Devilhand wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Etrella wrote: »

Quiet!! Giving us My little Pony is far more Important.

Pretty sure that the folks working on the store content aren't the ones working on the network issues.

In fact I'd bet on that.

You again. Here's an idea: employees working on art assets cost money; employees working on network performance cost money. Money is limited. Therefore, more money spent on art means less money spent on network.

Oh but I guess in your tiny world where you ran a dev house, each employee was unique, irreplaceable,and utterly tied to their project such that there was no way to shuffle resources between projects. Hey, welcome to the world of real development! (Zos seems to reside there despite some hints to the contrary).

Yeah, artists are usually professionals in netcode too. Wait, they aren't, they can't be shuffled there.

So your solution is essentially fire the art team, and replace them with network specialists. I'm quite sure that will cost more money in long term than just keeping everything the same as is now.

So tell me, whats the point of having art, etc if you cant play the game properly due to performance?

Well, I can play properly the game, but I'm not doing any PvP. I'm sure I'm not belong to the absolute majority - but I'm also sure that the people whose playtime is spent on PvP for more than 50% are also not the majority, since in every MMO (except the dedicated PvP ones) less than half of the players are playing PvP on a daily basis.

Since ZOS don't comment this issue we can only make assumptions. I think the best solution would be rewriting the netcode from the base. But I think it can't be finished until patch 5.0 (yes, I know that we will get 3.3 next week, I didn't mistype the patch number).

[/quote]

Exactly. It seems like they will not invest the time and resources into fixing it. I am not even going to respond to this other guy that you were responding to because he seems like one of the few that just doesn't get it. Im not sure If thats because he is casual with the game or is one of the lucky few who doesn't have these issues..

But anyway its like ive said many times, with an issue as massive as this i would expect regular updates from zos on the issue. Through the forums, the main website, eso live, reddit, etc.. 10+ months ago I used to say i would be happy with "we are actively working on the performance" but now that isn't good enough any more.. This is far to big and has gone on for too long..

The one thing i can agree with that guy on is that its not the fault of forum mods and they dont have anything to do with it. All they can do is pass the message along (if that).. Regardless of whos fault it is, i think the only thing we can do is get a massive post together. This one seems to be doing good. If enough people vote MAYBE it will get their attention. But i think its more likely they wont really comment much on the issue until they decide to invest the time and resources into getting it fixed (if they ever do)..
[/quote]

Well I'll respond to you instead. I'm not the one that doesn't get. If you truly read the argument I was making, (and understood it), you will find that I agree with everyone that there is a problem and it needs to be fixed. However, posting here just saying fix it will get you nowhere. Whilst I don't know what I'm talking about from a game development point of view, (which I clearly stated), I do understand infrastructure extremely well and how that supports the application that sits upon it. I also know it is not simple or cheap to fix if the infrastructure is the issue. I know this from experience, not because I am a "casual", but because I do this for a living. But again, my 25 years experience tells me that this issue is most likely code and infrastructure.

What needs to happen is every time you get an issue you report it via the bug reporting process with absolute detail so that the post is made in a constructive way and gives the dev team something to go on. So if you are in Vivec or in a PvE environment and you have an issue, make an exact note of what time it was who you were grouped with, in what area of the map you were, what you were trying to do, an estimate of how many other players are in the same area etc etc.

Maybe it would help if the dev's released a more relevant bug reporting for for these issues - this may encourage the more constructive type of feedback required to fix the issue - again this is constructive not just whining.

In the meantime stop assuming that ZOS are not working on the issue when they clearly state that they are. And new content has to keep coming to fund the entire team, not just the "crown store" team, otherwise no one gets paid. In my infrastructure team alone I manage 106 IT consultants and architects. If we don't push new product to our clients how do you think we would fund all of the maintenance and infrastructure development that goes on in the background and is supported by a team of 400 people? This is just the UK. Now extrapolate that across the globe. It is the same with this game. There is not just a PC environment but console environments as well, there are time differences and different server infrastructures and different regions in NA and EU. There are different types of players, 1000's of which will be online at the same time all trying to do the same or different things. Yes the game is flawed, from a performance point of view, but if you understood the complexity of getting it to run at all then you might have a bit more appreciation and a little less disgruntlement for the Dev team that are trying to address everyone's concerns.

lordrichter wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

So tell me, whats the point of having art, etc if you cant play the game properly due to performance?

Good point. Cyrodiil should just be different colored wire frames. Grass and terrain are gray. Same alliance is green. Bad guys are red. Colorblind people will go nuts, but we won't need artists.

Kanar wrote: »

Right, because Zos only develops one game and the entirety of their staff is dedicated to it. Consider for a moment that they have multiple teams and concurrent projects, and they could move a resource from project A to project B.

I have speculated that ZOS has a second game in the works, but all we know is that they have the one game. ZM did not create an entire division just to run ESO for the rest of eternity. It isn't a question of if they are going to do a second game, but when.

Personally, I think they do have a second game hidden back there, and they started to get serious about it in 2015, after console launch. Where it is in the development cycle depends on how much they want to balance between ESO and Game X, but it will still have a ways to go before they will even talk about it. I expect that it is stealing resources from ESO at a fairly steady pace. Before they announce this game, any changes in the DLC/Chapter schedules will be for "content and quality improvement reasons", but after announce, they can simply say that the new game needs to get done so they are slowing down the DLC/Chapter pace.

So you trying to be sarcastic or play smart dont you?
Of course there is always the troll that takes the words out of context and exagerate. All im refering to is that instead of wasting most of the resources (looks like it is that way) into new art development (costumes, mounts, motif's, etc) they should focus on solving performance. People dont like to play an online game with such bad performance, check the poll, or if you dont trust it ask in zone chat how is performance doing.

If youre not going to support to the thread and just mock and exagerate with silly comments, go somewhere else.

Devilhand wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

So tell me, whats the point of having art, etc if you cant play the game properly due to performance?

Good point. Cyrodiil should just be different colored wire frames. Grass and terrain are gray. Same alliance is green. Bad guys are red. Colorblind people will go nuts, but we won't need artists.

Kanar wrote: »

Right, because Zos only develops one game and the entirety of their staff is dedicated to it. Consider for a moment that they have multiple teams and concurrent projects, and they could move a resource from project A to project B.

I have speculated that ZOS has a second game in the works, but all we know is that they have the one game. ZM did not create an entire division just to run ESO for the rest of eternity. It isn't a question of if they are going to do a second game, but when.

Personally, I think they do have a second game hidden back there, and they started to get serious about it in 2015, after console launch. Where it is in the development cycle depends on how much they want to balance between ESO and Game X, but it will still have a ways to go before they will even talk about it. I expect that it is stealing resources from ESO at a fairly steady pace. Before they announce this game, any changes in the DLC/Chapter schedules will be for "content and quality improvement reasons", but after announce, they can simply say that the new game needs to get done so they are slowing down the DLC/Chapter pace.

So you trying to be sarcastic or play smart dont you?

Yup. Picked up on that, eh? I thought it was a good counter point to yours.

Devilhand wrote: »

All im refering to is that instead of wasting most of the resources (looks like it is that way) into new art development (costumes, mounts, motif's, etc) they should focus on solving performance. People dont like to play an online game with such bad performance, check the poll, or if you dont trust it ask in zone chat how is performance doing.

If ZOS could have fixed performance in ESO, do you not think they would have done it already? The last time ZOS really talked about performance and Cyrodiil lag, that I can remember, was probably 2 years ago. At that time, they talked about onions. It was not encouraging.

So, really, questioning how they split the money between art and programming is moot. The bigger question is whether they have written off performance in ESO as a lost cause.

If they agree with the forum, and Zone chat, that performance is bad across the board, and if they agree that ESO is going the way of Pokemon Go, then what they should be doing is spending money to develop Game X as fast as they can. They need something to pick up and carry the studio forward post-ESO, and sooner, not later. Meanwhile, what ESO gets is enough money to keep the Crown Store alive, and drop some DLC and Chapters, while they race to finish Game X.

[/quote]

You botched that post but none of this matters. Ill say it one more time. Its been going on (to some degree or another) since day one. It has been progressively getting worse for a year +. Now its unplayable most of the time. IN ANY OTHER GAME we would be getting regular updates on the issue through the forums, website, and eso live. We are not. No one is really asking zos to stop shitting out their new content, we just want to address and fix the issue that has been plaguing the game forever.

Competitive M M O? No, not anymore. And maybe a year ago the random post we get from zos saying "we are actively working on this issue" was okay, but its not okay anymore we need more than that. I mean its better then nothing but not enough. Regular updates is what we need. This should be priority number one (after keeping the company running). And againnnnn this is zenmax media, not some random company. [/quote]

Here we go again! You, like your "buddy", you take to criticism but with no counter argument.

Where do I start?

The game is not unplayable. Not at all. I have never found once that it is unplayable. It has issues and sometimes I get wiped because of lag and this is annoying.

Let me try again. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH THE GAME AND IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Clear now?

There are major issues with so many games and I haven't been told once by a developer that it is going to be fixed. 5% of the game is broken. ZOS acknowledge the issue and tell you they are working on it. Are you seriously expecting them to tell you which line of code they are investigating or which server they are looking to upgrade? You live in a fantasy world if you expect this type of information. As I have said previously it is in no one's interest for Zenimax to release that information.

Lets compare Zenimax to Microsoft, Apple or Google? Do any of these companies tell you what they are working on before they release a patch or update? (no is the answer by the way).

Now lets address your comments to me. You say that I "botched that post". Please tell me how and we can have a constructive discussion about it. However, like your buddy, you offer no constructive argument and just have another prop at a company that provides an entertainment medium for you to enjoy at very low cost to you by the way.

IF you want to have a real, constructive debate I am happy for you to counter my argument and make me see why I have it so wrong. So far, no one on this forum has made me think my point of view is incorrect.

Kind Regards to you and your buddy.

I still say what I have said for years now.... maybe they should have used that money "a million dollars" for new ones instead of giving it away to a new player "lvl35... I think" who quit after winning the money.. end of story

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

I still say what I have said for years now.... maybe they should have used that money "a million dollars" for new ones instead of giving it away to a new player "lvl35... I think" who quit after winning the money.. end of story

Is that what happened? They quit? I never bothered to follow any of these people to see what happened.

Ya as soon as they won the money there was a pretty nice interview with him he was about to get married and all that so the million dollars came in right on time. He was a new player just picked the game up and played it for 6 months off and on and got to lvl 35 and then quit

Guess you can't buy loyalty.

Lysette wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I don't think the servers are the only issue.

From my understanding of what ZOS has said it's more about the number of calls the servers are getting due to how many different layers there are to a calculation of "I use my skill on these people" which gets worse when two large groups fight.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be some improvement with upgraded servers, but I don't think it's the silver bullet everyone thinks it is, if it was they would have done it because this is a persistent embarrassing issue for them.

Honestly, I feel more lag now despite Morrowind gutting sustain (way more heavy attacks vs skill casts) and friendly AoE effects being invisible. The performance is getting *worse* almost every patch, not staying the same or improving. I’m convinced ZOS doesn’t care at this point tbh

I don't see many big groups in Cyrodiil doing just heavy attacks, additionally anyone attacking with a lightning staff is still going to be effectively doing the same as throwing an AoE skill.
Friendly AoE effects is a visual/graphical change, that's aimed at your client and your machine.

I think ZOS does care because this is a huge black mark for them, however people are expecting things which a lot of games have never been able to produce. We could take more checks away from the servers and place them back on the client (as per pre-lighting patch apparently) however then you'll also giving bots and CE users more powers again.

In any case, ZOS might just be too scared to touch the old code fearing they might break the game further.

It could also just be something which isn't possible.

EVE Online's devs recently said* that even though their servers are cutting edge win machines the game still crumbles during large battles because the code isn't designed in a way to be run on multiple processors. They would basically have to rewrite the game to solve "lag" and that's not a good investment for the company or the players.
*this is what I picked up from some Reddit threads and may not be accurate.

It could be ZOS is in the same position. They might understand the bottlenecks within the code but it's simply not viable to fix them.
That said they do have updates often to make improvements, however people expect each one of those improvements to be an instant fix which solves everything. Personally I am just glad we're not still in the age twelve people fighting causes people to be booted from the game.

Well. in EVE that happens with thousands of players participating in a battle -- not with a few hundred like in ESO.

They can only reach thousands because they slow the entire game down though via TiDi. Before that it worked exactly like ESO even with battles of hundreds, crippling lag, modules not working, black screens and boots from servers.

I'm stuck in a infinite loading screen right now on ps4 trying to go to wrothgar. Usually I get kicked off line when I get the unusually long loading screen. Message. Lol guess I can go make breakfast.

Keep the poll alive! need more votes.

Focus all themes related to performance in a single thread please. No need to make several, when we can focus on a single one.

[quote

You botched the post because you messed up the quote. Not what you said, just the post itself. And WOW are you an angry little fellow. Anyway the fact of the matter is that you are in the minority here. Everyone knows this game has had this same issue for a long time now. Now since its only been getting worse more people are getting pissed.

Your arguments are so damn outlandish. Dont tell me its not unplayable. HERE, FRIEND, let me tell you the same way i tell zos every now and again; COME to xbox NA, on a friday-saturday at prime time. Do that and then come and tell me"its not unplayable". Hell, do it ANY night of the week during prime time.

And another thing... This is a low cost? 15 bucks a month? all the money ive spent on the crown store? Ya 20 bucks for the base game is cheap but if not for people like me who spend money then this game goes down the gutter even more than it has. And im not having a "prop" (i assume you meant shot?) at the game, i love every part of this game except for the fact that i cant play it without lagging. My friends cant play it without lagging..

Oh and whos my buddy? You're getting to emotionally involved in this thread i think. You're just wrong. Agree to disagree i guess. And you're comparing this to google? What other mmos have you played? what other developers have you dealt with. Let me know your experience if you are going to tell me i shouldn't expect regular updates on a bug that has been here for years and its 100% game breaking.


And one more thing, i was thinking, what do you think would happen if google put out a product and a major part of it didnt work? How about if apple put out an iphone that was advertised to do everything an iphone does but you cant use the internet. nope no web browser no app store. how long do you think it would take for them to fix that??? [/quote]

OK. let's deal with your comments one by one.

"You botched up the post... Not what you said, just the post itself". Ok. So you have point of view. Great. Now lets see how you explain this. Ah you don't. Thus, proving my argument.

Second. I'm apparently angry. Nothing is further from the truth. I repeat again. I agree with you, (in principle). Again with the negative comments. Grow a pair and meet the arguments head on, rather than making inconsistent, unvalidated comments. Again, I AGREE with you. The game needs fixing. I put it in bold font last time but you obviously didn't see it so here - T H E G A M E I S S U E S N E E D A T T E N T I ON F R O M T H E D E V T E A M

I'm telling you, as a fact, that on XBOX EU, the game is not unplayable. I have played every day for 6 months, and whilst the game has had issues, it is not unplayable. Think about the word "unplayable". Do you understand the definition? The game has issues. WE all AGREE with this. But is not unplayable in its entirety. Yes PvP sucks. But that does not make the whole game unplayable. Just 5% of it. So 95% is playable and 5% isn't. Now based on these numbers - presuming you are in the USA, (based on the fact you mentioned the NA servers), do you watch 100% of the programming you are provided by your cable supplier? My guess is the answer is "no". This is because 5% doesn't meet your expectation. Yet you still pay your cable bill.

My conclusion will come shortly but there is so much more to discuss with your post. So here goes, (and please remember I don't result to insults or name calling once with my response).

"i tell zos every now and again; COME to xbox NA,". The point in my original post, and every post since, is that you need to offer the dev's constructive information. How is "COME to xbox NA" constructive? Giving them meaningful information for the issues you are having would be far more beneficial.

Next topic. You state "This is a low cost? 15 bucks a month? all the money ive spent on the crown store? Ya 20 bucks for the base game is cheap but if not for people like me who spend money then this game goes down the gutter even more than it has.". Ok. 15 bucks a month, or £8.99 in the UK is not a lot of money for a large percentage of the gaming population. The minimum wage, per hour for someone over the age of 25, in the UK, is £7.50 per hour. So, presuming you work 37.5 hours a week and a month is 4 weeks, then you earn, before tax, £1125.00 per "month". Based on these numbers, £8.99 per month equates to 0.8% of your monthly income. 0.8% is not a lot of money, (in principle). Presuming, though, that it is a lot of money then you wouldn't surely wouldn't spend it on a GAME but on something that was of benefit to your existence or the benefit of your significant others. I am lucky. £8.99 is not significant sum of money for me but I still want the same as you - i.e. the game issues to be fixed.. So again, I question your reasoning, (because you offer no constructive argument). As for the Crown store. There is not one person on the planet that FORCES you to spend money in the Crown store. Not one. At all. Ever. That is your CHOICE.

Next. You state "And you're comparing this to google? What other mmos have you played? what other developers have you dealt with. Let me know your experience if you are going to tell me i shouldn't expect regular updates on a bug that has been here for years and its 100% game breaking.". I may have mentioned, (presuming you have bothered to read my posts), that I design global cloud infrastructures for a living. Prior to working for my current employer, I have designed solutions for one of the top manufacturers and one of the top banks in the world. I have dealt with EVERY major IT company in the world. This is a fact. If you doubt this I will send you my resume. I currently work for one of the top 3 outsources globally, and a company that wins awards every year for being one of the top global employers. So, based on my experience alone, I can offer this - EVERY major IT company in the world releases product with certain "flaws". As an example, Microsoft offers their Azure cloud based platform, which has a number of limitations, from a design point of view. AWS addresses some of these design concerns but cannot offer the Business Continuity and reputation that Microsoft can. I know this as a FACT because this is my line of work. Working with Microsoft directly, along with Amazon and Google, gives me a reasonable perspective in to the infrastructure that lies behind any mass accessed IT environment. My designs have been presented and ratified by Microsoft, as an example. As I have always stated, I don't work with game developers, but I understand the technical challenges when hosting an application to be presented to multiple client operating systems, across the globe. I can actually evidence this with case studies if you need me to.

Two more to go.

First, I am not getting emotional. I am using experience and reason to defend a company that is getting a hard time. Despite the fact that I agree with your actual point, (if you even remember what it is), I still stand by my argument that saying "just fix it" will not allow the team to resolve the issues - and this is the only point I am trying to make. Remember, (again), that I agree with you that the games' issues need to be resolved.

Lastly. Almost every app on the Apple App Store is not at V 1.0. I connect to the App Store every week and I get between 5 -15 updates, on average. These aren't random apps, but apps that have a subscription service that I pay for. This is no different, at all, to ESO. In fact, my current MAC OS is at v 10.13.3. So, this means that have been 10 completely new releases, 13 major upgrades to that release and 3 minor "fixes". The same applies to Microsoft, Google, Activision, (for Call of Duty), Ubisoft, (for Assassins Creed), etc etc. Even my Washing Machine gets updates over the internet. You really need to read up on the way software, (and hardware), is released in the modern world. This is my job, It's not right but its the way the modern consumer, wants it to be.

In summary. ESO needs fixing. We all agree this is a statement of fact. All I am trying to say is it's not easy to fix something this complex. When you understand this you will cut the dev team some slack.

Kind Regards

... Googles "MMO Performance issues".

Results are in - every MMO has performance issues in 2018.

...Enjoys being called "ignorant" as this proves my point that you have still not made one constructive argument in your posts.

You are correct though that we will never agree on this issue by the looks of it. And the reason is this: It's a game, and games don't define my life. If a game is poor I will simply walk away, stop paying my subscription and play something else. However, the performance issues I have with the game do not make it a poor experience for me and it is especially not "terrible". Yes PvP sucks at times, yes dungeons suck at times, but if I get poor performance in an area I go and do something else or play something else. Life's too short to get stressed out by a game.

Good luck to you. I enjoyed debating this with you even though we are getting nowhere.