What is Good DPS?

Mureel · February 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

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Katahdin wrote: »

Domihaus on vet is extremely difficult if not impossible with less than 40-50K group DPS, especially HM. I've been told don't bother if you can't pull 30K single target.

Its not so much the single target of burning him down... its the mechanics and mostly the aoe damage on all the ads he spawns.

Once he down to that 20 or 30% mark... he starts summoning his atros quicker. You need to have both dps AND healer with a destro ulti. Each ad group gets one ulti.. rotate dropping the a destro ult through all 3 of you and you shouldn't have an issue.

We do this: kill 25% adds with cleave/aoe then drop ultis from 10-12% on all, all at once. Hasn't not worked yet.

Also this Is why so many groups wipe at > 10% - can't handle the adds.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Liley wrote: »

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VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

@VaranisArano AC won't give you magically 20k+ dps. AC and weaving is not the same. weaving light attacks does add a lot of dps, AC maybe around 500-800 dps, defentely not more.
Doing 16k dps as a stam player is very low. get a better rotation and maybe different gear and you'll get better results even without weaving or AC.

@Liley
I'm pretty annoyed that you ignored my repeated statements that I wasn't looking for advice on improving my DPS. However, I'm going to move on to focus on the point I was actually trying to make because I can't figure out how to express my annoyance without also being unnecessarily snippy with you.

I wasn't asking for advice with my post, I was pointing out something about the state of the game.

My point is, I've got a rotation that works and has good uptime on everything the meta says I should. I've tried different gear sets, I've tried different rotations, and there's no magic bullet you can give me. I don't animation cancel and I can can only weave heavy attacks - neither of which is taught in game, I learned from other players - and I'm getting 16.5K DPS on a stam build with a practiced, effective rotation. I'm getting 12-13K DPS on a MagSorc, with a rotation of skills other people think should be making 20K easily. With skills alone in a good rotation, it doesn't. You need extra things - things not learned from the game itself - like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving to get those higher DPS numbers. Skills alone, even used in an effective rotation and backed up by the correct gear, don't cut it.

Now, think about that in the context of new players. An experienced player with a solid build, good rotation, and all the right skills gets 16.5K with practice on a stam build. I don't wonder why people complain that DPS is low or that most players hit 10-15K DPS. For people that depend on the in-game skills only, DPS is low.

P.S. If you respond, I'm not interested in advice for how I can improve MY dps. I'm interested in discussing how "good" DPS in this game requires things not taught in the game like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving in addition to gear/skills/rotation and what that means for new and inexperienced players. So please keep your response on-topic.

Ihatenightblades · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

I have a clip debunking that animation canceling makes big difference. Literally gave me 500-1000 dps TOPS and that difference could just have been a good crit parse.

I hit 41.6k solo with pet sorc animation canceling then right after hit 40.8k

You can say it bumps dps by 1k tops but not being able to animation cancel is not a good reason for someone underperforming in dps.

If you arent hitting atleast 35k with BiS then you doing a bad rotation.

Remember its always important to establish a full clean rotation that keeps all dots up as much as possible while doing full rotation.

Without bis ( no vma bows/staves weapon traits nirnohoined/infused lover mundus etc you should hit 25k minimum. Any less is not respectable for end game.

Mureel · February 2018

You know I wanted to try once, on the add phase at the end, all drop dawnbreaker...? Valid or fancy dreams?

Juju_beans · February 2018

Once I hit 50 and started down the CP path I installed a combat add-on to track my dps.
I was doing 5K dps when I hit 50 with mixed up gear.

I'm now at cp 260 or so on my stamina NB. Don't have my complete sets yet but I do have 5 Spriggan's (purple). Don't have any gold items yet and even have 1 or 2 blues still.
Still playing around with rotations and don't have all my passives yet.
This is my first toon at CP level and only started playing this game last May 2016.

I can consistently do 9-10K dps at this point unbuffed and am pretty happy about that considering that I'm gimped.
Could probably do higher on a target dummy but you always get higher dps on dummies (learned that from 10 years of wow)

I think I'm getting there and I'm happy with my progress.

Fang_of_Lorkhaj · February 2018

All classes are currently have the ability to hit over 40k which is enough for any content within eso. If you're looking to find a minimal for 12man content 35k should be the bare minimal.

Nihility42 · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

Liley wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

@VaranisArano AC won't give you magically 20k+ dps. AC and weaving is not the same. weaving light attacks does add a lot of dps, AC maybe around 500-800 dps, defentely not more.
Doing 16k dps as a stam player is very low. get a better rotation and maybe different gear and you'll get better results even without weaving or AC.

@Liley
I'm pretty annoyed that you ignored my repeated statements that I wasn't looking for advice on improving my DPS. However, I'm going to move on to focus on the point I was actually trying to make because I can't figure out how to express my annoyance without also being unnecessarily snippy with you.

I wasn't asking for advice with my post, I was pointing out something about the state of the game.

My point is, I've got a rotation that works and has good uptime on everything the meta says I should. I've tried different gear sets, I've tried different rotations, and there's no magic bullet you can give me. I don't animation cancel and I can can only weave heavy attacks - neither of which is taught in game, I learned from other players - and I'm getting 16.5K DPS on a stam build with a practiced, effective rotation. I'm getting 12-13K DPS on a MagSorc, with a rotation of skills other people think should be making 20K easily. With skills alone in a good rotation, it doesn't. You need extra things - things not learned from the game itself - like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving to get those higher DPS numbers. Skills alone, even used in an effective rotation and backed up by the correct gear, don't cut it.

Now, think about that in the context of new players. An experienced player with a solid build, good rotation, and all the right skills gets 16.5K with practice on a stam build. I don't wonder why people complain that DPS is low or that most players hit 10-15K DPS. For people that depend on the in-game skills only, DPS is low.

P.S. If you respond, I'm not interested in advice for how I can improve MY dps. I'm interested in discussing how "good" DPS in this game requires things not taught in the game like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving in addition to gear/skills/rotation and what that means for new and inexperienced players. So please keep your response on-topic.

I have a hard time believing that you have a good rotation or a solid build if you're only hitting 16.5k DPS. I mean, maybe if you under CP200, but even then. Animation cancelling and weaving aren't some magic bullet either. I don't animation cancel other than heavy weaving and occasionally cancelling my ulti with a bar swap (which happens twice per parse at best, that's not adding much at all). I parse close to 30k. There's more going on than just your lack of AC.

Granted that does kind of prove your point, you as a self-described experienced player don't seem to know what you're doing too well, so how could a newb?

Katahdin · February 2018

I've managed 18-22k on my stam blade at this point. Probably need to work more on not messing up on my rotation. Finding it difficult to push above that so far.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Nihility42 wrote: »

Granted that does kind of prove your point, you as a self-described experienced player don't seem to know what you're doing too well, so how could a newb?

I'm responding to the part of your post that's actually on topic.

Using what's available in the game and actually taught by the game, my DPS stinks by the measure of most stam builds, yeah. I'm not talking about my DPS here because I think its okay or something. You think I like having random people offer me unhelpful advice and tell me I'm surely doing something wrong? I mean, the numbers speak for themselves. I know. I'm talking about my DPS to point out "good" DPS isn't that simple to achieve and its nearly impossible to figure out how to do that from the game itself. If you think my current 16.5k DPS is bad, you don't want to know what it was like before I started practicing a rotation and getting meta gear - and that's where a lot of new players start out.

That's my problem with setting "good" DPS benchmarks that don't take into account the lack of support the game itself gives for learning good DPS. Whatever you think is going on with my DPS, the game itself does not teach how to reach "good" DPS.

That's a problem for anyone wanting to help the community get better at DPS.

Sergykid · February 2018

i can only do 20-23k dps on my toons, and i don't really understand why. On mag i use julianos willpower malestrom staff aoes down pets ele drain etc, and on stam i use hunding spriggan aoes down dot spammable etc, golden weapons, good rotation, also watched some youtube tutorials.

is penetration more important than other stats? for example i should get some penetration instead of weapon damage? i use apprentice boon for spell damage, but lover would be better?

i very often see dps in dungeons that deal 10k or under that, i can pull 15k with my tank hybrid. EDIT: the game doesn't help you to improve your dps, i've seen 690 CP people that spam execute on full hp boss.

magictucktuck · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

Liley wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

@VaranisArano AC won't give you magically 20k+ dps. AC and weaving is not the same. weaving light attacks does add a lot of dps, AC maybe around 500-800 dps, defentely not more.
Doing 16k dps as a stam player is very low. get a better rotation and maybe different gear and you'll get better results even without weaving or AC.

@Liley
I'm pretty annoyed that you ignored my repeated statements that I wasn't looking for advice on improving my DPS. However, I'm going to move on to focus on the point I was actually trying to make because I can't figure out how to express my annoyance without also being unnecessarily snippy with you.

I wasn't asking for advice with my post, I was pointing out something about the state of the game.

My point is, I've got a rotation that works and has good uptime on everything the meta says I should. I've tried different gear sets, I've tried different rotations, and there's no magic bullet you can give me. I don't animation cancel and I can can only weave heavy attacks - neither of which is taught in game, I learned from other players - and I'm getting 16.5K DPS on a stam build with a practiced, effective rotation. I'm getting 12-13K DPS on a MagSorc, with a rotation of skills other people think should be making 20K easily. With skills alone in a good rotation, it doesn't. You need extra things - things not learned from the game itself - like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving to get those higher DPS numbers. Skills alone, even used in an effective rotation and backed up by the correct gear, don't cut it.

Now, think about that in the context of new players. An experienced player with a solid build, good rotation, and all the right skills gets 16.5K with practice on a stam build. I don't wonder why people complain that DPS is low or that most players hit 10-15K DPS. For people that depend on the in-game skills only, DPS is low.

P.S. If you respond, I'm not interested in advice for how I can improve MY dps. I'm interested in discussing how "good" DPS in this game requires things not taught in the game like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving in addition to gear/skills/rotation and what that means for new and inexperienced players. So please keep your response on-topic.

Well i wont try to give advice again but your just giving out bad info now. most long time players with good gear will be hitting more than that. you would have to be literally trying to not get better to hit those number after everything you said about good gear and good rotation. if your being honest

its also not realistic to NOT learn from outside sources.

VaranisArano · February 2018

magictucktuck wrote: »

show previous quotes

VaranisArano wrote: »

Liley wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

@VaranisArano AC won't give you magically 20k+ dps. AC and weaving is not the same. weaving light attacks does add a lot of dps, AC maybe around 500-800 dps, defentely not more.
Doing 16k dps as a stam player is very low. get a better rotation and maybe different gear and you'll get better results even without weaving or AC.

@Liley
I'm pretty annoyed that you ignored my repeated statements that I wasn't looking for advice on improving my DPS. However, I'm going to move on to focus on the point I was actually trying to make because I can't figure out how to express my annoyance without also being unnecessarily snippy with you.

I wasn't asking for advice with my post, I was pointing out something about the state of the game.

My point is, I've got a rotation that works and has good uptime on everything the meta says I should. I've tried different gear sets, I've tried different rotations, and there's no magic bullet you can give me. I don't animation cancel and I can can only weave heavy attacks - neither of which is taught in game, I learned from other players - and I'm getting 16.5K DPS on a stam build with a practiced, effective rotation. I'm getting 12-13K DPS on a MagSorc, with a rotation of skills other people think should be making 20K easily. With skills alone in a good rotation, it doesn't. You need extra things - things not learned from the game itself - like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving to get those higher DPS numbers. Skills alone, even used in an effective rotation and backed up by the correct gear, don't cut it.

Now, think about that in the context of new players. An experienced player with a solid build, good rotation, and all the right skills gets 16.5K with practice on a stam build. I don't wonder why people complain that DPS is low or that most players hit 10-15K DPS. For people that depend on the in-game skills only, DPS is low.

P.S. If you respond, I'm not interested in advice for how I can improve MY dps. I'm interested in discussing how "good" DPS in this game requires things not taught in the game like animation canceling and heavy/light attack weaving in addition to gear/skills/rotation and what that means for new and inexperienced players. So please keep your response on-topic.

Well i wont try to give advice again but your just giving out bad info now. most long time players with good gear will be hitting more than that. you would have to be literally trying to not get better to hit those number after everything you said about good gear and good rotation. if your being honest

its also not realistic to NOT learn from outside sources.

As honest as I can be. But if you think I'm wrong, that's fine.

Nihility42 · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

Nihility42 wrote: »

Granted that does kind of prove your point, you as a self-described experienced player don't seem to know what you're doing too well, so how could a newb?

I'm responding to the part of your post that's actually on topic.

Using what's available in the game and actually taught by the game, my DPS stinks by the measure of most stam builds, yeah. I'm not talking about my DPS here because I think its okay or something. You think I like having random people offer me unhelpful advice and tell me I'm surely doing something wrong? I mean, the numbers speak for themselves. I know. I'm talking about my DPS to point out "good" DPS isn't that simple to achieve and its nearly impossible to figure out how to do that from the game itself. If you think my current 16.5k DPS is bad, you don't want to know what it was like before I started practicing a rotation and getting meta gear - and that's where a lot of new players start out.

That's my problem with setting "good" DPS benchmarks that don't take into account the lack of support the game itself gives for learning good DPS. Whatever you think is going on with my DPS, the game itself does not teach how to reach "good" DPS.

That's a problem for anyone wanting to help the community get better at DPS.

The problem is that good DPS is based on what it takes to clear content. It's not about how easy it is to achieve with or without various resources. Whether the game tells you how to get there or not, 25k is still a "good" DPS for vet content. It doesn't help to arbitrarily say that 10k or 15k is a "good" DPS if it actually isn't when tested in real content. In fact that seems counter productive, because then new players see that their DPS is apparently good but still have trouble with content, and rather than seeking resources to improve (which may not be provided in game, but are plentiful in the form of guilds, guides, and videos), they get frustrated and don't know what the problem is. It seems better to be honest and provide resources as a community for players that want to get better.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2018

I hit 38k to 39k and people are always like “wow such DPS. Much awesome!” So I’m guessing that’s good but not expected. I would imagine 25k for dungeons and 30k+ for organized trials groups. Honestly, if things are going smooth and the group is synergizing well with each other who really cares in the end?

kringled_1 · February 2018

Without combat metrics or something similar, or a skeleton, you don't have any quantitative feedback on how much damage you're doing. Given the enormous disparity between bosses in overland content and in group content, I'm not surprised by people being low.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Nihility42 wrote: »

show previous quotes

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

Granted that does kind of prove your point, you as a self-described experienced player don't seem to know what you're doing too well, so how could a newb?

I'm responding to the part of your post that's actually on topic.

Using what's available in the game and actually taught by the game, my DPS stinks by the measure of most stam builds, yeah. I'm not talking about my DPS here because I think its okay or something. You think I like having random people offer me unhelpful advice and tell me I'm surely doing something wrong? I mean, the numbers speak for themselves. I know. I'm talking about my DPS to point out "good" DPS isn't that simple to achieve and its nearly impossible to figure out how to do that from the game itself. If you think my current 16.5k DPS is bad, you don't want to know what it was like before I started practicing a rotation and getting meta gear - and that's where a lot of new players start out.

That's my problem with setting "good" DPS benchmarks that don't take into account the lack of support the game itself gives for learning good DPS. Whatever you think is going on with my DPS, the game itself does not teach how to reach "good" DPS.

That's a problem for anyone wanting to help the community get better at DPS.

The problem is that good DPS is based on what it takes to clear content. It's not about how easy it is to achieve with or without various resources. Whether the game tells you how to get there or not, 25k is still a "good" DPS for vet content. It doesn't help to arbitrarily say that 10k or 15k is a "good" DPS if it actually isn't when tested in real content. In fact that seems counter productive, because then new players see that their DPS is apparently good but still have trouble with content, and rather than seeking resources to improve (which may not be provided in game, but are plentiful in the form of guilds, guides, and videos), they get frustrated and don't know what the problem is. It seems better to be honest and provide resources as a community for players that want to get better.

Sure! I'll agree with that.

What is "good" DPS definitely varies based on content. My level of DPS is good for a normal dungeon, certainly by the standards of most PUGs in normal dungeons. But for Vet, its a low level of DPS, its not really going to work out well in Vet DLC dungeons, and I need not apply to any trials. So "good" DPS in that sense varies.

I like the idea of the OP, where 20k DPS is a level where you can easily clear any content in the game. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just frustrated that the game itself does a poor job of getting players to that 20K DPS mark without using outside sources or resources like these forums. I'm sure that if I plonked out a post saying "get me to 20K DPS," the forums, including some advice giving posters here, would be happy to help. The lack of training on things like rotations, weaving, animation cancelling or even basic advice like "you should have all attributes in stam or mag" in the game make it hard to get to that point without going to outside sources.

VilniusNastavnik · February 2018

Australian here. On the PTS I'll hit 30K on my pet sorc without light attach weaving using a heavy attack build.

5 Necro, 4 IA, 2 Maw.
Attro (Stronger in Single target fights than rage on PTS) > LL > EB > Swap > Familiar > Tormentor (when above 50%) > Prey > HA > HA > Swap > Repeat. If Lag settles Weaving can be slotted in between but this build gives 30K on a nord, 32K on an altmer as is and has no sustain issues at all. Magicka reserves should be full by the time execute phase comes round. The only level of animation cancelling this build does is one animation rapidly into another for skills not LAs.

This is with 380 ping that causes weaving to be a pain in the ass. On the live server, the game is exponentially more laggy even with the same ping rate.

People saying you need to get 40-50K DPS are playing with 30-40 ping max and complain when their ping hits 120.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Hey, I know I've been arguing and debating a fair bit here, but I'll be heading out of town and away from interest access for a couple days. I'm sorry to cut and run, but if I don't respond to anyone who wants a response, that's why.

Imza · February 2018

Weaving light attacks on the back bar is at most 10% of your DPS, but it's also more difficult. For example I always get stuck in caltrops and miss a weave there. Without weaving at least 2-3 heavy attacks on the front is pretty hard to sustain any kind of rotation on a stamina character, and it's pretty easy to pull since you have a ~400ms window to press that skill button while you charge the heavy attack; light attack window is probably ~100-150 ms. On stamina sorcerer you even have a bonus to heavy attacks from your Bound Armaments so there's no reason to not weave them.

^^ is BS @Asardes

Now add 250 ping EACH WAY

I have the Alcast Summoner build and I am unable to hit 20k DPS

I am unable to weave or animation cancel successfully every time - sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't...

Ping is the enemy of DPS

.

SirAndy · February 2018

kylewwefan wrote: »

show previous quotes

SirAndy wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

What is Good DPS?

Simple, good DPS is when the mobs die and you don't.
No need to put some arbitrary numbers on there ...

I’m tired of fungal Grotto taking an hour to beat due to this line of thinking.

@kylewwefan

I can solo vet Fungal Grotto in much less than an hour with that line of thinking, maybe you need to practice a bit harder?

greylox · February 2018

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation

I have an Argonian pet sorc wearing 4 mad tinkerer, 5 necro and Maw of the Infernal x2. I use WoE, Lightning Flood, Familiar and Matriarch, Daedric prey, Empowered ward, Bound armour...... have divine and infused, some gold some purple gear. Full cp. Without any animation cancelling and making sure all damage skills are always active on the dummy and only using heavy attacks in between i get 18k ish dps without any extra help, with major sorcery etc it can easily go above that. Just saying as an example, I'm by no means a great player.

Glurin · February 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I agree that most people should, with a relatively casual gearing and rotation, be able to hit 20k.

10k is honestly sufficient for almost all nonDLC dungeons, though, if you actually play mechanics.

Yeah, that's the thing. The mindset in MMOs has been for some time now that "good" DPS is equal to "we can burn the boss so fast that there are no mechanics". Anything less is considered scrub territory. In some cases it even goes so far as if the healer had to actually, you know, heal anybody because the boss got one attack off, then DPS was too low. Part of it is people wanting to feel powerful and part of it is wildly overcompensating for lack of skill or potential missteps.

I'm speaking generally of course, but that's the place where a lot of these numbers come from.

Juju_beans · February 2018

Glurin wrote: »

show previous quotes

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I agree that most people should, with a relatively casual gearing and rotation, be able to hit 20k.

10k is honestly sufficient for almost all nonDLC dungeons, though, if you actually play mechanics.

Yeah, that's the thing. The mindset in MMOs has been for some time now that "good" DPS is equal to "we can burn the boss so fast that there are no mechanics". Anything less is considered scrub territory. In some cases it even goes so far as if the healer had to actually, you know, heal anybody because the boss got one attack off, then DPS was too low. Part of it is people wanting to feel powerful and part of it is wildly overcompensating for lack of skill or potential missteps.

I'm speaking generally of course, but that's the place where a lot of these numbers come from.

Worse...dps can burn down mobs/boss so quick that you don't need healers or tanks. That is the new mindset.

adeptusminor · February 2018

I've always liked the idea of saying 25-30k dps is a solid minimum target to hit as a DPS. When I was at CP cap, more or less BiS gear and only hitting 18-20k and I heard about all these people getting much higher numbers, it piqued my curiosity about what they were doing that I wasn't. That in turn lead me to read up, watch videos and research the game more in depth and improved my dps numbers dramatically. When people say 15k dps is fine, it is for most content, but I think it also does a disservice to some people and leads them to think they are doing the best they can do and the people hitting higher numbers are only getting those numbers by animation cancelling and cheesing parses when it's actually better rotations, CP allotment, and better more synergized gear.

In other words, if you are a dps and hitting 15k or whatever and are happy with that, cool. Just be aware that it is possible to increase those numbers significantly with a bit of learning and practice, and it makes going through harder content that much easier for you and your group.

edit: I also realize that a lot of people play this game casually and don't care about their numbers in the slightest. No amount of in game information or out of game information is going to change their playstyle. That's perfectly fine. The people who do want to improve and get better are likely to look towards outside sources anyway.

Colecovision · February 2018

SirAndy wrote: »

show previous quotes

kylewwefan wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

What is Good DPS?

Simple, good DPS is when the mobs die and you don't.
No need to put some arbitrary numbers on there ...

I’m tired of fungal Grotto taking an hour to beat due to this line of thinking.

@kylewwefan

I can solo vet Fungal Grotto in much less than an hour with that line of thinking, maybe you need to practice a bit harder?

I manage 14k dps in my solo gear (fb med + briar) and FG1 is a 15 - 20 min solo for me. Selectively blocking and dodging have saved way more time than adding a little dps. Turning to heavy attacks only until I get some resources back kills more overall dps than anything related to skeleton numbers. The rotation needs to get right back on track after dealing with mechanics. I'm sure an hour wasn't intended to be taken literally, but I doubt 8k per dps with an actual tank and healer would have any trouble with FG1. If a fake tank and healer also went in with 8k each, the run might go crazy fast. 20k people are playing the wrong content if they are in fg1 normal. That's on them, not low dps folks and not ZoS.

To the initial question, good dps is 2 standard deviations higher than average. Average can include crazy 50k people and terrible light bow spammers, but if you throw out one you have to throw out both. If anyone has any numbers from ZoS on overall DPS in the game or a fanbased spreadsheet of average times related to boss hit points, with a significant number of samples from all player bases, then there might be an answer. As it is, we have nothing that I can see and the only thing of merit to me are people saying what they can do in terms of dps and the hardest content they have completed. The sample on the forum is heavily skewed for multiple reasons including people simply saying they can do more than they can.

Many of the high end guys throw out big numbers for dlc dungeons and I don't doubt that for a second. Personally I haven't cleared a normal dlc solo yet, nor have I come close. They are another world from what I can tell.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

That 50-60k number you hear from some people is complete BS.

absolute 100% top tier SUSTAINABLE dps on a dummy is around 40k (give or take a few thousand, maybe up to 45k)

The people that can hit 50k+ on the dummy are using cheat setups to fabricate dummy parses. which, yeah its awesome to see those numbers but... they don't do any vet trials with those builds. Not saying they can't HIT those numbers IN a trial. Just that they don't spec the same way when they do trials.

Plain and simple numbers, if you're at or above 25k dps... you can do pretty much everything in the game (some obvious exceptions like vMOL or vHOF)

Most any class that can easily add major breach or has built in major fracture (magic NB, magic Sorc, stam NB and stam DK are ones I can personally vouch for) can all pull low 40s on a dummy using a standard trial rotation. The only exception is that most stam players will stack more pen then they normally would. That said, that pen is there in a raid anyways, so its hard for me to call that cheese. 50-60k single target DPS is perfectly sustainable in a full raid on several classes and specs.

You really only see 50k+ self buffed dummy parses from Nightblade on 3 million dummies (both magic and stam can pull it off). This can be done using the exact same trial setups and gear that people normally run. The only cheese is that you probably get a little spammy with your execute, you probably dont reapply siphoning attacks, and you probably only post the parses with better than average crit. Both can hit low to mid 40s on a 6 million (no cheese whatsoever), but there arent many that can pull it off. Those parses easily translate in the 50's ST in a good raid.

So yes, there are tips and tricks to get a parse into the 40's and 50's on a dummy, but that does not completely invalidate the parse, especially considering, those same people are almost certainly pulling more than that in a proper raid. Any trial build should pull mid 30's on dummy with no cheese whatsover if they have a good rotation and BIS gear. Anyone that can "cheese" a parse into the 50's can certainly hit 50 in a good raid, where there is no such thing as cheese.

eserras7b16_ESO · February 2018

jakeedmundson wrote: »

That 50-60k number you hear from some people is complete BS.

absolute 100% top tier SUSTAINABLE dps on a dummy is around 40k (give or take a few thousand, maybe up to 45k)

The people that can hit 50k+ on the dummy are using cheat setups to fabricate dummy parses. which, yeah its awesome to see those numbers but... they don't do any vet trials with those builds. Not saying they can't HIT those numbers IN a trial. Just that they don't spec the same way when they do trials.

Plain and simple numbers, if you're at or above 25k dps... you can do pretty much everything in the game (some obvious exceptions like vMOL or vHOF)

Sorry, but there's some 4man groups pulling 170k DPS, this means that each DPSER is over 80k. Most bosses have adds and if you have correct positioning, your tank is debuffing, your healer is good and supporting your damage you can get crazy numbers.
The thing i mean is, you say they can't HIT those numbers IN a trial, when depending on the boss they can get much higher. (on others with heavy mechanics less)
I would say it's not only about 25k DPS. It's about your ability of not dying, and mantaining this DPS through mechanics, and/or taking advantage of the mechanics to reach higher DPSers.

Splattercat_83 · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

We also have to consider the difference that animation canceling makes. I'm not very good at animation canceling, having really only learned to do one type of it. So my DPS is obviously lower even when I'm using an "ideal" rotation.

Honestly, 10-15K DPS is good DPS, if you don't animation cancel. Consider that when you talk about new players having low DPS.

I'll be completely honest here. My best self-buffed DPS parse on a 3 mil Dummy is 16.5K DPS on my Stamina Sorc. I've got a good rotation and I've got good uptime on everything I should have going...but I can't animation cancel outside of weaving heavy attacks.

I'm not looking for suggestions or how to improve. That answer's pretty obvious - learn to animation cancel. Except that animation canceling isn't explained anywhere in the game, so while I could go to outside sources and learn and figure it out, that's not something that you can expect out of new players.

You said, "A PetSorc using WoE, LL, pet and heavy attack will hit 20K. Easily."

Uh. Nope. Not without animation cancelling and/or a Maelstrom Staff. I'm running a MagSorc through VMA for the first time to get my staff. Again, I can't animation cancel, and no, I don't get 20K easily with the rotation you describe. More like 12-13K with an optimal rotation.

Again, I'm not looking for suggestions or criticism. The solution is obvious - L2animationcancel. I'm just pointing out, again, the big difference that animation canceling makes to DPS. Unfortunately, animation canceling is necessary for getting those high numbers that have become necessary for certain levels of content. I don't even dislike animation canceling as a concept or how its used in the game, I just dislike pretending that gear+rotation will let you hit high DPS numbers without animation canceling. That has not been my experience at all.

I'll agree with the OP that 20K DPS is a fair number for good DPS. However, its worth pointing out that reaching 20K requires at least some level of animation canceling for most players. Perhaps trials gear lets you reach that without animation canceling. I wouldn't know, because I can't get to trials-level DPS without animation canceling to do the trials myself.

What are you referring to when you talk about animation canceling? There is not much animation canceling anymore in PVE, the only animation canceling I can think of that is still used is the barswarp animation cancel where you swap you weapon on the use of the last skill of that bar in your rotation. To get max dps you light attack weave between every skill that you cast. Skills are on a 1 second global cool down, so even if you try to animation cancel you aren't going to get the next skill to fire in that 1 second. Light attacks are on a 1 second cool down as well but they aren't on the same global cool down as skills. Thats why you can fire light attacks between your skils.

Do not block cancel the animation unless you are canceling out a channel skill and need to block, or shield up. This will kill your stamina regeneration because every time you block you don't regenerate stamina for 2 seconds, even if you just tap it to cancel out an animation. This adds up and when it comes time to block or dodge roll for a mechanic, you are going to be out of stamina.

You said that you aren't looking for suggestions or criticism, but yet that is EXACTLY what you need. You are blaming less than desirable DPS results on animation canceling and I am here to tell you, LZH, Alcast, and other top end players do not animation cancel and haven't since about the Thieves Guild/ Dark Brotherhood patch and changes it brought along with it to animations. Also, yes a pet sorc with a pet, WoE, and heavy attacks will do 20k dps without animation canceling. I can get 25k doing just that.

10-15K DPS is...well..... low, very low. My tank can pull 4k just from tanking a boss. If the DD's are only pulling 5 -6K DPS above my tank, then something is wrong, very wrong. I pull 36k+ on my MagBlade in a solo parse with my trial set up. If I really wanted to cheese it, I could switch out mudus stones, change some of my cp around, use a different gear set, and use soul harvest as my ulti and get well over 40k but that's not practical in a trial.

I am going to give you a suggestion and criticism here, take it if you want it's up to you. Look at your gear. There are a few good setups you can put together to get good DPS. Check out Alcasthq.com he has alot of builds on there that are good and has builds that don't include trials gear, its gear that anyone can craft or farm from zones. Also look at your CP distribution that is listed on his site as well along with a proper rotation.

Good luck on getting those numbers up!

morrowjen · February 2018

I've used ultimates a lot in dungeons as a healer - love using Rite of Passage/Practiced Incantation at certain points. It allows everyone to go all out for a short bit and me a second to make sure I know everyone's position but I can't remember the last time I used an ultimate outside of when playing a healer. It's a good point to bring up and one I'm going to try and be more mindful of for my DPS characters.

MrGarlic · February 2018

Imza wrote: »

show previous quotes

Weaving light attacks on the back bar is at most 10% of your DPS, but it's also more difficult. For example I always get stuck in caltrops and miss a weave there. Without weaving at least 2-3 heavy attacks on the front is pretty hard to sustain any kind of rotation on a stamina character, and it's pretty easy to pull since you have a ~400ms window to press that skill button while you charge the heavy attack; light attack window is probably ~100-150 ms. On stamina sorcerer you even have a bonus to heavy attacks from your Bound Armaments so there's no reason to not weave them.

^^ is BS @Asardes

Now add 250 ping EACH WAY

I have the Alcast Summoner build and I am unable to hit 20k DPS

I am unable to weave or animation cancel successfully every time - sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't...

Ping is the enemy of DPS

.

Yep, third world quality, high ping and rural internet will HALVE (or more) your DPS.

It's a factor most people in this thread don't understand.

Having to press skill keys more than once to get it to fire or having to slow down LA weaving to get it to work is not helpful at all.

And people who say L2P or GitGud in response to ping-related DPS are frankly, patronising, condescending and ignorant.

The further you are from the server, the lower your DPS will be. This is a fact.