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Is change needed in how game balance is done?

Grimm13
Grimm13
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I have come to believe there does need to be a change based on if it's a PVP or PVE environment. The two have vastly different play styles and goals.

In PvE the only time a nerf is really needed to the skills is when they have introduced a new line and find that it's not exactly as they had envisioned or a flaw comes to lights that was unforeseen. If a piece of equipment is added that changes the balance then you nerf the equipment. A NPC or Boss doesn't scream how unfair one character or another is in a dungeon because of balance, one class or another may shine or be wrecked as the situation applies.
Zos can adjust a NPC or Boss power as they like to patch a unforeseen use and nod not have to nerf the PvE skill lines as a whole. The change could be system wide or to a particular set of NPC's in a quest or dungeon. Most changes in PVE would be to the NPC's which affords a lot of flexibility to ZOS, they are already doing this for the most part.

The environment for PvP is restricted as it is not in open world and so the PvP and PvE skill applications do not meet. Easy enough to have the system use the PvP balance adaptations in all PvP environments, such as Cyrodill, mini games, duels. Players still will know what a power lash would do as it is still basically the same just adjusted for balance. Players are already adjusting as PvP play style is different since you have other players that can do whatever within their choices and are not NPC's set in a routine.

Overwhelmingly the comments I have seen about changes are how it effects PVP and harms the PVE side. Splitting the two like this makes the most sense to me. The intended choice of roles in PVE can be maintained, while granting a head to head balance in this way. It solves the divisive PVP versa PVE mentality that is so pervasive in the forums. With having two environments it is possible to figure what causes the most lag and make adjustments to the PVP side to mitigate them while in that environment. Having Flashy effects in a 4 man group is one thing but on a large scale PVP battle becomes problematic.

Would you like to see this change to split between PvP/PvE or keep changes the same to both sides? Please comment with support, opposition or other ideas.
Edited by Grimm13 on January 31, 2018 7:02PM
PC-NA
  • MehrunesFlagon
    MehrunesFlagon
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    split them.
  • Sabbathius
    Sabbathius
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    I honestly feel splitting PvE and PvP is a pipe dream. ZOS just isn't up to it. That's the sad reality of the situation. I don't know if it's because the code is an absolute mess, or if the developers are not very good at what they do, or there's just too few of them and overworked and can't get the job done. But they can barely keep the game chugging along as it is, with a single PvPvE setup, and it's still buggy as heck, with a ton of broken abilities that get fixed every patch, and yet every patch breaks something else. To try to balance PvE and PvP separately would be literally twice the work, and four times the amount of bugs. They can't walk, so you can't expect them to suddenly start to run. I'm not saying it to be disparaging or anything, it's just a reality check.

    Also, how do you separate PvE and PvP in a game with PvPvE zones? Like Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Those things would need to be completely ripped up and rebuilt from the ground up, removing all PvE aspects, and leaving only PvP. Can you honestly picture ZOS doing something that monumental? They're too busy selling Nocturne's chest-revealing robes for 2000 crowns to even contemplate something of that magnitude.

    Bottom line - it's wishful thinking.
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 23, 2018 1:49AM
  • Rohamad_Ali
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    Its a misconception to think classes don't ever need adjustment for PvE . An sometimes nerfing gear to rectify the situation actually backfires when the gear was developed to help some under performing classes . The forums give tunnel vision as to the real reasons balance changes take place . People cry for nerfs all day long and in proportion to the crys the nerfs are never tossed out as much as some would like . That being a piece of equation along with the devs knowledge a majority of PvE players would be totally fine over performing and reaping the benefits of very easy content , they are also aware of how that complacency leads to boredom and burnout , lowering player retention and play time . All in all its a bigger issue then PvP vs PvE players but unless you've been actively participating in both , its easy to just point the blame game one way . Nick balanced both together and Wrobel is correct for maintaining Nick's course .
    Edited by Rohamad_Ali on February 2, 2018 3:26AM
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    PVP and PVE are different games with different needs.

    PVE needs things to remain viable so that people can choose between different styles of play for any given roll.

    PVP needs a shifting meta with plenty of strategy and counter strategy.

    They're needs are mutually exclusive, as should be they're balance. They need split. And every patch ZOS does not do so damages the game that much more.
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    To me, the measure of a man is whether or not he fights for his principles. It does not matter if you never had a chance to begin with. The deck could be stacked, the game rigged against you. You fight to the bitter end, because it is worth fighting for.

    NA-PC Tank player only.
  • Grimm13
    Grimm13
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    Sabbathius wrote: »
    I honestly feel splitting PvE and PvP is a pipe dream. ZOS just isn't up to it. That's the sad reality of the situation. I don't know if it's because the code is an absolute mess, or if the developers are not very good at what they do, or there's just too few of them and overworked and can't get the job done. But they can barely keep the game chugging along as it is, with a single PvPvE setup, and it's still buggy as heck, with a ton of broken abilities that get fixed every patch, and yet every patch breaks something else. To try to balance PvE and PvP separately would be literally twice the work, and four times the amount of bugs. They can't walk, so you can't expect them to suddenly start to run. I'm not saying it to be disparaging or anything, it's just a reality check.

    Also, how do you separate PvE and PvP in a game with PvPvE zones? Like Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Those things would need to be completely ripped up and rebuilt from the ground up, removing all PvE aspects, and leaving only PvP. Can you honestly picture ZOS doing something that monumental? They're too busy selling Nocturne's chest-revealing robes for 2000 crowns to even contemplate something of that magnitude.

    Bottom line - it's wishful thinking.

    I know it's a pipe dream but I do think it's a better solution.

    There would have to be player concessions as well. Such as knowing that when you go to Cyrodill and the Imperial City that those areas are PvP so it used that adaptations throughout the encounters in the land. I had thought at first well you load into a delve so it could change between them, then I realized no cause you can have PVP during it so it has to stay the PvP environment even though there is some PvE content. No need to rip up and rebuild those areas, nothing is 100% ideal but it would be closer.
    PC-NA
  • Anhedonie
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    Just look the PTS threads. A lot of them sound like "don't nerf X, don't nerf Y".
    Speaks volumes.
    Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.
  • Longstride
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    In the beginning, ESO was designed to be more or less self balancing. I.e. for every build there was an equal and opposite counter build. However, they swiftly moved away from that as the average casual who stepped foot into Cyrodiil was wither unwilling or unable to analyze why tey died and how to adjust their skillset.

    Proc sets changed a lot of this. There were no hard counters for many of them.

    I agree with the other statements. It''s never going to happen.
  • Zer0oo
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    They most of the time do not have an idea how things work in the game. Meaning the playerbase plays the game on a whole other level than most of the devs. I would not necessary hold it against them since player normally have more time to play but combined with very slow balancing and most of the time very bad choices it makes the game not really enjoyable.

    The 3-6 month between balancing make things only worse since if they make some bad changes they are there for so a long time or they broken things will not be addressed for a very long time. Just look at the proc set meta that made pvp unplayable for such a long time just to make it's comeback for the no-cp battlegrounds after morrowind. Balancing is not easy and balancing pvp and pve at once makes it not really easier but trying to make every 6 month by blind guessing to balance is just stupid.

    I really would like monthly small balancing which are always up on the pts to test before it hits live and it would open the opportunity to experiment with some ideas of players and devs even if the most likely do not hit live. Maybe just to show how bad they are.
    EU player that is salty about BAD performance and not working BGs
  • Saint_Bud
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    For a long time it wasnt a problem that pvp and pve are not split. Moast skills were not used in a pve build and nerfs were made to make 1vX harder.
    PVP Saint-Bud magicka Templar: AR 46
    PVE Lord Victarion mDK : dro'm-Athra-Destroyer pre Morrowind retired for crafting
    PVE Ramsay-Bolton magicka NB: Voice of Reason Clockwork City Patch retired
    VAA hm/ VHRC hm/ VSO hm/ VMOL hm/ VHOF hm/ VAS hm clear

    Stop playing PVE because its boring, content not disigned for melee players and class balance and sustain is ***
  • Solariken
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    Splitting PvE and PvP would not be that difficult - all they need to do is make all PvP non-CP and tweak classes and item sets to that environment. Then they can put all the power creep and gimmicks into the CP system they want to cater to PvE progression.
    Edited by Solariken on February 2, 2018 1:20PM
  • Apache_Kid
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    Of course they should be balanced separately but they refuse to do that, so what's the point?
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    I have come to believe there does need to be a change based on if it's a PVP or PVE environment. The two have vastly different play styles and goals.

    In PvE the only time a nerf is really needed to the skills is when they have introduced a new line and find that it's not exactly as they had envisioned or a flaw comes to lights that was unforeseen. If a piece of equipment is added that changes the balance then you nerf the equipment. A NPC or Boss doesn't scream how unfair one character or another is in a dungeon because of balance, one class or another may shine or be wrecked as the situation applies.
    Zos can adjust a NPC or Boss power as they like to patch a unforeseen use and nod not have to nerf the PvE skill lines as a whole. The change could be system wide or to a particular set of NPC's in a quest or dungeon. Most changes in PVE would be to the NPC's which affords a lot of flexibility to ZOS, they are already doing this for the most part.

    The environment for PvP is restricted as it is not in open world and so the PvP and PvE skill applications do not meet. Easy enough to have the system use the PvP balance adaptations in all PvP environments, such as Cyrodill, mini games, duels. Players still will know what a power lash would do as it is still basically the same just adjusted for balance. Players are already adjusting as PvP play style is different since you have other players that can do whatever within their choices and are not NPC's set in a routine.

    Overwhelmingly the comments I have seen about changes are how it effects PVP and harms the PVE side. Splitting the two like this makes the most sense to me. The intended choice of roles in PVE can be maintained, while granting a head to head balance in this way. It solves the divisive PVP versa PVE mentality that is so pervasive in the forums. With having two environments it is possible to figure what causes the most lag and make adjustments to the PVP side to mitigate them while in that environment. Having Flashy effects in a 4 man group is one thing but on a large scale PVP battle becomes problematic.

    Would you like to see this change to split between PvP/PvE or keep changes the same to both sides? Please comment with support, opposition or other ideas.

    most developers with experience in complex systems will tell you that splitting code streams into two separate paths quadruples at least the effort and bugs and problems and complexity of the workload. the further and furhter they diverge the more the increase.

    The likely result of such a split is more bugs, slower releases and gradually growing cost-to-benefit analysis that ends with one or the other being tossed aside as it no longer even comes close to maintain two separate development paths.

    So, unless you think your fave play option will be in the "bigger moneymaker" side at the end, i would not recommend pushing this split approach.

    But hey, carry on. i could be wrong.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • Kilandros
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    ZOS doesn't need to split PvE from PvP balance; ZOS just needs to put more resources towards balance.

    When One Tamriel launched and virtually killed off class diversity (RIP saptanks), Matt Firor remarked that major balance patches wouldn't be necessary moving forward, just small changes/tweaks. This was of course code for "We aren't going to be investing resources in major balance changes," and that's been pretty clear.

    In all likelihood the balance "team" consists of Wrobel and like two interns trying to make changes on a budget to a game made of spaghetti code without breaking anything. Gl with that.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Nox_Noir
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    With those monthly combat updates it looked like they were trying to balance fewer things at once more regularly, and beeing more transparent about. They looked really good on paper, but the actual changes that resulted from it are as always to a big part odd decisions. And in the end it's just one balance iteration every 3 months or less anyway, except releasing very vague ideas about what might be worked on in the future on a monthly. In the latest combat update from january it sounded like they're already almost given up on that.

    They seem very dedicated to balance PVP and PVE at the same time. I think it's totally possible, they just seem to be doing a pretty poor job at it. Odd decisions that fix things on one end and break it on the other, and waaaaaayyyyy too slow iterations seem to be the main problems. But people have been pointing those out for a long time. At least according to what gina is posting in those monthly combat updates it seems like they are kinda aware of it and trying to iterate in smaller faster increments, I just hope they keep at it and take further steps into that direction.
    Edited by Nox_Noir on February 2, 2018 5:17PM
  • f047ys3v3n
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Is change needed in how game balance is done?

    Would you like to see this change to split between PvP/PvE or keep changes the same to both sides? Please comment with support, opposition or other ideas.

    The short answer is Yes.

    1) Wrobel needs to be fired or reassigned to a task that does not involve understanding combat balance because he does not and as long as he runs it continual difficulties will arise from his lack of understanding.

    2) Cheat engine has to be dealt with as it is not possible to really understand what is OP and what needs a buff when really significant numbers of players are scaling things themselves.

    3) PVE and PVP cannot be balanced together. The reason for this is that PVE and PVP combat do not function the same. For instance, in PVE no mob of any relevance is subject to CC's to so any CC on a skill has no value though the skill will typically cost more and do less damage because it has a CC. Another example is the power of burst damage in PVP. Burst damage has no value in PVE but in PVP it is really most of what matters from a damage out stand point. A DOT that does not tick but rather waits and drops it's damage all at the end is of great value in PVP but is less valuable than a standard DOT in PVE. Which do you scale it's damage and cost for?

    A good example of all this is the Warden birds skill. This is an undogable, unreflectable, ranged spam-able. Right now in PVP it simply too powerful and is probably the most complained about of all skills. However, in PVE it is underpowered since enemies bosses don't dodge or reflect and it does less damage than other similarly priced spamables.

    As for balancing differently not being possible... That is just hoarse ***. Many skills, such as heals, already have less (1/2 in this case) magnitude in PVP than in PVE. Making a skill have a different magnitude in PVP vs PVE is a simple as adding the little change to the battle spirit. All relevant skills could easily have their magnitudes adjusted similarly. This would allow for more overall class DPS balance in PVE and more realistic scaling of currently OP multifaceted skills in PVP. These are not hard things to do, virtually all MMO's already do them. If Wrobel understood balance well at all he would already have done it.
    Edited by f047ys3v3n on February 2, 2018 7:58PM
    Yes I am deeply embarrassed to still be playing this game. I know better.
  • Nestor
    Nestor
    Community Ambassador
    PvP and PvE need to be split in this game. We have known this since Beta.

    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"

  • QuebraRegra
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    split them.

    we've been saying this for years... it needs to be done that way to PVE is not infected by *** PVP changes.
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    split them.

    we've been saying this for years... it needs to be done that way to PVE is not infected by *** PVP changes.

    As I am well aware.
  • Longstride
    Longstride
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    f047ys3v3n wrote: »

    1) Wrobel needs to be fired or reassigned to a task that does not involve understanding combat balance because he does not and as long as he runs it continual difficulties will arise from his lack of understanding.

    Petition signed
    /s/ Longstride
    Edited by Longstride on February 2, 2018 9:08PM
  • Irylia
    Irylia
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    Yea, let me do it.
    Founder: Animosity (Best Guild NA + EU)

    Youtube - TeAiry

    Alpha Sorc:
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    The two time 3rd place Legend duelist (16k hp all divines btw)
  • Morvane
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    all skills need REWORK
    80% of em are nearly the same as in 2014
    but ESO in 2014 was COMPLETELY another game
    DC Dunmer Sorcerer since 2014
    @morvayn54, PC/EU
  • Longstride
    Longstride
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    Morvane wrote: »
    all skills need REWORK
    80% of em are nearly the same as in 2014
    but ESO in 2014 was COMPLETELY another game

    I agree. I feel like I have been beta testing ESO for four years now.
  • Morvane
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    Longstride wrote: »
    Morvane wrote: »
    all skills need REWORK
    80% of em are nearly the same as in 2014
    but ESO in 2014 was COMPLETELY another game

    I agree. I feel like I have been beta testing ESO for four years now.

    yes. just look at nearly perfect balanced warden and other classes
    DC Dunmer Sorcerer since 2014
    @morvayn54, PC/EU
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