Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
I read them, the notes mentioned the skill and it's morphs. Rather confusing, what moron would use an un-morphed skill like that, especially because un-morphed means it is a melee skill
You need to remember that there are 2 sides to every class. So whatever people come up with, they need to compliment stam DK's also, which is where balancing a DK becomes confusing as both classes have previously dominated meta's.
If you strongly feel magic DK's should be a DoT class. I will agree on one condition. I would be happy seeing all DoT's get a buff as long as the Magic Version of leap gets nerfed. Otherwise Magic DK's get alot of damage along with a huge shield and resource return (granted a very small resource return post Morrowind)
I feel as if stam DK's are pretty much the opposite: They can hit pretty hard with an ultimate but venomous claw and poison injection are outdone by jabs and surprise attack when it comes to dps (in PvP, I know they are strong in PvE)
This wouldn't be a problem if dizzying swing was actually good, but it isn't, and without it DK's lack a solid CC and a good bit of direct damage.
Other than these things, some things I'd like to bring up are the lack of heals DK's get in PvP (Igneous paired with vigor used to be good but an incap destroys all healing now, and most Magic DK heals rely heavily on being within melee distance)
I would like to see an entire passive rework built from the ground up with Battle Roar/helping hands in mind. As all passives are now very outdated with Morrowind.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
I read them, the notes mentioned the skill and it's morphs. Rather confusing, what moron would use an un-morphed skill like that, especially because un-morphed means it is a melee skill
Who knows, but that's not really my point here.
Savos_Saren wrote: »Hell, even a passive execute in the combustion line...
Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.
You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".
Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.
Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".
I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.
Savos_Saren wrote: »Hell, even a passive execute in the combustion line...
As long as it is like the DW passive and not like Implosion
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
I read them, the notes mentioned the skill and it's morphs. Rather confusing, what moron would use an un-morphed skill like that, especially because un-morphed means it is a melee skill
Who knows, but that's not really my point here.
Your point is made more invalid by mentioning it. DK needs a bit of love, like a small cost reduction passive or a regen pasive but nothing drastic at all. It's not like DK is unplayable
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.
You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".
Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.
Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".
I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.
•Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.
You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".
Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.
Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".
I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.
•Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters
8 meters
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
I read them, the notes mentioned the skill and it's morphs. Rather confusing, what moron would use an un-morphed skill like that, especially because un-morphed means it is a melee skill
Who knows, but that's not really my point here.
Your point is made more invalid by mentioning it. DK needs a bit of love, like a small cost reduction passive or a regen pasive but nothing drastic at all. It's not like DK is unplayable
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.
You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".
Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.
Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".
I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.
•Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »•Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource
Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
Developer Comments:This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »•Helping hands was a flat nerf to return
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »•you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf
Realistically I understand these nerfs - and yes, making your skills dodgeable are nerfs, specially when considering that getting a double whip in PTS is extremelly rare even with bash animation cancels - it is a way to balance the game. Make embers dodgeable and blockable? Sounds perfect to me, I see no issue what-so-ever in that.
The true problem arrises when we put mDK in perspective. mDK passives haven't been updated in ages, they barely have room in the actual meta, they've lost their identity (and by identity I mean: the reason why people picked this class over others in the first place) which is the capability to hold their ground with the nerf to heavy armor, battleroar and blocking. In sum, the problem is nerfing a class that literally can't take any more nerfs, we NEED changes, we NEED to be updated to the current state of the game.
Yes, ZoS, I know this isn't a balancing patch. But the changes you made to mDK, even if they're not focused on what you guys call 'balance' they do affect the overall state of mDKs. I truly believe favorable winds will blow in the future, on the next balancing patch. It's impossible for ZoS not to have realized how outdated mDKS (and I'll dare say stamDKs too) are. But how long will that take? 6 months? Are we supposed to be the underdogs of solo open world pvp and pve for this long? At this point we're not receiving changes, we're receiving plain out nerfs.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »and the stam dk to a lesser extent
Found the guy who's never played Stam DK
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »and the stam dk to a lesser extent
Found the guy who's never played Stam DK
I have, and I understand the issues.
But stam dk does have better mobility with access to working gap closers, and executes in both the 2h skill line, and the bow skill line.
I'm under no allusions they are fairing a lot
better but that do have a different set of issues with relying solely on dizzy swing and leap combo's
Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.
You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".
Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.
Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".
I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.
•Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters
And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.Nelson_Rebel wrote: »•Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource
Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.
If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:Earthen Heart
Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
Developer Comments:This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.Nelson_Rebel wrote: »•Helping hands was a flat nerf to return
Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.
See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.
Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.
Quite a "nerf".Nelson_Rebel wrote: »•you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf
Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.
If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.
I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong
I would say stamdk underperforms more, if not for being stam and having access to strong stam sets and better synergy as a tankier person. This is as a magdk main.
Issues:
But that aside, both dks are outdated. Lacking as much mobility or burst without sacrificing defense. This is due to the tank playstyle leading to low damage and slow movement. The only class without a good class defense. I mean, sure 10% extra blocking which is 5% mit, but blocking isn't great anymore, and any other class can do other defense better. I.e. Sorcs better shields, nb has shields with cloak etc.
It has passives balanced around the old days, where dynamic ultimate was strong and soft caps existed, so a health recovery stat wasn't as bad. Then that was removed, and Co came along. All this ended up with passives being generally OK at best. WOR is also almost useless as a stamdk unless using a bad ult.
Executes: we don't have one, Historically we had the better dots, and then power whip which dealt about the same in pvp, like wrath and beam it was undodgable and the extra damage on a spammable made up for it in pve. That is less so the case now.
This patch and ahead:
The damage on a dk can be good, and needs no changes. The lash change is annoying because the proc can be 100% halted by immunity, range or dodging early. But it did get buffs in a stun, higher exploiter and more frequent in most occasions, except lightning builds and when interrupting.
Embers is fair enough. I would change the range so its less clunky. Its so hard to use in hof too, if on the sides.
Wings change was a fix, but it still takes status effects, and too much is unreflectable. Its broken so quick in 1vx but too strong vs some in 1v1. Therefore I think it should be 4s again, but be 3 projectiles per target in stead. Much fairer all around. And reflect/deflect bird and pulse. Come on. No special treatment pls. We have little ranged counter, stonefist isn't an interesting choice, wings is bad, and Foss is melee. Chains to an extent, but that still has issues.
Mobility. Dk isn't fast, and shouldn't be, but it shouldn't rely on the terror that is mist, or God forbit using a 2h. Wings other morph removing snares for 4s makes it unique class wise, but not as tanky as mist or as long as fm. Just a small help for slow dks to not be snared to heck. Stam dks can then use rally heal, which would be a massive help to them, especially with the 7th nerf.
It fits the unstoppable ~dragon~knight theme. Slow but steady.
Sustain? I mean please. Const is nerfed, Dr isn't op anymore, roar has been nerfed repetitively, morrow sustain changes hit hard and obviously cost poisons exist and siphoner exists. Please give us a bone here. Stam can sort of deal with it with ultra gen and heavies with 2h/s&b (inb4 use staff) dk is a tank class zos confirmed.
Not asking for better damage, it's fine as is, nor better lock down, nor special undodgable abilities, nor range. Just to be the steady melee survive burn class we once were, instead of being snared 90% and ran out of resources as our dots dissappear.
Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »and the stam dk to a lesser extent
Found the guy who's never played Stam DK
I have, and I understand the issues.
But stam dk does have better mobility with access to working gap closers, and executes in both the 2h skill line, and the bow skill line.
I'm under no allusions they are fairing a lot
better but that do have a different set of issues with relying solely on dizzy swing and leap combo's
Having just leveled a Mag DK, and having mained a Stam DK for 2 and a half years I can tell you honestly that Mag DK is not OP, but not in a bad place compared to Stam DK. It needs some slight buffs. While Stam Dk is literally broken. It's the worst class currently by a large margin in PVP, and it's bad at every facet of PVP.
DK's are underperforming in PVP?????
Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.