whether numbers are there are not, you can be sure to feel it when a boss fight that usually takes 1 minute ends up taking 10 minutes. Nobody wants to waste an hour of their life doing something that should've been done in 15 minutes. And no amount of hiding will change that.

Third LOL

Eyesinthedrk · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

JmJ wrote: »

I dont think most ppl have any problems about players who want to play game with theyr unique build's. Its only comes problem when those ppl expect to carried trough dungeon's. For example dd is queing to vBF with 5k dps with he's/her's fancy unique build thing's most likely will go wrong.

Yes but now you wouldn't know if they were being carried. You would just be happy in your own little world killing the boss.

Only people that have low dps don’t know that they are doing low dps. Now you might not be able to tell if someone is doing 33k or 40k. But you can easily tell if they are doin good or terrible just by watching their rotation. Spamming one ability, slow bar swaps, and no light attacks are always dead give always. Sometimes you can tell as soon as they pull out their 2h or SnB one a dungeon.

CaineCarver · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea and it seems like it could resolve some of the complaining in an MMORPG. Going by the saying, " What you don't know can't hurt you " and the fact that the majority of the people in MMOs, namely casual players, want to play their way, without a meta. They'd much rather make a fun unique build and not be shamed for it by the elites in the community than follow the cookie-cutter line of thinking.

Problems this solves
Anger over nerfs.

Anger over buffs.

Community acceptance regardless of the way you play

Preventing toxic environments and elitism

The big hurdle is how would this be done? Imagine if the boss HP bar had no numbers or percentages. It just gradually went down. There would be no log regarding how much damage someone did or healed for. Gear would be labeled without numbers in a manner such as "Improves magicka recovery slightly, " " Improves magicka recovery greatly, " " When hit you regenerate HP. This can only occur sometimes."

The problem is simply for many of us that play MMOs part of the fun is building characters by understanding the skills, passives, sets in a detailed way. Putting together the best we can be with what the game provides into what you call "the meta" Blocking the information with a "black box" approach would ruin our fun in an attempt give the less analytical players feeling of accomplishment and anonymous comfort. Those of us that want to find the best builds would still do so through trial and error but the frustration would ruin our enjoyment of doing our thing. In the end, players with poor builds would still be noticeable in group content and shunned for poor performance by those more competitive players using better builds and play styles.

More traditional MMOs and players expect and enjoy hardcore character development in games. With the rise of more casual players and solo players merging into the multiplayer theaters, we have a conflict of interest when it comes to desired components and gameplay. Neither group is wrong or bad, we just want different things. I don't think a game can be all things to all players and it's probably not possible to keep both groups totally happy. I know for me ESO already has enough black boxes to be frustrating. Going to a system as you describe would see me move on to another game. Perhaps the two groups of players can coexist so long as the game doesn't cater to just one side.

How does that old saying go ... you know it was a good compromise when no one goes away from the table happy.

LordSemaj · February 2018

Not having numbers is something other MMOs have tried. It doesn't help. You can still figure out the damage of each attack by measuring it over hundreds of trials. Some nerd will always do this and report the findings to the community.

Heck, old shooter games didn't report "numbers" when you shot the enemy and people still were able to figure out that Shotguns did 30 damage or 60 when pumped.

CaineCarver · February 2018

Another old saying that really applies to the two camps of players. "Birds of a feather flock together" To that end if you want to be a casual immersive player don't use add-ons and find other like-minded folks to adventure with. If you want to be a hardcore goal-oriented player use all the add-ons and find other like-minded players to raid with.

Zenimax stop trying to mash us all into one herd and instead give us tools so we can find our flocks easier!

ghastley · February 2018

If the UI was up to showing wounds, having enemies bleed, and all the other real-life feedback that tells how how the battle's going, then I'd agree with this.

But it doesn't. A toon is perfectly health-looking until he keels over dead, so you need the numbers for feedback. And the game internally needs the same numbers to work out when he's dead.

Cernow · February 2018

Hiding numbers won't automagically balance the game and classes.

Hiding numbers won't remove elitism, elitists and theorycrafters will always find a way.

Hiding numbers won't bring any more immersion than is already possible with the default UI which is pretty number free if you switch certain things off. Those who like to see the numbers need addons to properly achieve number cruncher nirvana anyway.

All hiding numbers does is sweep balance and combat design issues under the carpet, allowing the developers to not bother to fix anything or be called out if they bodge it.

Katahdin · February 2018

Uh, don't think it would help at all

Orjix · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

JmJ wrote: »

I dont think most ppl have any problems about players who want to play game with theyr unique build's. Its only comes problem when those ppl expect to carried trough dungeon's. For example dd is queing to vBF with 5k dps with he's/her's fancy unique build thing's most likely will go wrong.

Yes but now you wouldn't know if they were being carried. You would just be happy in your own little world killing the boss.

How would you not know you're carrying someone else? In certain parts, if the other DD isn't insane you're going to notice a significant drop off, if you know you pull a 27k DPS and the bosses bar is just not moving, you can conclude the other DD is garbage. If the damage is low too the heals and tank is going to notice and start to watch, if you have a decent amount of time in the game you can kinda figure out which DD is the weak link.

Sylveria_Relden · February 2018

Hiding numbers only emboldens career min/maxers to complain more than they already do.

Games should be "entertaining"- not akin to manipulating an Excel spreadsheet.

Orjix · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

Looks, if I'm Qing for a dungeon I want it done ASAP, I'm not Around for the story, I'm here to get in, get it done, and get out so I can back to actually playing the fun part of the game

MaleAmazon · February 2018

I´d like numbers to be hidden in a single-player RPG, where it is about story etc. You might have something like your character being able to deduce vulnerabilities after multiple encounters with a certain enemy. Then, the less ´game´ stuff the more immersive the game. If it´s done right, I´d like health bars etc to be removed too. The less on-screen interface the better, so long as it works. Myst had the best interface ever.

In ESO, it is the exact opposite for me. Numbers are too hidden and mechanics are opaque. In order to find out how much "5400 spell resist" is I have to use google. And it seems the game is designed around this. For more roleplay-style gameplay numbers are unimportant anyway unless they implement a veteran overland/quest mode. You melt through everything with any half decent setup and you auto-level to max CP just by playing.

ESO is more similar to a competitive strategy game in this respect, to me. Drives me nuts when I try to devise a strategy and see things like "adds bonus damage to cavalry". Ok, so how much bonus damage? % or flat rate? Does a chariot or horse archer count as "cavalry" mechanics-wise?

Meh.

I do find myself changing interface a lot though. I usually turn numbers off unless Im PvPing. Healthbars I turn off, too, if Im doing Overland or Dungeon DD for a while.

Nihility42 · February 2018

This would be terrible. For people like me (i.e. nerds) the fun is in the numbers. Without numbers I'd honestly probably leave for a game that had them. I like my spreadsheets and nerdery.