Sabbathius wrote: »What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.
The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while.
They are in PvP, just slot Eyes of Mara & start spamming those resto ulties & Healing Wards
Works surprisingly well in BGs, you can really help keep your team alive with that and fossilize spam on enemies.
Of course that occasionally leaves you cursing the random pug who just stands there holding block & eating your wards while you're also taking damage... but it is what it is.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »BroanBeast1215 wrote: »"underperforming"
LOL
cant take you seriously m7+1
I'm sure saying that is by far the most logical and articulated post in this thread, I mean damn all my supporting information to back up my claims.
but hey m7? I guess you meant m8,
+1 yourself
LonePirate wrote: »The main problem with Mag DKs is that there are far too many skills you need to slot to be effective in Cyrodiil than there are slots available for those skills.
I seldom run with a group and I also put down siege so Rapid Maneuvers and Purge are must haves on my bar. Whip, Petrify, Dragon Blood and Talons take up four more slots leaving just four empty ones.
I keep a weapon skill slotted for range, usually Force Pulse. I also slot Molten Weapons for the spell and weapon damage buff I try to have up at all times. I’m now down to two empty slots with several other skills I’d like to slot - Chains, Reflective Scales, Stone Fist, Unstable Wall, Igneous Shield, Burning Embers, Draw Essence, Magicka Detonation or Siege Weapon Shield. Do I want to prioritize sieging, flipping flags, 1v1, or XvX? These trade offs impact my survival and success on my DK.
I don’t have these trade offs on my Sorc and Templar characters. My NB has fewer trade offs and they don’t cause me much concern due to cloak and fear. I don’t have any Warden characters so I cannot comment there. It’s only my Mag DK which suffers because it has to make sacrifices which the other classes do not.
How would I fix Mag DKs? First, I would increase the damage from Whip. Nobody fears going toe to toe with a Mag DK as they have no class skills (apart from Leap) that inflict any notable damage. Increase the damage from Whip to make people pause before engaging them. Then, drop all of the current off balance and cool down conditions around Power Lash and convert it to an execute that procs some percentage of the time - say 20-33%, even if it means giving up the heal from Power Lash. There is no reason why Whip should not do the same amount of damage as the melee weapon skills.
For some reason, ZOS thought it would be a good idea to create a melee range class that does not inflict a lot of individual and immediate skill damage in PVP. With the Mag DK sustain problems, they aren’t providing much prolonged damage, either. I don’t think ZOS learned the correct lessons from the all powerful Vamp DKs with dynamic ult gen that ruled Cyrodiil when the game launched. Current Mag DKs are the result of the failure to learn those lessons.
Savos_Saren wrote: »LonePirate wrote: »The main problem with Mag DKs is that there are far too many skills you need to slot to be effective in Cyrodiil than there are slots available for those skills.
I seldom run with a group and I also put down siege so Rapid Maneuvers and Purge are must haves on my bar. Whip, Petrify, Dragon Blood and Talons take up four more slots leaving just four empty ones.
I keep a weapon skill slotted for range, usually Force Pulse. I also slot Molten Weapons for the spell and weapon damage buff I try to have up at all times. I’m now down to two empty slots with several other skills I’d like to slot - Chains, Reflective Scales, Stone Fist, Unstable Wall, Igneous Shield, Burning Embers, Draw Essence, Magicka Detonation or Siege Weapon Shield. Do I want to prioritize sieging, flipping flags, 1v1, or XvX? These trade offs impact my survival and success on my DK.
I don’t have these trade offs on my Sorc and Templar characters. My NB has fewer trade offs and they don’t cause me much concern due to cloak and fear. I don’t have any Warden characters so I cannot comment there. It’s only my Mag DK which suffers because it has to make sacrifices which the other classes do not.
How would I fix Mag DKs? First, I would increase the damage from Whip. Nobody fears going toe to toe with a Mag DK as they have no class skills (apart from Leap) that inflict any notable damage. Increase the damage from Whip to make people pause before engaging them. Then, drop all of the current off balance and cool down conditions around Power Lash and convert it to an execute that procs some percentage of the time - say 20-33%, even if it means giving up the heal from Power Lash. There is no reason why Whip should not do the same amount of damage as the melee weapon skills.
For some reason, ZOS thought it would be a good idea to create a melee range class that does not inflict a lot of individual and immediate skill damage in PVP. With the Mag DK sustain problems, they aren’t providing much prolonged damage, either. I don’t think ZOS learned the correct lessons from the all powerful Vamp DKs with dynamic ult gen that ruled Cyrodiil when the game launched. Current Mag DKs are the result of the failure to learn those lessons.
@LonePirate
I can't add more than one "Agree" on here- so I'll just repost your quote and say that it's 100% amazing. I cannot express enough that an AvA oriented mDK in Cyrodiil cannot be built like some of these powerful dueling builds. Builds like @DDuke are amazing for 1v1 or a 1vStragglers- but in no way, whatsoever, can it help a group of 12v12.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »We have been nerfed on the following since Morrowind dropped
•Battle roar nerf (our ONLY form of sustain)
•Helping hands nerf (another form of sustain)
GoodFella146 wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »We have been nerfed on the following since Morrowind dropped
•Battle roar nerf (our ONLY form of sustain)
•Helping hands nerf (another form of sustain)
????????
DK's are underperforming in PVP?????
Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?
Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.
Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.
If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does
Sabbathius wrote: »What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.
The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while. When was the last time you guys say a DK main-heal a vet trial? Especially a leaderboard vet trial? Well, shouldn't that need fixing? Unless "play the way you like" is just hogwash.
Similarly, review DPS as DK, with emphasis on lack of range and execute options. It's fine if you want the class to be DoT-based. It's fine to want them to be upclose. But you also can't have these guys doing as much DPS as classes that can do it from 28m away, and which significantly outshine DKs in execute phase. There has to be sufficient compensation for being in harm's way.
And the same goes for every other class. When was the last time you saw a NB tank a vet trial? Not since their Sap Tanks got gutted, and they were pretty rare before that. Or a Sorc main-heal? As long as these things are the norm, and we're focusing on individual nerfs, the game will remain broken overall.
Ideally I would like to see every class well capable and even desirable at each role - tanking, healing and DPS. They may do them in different ways. To use WoW as an example, a bear druid tank tanked with dodge and agility, by avoiding damage. A warrior tank tanked by blocking the damage. Paladin tank tanked by a mix of blocking and healing through it. And so on. And each one of these tanks was perfectly competitive, and depending on specific boss it often made sense to switch the main tank and off-tank, which made every class tank optimal somewhere. The way Warden was done was interesting. They got a distinct DPS tree, healing tree and tanking tree. And while they still need some tweaking, the framework is there. But the older classes are not so well laid out.
Fixing that FIRST, because it is meta-level stuff, and THEN worrying about individual skills is the way to go, in my opinion. Crying over Whip or dodgeable Searing Strike isn't going to do much in a long run, because passives and the rest of the framework will remain largely useless, with obsolete, non-competitive skills. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a DK use Cauterize?
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »The issue is that the Magdk spec, and the stam dk to a lesser extent, already underperform in PvP.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »The issue is that the Magdk spec, and the stam dk to a lesser extent, already underperform in PvP.
As a Stamplar main this is where I realized that were was going to be nothing realistic about the DK discussion in this thread.
Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.
You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".
Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.
Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".
I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.
Emma_Overload wrote: »DK's are underperforming in PVP?????
Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?
Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.
Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.
If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!
On what planet are Magicka DKs underperforming in PvP? Cause it sure ain't Nirn. 1v1 they are practically unkillable by Sorcs, at the very least they can stretch out the fight for a long time. Good DKs don't let that happen, though. They just CC you and clobber you with a Leap.
Nerf Skoria, enough said.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
I can't even respond to this because my hand is to busy holding my face at how ignorant and wrong this post is