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Why hybrid is bad
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VilniusNastavnik✭✭✭✭✭QQ moar.Active Toons:
NA - VilniusNastavnik - Magsorc DPS - Altmer
NA - Ko'h Nehko'h - Stamblade Archer - Khajit
NA - Arwyn Winterlight - MagPlar Healer - Breton
NA - Urog Blackfang - DK Tank - Orc
NA - Elen Windsong - Stamsorc DPS - Bosmer
NA - Eats-Strange-Fungus - Magden HealzTank- Argonian
NA - Harwyn Northwind - MagWarden DPS - High Elf
NA - Raises-Many-Families - Necro HealzTank - Argonian
Picture of my Active Toons.
Location: Australia - Wollongong, NSW - Sydney.
Obligatory ESO Fashion website plug: Vil's Portfolio0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »So because people stink at pure builds my hybrid should pull 12 thousand damage per second less than my pure build? I'm not following the chain of logic here.
Inb4 "hybrids should do less damage": absolutely, but more like 5k less, not more than double that. People (correctly) moan over warden doing 5k less than other dps specs.
I said in another post that my personal opinion is that hybrids should do 30-40% less then a pure spec.
If the pure spec is doing 30k then that would be 9k-12k less so that's about right.
Hybrids should be much less since they tend to be more surviveable. Pure specs become glass cannons in a lot of situations and need to have substantially more DPS to show for it.
No to hybrids being anywhere near a pure spec.
And if a hybrid was bringing gross survivability or excellent utility I'd be okay with that too, but they're not.
The bar I got 24k on had no heal, no mitigation, and one synergy (Shards) while pulling less damage than a build with blade cloak, vigor, and two support sets.
It is laughably easy to detect people who don't try to build hybrids and armchair their theoretical advantages. PvP is a different story, with a lot of effort and skill they can compete.Edited by DocFrost72 on February 4, 2018 8:51PM4 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
This game is already difficult enough, at least i still have not done any dlc trial hard mode. you over achievers who run around with your vas hm silver skin, really should understand not everyone has amazing animation cancel skills, most of us can’t possibly master 10 dots rotations.0 -
JamuThatsWho✭✭✭✭✭
✭"I can't hybrid, so no-one else should be able to!"
Good talk, OP.@JamuThatsWho - PC EU - CP2100
Main:
Vasiir-jo - Khajiit Magicka Necromancer, AD
Alts:Sul-Mael Hlarothran - Dunmer Magicka Sorcerer, EP
Ushaar-Ixaht - Argonian Magicka Nightblade, DC
Rorbakh gro-Khraag - Orc Stamina Templar, AD
Anduuroon - Altmer Magicka Warden, EP
Travanius Braelia - Imperial Stamina Dragonknight, DC
Daeralon - Bosmer Stamina Arcanist, AD9 -
JamuThatsWho✭✭✭✭✭
✭@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
I mean, you COULD always cast Inner Light for Empower, assuming you have the Mages Guild passives.@JamuThatsWho - PC EU - CP2100
Main:
Vasiir-jo - Khajiit Magicka Necromancer, AD
Alts:Sul-Mael Hlarothran - Dunmer Magicka Sorcerer, EP
Ushaar-Ixaht - Argonian Magicka Nightblade, DC
Rorbakh gro-Khraag - Orc Stamina Templar, AD
Anduuroon - Altmer Magicka Warden, EP
Travanius Braelia - Imperial Stamina Dragonknight, DC
Daeralon - Bosmer Stamina Arcanist, AD0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭JamuThatsWho wrote: »"I can't hybrid, so no-one else should be able to!"
Good talk, OP.
Well, yes. On top of that, most of the ones want hybrid, will suck too. This only make the skill gap bigger.
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Feidam✭✭✭SilverIce58 wrote: »@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
I agree, altho ironically, I use bound aegis for the resistances/more magicka.
I’m sure we all do because that is how it currently designed. It makes no sense to me though.0 -
Ihatenightblades✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »So because people stink at pure builds my hybrid should pull 12 thousand damage per second less than my pure build? I'm not following the chain of logic here.
Inb4 "hybrids should do less damage": absolutely, but more like 5k less, not more than double that. People (correctly) moan over warden doing 5k less than other dps specs.
I said in another post that my personal opinion is that hybrids should do 30-40% less then a pure spec.
If the pure spec is doing 30k then that would be 9k-12k less so that's about right.
Hybrids should be much less since they tend to be more surviveable. Pure specs become glass cannons in a lot of situations and need to have substantially more DPS to show for it.
No to hybrids being anywhere near a pure spec.
Im confused who ever said hybrids are even close to pure dd? Hybrid tanks/healers are cool and interesting and can be even more useful than a pure tank in vdsa for example.
A warden perma frost tank can do amazing things in vdsa that a stam dk tank just cant.
I never run with a healer in vdsa so the warden utility is amazing and i only seen this tank go down once and it was because we forgot to interrupt the blue centerion in one of later stages.
A pure blocking tank isnt really needed for dungeons and vdsa since nothing really one shots besides few bosses in dlc dungeons.
As for dps let me know when a hybrid can pull 40.6k dps solo
Edited by Ihatenightblades on February 4, 2018 9:37PM0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »LOL, this thread got derailed quickly!
Anyway, I think you would hear a lot less crying for hybrids if Stamina and Magicka were balanced a lot more closely. Right now, Stamina is a lot more powerful except in a zerg.
No I don't think it was.
OPs use of the word "Cancer" was uncalled for.
He compared something in a game to a life threatening illness that has killed countless people.
It'd be like saying saying; "People who use hybrid builds are Nazis"
See?Edited by Iccotak on February 4, 2018 9:38PM4 -
Feidam✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
This game is already difficult enough, at least i still have not done any dlc trial hard mode. you over achievers who run around with your vas hm silver skin, really should understand not everyone has amazing animation cancel skills, most of us can’t possibly master 10 dots rotations.
Then don’t. Nevermind that i’d doubt you’d see someone running a ten dot build. You’d still want utility skills. Just stop with the strawman arguments.3 -
Feidam✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »JamuThatsWho wrote: »"I can't hybrid, so no-one else should be able to!"
Good talk, OP.
Well, yes. On top of that, most of the ones want hybrid, will suck too. This only make the skill gap bigger.
Actually there are some really good players that hybrid. You just don’t see them dungeons etc because people kick them out. There are just as many bad pure players as there would be bad hybrid players. The simple issue is you do not like hybrids. So no one should have one.5 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
This game is already difficult enough, at least i still have not done any dlc trial hard mode. you over achievers who run around with your vas hm silver skin, really should understand not everyone has amazing animation cancel skills, most of us can’t possibly master 10 dots rotations.
Then don't do that content. Not all content is for everyone. Challenges exist because people WANT THEM. If you want to run the content on an easier difficulty, that exists for that reason! MMOs used to have only one difficulty and it was Hard mode. They added Normal mode and Impossible mode for people who wanted less or more challenge.2 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
This game is already difficult enough, at least i still have not done any dlc trial hard mode. you over achievers who run around with your vas hm silver skin, really should understand not everyone has amazing animation cancel skills, most of us can’t possibly master 10 dots rotations.
Then don’t. Nevermind that i’d doubt you’d see someone running a ten dot build. You’d still want utility skills. Just stop with the strawman arguments.
Lol, without passive sloting max stat boost, pretty obv that 10 dots build will come up. Fine 9 dots build cuz u need a dmg shield. Still much harder than my 4 dots + heavy attack mag sorc build.0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
This game is already difficult enough, at least i still have not done any dlc trial hard mode. you over achievers who run around with your vas hm silver skin, really should understand not everyone has amazing animation cancel skills, most of us can’t possibly master 10 dots rotations.
Then don't do that content. Not all content is for everyone. Challenges exist because people WANT THEM. If you want to run the content on an easier difficulty, that exists for that reason! MMOs used to have only one difficulty and it was Hard mode. They added Normal mode and Impossible mode for people who wanted less or more challenge.
What about i want the skin and gear, and intend to clear those?0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »Seeing a lot pro hybrid posts lately. Things like unlink dmg from max attributes. Personally, I am very against hybrid build. It is just too complicated. If max mag no longer affect mag dps. No one will run inner light, mag will have 2 more skills added to rotation. Complex rotation will only benefit higher skilled players more. Most of the ppl who cry about their crappy hybrid build not viable now will likely cry more if legit hybrid is viable. These ppl can’t even do easy stuff, most of them just want to be able to spam both snipe and breath of life.
Was there some changes that I missed ? As far as I know The more stamina you have the more dmg stamina based skill do. Same for magicka ones. And that is why people say that hybrids are not as good as "pure" stamina / magicka builds - because when you split your attributes your skills become less effective."If max mag no longer affect mag dps"
You are right about that. It is much harder to get a good hybrid build to work. Mostly because you need more "stuff". Both weapon & spell crit (both stats instead of one). So you need to sacrifice something to get that. Not to mention CP..."It is just too complicated"0 -
DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »
Because hybrid build requires a higher APM rate due to more skills. Thus more likely to cause physical pain.
Everyone is still limited to 12 skills (6 per bar). Exception for Overload Sorcerers.LeagueTroll wrote: »
Because hybrid build requires a higher APM rate due to more skills. Thus more likely to cause physical pain.
Everyone is still limited to 12 skills (6 per bar). Exception for Overload Sorcerers.
Read what i said. Skills like inner light ppl just slot for stat. No one will slot it if dmg no longer link to max stat.
Yes, some people will still slot Inner Light.0 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »What about i want the skin and gear, and intend to clear those?
The gear drops from normal mode. Legendary jewelry is available through the PVP merchant. The skin and achievements are rewards for people who bested the challenge. You don't get the trophy unless you win the tournament. Some things need to exist for the challenge seekers to strive for or it's a meaningless accomplishment with no prize at the end.0 -
WakeYourGhost✭✭✭✭✭This thread is a bubonic plague.
See, I can say stupid stuff too.
Honestly, I feel like someone should ask you to point out on a doll where the Hybrid touched you or something.
You really have a hate-on for something that would literally effect you in no way at all.
If you don't like the idea of Damage being separated from Resources, argue against that.
Don't throw an entire playstyle under the bus because it's too complicated for you to wrap your tiny mind around.
If you want to block people from using the game they paid for to play the way they want using systems in said game that were established to help them achieve this goal - Well, you're just being a jerk.. A Pure Jerk. No hybrid Jerk here.
If you want to avoid large sweeping changes to the game's system that can have a detrimental effect on the way you play, that's more understandable - And of course this is obviously the wrong way to go about that particular argument. That would just make you a hybrid Jerk/Concerned Player venting in the wrong way.
There are much more leveled and balanced ways to address things you do and do not like in the game - None of them involve making light of Cancer or throwing around toxic vitriol.7 -
DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WakeYourGhost wrote: »This thread is a bubonic plague.
See, I can say stupid stuff too.
Honestly, I feel like someone should ask you to point out on a doll where the Hybrid touched you or something.
You really have a hate-on for something that would literally effect you in no way at all.
If you don't like the idea of Damage being separated from Resources, argue against that.
Don't throw an entire playstyle under the bus because it's too complicated for you to wrap your tiny mind around.
If you want to block people from using the game they paid for to play the way they want using systems in said game that were established to help them achieve this goal - Well, you're just being a jerk.. A Pure Jerk. No hybrid Jerk here.
If you want to avoid large sweeping changes to the game's system that can have a detrimental effect on the way you play, that's more understandable - And of course this is obviously the wrong way to go about that particular argument. That would just make you a hybrid Jerk/Concerned Player venting in the wrong way.
There are much more leveled and balanced ways to address things you do and do not like in the game - None of them involve making light of Cancer or throwing around toxic vitriol.
I agree that we should stop using "cancer" in the way it's being used in this thread. I wonder if it will ever happen, though.2 -
Feidam✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »@LeagueTroll then they can redesign inner light. I have always found it stupid that people are slotting skills for passives only and not actually utilizing said skill.
This game is already difficult enough, at least i still have not done any dlc trial hard mode. you over achievers who run around with your vas hm silver skin, really should understand not everyone has amazing animation cancel skills, most of us can’t possibly master 10 dots rotations.
Then don't do that content. Not all content is for everyone. Challenges exist because people WANT THEM. If you want to run the content on an easier difficulty, that exists for that reason! MMOs used to have only one difficulty and it was Hard mode. They added Normal mode and Impossible mode for people who wanted less or more challenge.
What about i want the skin and gear, and intend to clear those?
Then you will do what is required to complete that content. It’s that simple. It is not a hybrids fault if you can’t meet the dps requirements. Even so I suspect your the arguments you have been using are mute. If you can animation cancel with 3skills you can do it with 10. It’s the same freaking rotation of skill/light attack. Hell a lot of the content doesn’t even require you animation cancel. You can easily bypass most checks without it with decent builds. Animation cancelling just let’s you push it that much faster.
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ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stovahkiin wrote: »
I mean I understand, it's just an internet fad to call something someone thinks is bad as "Cancer", to place emphasis behind their feelings. However, when you've gone through 6 months of Chemotherapy to survive actual Stage 3 Cancer yourself...CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!4 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »LOL, this thread got derailed quickly!
Quit talkin' bout trains, dammit!!Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
Kwik1✭✭✭✭Ihatenightblades wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »So because people stink at pure builds my hybrid should pull 12 thousand damage per second less than my pure build? I'm not following the chain of logic here.
Inb4 "hybrids should do less damage": absolutely, but more like 5k less, not more than double that. People (correctly) moan over warden doing 5k less than other dps specs.
I said in another post that my personal opinion is that hybrids should do 30-40% less then a pure spec.
If the pure spec is doing 30k then that would be 9k-12k less so that's about right.
Hybrids should be much less since they tend to be more surviveable. Pure specs become glass cannons in a lot of situations and need to have substantially more DPS to show for it.
No to hybrids being anywhere near a pure spec.
Im confused who ever said hybrids are even close to pure dd? Hybrid tanks/healers are cool and interesting and can be even more useful than a pure tank in vdsa for example.
A warden perma frost tank can do amazing things in vdsa that a stam dk tank just cant.
I never run with a healer in vdsa so the warden utility is amazing and i only seen this tank go down once and it was because we forgot to interrupt the blue centerion in one of later stages.
A pure blocking tank isnt really needed for dungeons and vdsa since nothing really one shots besides few bosses in dlc dungeons.
As for dps let me know when a hybrid can pull 40.6k dps solo
I am speaking about what I think the differences should be for hybrid compared to pure anything really, not just dps.
A pure DPS should always and substantially outdps any hybrid, IMHO.
A pure tank should be able to absorb and sustain himself through more damage from all sources then a hybrid, IMHO.
A pure healer should always be able to put out more healing in a more efficient way then a hybrid, IMHO.
Now I am not saying hybrids shouldn't exist, they just should be as good in those respective classes. A hybrid tank should have a harder time tanking tougher bosses, but on the flip side they should be able to pump out more DPS then a pure tank. A hybrid healer should be less healing but maybe more dps. To me that is what a hybrid is.
What I would be afraid of is that if you change how the system works, you will take that away from the pure classes. I am certainly not saying there isn't a better way, just make sure if you do it, that the pure classes stay at the top of their designed role. Someone earlier brought up how other games have lots of hybrids, and they do, but usually at the expense of the core class. EQ for example had very few warriors because Shadowknights could do the job better and pull better. Why play a warrior when it is outdone by a hybrid, and I am talking original EQ not EQ2 which I never played much. The flip side, DAoC had hybrids that were rarely used in RvR because they were penalized to much early, then later on the penalty was taken out and suddenly they became the new meta.
The next issue would be hybrids complaining that trials groups don't want them because they don't pull max DPS so will want their DPS increased. To get them accepted more maybe the DPS is increased then suddenly why play a pure version if a hybrid can do almost the same dmg and yet have another perk (1 example being survivability) that it is better at.
I am not against hybrids themselves, I am against them being remotely close to being as good as the pure version. It is very hard to balance it out so that both are equally wanted, and if it can't be balanced I personally prefer the pure version.
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Judas Helviaryn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yeah seriously.. people with this kind of attitude are just deplorable. "This build is cancer, that build is aids, this boss is gay", it's all the same low-brow crap. I'm not even going to address the fact that the OP is asking for "skill" to matter less in a fight, but this is a big issue with our last couple generations.
Cut the crap.Edited by Judas Helviaryn on February 4, 2018 11:18PM5 -
MjolnirVilkas✭✭✭✭Well you can play an effective hybrid-build if you play a PvE tank. You still need to decide and invest primary in your main attribute but usually skill set is diverse and covers magicka and stamina skills.
Can't imagine a hybrid build working as a DPS or a healer the way the game is currenty designed. Maybe that would change if the really brought in 1h+spell class/weapon skill line (runecaster or whatever is it called in the datamined files). I'd love to see such a thing, would bring back some Skyrim flavor.Sick liaisons raised this monumental mark
The sun sets forever over Blackwater Park0 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭
Except you're also leaving out the things that purists have that synergize well for them, or neglecting to realize that specializing means having weaknesses that current purists do not. Hybrids perform well in other games not because they stack advantages but because they eliminate weaknesses. Purists are the ones that stack advantages and it often comes with a gaping class flaw.I am speaking about what I think the differences should be for hybrid compared to pure anything really, not just dps.
Not so, pure DPS can output either strong sustained DPS or strong burst DPS or strong damage over time stacking or (in other games) strong physical but no elemental dmg and run into barricades of differing resistances. Pure DPS should never be able to outperform hybrids in EVERY area, only in the area they specialized in. Hybrids outperforming purists in games comes from them spreading their specialties to more than one area while purists stack their advantages in a very particular style of DPS that can be outperformed when multiple areas are stacked.IA pure DPS should always and substantially outdps any hybrid, IMHO.
Again not so, pure tanks specialize in one particular style of tanking, whether it be mitigation, dodge chance, block capacity, self-healing, or aggro generation. In games like EverQuest, there were tanks that featured varying degrees of each of these, and ESO has varying tank builds as well that sport differing amounts of support skills. Heck, it's currently meta in ESO to use a build similar to the Shadowknight where the tank focuses on DEBUFFING the enemy with gear sets like Alkosh and fracture or supporting allies with War Horn. That is in no way a purist tank who focuses exclusively on damage absorption. Paladins heal better but have weak aggro while Warriors have top notch aggro but need better healers. People use whatever class they fancy for their personal meta but that doesn't mean the purists are "weak" at their specialty. It just means people prefer someone who brings more utility at the cost of less specialization.A pure tank should be able to absorb and sustain himself through more damage from all sources then a hybrid, IMHO.
They already do, in most games the pure healer can heal extremely efficiently, having the best heal per mana ratios and often the ability to fully heal in a single spell. What he can't do is stack heal over times to prevent the constant healing necessity, or AOE heal while dealing damage to an enemy, or putting up bubble wards that PREVENT damage in the first place. Specializing in healing efficiency as a purist makes you great at healing. It doesn't make you a great HEALER. Healers use multiple tools to do their jobs effectively and the reason you'll find games where people prefer the hybrid healer is because he brings more to the table in terms of utility than a pure healer who relies on a one trick gimmick.A pure healer should always be able to put out more healing in a more efficient way then a hybrid, IMHO.
Or the hybrid tank will have an easier time tanking bosses that deal magic damage because he's not stacking physical resistance. The hybrid tank will have an easier time tanking bosses that require excessive movement because he can speed boost or heal himself when the healers are busy. The hybrid tank may even benefit the DPS better on some fights because he can supply them with shields that negate damage they're taking as opposed to stacking all the "tankiness" on himself. Same with healers and DPS... it's not that they're "better" than their purist versions at something, it's that they have the jack of all trades edge that when combined can make them perform better at a role under ideal circumstances.Now I am not saying hybrids shouldn't exist, they just should be as good in those respective classes. A hybrid tank should have a harder time tanking tougher bosses, but on the flip side they should be able to pump out more DPS then a pure tank. A hybrid healer should be less healing but maybe more dps. To me that is what a hybrid is.1 -
Valderis✭✭How is this topic still so misunderstood?
Hybrids were PvE viable in first few updates from launch.
Hybrids exist in PvP and PvE. You can find the threads where players post decent dps parses on their Hybrid (typically a stam sorc slotting liquid lightning)
DD players typically 'suffer' more from Hybrid, i.e at a dps cost. (therefore not advisable/preferred for pve endgame, but playable in overland and vet dungeons. remember, its about FUN too, eh?)
Tanks can be Hybrid and solid.
Hybrids exist in several other MMOs
Hybrids are ESO lore-friendly.
If you dont like the idea, fine. Personally, I don't like the idea of the Necromancer being the likely future class being added.
I say ADD A HYBRID class. Spellword. Melee stam dmg with Magicka Ranged. Simple. thats it.
There are sets in this game that I scratch my head over, because they seem suited for a hybrid build.
Its a polarizing topic, i get it. Im in favor of hybrids.Jone and Jode are in a dance. Who leads, you ask? There, lies the wisdom of my ancestors... - Ra'fiiq3
This discussion has been closed.