Mister_DMC wrote: »

I often find the people that say dummy's are worthless and I play a rotation that fits my playstyle to be the funniest. When actually sit down and do a full 3m dummy Parse the outcome is usually abysmal. Then you take a look at their gear, enchants, bar setups, Mundus stones etc and start to sort through it. I explain to them what works and why and low and behold their DPS magically doubles.

While it won't be anything considering top tier DPS it's usually more than enough to hear them elated by the new found success and they finally feel less frustrated because they understand some things about the game that are unclear or hidden. Zos does a bad job of explaining how things work and without the help of a long time player with a firm grasp on combat mechanics, You are incredibly unlikely to figure it out on your own. Now Zos is taking steps to correct that in the upcoming patch.

On the topic of target dummy's I will firmly say that each has its purpose. The 3m dummy is for practicing your rotation, that is all. The 6mil dummy is for practicing your rotation and sustain over a longer fight. The 52 mil dummy is the most accurate. The only test that really matters is what your group is capable of hitting on that 52 mil dummy. This test represents your ability to complete your rotation with a ton of visual trash and accompanying lag that will be present in a trial environment. If you do poorly in this test, you won't do any better in an actual trial.

To agree with Kyle at the beginning, 25k is good for all vet content except the dlc vet trials or possibly vaa HM. 35k in a trials gear setup is very good and will translate to 45-55k depending on class in a group test. That is considered a heavy hitter and welcome addition to just about any trials team.

About ZOS making steps to fix that.... no, they're making it worse

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

And this is what I'm talking about, they likely have no idea about any of the suggestions you just made due to a lack of available information. Most people do not understand that obtaining buffs are available in a variety of ways and they DO NOT STACK.

I've got a Stamblade with 40k and a Magsorc with 25k, both without the cheese on a 6 mil dummy, and running both with the cheapest potions. Even though I have more Stamblade experience guess which one I'll take into hard Vet dungeons for the first time to learn mechanics. 20k is plenty if you're stayin' alive.

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

You are right on so many levels
But the thing is I do like to run something like a hybrid build. and not only one type. If I do that I can go bow on back bar as everyone else. and then the game gets boring as hell.

My idea here was to stack up crit damage as it benefits both magic and stamina.

kylewwefan wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Mobs die before you do. Plenty of DPS.

Things die before they do so everything is alright. Right? Not so much. There’s bosses that heal up if your not having enough damage to take care of things. Rilis, Dosha, some others. Every boss in Dragonstar enrages if it’s taking too long. Skoria has a bit of a limit. There’s more etc...

My answer is a trivial answer based on the concept of not pulling out a hand grenade to kill a mosquito. You only need enough DPS to kill the monsters you are currently fighting. Above that, it only happens faster.

If you have enough to kill the monsters, who cares what your DPS is? If you die, then there is a need to address something. Health? DPS? Strategy? Sustain? Deal with it. Monster dies. Enough DPS. You are fine until you come across the next monster that hands you your hat. Repeat.

In all of this, the only reason to know your DPS, or any of your numbers, is to track improvement and prevent getting lazy.

Of course, when we get into end game and group dependent content, this changes up a little. You will want to know going into the battle that your DPS is high enough. But even with the hardest situation in the game, your execution only needs to be good enough to have one (1) HP more than the damage they are doing at the time they die.

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

I know you said you're not looking for suggestions lol but i cant help it!!!! just left click (light attack ) in between pressing 1 and 2.. it so easy i thought there had to be more to it when i learned. and it is literally second nature now. i cant not light attack or I move so slow I feel I'm a slug.

@VaranisArano

Katahdin wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

You are right on so many levels
But the thing is I do like to run something like a hybrid build. and not only one type. If I do that I can go bow on back bar as everyone else. and then the game gets boring as hell.

My idea here was to stack up crit damage as it benefits both magic and stamina.

You can run whatever you want but don't expect to be effective or welcome in anything other than a normal first version (1) dungeon. Unless ZOS changes the core damage determinant of the game, you will never be effective in a hybrid build ever because all damage, including crit damage scales directly with max stamina OR magicka. The more points you have in either one = more damage. You simply can't get the damage splitting points.

In many normal 2 versions and dlc dungeons where DPS matters, you will be a liability and the reason why the group can't complete the dungeon. You definitely wont be welcome in any vet dungeon.

Yah. And that is bad and ruin some of the game. You get yo locked into the same builds over and over again in this game because it is needed to always to 90% of the same builds as everyone els.

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

You are right on so many levels
But the thing is I do like to run something like a hybrid build. and not only one type. If I do that I can go bow on back bar as everyone else. and then the game gets boring as hell.

My idea here was to stack up crit damage as it benefits both magic and stamina.

Well, this is not how this game is built. If an ability consumes stamina, it will scale on maximum stamina and weapon damage and benefit from weapon critical, and depending on type on CP allocated in Mighty, Piercing, Precise Strikes, Physical Weapons Expert, if it consumes magicka, it scales off maximum magicka, spell damage and will benefit from spell critical and CP allocated in Elemental Expert, Spell Erosion, Elf Born, Staff Expert. CP allocated in Thaumaturge and Master at Arms will benefit both, if they are damage over time or direct damage respectively; note that some skills will have both components, for example Poison Injection has an up front damage which will benefit from Master at Arms and a DoT one that will benefit from Thaumaturge; both will be buffed by Mighty and Precise Strikes, since they are poison damage and they do crit.

So spreading you attribute points and your CP around will be quite bad for DPS. For your particular build magicka and elemental abilities will do very little damage because you only have 4 attribute points spent there, meaning your base magicka is low, and also your magicka sustain will be bad, since you picked Bull Netch that restores stamina, instead of Blue Betty that restores magicka; also heavy attacks from melee weapons and bows will only restore stamina, not magicka. Last but not least you don't have Major Prophecy (+10% spell critical) so your spell critical will be low, despite Mechanical Acuity bonuses, and thus the chance to critically hit with a magicka ability and thus trigger that set in the first place. Depending in what weight you have crafted the set you will lose either Weapon Critical, if you crafted light, Spell Critical, if you crafted medium, and both if you crafted heavy. Also note that you can only cast a skill every ~0.8s, besides only being able to slot 12 of them, including ultimate abilities, so casting such low powered skills will will waste not only slots, but also time.

People who publish builds are well aware of those aspects and many of them have done extensive calculations and also dozens of hours of practical tests for each build, in different scenarios. Indeed, some things are not self-evident, but you can only parse 10K, and have spent enough time on the forums to earn 5 stars to realize that's something wrong there. Stamina Wardens can easily parse 30K+ on the 6M dummy, basically 3x of what you admittedly do. And that's not only CP, since from 470 to 690 the difference is at most 3-5%, because CP are so heavily front loaded, but skills use and rotations. For a serious build you can look at this as an example: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/ Personally I use a similar build and I was able to solo almost every world boss in base game areas, and a few in DLC areas (Wrothgar). Last night we couldn't find a 4th person for the vICP pledge so we went in and 3 manned the HM for 2 keys. So I'd say it's pretty well tested by this point.

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

You are right on so many levels
But the thing is I do like to run something like a hybrid build. and not only one type. If I do that I can go bow on back bar as everyone else. and then the game gets boring as hell.

My idea here was to stack up crit damage as it benefits both magic and stamina.

Well, this is not how this game is built. If an ability consumes stamina, it will scale on maximum stamina and weapon damage and benefit from weapon critical, and depending on type on CP allocated in Mighty, Piercing, Precise Strikes, Physical Weapons Expert, if it consumes magicka, it scales off maximum magicka, spell damage and will benefit from spell critical and CP allocated in Elemental Expert, Spell Erosion, Elf Born, Staff Expert. CP allocated in Thaumaturge and Master at Arms will benefit both, if they are damage over time or direct damage respectively; note that some skills will have both components, for example Poison Injection has an up front damage which will benefit from Master at Arms and a DoT one that will benefit from Thaumaturge; both will be buffed by Mighty and Precise Strikes, since they are poison damage and they do crit.

So spreading you attribute points and your CP around will be quite bad for DPS. For your particular build magicka and elemental abilities will do very little damage because you only have 4 attribute points spent there, meaning your base magicka is low, and also your magicka sustain will be bad, since you picked Bull Netch that restores stamina, instead of Blue Betty that restores magicka; also heavy attacks from melee weapons and bows will only restore stamina, not magicka. Last but not least you don't have Major Prophecy (+10% spell critical) so your spell critical will be low, despite Mechanical Acuity bonuses, and thus the chance to critically hit with a magicka ability and thus trigger that set in the first place. Depending in what weight you have crafted the set you will lose either Weapon Critical, if you crafted light, Spell Critical, if you crafted medium, and both if you crafted heavy. Also note that you can only cast a skill every ~0.8s, besides only being able to slot 12 of them, including ultimate abilities, so casting such low powered skills will will waste not only slots, but also time.

People who publish builds are well aware of those aspects and many of them have done extensive calculations and also dozens of hours of practical tests for each build, in different scenarios. Indeed, some things are not self-evident, but you. Stamina Wardens can easily parse 30K+ on the 6M dummy, basically 3x of what you admittedly do. And that's not only CP, since from 470 to 690 the difference is at most 3-5%, because CP are so heavily front loaded, but skills use and rotations.
For a serious build you can look at this as an example: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/

I do agree with all you say and you are right

It's just that its the same all over again as everybody else in this game. Bow on the back bar and all the same skills.
Where is the fun in that?
ZoS has also made a lot of hybrid sets that we can never use.
I really like to know way that is @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Edward ? And has ZOS any plans for hybrids or at last talked about it ?

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

You are right on so many levels
But the thing is I do like to run something like a hybrid build. and not only one type. If I do that I can go bow on back bar as everyone else. and then the game gets boring as hell.

My idea here was to stack up crit damage as it benefits both magic and stamina.

Well, this is not how this game is built. If an ability consumes stamina, it will scale on maximum stamina and weapon damage and benefit from weapon critical, and depending on type on CP allocated in Mighty, Piercing, Precise Strikes, Physical Weapons Expert, if it consumes magicka, it scales off maximum magicka, spell damage and will benefit from spell critical and CP allocated in Elemental Expert, Spell Erosion, Elf Born, Staff Expert. CP allocated in Thaumaturge and Master at Arms will benefit both, if they are damage over time or direct damage respectively; note that some skills will have both components, for example Poison Injection has an up front damage which will benefit from Master at Arms and a DoT one that will benefit from Thaumaturge; both will be buffed by Mighty and Precise Strikes, since they are poison damage and they do crit.

So spreading you attribute points and your CP around will be quite bad for DPS. For your particular build magicka and elemental abilities will do very little damage because you only have 4 attribute points spent there, meaning your base magicka is low, and also your magicka sustain will be bad, since you picked Bull Netch that restores stamina, instead of Blue Betty that restores magicka; also heavy attacks from melee weapons and bows will only restore stamina, not magicka. Last but not least you don't have Major Prophecy (+10% spell critical) so your spell critical will be low, despite Mechanical Acuity bonuses, and thus the chance to critically hit with a magicka ability and thus trigger that set in the first place. Depending in what weight you have crafted the set you will lose either Weapon Critical, if you crafted light, Spell Critical, if you crafted medium, and both if you crafted heavy. Also note that you can only cast a skill every ~0.8s, besides only being able to slot 12 of them, including ultimate abilities, so casting such low powered skills will will waste not only slots, but also time.

People who publish builds are well aware of those aspects and many of them have done extensive calculations and also dozens of hours of practical tests for each build, in different scenarios. Indeed, some things are not self-evident, but you. Stamina Wardens can easily parse 30K+ on the 6M dummy, basically 3x of what you admittedly do. And that's not only CP, since from 470 to 690 the difference is at most 3-5%, because CP are so heavily front loaded, but skills use and rotations.
For a serious build you can look at this as an example: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/

I do agree with all you say and you are right

It's just that its the same all over again as everybody else in this game. Bow on the back bar and all the same skills.
Where is the fun in that?
ZoS has also made a lot of hybrid sets that we can never use.
I really like to know way that is @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Edward ? And has ZOS any plans for hybrids or at last talked about it ?

If you want variety, try PVP. PVE content is too static, there will always be a meta way to do it unless ZOS somehow mathematically perfectly balances everything. Something will always be best and PVE content will never be dynamic enough to requitre the build diversity you want.

coop500 wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

All you DPS elite people. here. Would you kick me for running a build like this.

http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/23251/
x2 Slimecraw
x5 Medusa
x5 Mechanical Acuity

I have around 470 CP.

I do not like to make builds that 90% of all others use. But I like to be able to do some content later on and not just put the game away.

1) Winter's Revenge scales off maximum magicka so it will do negligible DPS on a stamina character; it's pretty weak even on magicka Warden, and it's one of the main reason it's so weak in PvE, since most DPS there is from ground based DoTs
2) Arctic blast scales on your health and does magicka damage, so it won't hit very hard and won't benefit from CP allocation into Mighty and Precise Strikes. If you need a burst heal you'll better use Soothing Spores, at least until you unlock vigor since those will scale off your maximum stamina and weapon damage.
3) Camouflaged Hunter on your front bar is redundant since you get the same buff, Major Savagery from Green Lotus, and buffs of the same type don't stack
4) You can run Rearming Trap instead of any of those 3 redundant and ineffective skills, thus gaining Minor Force from that instead; it also buffs your damage from skill line passive: Slayer - 3% weapon damage for each Fighters Guild skill slotted. Thus you wouldn't need Meduse, and you could run a pure stamina damage and/or sustain set instead
5) Medusa comes with maximum magicka, spell damage and maximum health bonuses, which aren't very effective on a stamina build, since most of your skills will scale off maximum stamina and weapon damage. It also comes with healthy jewelry only which will further gimp your stats. Also, the 5th piece bonus becomes redundant if you run Rearming Trap
6) Rapid Strikes/Blood Thirst is very bad as single target spammable, since it's expensive compared to the damage it does; in the past people ran that skill in that rotation simply to empower their DoTs trough Maelstrom weapons special effect. Shrouded Daggers (AoE) and Cutting Dive (single target) are much better skills to fill that slot
7) There's absolutely no reason to run Warhorn on a DD since that skill has fixed buffs that don't scale of your stats. You are better off using a DPS skill like Ballista or Wild Guardian (you have to double bar it)

Overall that build is utterly ineffective at sustaining, survival and pulling damage so it will get you kicked quite fast from any dungeon if I'm leading the group.

You are right on so many levels
But the thing is I do like to run something like a hybrid build. and not only one type. If I do that I can go bow on back bar as everyone else. and then the game gets boring as hell.

My idea here was to stack up crit damage as it benefits both magic and stamina.

Well, this is not how this game is built. If an ability consumes stamina, it will scale on maximum stamina and weapon damage and benefit from weapon critical, and depending on type on CP allocated in Mighty, Piercing, Precise Strikes, Physical Weapons Expert, if it consumes magicka, it scales off maximum magicka, spell damage and will benefit from spell critical and CP allocated in Elemental Expert, Spell Erosion, Elf Born, Staff Expert. CP allocated in Thaumaturge and Master at Arms will benefit both, if they are damage over time or direct damage respectively; note that some skills will have both components, for example Poison Injection has an up front damage which will benefit from Master at Arms and a DoT one that will benefit from Thaumaturge; both will be buffed by Mighty and Precise Strikes, since they are poison damage and they do crit.

So spreading you attribute points and your CP around will be quite bad for DPS. For your particular build magicka and elemental abilities will do very little damage because you only have 4 attribute points spent there, meaning your base magicka is low, and also your magicka sustain will be bad, since you picked Bull Netch that restores stamina, instead of Blue Betty that restores magicka; also heavy attacks from melee weapons and bows will only restore stamina, not magicka. Last but not least you don't have Major Prophecy (+10% spell critical) so your spell critical will be low, despite Mechanical Acuity bonuses, and thus the chance to critically hit with a magicka ability and thus trigger that set in the first place. Depending in what weight you have crafted the set you will lose either Weapon Critical, if you crafted light, Spell Critical, if you crafted medium, and both if you crafted heavy. Also note that you can only cast a skill every ~0.8s, besides only being able to slot 12 of them, including ultimate abilities, so casting such low powered skills will will waste not only slots, but also time.

People who publish builds are well aware of those aspects and many of them have done extensive calculations and also dozens of hours of practical tests for each build, in different scenarios. Indeed, some things are not self-evident, but you. Stamina Wardens can easily parse 30K+ on the 6M dummy, basically 3x of what you admittedly do. And that's not only CP, since from 470 to 690 the difference is at most 3-5%, because CP are so heavily front loaded, but skills use and rotations.
For a serious build you can look at this as an example: https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/

I do agree with all you say and you are right

It's just that its the same all over again as everybody else in this game. Bow on the back bar and all the same skills.
Where is the fun in that?
ZoS has also made a lot of hybrid sets that we can never use.
I really like to know way that is @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Edward ? And has ZOS any plans for hybrids or at last talked about it ?

If you want variety, try PVP. PVE content is too static, there will always be a meta way to do it unless ZOS somehow mathematically perfectly balances everything. Something will always be best and PVE content will never be dynamic enough to requitre the build diversity you want.

PVP is just as bad about that though.

Not at all. In PVE all that really matters is pure stats and numbers. There's a ton more diversity in PVP as far as how you play your build and what build you use. There will always be meta setups, but it's not as simple as PVE where Hundings + Veli + one of 3-5 support sets is basically the meta for all stam builds and skill diversity is limited mainly to which bar you put trap on.

If you really want a good answer to this question, you need to state the context in which the dps is being dealt, such as on a target skeleton or a mechanic-heavy trial boss, whether major fracture/breach is applied by someone else, your gear, your CP allocation, your class, and your buffs.

I'll just say that I consider 30k in good penetration gear (TFS + Kra'gh's for stam) and relatively high penetration CP (about 30 - 40) on a target skeleton with major fracture/breach, Warrior or Apprentice stone and no other buffs to be good for vet dungeons and meh for vet trials.

lordrichter wrote: »

Mobs die before you do. Plenty of DPS.

You, Sir, win the 'Most Insightful Comment of the Day' award!

The people that get butt bent over huge numbers are the ones that want/expect to do everything in 10 minutes or less.
This is why I rarely group.

Domihaus on vet is extremely difficult if not impossible with less than 40-50K group DPS, especially HM. I've been told don't bother if you can't pull 30K single target.

Katahdin wrote: »

Domihaus on vet is extremely difficult if not impossible with less than 40-50K group DPS, especially HM. I've been told don't bother if you can't pull 30K single target.

Its not so much the single target of burning him down... its the mechanics and mostly the aoe damage on all the ads he spawns.

Once he down to that 20 or 30% mark... he starts summoning his atros quicker. You need to have both dps AND healer with a destro ulti. Each ad group gets one ulti.. rotate dropping the a destro ult through all 3 of you and you shouldn't have an issue.