Make Crystal Frags Great Again!
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) and outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.Edited by Derra on January 25, 2018 9:53AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?
Well, then we can agree to disagree. It's exactly the same logic of building a setup that I follow when building a tank, most non-sorcs I talk to feel exactly the same: Priority nr1: sustain (stam + mag), priority nr. 2: squeeze out enough dmg to be able to kill something - that's a tank approach. Just a class flavored one since mag sorcs tankyness scales with main stat sustain.
From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) that outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.
Or maybe, just maybe your are disconnected from any other setup that is not a magNB or magSorc (who both have very offensive passives & actives) and fail to realistically put those in line with other setups to realize that the approach to the build is very similar to what tanks go for.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 9:56AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.
I have not met such a sorc setup since morrowind.
I´ve made ~35 million ap since then.
Also see my edits. It makes no sense for sorc to incorporate dmg sets currently as there is no dmg set available for the class that is beneficial to equip.
Edit: Atleast you understand now why some people think every build with sword and board is a cockroach build. It´s the same string of arguments you´re making.
Yet i take you´d argu vehemently against that.Edited by Derra on January 25, 2018 10:02AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.
I have not met such a sorc since morrowind.
I´ve made ~35 million ap since then.
You do realize how weak your comment just was, right? How little it contributes to any discussion... How does your AP earned make any difference to anecdotes presented?Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 9:59AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
I think Ezareth was the most useless, overrated sorc ever. Yes, I have played magSorc, too when he was playing. You can find some old threads where I'm saying exactly the same thing to him. His prominently displayed max sustain setups are exactly why you guys suffer bolt escape penalty now.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 10:04AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy2 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
I think Ezareth was the most useless, overrated sorc ever. Yes, I have played magSorc, too when he was playing. You can find some old threads where I'm saying exactly the same thing to him.
So you're saying that you should, as a mag sorc, build for crazy damage and ignore your stam sustain completely? In open world where you have to rolldodge and use dark conversion constantly? Because that's what you wrote 3 posts up. When have you last played magsorc? Because it sounds like it's been a very long time.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
I think Ezareth was the most useless, overrated sorc ever. Yes, I have played magSorc, too when he was playing. You can find some old threads where I'm saying exactly the same thing to him.
So you're saying that you should, as a mag sorc, build for crazy damage and ignore your stam sustain completely? In open world where you have to rolldodge and use dark conversion constantly? Because that's what you wrote 3 posts up. When have you last played magsorc? Because it sounds like it's been a very long time.
Nope, I never said that. I said building up on two sustain sets is the same approach a tank setup of another class would follow. So why not putting it in the same category?Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 10:07AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.
....
Edit: Atleast you understand now why some people think every build with sword and board is a cockroach build. It´s the same string of arguments you´re making.
Yet i take you´d argu vehemently against that.
Because I run 3 damage sets with my light armor build, not a single sustain set. Because the reliance on sustain sets makes for the same quality of gameplay like facing a tank.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) that outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.
Or maybe, just maybe your are disconnected from any other setup that is not a magNB or magSorc (who both have very offensive passives & actives) and fail to realistically put those in line with other setups to realize that the approach to the build is very similar to what tanks go for.
I´m playing magsorc, magbladem, stamsorc and stamblade at the moment solo in open world.
Try again.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) that outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.
Or maybe, just maybe your are disconnected from any other setup that is not a magNB or magSorc (who both have very offensive passives & actives) and fail to realistically put those in line with other setups to realize that the approach to the build is very similar to what tanks go for.
I´m playing magsorc, magbladem, stamsorc and stamblade at the moment solo in open world.
Try again.
Ok, why do I see you PvPing 99% on magSorc when logging in? Are you really trying to imply you possess the same firsthand playing experience and ability to assess setups compared to your mag setups? Try again.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.
....
Edit: Atleast you understand now why some people think every build with sword and board is a cockroach build. It´s the same string of arguments you´re making.
Yet i take you´d argu vehemently against that.
Because I run 3 damage sets with my light armor build, not a single sustain set. Because the reliance on sustain sets makes for the same quality of gameplay like facing a tank.
It is not beneficial on magsorc to equip dmg sets. You trade sustain for no dmg gain.
Also equipping 1h shield buffs your defense and utility so much that it becomes favorable to run 3x dmg. If you didn´t crutch on 1h shield you couldn´t run the setup.
Recognize that string of logic?Edited by Derra on January 25, 2018 10:12AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.
....
Edit: Atleast you understand now why some people think every build with sword and board is a cockroach build. It´s the same string of arguments you´re making.
Yet i take you´d argu vehemently against that.
Because I run 3 damage sets with my light armor build, not a single sustain set. Because the reliance on sustain sets makes for the same quality of gameplay like facing a tank.
It is not beneficial on magsorc to equip dmg sets. You trade sustain for no dmg gain.
Well, I disagree, after meeting some sorcs who put out noticably more damage than others. Not relying on ult combos at all. You are a sustain lover since day 1 (no offense at all). But I do think you tend to oversustain, where maybe others would try to undersustain to squeeze out more dmg?Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 10:14AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Which damage sets to begin with?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tired of argueing with a bunch of sorcs tryharding class biased forum defense to alter my semantics when, in fact, I just wanted to express support for the readjustment of former nerfs.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 10:17AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) that outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.
Or maybe, just maybe your are disconnected from any other setup that is not a magNB or magSorc (who both have very offensive passives & actives) and fail to realistically put those in line with other setups to realize that the approach to the build is very similar to what tanks go for.
I´m playing magsorc, magbladem, stamsorc and stamblade at the moment solo in open world.
Try again.
Ok, why do I see you PvPing 99% on magSorc when logging in? Are you really trying to imply you possess the same firsthand playing experience and ability to assess setups compared to your mag setups? Try again.
well atleast i´m not telling someone somethign about a class i don´t play.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) that outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.
Or maybe, just maybe your are disconnected from any other setup that is not a magNB or magSorc (who both have very offensive passives & actives) and fail to realistically put those in line with other setups to realize that the approach to the build is very similar to what tanks go for.
I´m playing magsorc, magbladem, stamsorc and stamblade at the moment solo in open world.
Try again.
Ok, why do I see you PvPing 99% on magSorc when logging in? Are you really trying to imply you possess the same firsthand playing experience and ability to assess setups compared to your mag setups? Try again.
well atleast i´m not telling someone somethign about a class i don´t play.
I am not. I am just putting the build approach of a certain setup into the same category as I would others sustain/tank setups, since both favor defense/sustain over offense. Is that really so hard to understand?Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
That can be said about almost every PvP build (only exceptions would be medium armor templar, dk and sorc - simply because it's barely possible to become tanky enough on these). A stamblade with enough magicka and stamina regen is also a tank in disguise. The problem is that it's simply not worth to go for damage in this meta: I lose around 8% damage in total while getting around 30% more stamregen and magregen (raw damage boni should get increased by ~20% imo).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Tired of argueing with a bunch of sorcs tryharding class biased forum defense to alter my semantics when, in fact, I just wanted to express support for the readjustment of former nerfs.
When you do it in a way that tries to discredit anyone still trying to play the class currently it does not come of sincere support.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »From time to time these days you meet sorcs who have noticably more damage than the shackle-lich setups, who can actually kill without ult combo. Their tradeoff is, they can't break free forever and can't sustain forever. As it should be - risk - reward. No clue what they run, but fighting those guys versus fighting shackle + lich setups is resembling very well how it feels fighting other classes tank setups versus other classes burst setups.
So yeah, I stand to my point: If you have not a single damage set in your build, but go for sustain & semi-sustain only - thats a tank setup.
....
Edit: Atleast you understand now why some people think every build with sword and board is a cockroach build. It´s the same string of arguments you´re making.
Yet i take you´d argu vehemently against that.
Because I run 3 damage sets with my light armor build, not a single sustain set. Because the reliance on sustain sets makes for the same quality of gameplay like facing a tank.
It is not beneficial on magsorc to equip dmg sets. You trade sustain for no dmg gain.
Well, I disagree, after meeting some sorcs who put out noticably more damage than others. Not relying on ult combos at all. You are a sustain lover since day 1 (no offense at all). But I do think you tend to oversustain, where maybe others would try to undersustain to squeeze out more dmg?
I don´t rely on ult combos aswell.
Nor do i think i tend to oversustain. I ran lich bsw 2x kena for all of homestead.
Currently there is just no dmg set on sorc that is favorable to equip.
3.2k spelldmg + 46k magica from shackle lich is very hart to beat currently.Edited by Derra on January 25, 2018 10:23AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Tired of argueing with a bunch of sorcs tryharding class biased forum defense to alter my semantics when, in fact, I just wanted to express support the readjustment of former nerfs.
I don’t think semantics are the issue. Whether it’s a tank approach or not, it’s about the only approach the class has left apart from niche builds like Overload gank approaches or running with base sustain only. Stacking damage is not that beneficial when your burst takes so long as is so highly telegraphed.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
That can be said about almost every PvP build (only exceptions would be medium armor templar, dk and sorc - simply because it's barely possible to become tanky enough on these). A stamblade with enough magicka and stamina regen is also a tank in disguise. The problem is that it's simply not worth to go for damage in this meta: I lose around 8% damage in total while getting around 30% more stamregen and magregen (raw damage boni should get increased by ~20% imo).
I agree to some extend. Doesn't make the setup mentioned any less sustain/defense focused, which I think produces less attractive gameplay and would fit into the same category/philosophy of making a tank build. That's literally all I said, admittedly my choice of words was not the most political correct one. But the message stays the same and I don't see anything wrong with it.
Apparently, you are not allowed to say such things, to not make Derra go full nerdrage mode and his fanboys following up with the pitchforks. Sad.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 10:27AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Tired of argueing with a bunch of sorcs tryharding class biased forum defense to alter my semantics when, in fact, I just wanted to express support the readjustment of former nerfs.
I don’t think semantics are the issue. Whether it’s a tank approach or not, it’s about the only approach the class has left apart from niche builds like Overload gank approaches or running with base sustain only. Stacking damage is not that beneficial when your burst takes so long as is so highly telegraphed.
I didn't even question that. I stated in my first post, that I hope readjusting former nerfs would change that...Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Tired of argueing with a bunch of sorcs tryharding class biased forum defense to alter my semantics when, in fact, I just wanted to express support the readjustment of former nerfs.
I don’t think semantics are the issue. Whether it’s a tank approach or not, it’s about the only approach the class has left apart from niche builds like Overload gank approaches or running with base sustain only. Stacking damage is not that beneficial when your burst takes so long as is so highly telegraphed.
I didn't even question that. I stated in my first post, that I hope readjusting former nerfs would change that...
I’d hope so too, but these hopes are slim. If you are a Sorc on these forums you’re used to being defensive because even now a lot of people still think the class needs nerfs. I don’t think we’ll ever see a class overhaul that opens up more choices for Sorcs. I certainly would welcome it though.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I agree to some extend. Doesn't make the setup mentioned any less sustain/defense focused, which I think produces less attractive gameplay and would fit into the same category/philosophy of making a tank build. That's literally all I said, admittedly my choice of words was not the most political correct one. But the message stays the same and I don't see anything wrong with it.
Apparently, you are not allowed to say such things, to not make Derra go full nerdrage mode and his fanboys following up with the pitchforks. Sad.
That´s the point though.
You try to discredit me by saying i´m going full nerdrage. Yet you don´t adress the arguments i make based on facts by playing these and other builds. Full ad hominem because someone tells you your argument (that´s based on gutfeeling) is wrong.
Shackle lich is one of the most dmg oriented setups that is sustainable for sorc compared to other classes sustainable dmg oriented setups.
It is easier to sustain nb on warmaiden alchemist shadowrend than it is to sustain sorc on shackle lich against a competent high dmg opponent.Edited by Derra on January 25, 2018 10:39AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Tired of argueing with a bunch of sorcs tryharding class biased forum defense to alter my semantics when, in fact, I just wanted to express support the readjustment of former nerfs.
I don’t think semantics are the issue. Whether it’s a tank approach or not, it’s about the only approach the class has left apart from niche builds like Overload gank approaches or running with base sustain only. Stacking damage is not that beneficial when your burst takes so long as is so highly telegraphed.
I didn't even question that. I stated in my first post, that I hope readjusting former nerfs would change that...
I’d hope so too, but these hopes are slim. If you are a Sorc on these forums you’re used to being defensive because even now a lot of people still think the class needs nerfs. I don’t think we’ll ever see a class overhaul that opens up more choices for Sorcs. I certainly would welcome it though.
Sorc will probably not get buffed as long as shieldstacking is in the game, because it's no fun to fight against shieldspammers. Same reason why medium armor will probably not get buffed unless Cloak is nerfed.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach buildFrags needs stun+the extra damage. Mines needs exponential damage increase per mine. Streak needs a lot of cost reduce, but some way for melee to catch up that isn't gapcloser spam.
streak doesn't get cost reduc until Shade can be places more than 8m from where you stand. It also doesn't get cost reduction until MagPlar can have minor expedition inside their ritual or something like that
Shade is a bug that may or may not get fixed. Templars are not designed to be mobile. Sorcs are, yet they get punished for moving and completely countered by any immobile class with a gapcloser.
In the past I'm pretty sure that was the vision the Devs had for Mag Sorcs. They were a highly mobile class thanks to Streaking everywhere and had weaker shields in general, but didn't get oneshot when their shields were down. Streak now punishes your Magicka for using it (even when it fails to work), and if your shields fall off, you get killed almost immediately by decent players.
Add to that that unlike every other class in the game, we have a tremendous windup for our burst. We need four global cooldowns to prepare, and if only one is wasted, our burst won't kill. Other classes can just wait for their stunning ult and use their on-demand burst skill, like Wrecking Blow or Merciless.
Also, we have zero, ZERO sustained pressure.
With master's staff reach is better than shock in any way possible except for the fact that it can do a tiny bit more damage if built for it and can be reflected whereas shock can not. So yeah, reach is actually very competitive
Edit: *** quoted the wrong guy, meant to quote our "queen" over here
You should be banned for your annoying provocations.
What's your problem with me ?Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I agree to some extend. Doesn't make the setup mentioned any less sustain/defense focused, which I think produces less attractive gameplay and would fit into the same category/philosophy of making a tank build. That's literally all I said, admittedly my choice of words was not the most political correct one. But the message stays the same and I don't see anything wrong with it.
Apparently, you are not allowed to say such things, to not make Derra go full nerdrage mode and his fanboys following up with the pitchforks. Sad.
That´s the point though.
You try to discredit me by saying i´m going full nerdrage. Yet you don´t adress the arguments. Full ad hominem because someone tells you your argument is wrong.
Shackle lich is one of the most dmg oriented setups that is sustainable for sorc compared to other classes sustainable dmg oriented setups.
It is easier to sustain nb on warmaiden alchemist shadowrend than it is to sustain sorc on shackle lich against a competent high dmg opponent.
Dude, you are now cherrypicking some examples that fit your argument, when I am just poniting out that I personally (and lots of others I talk to) would put the build philosophy into a sustain/defense category. Take a deep breath, read your text again, then look into the mirror - if you are smart, you will realize something.
At this point I consider the cockroach debate over. Again, I am in full support of readjusting frag and bolt escape nerfs, hope it will get considered.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 10:42AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
i have to vehemently disagree here.
It´s the same thing as saying every build with sword and board is a cockroach build.
Magsorc is in a position where the class has arguably the worst infight sustain of all magica classes because their sustain mechanic is almost unusable and the magica drain from shields is higher than any other defensive mechanic.
Any magsorc build these days is impossible to stamdrain solo because the class relies on stamina regeneration to fuel their immense magica consumption.
Also there is no pure dmg build that will give a significant advantage over shackle lich (while at the same time being at a significant disadvantege for sustain).
Amber + julianos full dmg enchanted trades 6% tooltip dmg advantage + 10% crit for 50% magica recovery disadvantage and roughly 8% less shields.
The problem is that this small offensive gain does not let you kill anything you can´t kill with shackle lich aswell.
What really offensive setups do you want sorcs to run?Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
That´s wrong though. You can kill things just fine on nb with shackle + lich for example. The difference is that other classes can sustain fine without equipping those while sorc can´t.
Hell NB can sustain with warmaiden + alchemist. If i were to try that on sorc i´d be oom before my first potion cooldown.
Your statements show a disconnection from what playing solo magica sorc these days in open world or high quality duels.
Edit: The problem for magsorc is more specifically: The class can not access a dmg set that synergises with the class (warmaiden/necro for nb, bsw for templar/DK, axiom next patch for all of those) that outperforms 3x dmg enchanted on jewelry.
Equipping a dmg set and enchanting for regen to compensate always puts you in a worse position on magsorc than equipping for sustain and enchanting for dmg - that is not the case for dk, nb or templar.
Or maybe, just maybe your are disconnected from any other setup that is not a magNB or magSorc (who both have very offensive passives & actives) and fail to realistically put those in line with other setups to realize that the approach to the build is very similar to what tanks go for.
I´m playing magsorc, magbladem, stamsorc and stamblade at the moment solo in open world.
Try again.
Ok, why do I see you PvPing 99% on magSorc when logging in? Are you really trying to imply you possess the same firsthand playing experience and ability to assess setups compared to your mag setups? Try again.
well atleast i´m not telling someone somethign about a class i don´t play.
I am not. I am just putting the build approach of a certain setup into the same category as I would others sustain/tank setups, since both favor defense/sustain over offense. Is that really so hard to understand?
Actually DW sorcs follow ur logic. They sacrifice certain aspects of their build for more dmg. And yet they have the same issues with every sorc build if not more.
Also, ur build approach makes no sense to begin with. You are basically judging builds based on what sets they use without even looking at their stats and classify them as "tanks".0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I agree to some extend. Doesn't make the setup mentioned any less sustain/defense focused, which I think produces less attractive gameplay and would fit into the same category/philosophy of making a tank build. That's literally all I said, admittedly my choice of words was not the most political correct one. But the message stays the same and I don't see anything wrong with it.
Apparently, you are not allowed to say such things, to not make Derra go full nerdrage mode and his fanboys following up with the pitchforks. Sad.
That´s the point though.
You try to discredit me by saying i´m going full nerdrage. Yet you don´t adress the arguments. Full ad hominem because someone tells you your argument is wrong.
Shackle lich is one of the most dmg oriented setups that is sustainable for sorc compared to other classes sustainable dmg oriented setups.
It is easier to sustain nb on warmaiden alchemist shadowrend than it is to sustain sorc on shackle lich against a competent high dmg opponent.
Dude, you are now cherrypicking some examples that fit your argument, when I am just poniting out that I personally (and lots of others I talk to) would put the build philosophy into a sustain/defense category. Take a deep breath, read your text again, then look into the mirror - if you are smart, you will realize something.
How many of those others do actually play magica sorc?
I´m sorry but please which of the points i make is objectively wrong?
Why do you perceive me as triggered or making dumb arguments just because i don´t agree with your opinion that´s based on nothing but gutfeeling for the class discussed?
Edit: MagDK with bsw + mara is sustainable according to deci. Stamina is sustainable with BP + truth + 2x monster / 5 viper 5 fire 2 monster.
I´m not cherrypicking examples. I can come up with sustainable dmg oriented setups for any class i have (not warden, not magplar) but magsorc.Edited by Derra on January 25, 2018 10:47AM<Noricum>
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