Don't nerf block cost

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Hutch679 · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Hutch679 · February 2018

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

The issue with block cost was pvp related, but all the pve players are cpming to complain.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Aedaryl · February 2018

The real builds that overperform in PvP are stamina 2h/1h&S with heavy attack as main form of sustain.

Theze builds have crazy mitigation from 33k+ armor and block. This is associated with crazy healing (troll king, vigor, rally or FM, lingering potion that also add major expedition + optional class heal like sorc surge or warden burst heal).

Theze build go with 2 damage set in heavy or with 1 damage set + 1 defensive set in medium. Hello 7h legion, happy you die next patch. Theze build have good sustain from heavies and very good damage.

Theze build are block based with stamina reduc cost/weapon damage glyphs.

What bring next patch ?

* A cheaper block cost for them because they never used block cost glyph.

* 100% more ressource return and a free stun on their 70% more damage heavy attacks ty new off balance changes.

Yes, perma block in PvP is on the troll builds that doesn't kill you.

Yes, the OP tanky damage dealer will just be EXTREMELY buffed by having even more tankiness and sustain.

Of course the gap between magicka non block build and 1h&S build is now even bigger than my 4nus.

Azarai · February 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

The issue with block cost was pvp related, but all the pve players are cpming to complain.

Right. Because even if you do not want to call it a nerf, then changing something in a mode (PvE) to solve a problem in a completely different game mode (PvP) is somewhat confusing. Do I want there to be changes to make tanking more rewarding and active? Of course I do. Is lag an issue in even Vet Dungeons and Trials, where I blocked seemingly after a hit should have connected and vice versa? Yes. People are learning to get better, but making an aspect of the game harder for the least played role is somewhat confusing to me.

Like I said, with some changes to dungeons and the tanking system, I would be more than happy to nerf permablocking, or close to it. But making changes without changing the other side of the equation, difficulty, seems a bit short-sided to me. Which is why forums are here, to discuss changes and give opinions.

Aedaryl · February 2018

Azarai wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

The issue with block cost was pvp related, but all the pve players are cpming to complain.

Right. Because even if you do not want to call it a nerf, then changing something in a mode (PvE) to solve a problem in a completely different game mode (PvP) is somewhat confusing. Do I want there to be changes to make tanking more rewarding and active? Of course I do. Is lag an issue in even Vet Dungeons and Trials, where I blocked seemingly after a hit should have connected and vice versa? Yes. People are learning to get better, but making an aspect of the game harder for the least played role is somewhat confusing to me.

Like I said, with some changes to dungeons and the tanking system, I would be more than happy to nerf permablocking, or close to it. But making changes without changing the other side of the equation, difficulty, seems a bit short-sided to me. Which is why forums are here, to discuss changes and give opinions.

You don't understand block cost glyph is not used by 90% of PvP player. The only people using them was troll 100% tank build that no one care expect in BG. Even with BG it's not a PvP nerf because BG are now no cp so trolls builds would anyway got a harder time there.

This is a PvE focus nerf, accept it, get good, and complain about the 1% pve content that's really impossible to deal without permablock.

Azarai · February 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Azarai wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

The issue with block cost was pvp related, but all the pve players are cpming to complain.

Right. Because even if you do not want to call it a nerf, then changing something in a mode (PvE) to solve a problem in a completely different game mode (PvP) is somewhat confusing. Do I want there to be changes to make tanking more rewarding and active? Of course I do. Is lag an issue in even Vet Dungeons and Trials, where I blocked seemingly after a hit should have connected and vice versa? Yes. People are learning to get better, but making an aspect of the game harder for the least played role is somewhat confusing to me.

Like I said, with some changes to dungeons and the tanking system, I would be more than happy to nerf permablocking, or close to it. But making changes without changing the other side of the equation, difficulty, seems a bit short-sided to me. Which is why forums are here, to discuss changes and give opinions.

You don't understand block cost glyph is not used by 90% of PvP player. The only people using them was troll 100% tank build that no one care expect in BG. Even with BG it's not a PvP nerf because BG are now no cp so trolls builds would anyway got a harder time there.

This is a PvE focus nerf, accept it, get good, and complain about the 1% pve content that's really impossible to deal without permablock.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I was referring to the post specifically, in that they described it as a nerf to PvP. It does seem to be a nerf to PvE, but I am more confused as to why, as tanks were not specifically overperforming. But there was a lot of talk on the threads about it in terms of PvP, which is where some of my confusion came from.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Azarai wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

The issue with block cost was pvp related, but all the pve players are cpming to complain.

Right. Because even if you do not want to call it a nerf, then changing something in a mode (PvE) to solve a problem in a completely different game mode (PvP) is somewhat confusing. Do I want there to be changes to make tanking more rewarding and active? Of course I do. Is lag an issue in even Vet Dungeons and Trials, where I blocked seemingly after a hit should have connected and vice versa? Yes. People are learning to get better, but making an aspect of the game harder for the least played role is somewhat confusing to me.

Like I said, with some changes to dungeons and the tanking system, I would be more than happy to nerf permablocking, or close to it. But making changes without changing the other side of the equation, difficulty, seems a bit short-sided to me. Which is why forums are here, to discuss changes and give opinions.

You don't understand block cost glyph is not used by 90% of PvP player. The only people using them was troll 100% tank build that no one care expect in BG. Even with BG it's not a PvP nerf because BG are now no cp so trolls builds would anyway got a harder time there.

This is a PvE focus nerf, accept it, get good, and complain about the 1% pve content that's really impossible to deal without permablock.

It's a PVE nerf, there isn't really a doubt about that. And it's less PVP conspiracy (Allthough PVP players keep blindly supporting this thinking it's gonna make they're lives easier, it isnt) and more ZOS doing what ZOS does best: Making a bad situation worse through very weird and counter-intuitive decisions that dnt really serve than to make things worse.

Aaaaand it's dumb. "Git gud" isn't really a factor into this anymore though. No ammount of skill is gonna overcome the game actively working against you like it has been at tanking for most of this time.

victoriana-blue · February 2018

Azarai wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Azarai wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

The issue with block cost was pvp related, but all the pve players are cpming to complain.

Right. Because even if you do not want to call it a nerf, then changing something in a mode (PvE) to solve a problem in a completely different game mode (PvP) is somewhat confusing. Do I want there to be changes to make tanking more rewarding and active? Of course I do. Is lag an issue in even Vet Dungeons and Trials, where I blocked seemingly after a hit should have connected and vice versa? Yes. People are learning to get better, but making an aspect of the game harder for the least played role is somewhat confusing to me.

Like I said, with some changes to dungeons and the tanking system, I would be more than happy to nerf permablocking, or close to it. But making changes without changing the other side of the equation, difficulty, seems a bit short-sided to me. Which is why forums are here, to discuss changes and give opinions.

You don't understand block cost glyph is not used by 90% of PvP player. The only people using them was troll 100% tank build that no one care expect in BG. Even with BG it's not a PvP nerf because BG are now no cp so trolls builds would anyway got a harder time there.

This is a PvE focus nerf, accept it, get good, and complain about the 1% pve content that's really impossible to deal without permablock.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I was referring to the post specifically, in that they described it as a nerf to PvP. It does seem to be a nerf to PvE, but I am more confused as to why, as tanks were not specifically overperforming. But there was a lot of talk on the threads about it in terms of PvP, which is where some of my confusion came from.

Because ZOS wants PvE tanks to stop permablocking, and have tried to stamp it out since at least Morrowind.

While lots of tanks were getting block costs of ~400 stamina/block, minmaxers in CWC are getting down to under 100 stamina/block and on a DK that made permablocking easy. So ZOS is changing the way block cost is calculated in Dragon Bones to "lower the ceiling" that minmaxers/end game players were able to reach and to try to reduce the gap between "average" and "vet trial leaderboard" tanks. (Note that the content isn't being adjusted to address why tanks need to permablock, just calculations to make permablocking harder.)

Toc de Malsvi · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

There's an above poster who points out bloodroot forge. I'll do one better and point out Mazzatun, and Velidreth from COS. We need permablock, or we need a great number of damage nerfs to the bosses in question.

Pick one. You cant have both.

You can perma block. I have tested this, you just probably won't be able to perma block and run Alkosh. But maybe you can even do that, I tested with a bosmer, an Argonian might have the extra sustain to be fine.

Hutch679 · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

aeowulf · February 2018

I dreamt about this last night, pretty sad eh? It was certainly after watching an episode of Vikings, and I went to sleep pretty right after. (Ragnar died, unhappy times, but then everyone dies one day)

*Maybe* block cost should be applied individually to everything it blocks. It would solve the 'multiple people vs 1' thing in PvP, and if balanced well would not affect PvE too much.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

When are you gonna get it's not geting fixed for you?

The cost is actually going to go down for people who dont run full block glyphs and I can guarentee you the people you face in battlegrounds are not using them.

Hutch679 · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

When are you gonna get it's not geting fixed for you?

The cost is actually going to go down for people who dont run full block glyphs and I can guarentee you the people you face in battlegrounds are not using them.

Right. Dude you don't get it lol. The problem is the perma block. Like when they stack nothing but block. There is no issue with block being reduced across the board otherwise. Come on man. This was already mentioned.... L2P issue clearly..

olsborg · February 2018

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

Hutch679 · February 2018

olsborg wrote: »

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

Not really. The can release block for a split second to cast then hold block again... solving nothing. Block cast would hurt PVE tanks especially

Qbiken · February 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

When are you gonna get it's not geting fixed for you?

The cost is actually going to go down for people who dont run full block glyphs and I can guarentee you the people you face in battlegrounds are not using them.

Right. Dude you don't get it lol. The problem is the perma block. Like when they stack nothing but block. There is no issue with block being reduced across the board otherwise. Come on man. This was already mentioned.... L2P issue clearly..

Overperforming damage-mitigation mechanics and heals is the problem. Not "perma-blocking"

olsborg wrote: »

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

Not really. As I´ve said, dmg-mitigation and overperforming healing is the issue. Most tanky players doesn´t sit like turtles and block-cast abilities anyway

code65536 · February 2018

olsborg wrote: »

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

LOL. That'd be a far more drastic and cataclysmic nerf to PvE than this tweak to block costs.

SirCritical · February 2018

Bowser wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Nox_Noir wrote: »

To everyone complaining about permablock I urge you to try and tank Bloodroot forge last boss hard mode. While all 3 bosses are there, theres not 1 second where it's safe to heavy attack.
As long as ZOS keep designing content like this, we NEED permablock.

I'm not even arguing that permablock is a stupid dull mechanic, yes it is of course - but some of the harder content would need to be adjusted to account for it's removal as well:
- There's just too many ridiculously hard hitting attacks that can one shot a TANK
- on some bosses like Earthgore amalgam and his sons these super heavy attacks also occur WAY too frequently
- the animations and telegraphs for these one shot mechanics are often too difficult to read, or not perfectly in sync with 'expected' timing (saint olms sometimes slaps you to death before his claw even touches the player and stuff like that)

Edit: Oh and P.S. may god have mercy on your soul if you try to tank with an Ice staff where the heavy attacks are almost 2 times slower.

Then you adjust the content but permablocking shouldn't be a thing in PvE or PvP. It takes the skill out to knowing when to block and when to just take damage, roll dodge, ect.

Do you honestly think they would look at every encounter across six trials and dozens of veteran dungeons to make adjustments making it easier for tanks?

Hm, yes. Why not? Or just lower base block cost and we won't whine (this much).

Hutch679 · February 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

When are you gonna get it's not geting fixed for you?

The cost is actually going to go down for people who dont run full block glyphs and I can guarentee you the people you face in battlegrounds are not using them.

Right. Dude you don't get it lol. The problem is the perma block. Like when they stack nothing but block. There is no issue with block being reduced across the board otherwise. Come on man. This was already mentioned.... L2P issue clearly..

Overperforming damage-mitigation mechanics and heals is the problem. Not "perma-blocking"

olsborg wrote: »

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

Not really. As I´ve said, dmg-mitigation and overperforming healing is the issue. Most tanky players doesn´t sit like turtles and block-cast abilities anyway

I disagree. Yes some of the calculations are an issue, but the fact that people can infinitely block is DEFINITELY an issue you can't really argue.

pelle412 · February 2018

There are fights in veteran trials where a tank has to perma block or be vaporized or get knocked through doors without being able to get out, but trial teams will adapt as there are ways to recover stamina. This change appears to have been made to address complains about PvP blocking. I never heard anyone complain that block costs were too low in PvE.

xaraan · February 2018

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

The change to block cost won't really affect PvE tanks as you don't permablock on them for the most part. The base cost of blocking actually got reduced which helps PvE tanks once they get used to weaving a light attack or 2 in and not 100% block casting.

Besides, resource management is a skill to be learned and Tanks can be assisted in it by shards if really necessary.

This is mostly true.

And could be completely true if zos re-worked a few dungeons/bosses/fights in the game. There are a few instances here and there (in high end content) where the lack of block cost reduction is super noticeable. Too many one shots in the game, especially for dps that require even trash mobs to be taunted, but after you've taunted a half dozen mobs, having stam to block isn't always there. And if you run out of stam, some of those one shots will even take you down as a tank with max resist, even on non boss fights.

And in some of those fights, you cannot drop block to make a heavy. Pull the three minataurs before the last boss in Falkreath Hold, you've burned 4-5k in stam with the three taunts if you used the good debuff to take away their armor, then block a few shots, and you are out of stam and cannot make a heavy attack b/c they are all doing power attacks at different times. If you don't taunt them all, they will kill the dps pretty easily. If you don't have excellent dps with you, you'll run out of stam real fast - I actually am usually on the wire by the time they are dying. Or vmaw, hold the two hander that breaks your armor and drop block to heavy and get spun or charged by the shield guy the other tank is holding near you and it's a one shot. There are just frankly, several situations that don't allow dropping block at all, and some that make it very very difficult in spots that it shouldn't be. I've been testing a lot of stuff the last few weeks with block cost in vHM dungeons and trials and it doesn't mix well with some existing content.

It will also be much more impactful on the more common player. The high end groups won't notice b/c stuff gets burned down fast, or even whole mechanics get skipped. And unfortunately, much of the PvE feedback they get are from those top end guilds that will tell them something isn't as bad as it is because they only see that side. But there are several instances in the game that could be looked at to give a little more leway for heavy attacks or taking away a need to taunt a trash mob, etc. Problem is, they won't do it.

Frankly, if the change they are making will push tanks to drop jewelry block cost reduction completely in place of some other jewelry enchant, then it's over nerfed. There should be a gray area in there where maybe you do want to give it up for some other benefit, but also where it provides a good benefit and is something you would miss if you gave it up. What they should do if they insist on this nerf in the way it's calculated, is buff the numbers and make it give more for block and bash cost, I'd even add a break free cost reduction to those other two cost reductions.

I also don't think all the blame is on pvp. The problem with pvp tanks is the players that can be super tanky and do good damage, there isn't anything wrong with someone just being a tank and watching their friends die and then getting focused down last, but when you feel like you aren't doing any damage to someone and then they can burst you down, that's where an issue pops up. So I think this block cost is aimed at both pvp and pve, but I don't think it's being done right (especially if they also plan on nerfing heavy armor sets like they already nerfed the damage passive from HA and are nerfing 7th legion - they don't need to take away their ability to be tanky on top of damage, just one or the other and IMO, tanks should be tanky, not dps-y).

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

When are you gonna get it's not geting fixed for you?

The cost is actually going to go down for people who dont run full block glyphs and I can guarentee you the people you face in battlegrounds are not using them.

Right. Dude you don't get it lol. The problem is the perma block. Like when they stack nothing but block. There is no issue with block being reduced across the board otherwise. Come on man. This was already mentioned.... L2P issue clearly..

Overperforming damage-mitigation mechanics and heals is the problem. Not "perma-blocking"

olsborg wrote: »

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

Not really. As I´ve said, dmg-mitigation and overperforming healing is the issue. Most tanky players doesn´t sit like turtles and block-cast abilities anyway

I disagree. Yes some of the calculations are an issue, but the fact that people can infinitely block is DEFINITELY an issue you can't really argue.

Uh, yes. Yes we can argue it. This is not a 'world is round' situation here.

1. Again, the nerf isn't aimed at PVP. The people in full bloodspawn with seventh legion are gonna still -be there-, and they are not going away. And in PVE, how is permablock an issue when the game requires it at more than a few points? It isn't. That's an emotional response, not a rational thought process you came to.

2. They will likely adapt other means of mitigation like healing in order to make up for what they lost. And there is plenty of ways to do that. There's video's of people making cheese tanks with the templar shield for crap sake, it's gonna happen.

You just do not know what your talking about, your not fit to speak on the issue. Your arguing off misconceptions. You didn't come to these positions rationally, so you cant be rationalized out of them.

code65536 · February 2018

One thing that I really do want to see is changing how the regen penalty is implemented. The penalty timer resets each time you block, so you need to drop for more than 2s before you can get that regen. This severely limits the tactical blocking that they want to push, and suggestions that tanks just "weave in light attacks" are laughable.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

code65536 wrote: »

One thing that I really do want to see is changing how the regen penalty is implemented. The penalty timer resets each time you block, so you need to drop for more than 2s before you can get that regen. This severely limits the tactical blocking that they want to push, and suggestions that tanks just "weave in light attacks" are laughable.

Yet more evidence of ZOS's disconnect with it's own stated goal.

Derra · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

One thing that I really do want to see is changing how the regen penalty is implemented. The penalty timer resets each time you block, so you need to drop for more than 2s before you can get that regen. This severely limits the tactical blocking that they want to push, and suggestions that tanks just "weave in light attacks" are laughable.

Yet more evidence of ZOS's disconnect with it's own stated goal.

This is simply wrong and can be factchecked quite easily.

Hold block at half stamina and block / drop block in 0.5s intervals. If it were true you´d never be able to get stamina back doing that. Yet it´s observable that you will get stamina back because block does NOT reset the regen tick it simply halts the timer.

Uninformed opinions are uninformed and this is why the devs don´t listen to the forums. People just parrot hearsay and know nothing.

@code65536 @Doctordarkspawn go test things before posting.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Derra wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

One thing that I really do want to see is changing how the regen penalty is implemented. The penalty timer resets each time you block, so you need to drop for more than 2s before you can get that regen. This severely limits the tactical blocking that they want to push, and suggestions that tanks just "weave in light attacks" are laughable.

Yet more evidence of ZOS's disconnect with it's own stated goal.

This is simply wrong and can be factchecked quite easily.

Hold block at half stamina and block / drop block in 0.5s intervals. If it were true you´d never be able to get stamina back doing that. Yet it´s quite easily observable that you will get stamina back because block does NOT reset the regen tick it simply halts the timer.

Uninformed opinions are uninformed and this is why the devs don´t listen to the forums. People just parrot hearsay and know nothing.

@code65536 @Doctordarkspawn go test things before posting.

I have. On live. Alot.

And the timer frequently resets more than you seem to -think- it does.

It's also such a specific conditional thing, that it's probably likely prone to conflict with other game mechanics.

Derra · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

One thing that I really do want to see is changing how the regen penalty is implemented. The penalty timer resets each time you block, so you need to drop for more than 2s before you can get that regen. This severely limits the tactical blocking that they want to push, and suggestions that tanks just "weave in light attacks" are laughable.

Yet more evidence of ZOS's disconnect with it's own stated goal.

This is simply wrong and can be factchecked quite easily.

Hold block at half stamina and block / drop block in 0.5s intervals. If it were true you´d never be able to get stamina back doing that. Yet it´s quite easily observable that you will get stamina back because block does NOT reset the regen tick it simply halts the timer.

Uninformed opinions are uninformed and this is why the devs don´t listen to the forums. People just parrot hearsay and know nothing.

@code65536 @Doctordarkspawn go test things before posting.

I have. On live. Alot.

And the timer frequently resets more than you seem to -think- it does.

It's also such a specific conditional thing, that it's probably likely prone to conflict with other game mechanics.

I´ve not managed to have it act inconsistent over the course of 10 minutes of blocking/dropping block (repeating macro of 1s block 1s blockdrop).

My block uptime was 49% and my stamina gain over the 10 minutes was 408 rec (204/s combatmetrics -845 base rec). It does not line up 100% correctly but it comes veeeeery close to the result you´d expect (430 that would be).

I´ve also witnessed ticks "missing" but then i had two come within a very short timeframe aswell - so while there might be something not working 100% consistently with the mechanic it has positive and negative deviations.

The statement that you simply don´t get any rec at all is none the less false and i also haven´t been able to reproduce a scenario where you get significantly less recovery than you would expect on the current live server version.

Qbiken · February 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

So what I'm gathering from this thread is that

1. Perma blocking in PVP wasn't that big of an issue because of over healing
2. PVE tanks need L2P
3. PVE players are junkies

So why was the nerf called for? Did Veteran content bosses email ZOS and complain about tanks being too tanky? *shrugs

BTW, 15k dps tanks...*walks away and laughs

I'm really suprised at the 'junkie' bit. As if unhealthy obsession is limited to our side of the game. Que?

Seems to be the pattern, I guess. More evidence PVE and PVP cannot co-exist.

I throw my hands up. This playerbase, is the biggest hurdle to this game geting better. Even moreso than ZOS's sometimes blind eye to our feedback. It's the fact that if they accept feedback from -anyone-, someone will come out of the woodwork to bash them, and the people attempting to give it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

*Has a habit of mixing up PVP and PVE out of reflex muscle memory*

So apply that statement to PVE, instead of PVP. Twohander is great in PVP, terrible in PVE, because PVP values burst damage more.

Also, when you make a simple mistake in phrasing I dont go crazy and call people to laugh at -you-, do I? @Hutch679 you've even done it in this thread! this is what I'm talking about. You're not here to discuss a solution, given why you just sat there and looked for something to shame over. So why are you here?

The solution has already been made though dude. They increased block cost.

Have fun crying next patch when the problem does not go away.

Wonder what the next OP tank build will be. Maybe something with livewire or leeching plate.

I'll be fine, I've allready started adapting my build, but you? I'm guessing you wont be given you feel the need to have the game changed rather than adopt a counterstrategy.

Well considering they are fixing block lol I'm pretty okay. Problem solved!

When are you gonna get it's not geting fixed for you?

The cost is actually going to go down for people who dont run full block glyphs and I can guarentee you the people you face in battlegrounds are not using them.

Right. Dude you don't get it lol. The problem is the perma block. Like when they stack nothing but block. There is no issue with block being reduced across the board otherwise. Come on man. This was already mentioned.... L2P issue clearly..

Overperforming damage-mitigation mechanics and heals is the problem. Not "perma-blocking"

olsborg wrote: »

Remove blockcasting and problem is solved in pvp.

Not really. As I´ve said, dmg-mitigation and overperforming healing is the issue. Most tanky players doesn´t sit like turtles and block-cast abilities anyway

I disagree. Yes some of the calculations are an issue, but the fact that people can infinitely block is DEFINITELY an issue you can't really argue.

A build that can block "infinitely" will never kill anyone, so that´s not an issue (maybe in chaosball mode in BG). The scary builds are those who block only when needed and then turn the fight around and do damage, but those builds aren´t permablocking builds. These builds get their survivability from other sources than blocking. I suggest you read this thread before commenting further:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1