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Ok let's have a realistic discussion about MagDK nerfs

  • susniand
    susniand
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    AGAIN, you dont get more powerlashes with latest changes!
    If you were using shattering rocks instead of foselize, you could set multiple enemies offbalance and could powerleash them all, one after another.
    Powerlash musnt have any kind of cooldown!
    Edited by susniand on January 30, 2018 11:03PM
  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sabbathius wrote: »
    What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.

    The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while.

    They are in PvP, just slot Eyes of Mara & start spamming those resto ulties & Healing Wards :smiley:

    Works surprisingly well in BGs, you can really help keep your team alive with that and fossilize spam on enemies.

    Of course that occasionally leaves you cursing the random pug who just stands there holding block & eating your wards while you're also taking damage... but it is what it is.

    they need to give dk healer a magicka scaleing morph of the shield and have it where they don't cancel out the tank morph so they both can be used
    DC PC NA
    magdk- main
    magden alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

  • BroanBeast1215
    BroanBeast1215
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    "underperforming"


    LOL

    cant take you seriously m7+1

    I'm sure saying that is by far the most logical and articulated post in this thread, I mean damn all my supporting information to back up my claims.


    but hey m7? I guess you meant m8,

    +1 yourself


    lol look who can do simple math :) good for you bud :trollface:
    Edited by BroanBeast1215 on January 31, 2018 4:28PM
  • Savos_Saren
    Savos_Saren
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    LonePirate wrote: »
    The main problem with Mag DKs is that there are far too many skills you need to slot to be effective in Cyrodiil than there are slots available for those skills.

    I seldom run with a group and I also put down siege so Rapid Maneuvers and Purge are must haves on my bar. Whip, Petrify, Dragon Blood and Talons take up four more slots leaving just four empty ones.

    I keep a weapon skill slotted for range, usually Force Pulse. I also slot Molten Weapons for the spell and weapon damage buff I try to have up at all times. I’m now down to two empty slots with several other skills I’d like to slot - Chains, Reflective Scales, Stone Fist, Unstable Wall, Igneous Shield, Burning Embers, Draw Essence, Magicka Detonation or Siege Weapon Shield. Do I want to prioritize sieging, flipping flags, 1v1, or XvX? These trade offs impact my survival and success on my DK.

    I don’t have these trade offs on my Sorc and Templar characters. My NB has fewer trade offs and they don’t cause me much concern due to cloak and fear. I don’t have any Warden characters so I cannot comment there. It’s only my Mag DK which suffers because it has to make sacrifices which the other classes do not.

    How would I fix Mag DKs? First, I would increase the damage from Whip. Nobody fears going toe to toe with a Mag DK as they have no class skills (apart from Leap) that inflict any notable damage. Increase the damage from Whip to make people pause before engaging them. Then, drop all of the current off balance and cool down conditions around Power Lash and convert it to an execute that procs some percentage of the time - say 20-33%, even if it means giving up the heal from Power Lash. There is no reason why Whip should not do the same amount of damage as the melee weapon skills.

    For some reason, ZOS thought it would be a good idea to create a melee range class that does not inflict a lot of individual and immediate skill damage in PVP. With the Mag DK sustain problems, they aren’t providing much prolonged damage, either. I don’t think ZOS learned the correct lessons from the all powerful Vamp DKs with dynamic ult gen that ruled Cyrodiil when the game launched. Current Mag DKs are the result of the failure to learn those lessons.

    @LonePirate
    I can't add more than one "Agree" on here- so I'll just repost your quote and say that it's 100% amazing. I cannot express enough that an AvA oriented mDK in Cyrodiil cannot be built like some of these powerful dueling builds. Builds like @DDuke are amazing for 1v1 or a 1vStragglers- but in no way, whatsoever, can it help a group of 12v12.

    I use a SnB and Destro build on my Cyrodiil crowd control setup:

    We're supposed to be using Talons for crowd control.
    Draw Essence for damage and heals while CCing a crowd.
    Volatile Armor for keeping our resistances up while getting beat down as we CC.
    Molten Armaments to buff ourselves and our group.
    Burning Embers and Flame Lash to keep us alive and damage people while we're fighting through a group.
    Eruption to further CC people and hopefully return some stamina to us.
    Dragon Blood when there's no enemy to tag in order to heal ourselves... because we're getting ranged from a keep.
    Reflective Scales because of ranged attacks.
    Stone Fist for my personal ranged attack and a stun. (I prefer this over Flame Reach or Force Pulse)

    So where in the hell does Flames of Oblivion (for crit or burst), Purge (to cleanse our own DoTs), Magicka Detonation (for burst potential), Chains (for our expedition), Igneous Shield (for our shield), etc supposed to go?

    Other classes have most of the useful passive effects build into one of their single abilities. For instance:
    Falcon's Swiftness: Speed, recovery, extra damage/dodge
    Refreshing Path: Speed, self heal, damage, max resistances
    Lightning Form: Speed, damage, max resistances, and the possibility of a passive execute
    Templar skill: Sorry bud. I wish they'd give you some form of expedition.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    LonePirate wrote: »
    The main problem with Mag DKs is that there are far too many skills you need to slot to be effective in Cyrodiil than there are slots available for those skills.

    I seldom run with a group and I also put down siege so Rapid Maneuvers and Purge are must haves on my bar. Whip, Petrify, Dragon Blood and Talons take up four more slots leaving just four empty ones.

    I keep a weapon skill slotted for range, usually Force Pulse. I also slot Molten Weapons for the spell and weapon damage buff I try to have up at all times. I’m now down to two empty slots with several other skills I’d like to slot - Chains, Reflective Scales, Stone Fist, Unstable Wall, Igneous Shield, Burning Embers, Draw Essence, Magicka Detonation or Siege Weapon Shield. Do I want to prioritize sieging, flipping flags, 1v1, or XvX? These trade offs impact my survival and success on my DK.

    I don’t have these trade offs on my Sorc and Templar characters. My NB has fewer trade offs and they don’t cause me much concern due to cloak and fear. I don’t have any Warden characters so I cannot comment there. It’s only my Mag DK which suffers because it has to make sacrifices which the other classes do not.

    How would I fix Mag DKs? First, I would increase the damage from Whip. Nobody fears going toe to toe with a Mag DK as they have no class skills (apart from Leap) that inflict any notable damage. Increase the damage from Whip to make people pause before engaging them. Then, drop all of the current off balance and cool down conditions around Power Lash and convert it to an execute that procs some percentage of the time - say 20-33%, even if it means giving up the heal from Power Lash. There is no reason why Whip should not do the same amount of damage as the melee weapon skills.

    For some reason, ZOS thought it would be a good idea to create a melee range class that does not inflict a lot of individual and immediate skill damage in PVP. With the Mag DK sustain problems, they aren’t providing much prolonged damage, either. I don’t think ZOS learned the correct lessons from the all powerful Vamp DKs with dynamic ult gen that ruled Cyrodiil when the game launched. Current Mag DKs are the result of the failure to learn those lessons.

    @LonePirate
    I can't add more than one "Agree" on here- so I'll just repost your quote and say that it's 100% amazing. I cannot express enough that an AvA oriented mDK in Cyrodiil cannot be built like some of these powerful dueling builds. Builds like @DDuke are amazing for 1v1 or a 1vStragglers- but in no way, whatsoever, can it help a group of 12v12.

    Dunno about 12v12, but in BGs destro/resto is pretty good as you can play the healer role as well and keep the team alive. In bigger fights of course Healing Ward gets far less value (Healing Springs/Combat Prayer etc would all be more powerful there.

    It can work, it's just a different type of DK than what probably is the norm & what people expect. Rather than playing the "tank" role, you're playing the "healer" role. Or the DPS role if you just want to nuke people (you can replace Scales with Deto).


    But I don't really play "large scale PvP", way too laggy & chaotic for my taste - so maybe I'm wrong (I'll leave it to someone else to test the playstyle in zerg vs zerg environment) :p
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • GoodFella146
    GoodFella146
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    We have been nerfed on the following since Morrowind dropped

    •Battle roar nerf (our ONLY form of sustain)
    •Helping hands nerf (another form of sustain)

    ????????
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
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    We have been nerfed on the following since Morrowind dropped

    •Battle roar nerf (our ONLY form of sustain)
    •Helping hands nerf (another form of sustain)

    ????????

    Our = Mag dk
    helping hands = only stamina. For stamina dd's


    Both subsequently nerfed to complete *** to compensate pvp whiners on useless tanks


    Is that clearer for you??????????
  • CrazYDunm3r
    CrazYDunm3r
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    What if I tell you guys... don't scream... but it is possible to 1vX with MagDK in open world without a lot of LOS in a no-CP campaign :open_mouth: Even there it is possible to sustain...

    Edit: PvP wise the class is fine imo, maybe lower some skill costs because we get some "fixes" that hurt our sustain a bit, but overall in PvP you shouldn't have too many problems
    Edited by CrazYDunm3r on February 1, 2018 10:06AM
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  • Haquor
    Haquor
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    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    Oh. My. God.
  • Longstride
    Longstride
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    Sabbathius wrote: »
    What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.

    The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while. When was the last time you guys say a DK main-heal a vet trial? Especially a leaderboard vet trial? Well, shouldn't that need fixing? Unless "play the way you like" is just hogwash.

    Similarly, review DPS as DK, with emphasis on lack of range and execute options. It's fine if you want the class to be DoT-based. It's fine to want them to be upclose. But you also can't have these guys doing as much DPS as classes that can do it from 28m away, and which significantly outshine DKs in execute phase. There has to be sufficient compensation for being in harm's way.

    And the same goes for every other class. When was the last time you saw a NB tank a vet trial? Not since their Sap Tanks got gutted, and they were pretty rare before that. Or a Sorc main-heal? As long as these things are the norm, and we're focusing on individual nerfs, the game will remain broken overall.

    Ideally I would like to see every class well capable and even desirable at each role - tanking, healing and DPS. They may do them in different ways. To use WoW as an example, a bear druid tank tanked with dodge and agility, by avoiding damage. A warrior tank tanked by blocking the damage. Paladin tank tanked by a mix of blocking and healing through it. And so on. And each one of these tanks was perfectly competitive, and depending on specific boss it often made sense to switch the main tank and off-tank, which made every class tank optimal somewhere. The way Warden was done was interesting. They got a distinct DPS tree, healing tree and tanking tree. And while they still need some tweaking, the framework is there. But the older classes are not so well laid out.

    Fixing that FIRST, because it is meta-level stuff, and THEN worrying about individual skills is the way to go, in my opinion. Crying over Whip or dodgeable Searing Strike isn't going to do much in a long run, because passives and the rest of the framework will remain largely useless, with obsolete, non-competitive skills. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a DK use Cauterize?

    The play the way you want mantra that encouraged build diversity has been steadily eroded since Wroble has been allowed to cast vision for the classes. He is on record saying DKs are tanks, Templars are healers. He is out of step with the over arching theme of every class bringing a unique style of play and unique group utility to the table regardless of the role they fill. You see this in many changes implemented over the last several updates.

    I find this extraordinarily disheartening because it was one of the aspects of ESO that drew me to the game. Any class could fill any role, they simply approached it in a unique way that gave you a variety of playstyles across the same role. Lack of itemization balance and the very large discrepancy between meta and all other choices is another gripe of mine, but that's another topic altogether...
    Edited by Longstride on February 1, 2018 3:27PM
  • Zinaroth
    Zinaroth
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    The issue is that the Magdk spec, and the stam dk to a lesser extent, already underperform in PvP.

    As a Stamplar main this is where I realized that were was going to be nothing realistic about the DK discussion in this thread.
    Zin A'roth | Orc | Stamplar | Ebontard Packed | Bleaker's Role Player | 27335/30645 Achievements | 3632/3653 Lorebooks | Original Hodor January 2015 | YouTube | Twitch | EU
    Father to a new born son, slave to a master's degree thesis. And I will have my sleep, in this life or the next...
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Zinaroth wrote: »
    The issue is that the Magdk spec, and the stam dk to a lesser extent, already underperform in PvP.

    As a Stamplar main this is where I realized that were was going to be nothing realistic about the DK discussion in this thread.

    MagDK vs StamDK for PvP is complicated. Stam has much less as a class than Mag. But very strong stam tools like fury, old seventh, asylum 2h etc exist for stam as a whole that allows them to synergise with the heavy/tanky playstyle without losing too much. Being able to use battle roar more frequently, and use heavies for main stat sustain, and access to decentish mobility. FM and stam/immo/speed pots. (No mag varients of those pots exist) They generally get better 1vX because these stam builds are meta, despite being the worst stam build though.

    But on the flip side, stamDK is absolutely awful elsewhere PvP. Low lockdown and pressure with dots. Healing is OK at best, group support doesn't exist, both small and large.

    MagDK is one of the best for 1v1 areas, having good single target lockdown and pressure, and healing whilst damaging, making it super strong in cqc. But in openworld solo they are screwed, having the worst mobility and sustain in the game to deal with multiple enemies. They can provide some support in small groups, but doesn't specialise as a healer/bomber etc in larger ones

    Its hard to change any of this without breaking either class in some way.
    Edited by ak_pvp on February 1, 2018 4:50PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Drakkdjinn
    Drakkdjinn
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

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  • Rainingblood
    Rainingblood
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    Quantum_V wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????
    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    This is more trolly than my troll post.

    Not troll. Just tater.
    Phoebe Anderson
  • Rainingblood
    Rainingblood
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    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

    On what planet are Magicka DKs underperforming in PvP? Cause it sure ain't Nirn. 1v1 they are practically unkillable by Sorcs, at the very least they can stretch out the fight for a long time. Good DKs don't let that happen, though. They just CC you and clobber you with a Leap.

    Killing yourself from hard-casting Frags?
    Phoebe Anderson
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    I mean, if that DK timed the burst and you happened to be all divines and infused running sorc with no defense other than shields... of course you will die. Other than that short amount of time, there's no way a mDK can actually kill you. It requires a mDK to actually time the burst the moment soec shield drops. I'd say that is a skillful play. MDKs had trouble killing my sorc because I never dropped shields and timed my own burst. Not even max damage mDK builds can eat through shields so fast. Their dot ticks are more like free magicka for harness magicka.
    Edited by IZZEFlameLash on February 2, 2018 4:46AM
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
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    I just want a reply from ZOS at this point. Are dks going to recieve any more changes this pts cycle or do we have to wait till next patch like 3 months from now?

    Its clear they’re set in stone on the whip changes, just tell me they’re gonna give us something after taking away so much.

    If not might as well start discussing the medium armor build you all will be running when this drops.

    Im rockin 5 skakle breaker all well fitted with 5 impregnable 1 pc domihaus 5-1-1 on my stamblade. I’ll run the Atro mundus for the cloak sustain. 100 points into befoul with tri stat drain posions on my back bar, defiler poisons on my frontbar for maximum Toxicity. : D

    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • Gorrest
    Gorrest
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    Nerf Skoria, enough said.
    -PvP Characters-

    AD Mag DK, Mc Flabben
    AD Mag Templar, Gorrest
    AD Mag Sorc, Edrene Kingsley
    AD MagWarden, Mc Woflen
    EP Stam Sorc, Elder Procs Online
    DC Stam DK, One Shot Online
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Gorrest wrote: »
    Nerf Skoria, enough said.

    Lol that was random. Skoria is fine. It's proc chance is not too much or not too low. Any other class not sorc specifically built to use it can use it to even the odds with higher damage of stam builds.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Slick_007
    Slick_007
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    I can't even respond to this because my hand is to busy holding my face at how ignorant and wrong this post is

    lol, coming from the person who posted https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/389508/nerf-meridia-s-blessed-armor-set/p1 thats pretty funny
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