newtinmpls wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

LOL, this thread got derailed quickly!

Quit talkin' bout trains, dammit!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw

SilverIce58 wrote: »

In order to deal both physical and magical damage, don't you have to also spend both stamina and magicka?

Shhh.... no one tell him that poison is actually physical damage.

LeagueTroll wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

You could've just said "Why Hybrid is a bad idea".

Getting kinda tired of people using the word for life threatening illnesses in this way.

Totally agree. Not sure how that word came to be used in this deplorable way.

Because hybrid build requires a higher APM rate due to more skills. Thus more likely to cause physical pain.

Everyone is still limited to 12 skills (6 per bar). Exception for Overload Sorcerers.

DoctorESO wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

You could've just said "Why Hybrid is a bad idea".

Getting kinda tired of people using the word for life threatening illnesses in this way.

Totally agree. Not sure how that word came to be used in this deplorable way.

Because hybrid build requires a higher APM rate due to more skills. Thus more likely to cause physical pain.

Everyone is still limited to 12 skills (6 per bar). Exception for Overload Sorcerers.

Read what i said. Skills like inner light ppl just slot for stat. No one will slot it if dmg no longer link to max stat.

Yes, some people will still slot Inner Light.

For what? Waste slot gain nothing? Surely top tier dps won’t do that.

No, for max Magicka and Spell Crit.
Also Empower if you cast it with the Mages Guild passives.

LeagueTroll wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

This thread is a bubonic plague.
See, I can say stupid stuff too.

Honestly, I feel like someone should ask you to point out on a doll where the Hybrid touched you or something.
You really have a hate-on for something that would literally effect you in no way at all.

If you don't like the idea of Damage being separated from Resources, argue against that.
Don't throw an entire playstyle under the bus because it's too complicated for you to wrap your tiny mind around.

If you want to block people from using the game they paid for to play the way they want using systems in said game that were established to help them achieve this goal - Well, you're just being a jerk.. A Pure Jerk. No hybrid Jerk here.
If you want to avoid large sweeping changes to the game's system that can have a detrimental effect on the way you play, that's more understandable - And of course this is obviously the wrong way to go about that particular argument. That would just make you a hybrid Jerk/Concerned Player venting in the wrong way.

There are much more leveled and balanced ways to address things you do and do not like in the game - None of them involve making light of Cancer or throwing around toxic vitriol.

Read my stuff. Hybrid being meta will affect me in every way possible. I will have a much much more difficult time to do 85% of the top dps output. In fact, with more complex rotation. I might not even reach 75% of top dps.

Don’t call me a jerk, i am the one want to make the game more noob friendly by supporting current ‘less button’ meta. And clearly some people’s attitude is: because i suck, i want others to suck too.

Seeing as how every version of every class has it's own Meta/BiS setup, I'm going to say that having 5 new Meta setups won't really effect you in any way, shape, or form.
Making the game require less thought and focus to preform a perfect rotation isn't more "noob friendly", it's just "lazy" friendly.
Even if Hybrid builds end up outputting close to the same DPS as a Pure build, they will still only be as common as people who want to go through the effort of using them.

You're basically arguing that you'll have more competition for Top DPS output, and that's the whole reason other people shouldn't be allowed to have fun. I'm surprised you're not talking about this in the PTS forums.

Frankly, if you're threatened by the idea of a Hybrid Build matching you in DPS and having a chance at out-preforming you, you really are a the only [Insert Offensive and Flippant Use of Life Threatening Illness here] around.

I do hope to see you out-paced in DPS and every other metric people use to determine an end-game build so that you can be left behind while the rest of us try to enjoy ourselves.

pauli133 wrote: »

I really, really think you need to stop using terms you clearly don't understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287x77DDols

Runefang wrote: »

Do min-maxers care what builds they use exactly? Aside from some general preferences they just want to use strong builds.

Do people who want their 'sword and spell' hybrid builds care about min-maxing? Generally they want to play 'their own way' and experience what the game has to offer.

Seems like most people should be happy with the game right now.

Obviously most people fall somewhere inbetween those extremes.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Do min-maxers care what builds they use exactly? Aside from some general preferences they just want to use strong builds.

Do people who want their 'sword and spell' hybrid builds care about min-maxing? Generally they want to play 'their own way' and experience what the game has to offer.

Seems like most people should be happy with the game right now.

I think they would be if the purists would stop getting wrecked by hybrids in PVP and the hybrids stop getting kicked in PVE.

But as there are causes for them to moan about something, it's "quick Batman to the Forum-mobile!"

It's barely possible to compete with pure builds in PvP and it's pretty much the only thing such a hybrid build can focus on, which ironically makes it feel a lot more limited in playstyle than a pure build.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

I am speaking about what I think the differences should be for hybrid compared to pure anything really, not just dps.

Except you're also leaving out the things that purists have that synergize well for them, or neglecting to realize that specializing means having weaknesses that current purists do not. Hybrids perform well in other games not because they stack advantages but because they eliminate weaknesses. Purists are the ones that stack advantages and it often comes with a gaping class flaw.

That concept only applies to games with a wide array of resistances. ESO's for dummies approach prevents that. Bosses only have spell resistance (applies to fire, lightning, ice, magic) and physical resistance (applies to physical, poison and disease). You can effectively make a specialized build in, let's say, poison damage, and have no downside, except for the fact that Endless Hail does physical damage, and if you're not using Endless Hail with a MA bow you might as well go get yourself a gimp suit.

The problem with hybrids is not the lack of tools to develop, is the lack of need to have hybrids.

There's no situation where a hybrid is useful, compared to a specialized one, therefore a hybrid is a gimmick.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

IA pure DPS should always and substantially outdps any hybrid, IMHO.

Not so, pure DPS can output either strong sustained DPS or strong burst DPS or strong damage over time stacking or (in other games) strong physical but no elemental dmg and run into barricades of differing resistances. Pure DPS should never be able to outperform hybrids in EVERY area, only in the area they specialized in. Hybrids outperforming purists in games comes from them spreading their specialties to more than one area while purists stack their advantages in a very particular style of DPS that can be outperformed when multiple areas are stacked.

Read the previous point.

TL;DR; not in ESO.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

A pure tank should be able to absorb and sustain himself through more damage from all sources then a hybrid, IMHO.

Again not so, pure tanks specialize in one particular style of tanking, whether it be mitigation, dodge chance, block capacity, self-healing, or aggro generation. In games like EverQuest, there were tanks that featured varying degrees of each of these, and ESO has varying tank builds as well that sport differing amounts of support skills. Heck, it's currently meta in ESO to use a build similar to the Shadowknight where the tank focuses on DEBUFFING the enemy with gear sets like Alkosh and fracture or supporting allies with War Horn. That is in no way a purist tank who focuses exclusively on damage absorption. Paladins heal better but have weak aggro while Warriors have top notch aggro but need better healers. People use whatever class they fancy for their personal meta but that doesn't mean the purists are "weak" at their specialty. It just means people prefer someone who brings more utility at the cost of less specialization.

Every "pure tank" is a hybrid.

The stats are split, the points are not stacked on one stat, and the tank game play relies on the use of magicka skills + stamina skills. The pools are generally split in 20k/20k, and except for very specific situations (e.g. Warrior's thousand cuts), can absorb and sustain themselves. You block and taunt with stamina, you buff and debuff with magicka, you sustain with magicka AND stamina.

I'm talking about trial tanks, ofc. I'm not interested in dungeon gimmicks or dps that can swap to a tank spec.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

A pure healer should always be able to put out more healing in a more efficient way then a hybrid, IMHO.

They already do, in most games the pure healer can heal extremely efficiently, having the best heal per mana ratios and often the ability to fully heal in a single spell. What he can't do is stack heal over times to prevent the constant healing necessity, or AOE heal while dealing damage to an enemy, or putting up bubble wards that PREVENT damage in the first place. Specializing in healing efficiency as a purist makes you great at healing. It doesn't make you a great HEALER. Healers use multiple tools to do their jobs effectively and the reason you'll find games where people prefer the hybrid healer is because he brings more to the table in terms of utility than a pure healer who relies on a one trick gimmick.

Please stop talking about healers, both of you.

A classless build with no stats and gear can heal effectively. NPCs can heal effectively. Healing is nothing, ESO's healing is a joke. A good healer buffs the group and debuffs the enemies. That's the whole point.

The "pure healer" spec should really be called "support" cause that's what it is. SPC buffs the group, Worm provides sustain, Mending has an aoe debuff. That is, of course, on top of having the best heal per mana ratios and the ability to fully heal in a single spell plus ground aoe heals, hots and forms of damage prevention.

If you want proof, have a look at this:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/349697/hybrid-class-confirmed-worlds-first-stamina-magplar/p1

I'm gonna tell you a secret: You can't heal past max health, so if you're anywhere past 10k hps you're overhealing.

Don't tell anyone.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Kwik1 wrote: »

Now I am not saying hybrids shouldn't exist, they just should be as good in those respective classes. A hybrid tank should have a harder time tanking tougher bosses, but on the flip side they should be able to pump out more DPS then a pure tank. A hybrid healer should be less healing but maybe more dps. To me that is what a hybrid is.

Or the hybrid tank will have an easier time tanking bosses that deal magic damage because he's not stacking physical resistance. The hybrid tank will have an easier time tanking bosses that require excessive movement because he can speed boost or heal himself when the healers are busy. The hybrid tank may even benefit the DPS better on some fights because he can supply them with shields that negate damage they're taking as opposed to stacking all the "tankiness" on himself. Same with healers and DPS... it's not that they're "better" than their purist versions at something, it's that they have the jack of all trades edge that when combined can make them perform better at a role under ideal circumstances.

Every pure tank is a hybrid. It was worth repeating.

You should really inform yourself before starting a discussion.

Just saying.

BTW, just to add to the discussion:

You won't be able to make a viable hybrid until you understand what makes a hybrid viable.

Asking the devs to radically change game mechanics to allow you to make the hybrid you want will only end in disappointment.

Hybrids are very viable in a lot of scenarios, first and foremost PvP, where you actually have to adapt to your opponent's play style and resistances, and defenses.

The moment you try to make a Hybrid working the same way as a specialized build (i.e. do the same dps with the same logic) you will fail spectacularly.

Hope this helps.
Safe travels.


PS - Hybrids are not viable... well, I guess I didn't get the memo.