What is Good DPS?

TheDarkShadow · February 2018

Make2k15 wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Weaving light attacks on the back bar is at most 10% of your DPS, but it's also more difficult. For example I always get stuck in caltrops and miss a weave there. Without weaving at least 2-3 heavy attacks on the front is pretty hard to sustain any kind of rotation on a stamina character, and it's pretty easy to pull since you have a ~400ms window to press that skill button while you charge the heavy attack; light attack window is probably ~100-150 ms. On stamina sorcerer you even have a bonus to heavy attacks from your Bound Armaments so there's no reason to not weave them.

^^ is BS @Asardes

Now add 250 ping EACH WAY

I have the Alcast Summoner build and I am unable to hit 20k DPS

I am unable to weave or animation cancel successfully every time - sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't...

Ping is the enemy of DPS

.

Yep, third world quality, high ping and rural internet will HALVE (or more) your DPS.

It's a factor most people in this thread don't understand.

Having to press skill keys more than once to get it to fire or having to slow down LA weaving to get it to work is not helpful at all.

And people who say L2P or GitGud in response to ping-related DPS are frankly, patronising, condescending and ignorant.

The further you are from the server, the lower your DPS will be. This is a fact.

Well, this is kinda true, but a bit of testing what I've done at PTS with higher ping (200+ ping) I've come to realize that while this is kinda true it's not exactly for the reasons you'd at first think it is. You can actually do pretty much about the same DPS regardless if the ping is below 100 or more than 200+. In practise if you've learned to do 35k dps with below 100 ping then you can do that 35k dps also with 200 ping. However, this is after you have learned and trained your muscle memory for how it can be done with that lower below 100 ping. So to sum it up the lower ping is needed to learn and maintain how to do the rotation (weaving/animation cancels in specific) after you have learned that you can do the same with higher ping as well.

You probably never have to play with a real crappy connection. Yes if ping stay stable at 300 (my avarage) you can train your muscle to remember a weaving rotation, but unfortunately, people with high ping usually have high packet loss and spikes. My average ping is 300, but actually it keep jumping from 260+ to 350+. You press a skill then swap bar only to realise you just got a spike, the skill hasn't fire off, and you have to swap back and press it again, or skip that skill in that rotation. That is in a "playable day". Some day the average is 400 and the spikes are so bad (300-800)even walking around farming nodes is still a frustrating experience.

Make2k15 · February 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Make2k15 wrote: »

As for the back bar light attack weaving in my experience it will do about 5k dps max. if you weave every skill. But if you don't weave at back bar then you also need to take into account that your back bar weapon glyph doesn't proc at all which can cause about 2k lose in dps as well (e.g. status effects + direct dmg from the glyph etc.). E.g. if you have infused fiery glyph on back bar it can proc twice per rotation (3 or more skill casts on back bar) if you weave back bar properly.

That's just blatantly wrong. Weapon glyphs (exception: weapon/spelldmg-glyphs) can procc from weapon skills and light/heavy-attacks. so aslong as your wall of elements/endless hail is ticking (which should 24/7 for dds), your glyphs will procc just fine on cooldown.

Yes mb, sry about that. This is only true if backbar weapon has Weapon/spell dmg enchantment and the dps impact is probably lower than 2k in that case depending on rotation though (with infused weapon you'd have to be 5+ sec on backbar to get the second enchantment proc just before going back to front bar).

Izaki · February 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

That 50-60k number you hear from some people is complete BS.

absolute 100% top tier SUSTAINABLE dps on a dummy is around 40k (give or take a few thousand, maybe up to 45k)

The people that can hit 50k+ on the dummy are using cheat setups to fabricate dummy parses. which, yeah its awesome to see those numbers but... they don't do any vet trials with those builds. Not saying they can't HIT those numbers IN a trial. Just that they don't spec the same way when they do trials.

Plain and simple numbers, if you're at or above 25k dps... you can do pretty much everything in the game (some obvious exceptions like vMOL or vHOF)

I do trials with the exact same setup as I do my 50k+ parses on. A 50k parse doesn't necesarily mean you're using a "cheese" setup, like Kra'gh, Lover Mundus, TFS or 50 points into Piercing/Spell Erosion. A 50k 3mil dummy parse if first and foremost crit chance luck and proc luck (for monster sets or status effect procs). Its reacheable with most trial setups on Stamblades (which is the class that is best equipped for solo play). Another big factor is the length of the fight. Since a 3mil dummy lasts only about a minute on Stamblades, resource management becomes unimportant, like I don't even Heavy Attack or keep Leeching Strikes up for the whole fight (and my Regs and Drains are still both around 1.2k).

Mechanical Acuity on front bar only, War Machine on both bars, Stormfist, Warrior Mundus, Nirnhoned Main-hand, Infused off-hand, Nirnhoned Bow, 21 points into Piercing. My exact trials setup.

See I'm even using Stormfist as my monster set, which is a recovery piece and that's what I use in raids to be able to sustain a light attack rotation. Plus Stormfist does more single target and AoE DPS on every single boss, except Ra Kotu, Varlariel, the Foundation Stone Atro and the Hunters Killers (because multiple Velidreth spores can hit the target due to the size of the hitbox).

So yeah, just sayin' that you don't need to cheese 3mil dummies since the same results are achievable with your everyday trial setup and a good amount of luck.

Izaki · February 2018

gethemshauna wrote: »

In 90% cases dps depends on raid buffs, so if we talk about target dummy 6m selfbuffed parse, dancing around 40-42k is top dps (without cheese). Sure thing is not every class has possibilities to reach that number, magden or magplar probably can't, magdk due to sustain issues, not lacking damage. 35k is enough to easily complete every hard mode content in the game.

@gethemshauna WHERE ARE YOU?! COME BACK BRAH

Foxic · February 2018

JinMori wrote: »

On a boss, 60 k is doable, the max dps you can get is around that.

Stam in an optimised setting can push into the low 70s single target

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/280541067886198785/407045334783754240/Screenshot_20180128_003102.png

Foxic · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

Literally the only animation cancelling used by endgame dps is barswap cancelling that is going to save you 2 seconds out of every 10 on petsorc. That is not going to bring you from 16-40K on a dummy.

Also weaving is not animation cancelling

Liley · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Liley wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

@VaranisArano AC won't give you magically 20k+ dps. AC and weaving is not the same. weaving light attacks does add a lot of dps, AC maybe around 500-800 dps, defentely not more.
Doing 16k dps as a stam player is very low. get a better rotation and maybe different gear and you'll get better results even without weaving or AC.

@Liley
I'm pretty annoyed that you ignored my repeated statements that I wasn't looking for advice on improving my DPS. However, I'm going to move on to focus on the point I was actually trying to make because I can't figure out how to express my annoyance without also being unnecessarily snippy with you.

I wasn't asking for advice with my post, I was pointing out something about the state of the game.

My point is, I've got a rotation that works and has good uptime on everything the meta says I should. I've tried different gear sets, I've tried different rotations, and there's no magic bullet you can give me. I don't animation cancel and I can can only weave heavy attacks - neither of which is taught in game, I learned from other players - and I'm getting 16.5K DPS on a stam build with a practiced, effective rotation. I'm getting 12-13K DPS on a MagSorc, with a rotation of skills other people think should be making 20K easily. With skills alone in a good rotation, it doesn't. You need extra things - things not learned from the game itself - like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving to get those higher DPS numbers. Skills alone, even used in an effective rotation and backed up by the correct gear, don't cut it.

Now, think about that in the context of new players. An experienced player with a solid build, good rotation, and all the right skills gets 16.5K with practice on a stam build. I don't wonder why people complain that DPS is low or that most players hit 10-15K DPS. For people that depend on the in-game skills only, DPS is low.

P.S. If you respond, I'm not interested in advice for how I can improve MY dps. I'm interested in discussing how "good" DPS in this game requires things not taught in the game like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving in addition to gear/skills/rotation and what that means for new and inexperienced players. So please keep your response on-topic.

My point was not to give you advice, but simply to point out that some of your statements were simply wrong.
Also when you say you've got THE optimal rotation and hitting 16k dps, its by no means optimal.

I agree with you, ESO should let new players know about weaving and AC and explain it. I also had to learn it from my guild back in the day. But you shouldn't use this as an excuse to do low dps.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2018

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

Literally the only animation cancelling used by endgame dps is barswap cancelling that is going to save you 2 seconds out of every 10 on petsorc. That is not going to bring you from 16-40K on a dummy.

Also weaving is not animation cancelling

@TotallyNotVos
They should put that statement as one of the suggestions at the bottom of loading screens.

kylewwefan · February 2018

I see a few Heavy hitters popping in to comment. I appreciate all your insights and help with everything you guys do for the community, but come on guys. We’re just trying to get damage up a little. Not set the roof on fire.

My hopes for this thread is to help players that can help other players realize what they need to do without being told you have to run xxx. Teach someone a small simple rotation to get their damage up and that will enable them to complete more content.

Simplify a rotation to this:

Buff, Ult, Dot Dot Dot barswap Attack Spam, Attack Spam, barswap Dot Dot Dot etc.

Since that’s literally all there is to it. With some minor changes for each class/ build.

malicia · February 2018

Too many people here crying about animation canceling. I can't animation cancel to save my life, nor can I do LA weaving. I've tried and tried, friends have tried to help me, but I can't make it work.

So without animation cancelling or LA weaving I get 28-30k DPS on a dummy. Solo Stamblade. 280-300ms ping, if that matters. Not great DPS, but I'm happy with it.

I've helped a few Stamblade in our guild work at their DPS. Mostly the issue is players trying to follow the endgame meta builds without understanding the build. So they'll use Gilliam's skill layouts, but without Essence of Weapon power, meaning no source of Major Brutality. Or they'll slot Dawnbreaker without having the passive unlocked. Little things which all adds up.

Easiest way to increase your performance is to acknowledge that you need help, and to ask for it. Post your setup, post parses and listen with a critical, but open ear to the feedback.

Anotherone773 · February 2018

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I often find the people that say dummy's are worthless and I play a rotation that fits my playstyle to be the funniest. When actually sit down and do a full 3m dummy Parse the outcome is usually abysmal. Then you take a look at their gear, enchants, bar setups, Mundus stones etc and start to sort through it. I explain to them what works and why and low and behold their DPS magically doubles.

While it won't be anything considering top tier DPS it's usually more than enough to hear them elated by the new found success and they finally feel less frustrated because they understand some things about the game that are unclear or hidden. Zos does a bad job of explaining how things work and without the help of a long time player with a firm grasp on combat mechanics, You are incredibly unlikely to figure it out on your own. Now Zos is taking steps to correct that in the upcoming patch.

On the topic of target dummy's I will firmly say that each has its purpose. The 3m dummy is for practicing your rotation, that is all. The 6mil dummy is for practicing your rotation and sustain over a longer fight. The 52 mil dummy is the most accurate. The only test that really matters is what your group is capable of hitting on that 52 mil dummy. This test represents your ability to complete your rotation with a ton of visual trash and accompanying lag that will be present in a trial environment. If you do poorly in this test, you won't do any better in an actual trial.

To agree with Kyle at the beginning, 25k is good for all vet content except the dlc vet trials or possibly vaa HM. 35k in a trials gear setup is very good and will translate to 45-55k depending on class in a group test. That is considered a heavy hitter and welcome addition to just about any trials team.

I do 4200 dps sustained on a target dummy. Just tested it. Im CP57. All my gear but 2 pieces are below level 50. None of it has set bonuses and all the traits are random, some probably doesnt even have traits. It is also all blue gear. That is also on my main whos primary goals are:

* crafting
* Pick pick stabbing
* Solo play ( so self healing/survivability)

This is on a stamblade. I die a lot sometimes( think resists are around 9k) in DLC normal dungeons. I dont think ive assigned CP in the last 20-25 CP levels. I should probably L2P.

malicia · February 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I often find the people that say dummy's are worthless and I play a rotation that fits my playstyle to be the funniest. When actually sit down and do a full 3m dummy Parse the outcome is usually abysmal. Then you take a look at their gear, enchants, bar setups, Mundus stones etc and start to sort through it. I explain to them what works and why and low and behold their DPS magically doubles.

While it won't be anything considering top tier DPS it's usually more than enough to hear them elated by the new found success and they finally feel less frustrated because they understand some things about the game that are unclear or hidden. Zos does a bad job of explaining how things work and without the help of a long time player with a firm grasp on combat mechanics, You are incredibly unlikely to figure it out on your own. Now Zos is taking steps to correct that in the upcoming patch.

On the topic of target dummy's I will firmly say that each has its purpose. The 3m dummy is for practicing your rotation, that is all. The 6mil dummy is for practicing your rotation and sustain over a longer fight. The 52 mil dummy is the most accurate. The only test that really matters is what your group is capable of hitting on that 52 mil dummy. This test represents your ability to complete your rotation with a ton of visual trash and accompanying lag that will be present in a trial environment. If you do poorly in this test, you won't do any better in an actual trial.

To agree with Kyle at the beginning, 25k is good for all vet content except the dlc vet trials or possibly vaa HM. 35k in a trials gear setup is very good and will translate to 45-55k depending on class in a group test. That is considered a heavy hitter and welcome addition to just about any trials team.

I do 4200 dps sustained on a target dummy. Just tested it. Im CP57. All my gear but 2 pieces are below level 50. None of it has set bonuses and all the traits are random, some probably doesnt even have traits. It is also all blue gear. That is also on my main whos primary goals are:

* crafting
* Pick pick stabbing
* Solo play ( so self healing/survivability)

This is on a stamblade. I die a lot sometimes( think resists are around 9k) in DLC normal dungeons. I dont think ive assigned CP in the last 20-25 CP levels. I should probably L2P.

Are you enjoying the game, and are you able to do the content you want without being carried? If so, then I don't see much reason for you to "L2P" . If you want to do more DPS, sure, you'll need to make a few changes. Plenty of time for that post CP160.

Dying in Dungeons has some to do with resistances, but more with DPS (kill thrash before they kill you) and the simple matter of not being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Anotherone773 · February 2018

malicia wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I often find the people that say dummy's are worthless and I play a rotation that fits my playstyle to be the funniest. When actually sit down and do a full 3m dummy Parse the outcome is usually abysmal. Then you take a look at their gear, enchants, bar setups, Mundus stones etc and start to sort through it. I explain to them what works and why and low and behold their DPS magically doubles.

While it won't be anything considering top tier DPS it's usually more than enough to hear them elated by the new found success and they finally feel less frustrated because they understand some things about the game that are unclear or hidden. Zos does a bad job of explaining how things work and without the help of a long time player with a firm grasp on combat mechanics, You are incredibly unlikely to figure it out on your own. Now Zos is taking steps to correct that in the upcoming patch.

On the topic of target dummy's I will firmly say that each has its purpose. The 3m dummy is for practicing your rotation, that is all. The 6mil dummy is for practicing your rotation and sustain over a longer fight. The 52 mil dummy is the most accurate. The only test that really matters is what your group is capable of hitting on that 52 mil dummy. This test represents your ability to complete your rotation with a ton of visual trash and accompanying lag that will be present in a trial environment. If you do poorly in this test, you won't do any better in an actual trial.

To agree with Kyle at the beginning, 25k is good for all vet content except the dlc vet trials or possibly vaa HM. 35k in a trials gear setup is very good and will translate to 45-55k depending on class in a group test. That is considered a heavy hitter and welcome addition to just about any trials team.

I do 4200 dps sustained on a target dummy. Just tested it. Im CP57. All my gear but 2 pieces are below level 50. None of it has set bonuses and all the traits are random, some probably doesnt even have traits. It is also all blue gear. That is also on my main whos primary goals are:

* crafting
* Pick pick stabbing
* Solo play ( so self healing/survivability)

This is on a stamblade. I die a lot sometimes( think resists are around 9k) in DLC normal dungeons. I dont think ive assigned CP in the last 20-25 CP levels. I should probably L2P.

Are you enjoying the game, and are you able to do the content you want without being carried? If so, then I don't see much reason for you to "L2P" . If you want to do more DPS, sure, you'll need to make a few changes. Plenty of time for that post CP160.

Dying in Dungeons has some to do with resistances, but more with DPS (kill thrash before they kill you) and the simple matter of not being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Despite the annoying issues such as bugs, lag spikes, etc. yes im generally having fun. I would say im carried some. When i do a random dungeon it groups me with high CP players. Im usually the lowest one of the group by 100 CP at least. It also started throwing me in a bunch of "new"dungeons. Being able to do all dungeons at the same time with as many as there are and what a mess they are in, makes them hard to learn.

Think its hard to learn trial mechanics? Try learning all the dungeons in the game from scratch at the same time. I think the whole dungeon system needs some love tbh. Its kind of a mess. I also prefer to tank/heal both in dungeons and raids, but from what ive experienced in ESO, i have no desire to do either here. I might change my mind later.

I was being sarcastic about the L2P. My main is mostly for supporting my other characters with money/gear/etc. So will be primarily focused on that. Dying in dungeons is 50% my fault/lack of knowledge/25% another group members fault/25% ZOS fault(sync issues, bugs, lag spikes, etc.)

When i hit 160, ill be more concerned with improving my character. Right now i gain cp so fast i dont see a point. I gain 5-20 CP a day and can get up to 10 cp from a single dungeon run. Its kind of pointless to have so many CP levels when they are so easy to get and the difference from one level to the next is so marginal its nearly non existent.

Kingslayer513 · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

Okay so not to be too rude, but I wanted to put this myth to rest so I just went in game to test. I do agree that OP exaggerated a little bit with the PetSorc example, but my test was almost as simple. I just went on my PetSorc and alphagear'd a set up with LL, WoE, Pet, and Daedric Curse. I slotted BA + Inner light to get the highest magicka. Ultimate was destro staff ulti. I exchanged my ward for Ele Drain because I was alone, but any decent healer should be providing that in a dungeon. I also didn't feel like using any potions AT ALL, so I replaced inner light on the back bar with Power Surge. To prove a point about AC, I did NO LIGHT ATTACKS at all. Only heavy attacks on front bar. The result? 23k dps on the dot on a 3Mil target dummy self-buffed.

My rotation was simple: LL, WoE, bar-swap, Pet, Curse, heavy attack, repeat. I used ulti when I had it, and kept up Power Surge and Ele Drain when they were running low (one less heavy attack). 23k dps with zero light attacks at all and no AC (unless the bar-swap counts). My gear is really easy to get, it's just 5xJulianos, 5xNecro, 1xIceHeart, all purple armor, gold weapons, Apprentice mundus stone. Super straight forward and definitely not BiS end-game gear.

So yes, a PetSorc can hit 20k easily by doing practically nothing.

zaria · February 2018

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Make2k15 wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Weaving light attacks on the back bar is at most 10% of your DPS, but it's also more difficult. For example I always get stuck in caltrops and miss a weave there. Without weaving at least 2-3 heavy attacks on the front is pretty hard to sustain any kind of rotation on a stamina character, and it's pretty easy to pull since you have a ~400ms window to press that skill button while you charge the heavy attack; light attack window is probably ~100-150 ms. On stamina sorcerer you even have a bonus to heavy attacks from your Bound Armaments so there's no reason to not weave them.

^^ is BS @Asardes

Now add 250 ping EACH WAY

I have the Alcast Summoner build and I am unable to hit 20k DPS

I am unable to weave or animation cancel successfully every time - sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't...

Ping is the enemy of DPS

.

Yep, third world quality, high ping and rural internet will HALVE (or more) your DPS.

It's a factor most people in this thread don't understand.

Having to press skill keys more than once to get it to fire or having to slow down LA weaving to get it to work is not helpful at all.

And people who say L2P or GitGud in response to ping-related DPS are frankly, patronising, condescending and ignorant.

The further you are from the server, the lower your DPS will be. This is a fact.

Well, this is kinda true, but a bit of testing what I've done at PTS with higher ping (200+ ping) I've come to realize that while this is kinda true it's not exactly for the reasons you'd at first think it is. You can actually do pretty much about the same DPS regardless if the ping is below 100 or more than 200+. In practise if you've learned to do 35k dps with below 100 ping then you can do that 35k dps also with 200 ping. However, this is after you have learned and trained your muscle memory for how it can be done with that lower below 100 ping. So to sum it up the lower ping is needed to learn and maintain how to do the rotation (weaving/animation cancels in specific) after you have learned that you can do the same with higher ping as well.

You probably never have to play with a real crappy connection. Yes if ping stay stable at 300 (my avarage) you can train your muscle to remember a weaving rotation, but unfortunately, people with high ping usually have high packet loss and spikes. My average ping is 300, but actually it keep jumping from 260+ to 350+. You press a skill then swap bar only to realise you just got a spike, the skill hasn't fire off, and you have to swap back and press it again, or skip that skill in that rotation. That is in a "playable day". Some day the average is 400 and the spikes are so bad (300-800)even walking around farming nodes is still a frustrating experience.

This, same with crap computers, remember going on an holiday at an friends place, I was around level 25 so needed horse training and crafting research hard and installed eso on a laptop 500 dollar laptop, game ran but graphic was more morrowind than oblivion. i actually did some questing but dungeons would not work well.

Daedric_NB_187 · February 2018

This may be a stupid question. So please don't tar and feather me too much. But as far as skills relation to CP allocation. Is there a player guide that tells you how each skill relates to the different CP categories? That is something that the game doesn't explain to newer players. At least I haven't seen a guide in game.

Kingslayer513 · February 2018

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

This may be a stupid question. So please don't tar and feather me too much. But as far as skills relation to CP allocation. Is there a player guide that tells you how each skill relates to the different CP categories? That is something that the game doesn't explain to newer players. At least I haven't seen a guide in game.

That's a very reasonable questions. AFAIK there isn't a comprehensive guide that fits what you've described. I know some of the famous build creators here will sometimes describe the reasoning/effects of the CP distribution they've put into their builds, but I'm not aware of a comprehensive guide for that stuff.

For the most part, the CP tooltips are intuitive with their descriptions (i.e. 10% extra fire, frost, shock affects abilities that deal those elements). Some are less intuitive, such as the different types of healing (healing done vs. healing received, etc.) but you can generally search those CP to find discussions about them here on the forums. A tried and true way is to just do some tests yourself on a target dummy to find a setup that gives YOU the highest dps (especially since CP respecs are cheap). Also remember that CP is heavily front loaded, so if you're in the CP range 1-330ish, then it pays to spread them out into many different categories.

Bladerunner1 · February 2018

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

This may be a stupid question. So please don't tar and feather me too much. But as far as skills relation to CP allocation. Is there a player guide that tells you how each skill relates to the different CP categories? That is something that the game doesn't explain to newer players. At least I haven't seen a guide in game.

Here's the last post I know of:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344392/damage-per-second-per-cost-essential-class-skills-master-at-arms-vs-thaumaturge-pts-week-4

The devs have since reworked many of the red skills that are shown on the chart.

For me light attacks are about 20% of my Stamblade's DPS. Direct damage buffed by master at arms is about 50% of the damage.

VilniusNastavnik · February 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

- PTS (Bit less laggy) Skills were sticking, Weapon holstering itself often. Imperfect run. CP points not balanced.
- 360 ping
- No VMA weapons
- 5x Necropotence, 4x moondancer, 2x Maw
- No weaving.
- Fire backbar, Lightning front bar. Didn't have a second lightning MD for the back bar for concussion/off balance up time.
- It can be done without weaving. Just don't expect top tier results.

That's kinda fun...is the atro ulti going to be viable for single target? That's a pretty good parse for that ulti. 3630?

@jakeedmundson The current state of the PTS, Greater Storm Atro is the best single target Ulti in the game. Rage is still best for group fights and trash mobs, but the Atro wins for single target. Who knows what will happen when live his.

Update: Cleaner parse.

w. Sharpened front bar
unknown.png?width=720&height=538

Off balance was only up 25%, and minor vulnerability 78% of the time. In a group situation the damage will increase. Major prophecy also only had 75% up time for some reason even though I had a spell power pot up at all times. In a raid situation I'll have Bound aegis on instead of inner light and on both bars for the magicka boost and resistance boost. Pots give me the crit I need. Can run Tormentor for additional DPS in the first half of the fight but I run matriarch for the healing in solo play. CBF resetting every single skill each time I want to swap something.

W. Infused front bar.
unknown.png?width=720&height=539

Bladerunner1 · February 2018

zaria wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Make2k15 wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Weaving light attacks on the back bar is at most 10% of your DPS, but it's also more difficult. For example I always get stuck in caltrops and miss a weave there. Without weaving at least 2-3 heavy attacks on the front is pretty hard to sustain any kind of rotation on a stamina character, and it's pretty easy to pull since you have a ~400ms window to press that skill button while you charge the heavy attack; light attack window is probably ~100-150 ms. On stamina sorcerer you even have a bonus to heavy attacks from your Bound Armaments so there's no reason to not weave them.

^^ is BS @Asardes

Now add 250 ping EACH WAY

I have the Alcast Summoner build and I am unable to hit 20k DPS

I am unable to weave or animation cancel successfully every time - sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't...

Ping is the enemy of DPS

.

Yep, third world quality, high ping and rural internet will HALVE (or more) your DPS.

It's a factor most people in this thread don't understand.

Having to press skill keys more than once to get it to fire or having to slow down LA weaving to get it to work is not helpful at all.

And people who say L2P or GitGud in response to ping-related DPS are frankly, patronising, condescending and ignorant.

The further you are from the server, the lower your DPS will be. This is a fact.

Well, this is kinda true, but a bit of testing what I've done at PTS with higher ping (200+ ping) I've come to realize that while this is kinda true it's not exactly for the reasons you'd at first think it is. You can actually do pretty much about the same DPS regardless if the ping is below 100 or more than 200+. In practise if you've learned to do 35k dps with below 100 ping then you can do that 35k dps also with 200 ping. However, this is after you have learned and trained your muscle memory for how it can be done with that lower below 100 ping. So to sum it up the lower ping is needed to learn and maintain how to do the rotation (weaving/animation cancels in specific) after you have learned that you can do the same with higher ping as well.

You probably never have to play with a real crappy connection. Yes if ping stay stable at 300 (my avarage) you can train your muscle to remember a weaving rotation, but unfortunately, people with high ping usually have high packet loss and spikes. My average ping is 300, but actually it keep jumping from 260+ to 350+. You press a skill then swap bar only to realise you just got a spike, the skill hasn't fire off, and you have to swap back and press it again, or skip that skill in that rotation. That is in a "playable day". Some day the average is 400 and the spikes are so bad (300-800)even walking around farming nodes is still a frustrating experience.

This, same with crap computers, remember going on an holiday at an friends place, I was around level 25 so needed horse training and crafting research hard and installed eso on a laptop 500 dollar laptop, game ran but graphic was more morrowind than oblivion. i actually did some questing but dungeons would not work well.

This I can totally understand, a top of the line CPU alone could buff DPS. All this time I thought my computer was pretty cool with a GTX1080, but I have an i5 processor from 2015.

Last weekend I put together my kid's computer with a second-hand server cpu, Xeon E5 2670, that I found really cheap. I even installed a slower video card, but I cranked up ESO and was blown away. Lightning fast load times, 100 fps for everything. The annoying input lag was totally gone. And yes, more DPS, maybe because I like to see damage happening as I click the mouse!

Beodamacsa · February 2018

I'm in the same boat with my pet sorc and have tried all sorts of gear even Necropotence combined with Jullianos and monster sets such as Ilambris and Skoria currently wearing spinners x5 weapons jewelry and hat with Kena shoulders and everything else Jullianos x5 and still I'm only hitting around 12-20k, when I hit 20k or above I am pretty sure its a burst dmg not sustained dmg. My CP is 449 and I am struggling to hit number that people in the same gear say it should be hitting. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere I've used the same rotations and builds as Alcast, Dottz, Delitia's but still do not hit the numbers they say it should hit for?

Kingslayer513 · February 2018

Ozby wrote: »

I'm in the same boat with my pet sorc and have tried all sorts of gear even Necropotence combined with Jullianos and monster sets such as Ilambris and Skoria currently wearing spinners x5 weapons jewelry and hat with Kena shoulders and everything else Jullianos x5 and still I'm only hitting around 12-20k, when I hit 20k or above I am pretty sure its a burst dmg not sustained dmg. My CP is 449 and I am struggling to hit number that people in the same gear say it should be hitting. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere I've used the same rotations and builds as Alcast, Dottz, Delitia's but still do not hit the numbers they say it should hit for?

Have you tested your dps on a target dummy? You're right that you shouldn't look at burst dmg from low health enemies or from multiple targets. Testing single target on a target dummy doesn't mean everything, but it is a good indicator of where you stand with the strength of your rotation.

Just a bit above I posted (#135) a test in this thread of my PetSorc with an extremely simplified rotation to show that animation cancelling isn't everything. How does your setup compare to mine? I used 5xJuli, 5xNecro, 1xIce Heart all divines, all purple armor, gold weapons. 23k dps and it was a sloppy one-time parse with mistakes, so I'm sure that could be 25k if the rotation was tighter. Add in light attack weaving and you'll be approaching 30k dps. I'm cp640, but you should have most of the same dmg at cp450 anyways.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · February 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

That 50-60k number you hear from some people is complete BS.

absolute 100% top tier SUSTAINABLE dps on a dummy is around 40k (give or take a few thousand, maybe up to 45k)

The people that can hit 50k+ on the dummy are using cheat setups to fabricate dummy parses. which, yeah its awesome to see those numbers but... they don't do any vet trials with those builds. Not saying they can't HIT those numbers IN a trial. Just that they don't spec the same way when they do trials.

Plain and simple numbers, if you're at or above 25k dps... you can do pretty much everything in the game (some obvious exceptions like vMOL or vHOF)

Most guilds I know of have you parses with raid cp so it's standardized. Magblade can hit near 50 without cheesing on pts atm and 46k on live maybe more tbh. The 50 to 60k is generally referring to in raid which on stam can hit high 60's and recently there's a few stamblade parses hitting 70k single tgt on Valerial.

AbysmalGhul · February 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

Domihaus on vet is extremely difficult if not impossible with less than 40-50K group DPS, especially HM. I've been told don't bother if you can't pull 30K single target.

No, I've carried guild mates for skin runs on Falkreath who only pushed 10k dps. Mechanic knowledge is everything

Beodamacsa · February 2018

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

I'm in the same boat with my pet sorc and have tried all sorts of gear even Necropotence combined with Jullianos and monster sets such as Ilambris and Skoria currently wearing spinners x5 weapons jewelry and hat with Kena shoulders and everything else Jullianos x5 and still I'm only hitting around 12-20k, when I hit 20k or above I am pretty sure its a burst dmg not sustained dmg. My CP is 449 and I am struggling to hit number that people in the same gear say it should be hitting. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere I've used the same rotations and builds as Alcast, Dottz, Delitia's but still do not hit the numbers they say it should hit for?

Have you tested your dps on a target dummy? You're right that you shouldn't look at burst dmg from low health enemies or from multiple targets. Testing single target on a target dummy doesn't mean everything, but it is a good indicator of where you stand with the strength of your rotation.

Just a bit above I posted (#135) a test in this thread of my PetSorc with an extremely simplified rotation to show that animation cancelling isn't everything. How does your setup compare to mine? I used 5xJuli, 5xNecro, 1xIce Heart all divines, all purple armor, gold weapons. 23k dps and it was a sloppy one-time parse with mistakes, so I'm sure that could be 25k if the rotation was tighter. Add in light attack weaving and you'll be approaching 30k dps. I'm cp640, but you should have most of the same dmg at cp450 anyways.

Is Necropotence a better choice over spinner's? Ill have to use on of my guildies test dummies in thier home instance to try it out I think. Ill check out your build too thanks.

VilniusNastavnik · February 2018

Ozby wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

I'm in the same boat with my pet sorc and have tried all sorts of gear even Necropotence combined with Jullianos and monster sets such as Ilambris and Skoria currently wearing spinners x5 weapons jewelry and hat with Kena shoulders and everything else Jullianos x5 and still I'm only hitting around 12-20k, when I hit 20k or above I am pretty sure its a burst dmg not sustained dmg. My CP is 449 and I am struggling to hit number that people in the same gear say it should be hitting. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere I've used the same rotations and builds as Alcast, Dottz, Delitia's but still do not hit the numbers they say it should hit for?

Have you tested your dps on a target dummy? You're right that you shouldn't look at burst dmg from low health enemies or from multiple targets. Testing single target on a target dummy doesn't mean everything, but it is a good indicator of where you stand with the strength of your rotation.

Just a bit above I posted (#135) a test in this thread of my PetSorc with an extremely simplified rotation to show that animation cancelling isn't everything. How does your setup compare to mine? I used 5xJuli, 5xNecro, 1xIce Heart all divines, all purple armor, gold weapons. 23k dps and it was a sloppy one-time parse with mistakes, so I'm sure that could be 25k if the rotation was tighter. Add in light attack weaving and you'll be approaching 30k dps. I'm cp640, but you should have most of the same dmg at cp450 anyways.

Is Necropotence a better choice over spinner's? Ill have to use on of my guildies test dummies in thier home instance to try it out I think. Ill check out your build too thanks.

Pets scale off Max Magicka primarily. Higher the mag, higher the pet damage. I have 47-53K on my pet sorc. I get 30-31K on a good parse, 32K on a high crit parse

Beodamacsa · February 2018

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

I'm in the same boat with my pet sorc and have tried all sorts of gear even Necropotence combined with Jullianos and monster sets such as Ilambris and Skoria currently wearing spinners x5 weapons jewelry and hat with Kena shoulders and everything else Jullianos x5 and still I'm only hitting around 12-20k, when I hit 20k or above I am pretty sure its a burst dmg not sustained dmg. My CP is 449 and I am struggling to hit number that people in the same gear say it should be hitting. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere I've used the same rotations and builds as Alcast, Dottz, Delitia's but still do not hit the numbers they say it should hit for?

Have you tested your dps on a target dummy? You're right that you shouldn't look at burst dmg from low health enemies or from multiple targets. Testing single target on a target dummy doesn't mean everything, but it is a good indicator of where you stand with the strength of your rotation.

Just a bit above I posted (#135) a test in this thread of my PetSorc with an extremely simplified rotation to show that animation cancelling isn't everything. How does your setup compare to mine? I used 5xJuli, 5xNecro, 1xIce Heart all divines, all purple armor, gold weapons. 23k dps and it was a sloppy one-time parse with mistakes, so I'm sure that could be 25k if the rotation was tighter. Add in light attack weaving and you'll be approaching 30k dps. I'm cp640, but you should have most of the same dmg at cp450 anyways.

Is Necropotence a better choice over spinner's? Ill have to use on of my guildies test dummies in thier home instance to try it out I think. Ill check out your build too thanks.

Pets scale off Max Magicka primarily. Higher the mag, higher the pet damage. I have 47-53K on my pet sorc. I get 30-31K on a good parse, 32K on a high crit parse

Hi, thanks for that I guess ill be going back to necro then.

Loc2262 · February 2018

malicia wrote: »

Too many people here crying about animation canceling. I can't animation cancel to save my life, nor can I do LA weaving. I've tried and tried, friends have tried to help me, but I can't make it work.

Whenever you use a skill or do an LA/HA without waiting for the previous action animation to fully play out, you animation cancel. Whenever you swap your weapon bar without waiting for the animation to fully play out, you animation cancel.

I'm quite sure you've been using at least some level of animation cancelling without even noticing it.

It's not rocket science. It simply means you do your next action without letting the partly lengthy action animation of your previous action play out fully. E.g. press a skill button as fast as you can. It'll go off every about 1.1 seconds, no matter how long the skill's animation. Bingo, you animation cancelled.

Press Endless Hail or Blockade and immediately swap your bar, bingo you cancelled again.

Or press an LA and immediately press a skill. Bingo again, you animation cancelled and also "weaved".

Weaving simply means making use of the animation cancelling mechanic to insert an LA between skills, since they don't share a cooldown. You so to speak make use of the waiting time between skills and slip an LA in for raw damage, proc enchantments (i.e. increase the chance), proc skills like the Nightblade spectral bow etc.

Mureel · February 2018

So much hyperbole and straight up BS in this thread it's unbelievable. Smh

SugaComa · February 2018

How about zos make us a training dummy that you can put up that does damage or a dojo where we can test DPS in a real fight environment, obviously this is more for console as pc has add-ons that can record in any situation