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MagDK + Power Lash + Update 17 = ??????
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Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedThe focus of the discussion should be how DK´s can be helped in PvE environment. MagDK´s are fine next patch for PvP content.
As I said on my post, if magDk get in the situation of 1vX, they will see some disadvantage. But that's situational.
But seriously, people just test PvE with target dummy, and test PvP with dueling, then "well there's no different". But they fail to see it in a bigger picture, why do you test combat while soloing, then let that decide the outcome in group play? I really don't get it
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FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedThe focus of the discussion should be how DK´s can be helped in PvE environment. MagDK´s are fine next patch for PvP content.
With the state of Off-Balance as is it on PTS, the only place MagDKs (more likely just a tank with Engulfing Flames slotted) will have is off-tanking and using Engulfing Flames every few seconds to increase the damage of other players. lol
MagDK has been completely snubbed by ZOS in PvE.
There's very little we as players can seemingly do at this point because magDK has been on a downward spiral with no brakes, and ZOS just keeps on nerfing it.1 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeAnd I sit here with my medium armor DK build.....waiting for Wrobel to introduce more undodgeable and unblockable skills
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FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedAnd I sit here with my medium armor DK build.....waiting for Wrobel to introduce more undodgeable and unblockable skills
Well as long as you're not a Wampire, you should be fine since stamDK against magDK just needs to defile the magDK and DoT them down until they melt.1 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedAnd I sit here with my medium armor DK build.....waiting for Wrobel to introduce more undodgeable and unblockable skills
WOW! We have Alcast here???? LMAO!
But seriously though, I don't have problem with the skill being dodgeable or not, I don't really mind Soul Harvest become dodgealbe, since magNB is already strong enough, and also they can become a very effective range dueler in PvP. But magDK in PvP only have 1 option is to run Flame Lash and be melee. Sure you can be a range mage, and have fun while doing, but then you realized most of your skills are melee based anyway, so why bother with being range?
What I really dislike about this PTS, is how ZOS handling an under performing class setup in both PvE and PvP, and manage to make them feels even worse to play with (it doesn't necessary has to be worse in numbers, but the feeling of playing magDK is clearly worse ) 2 -
Jawasa✭✭✭underperforming in pvp is only true in late groups because you only want 1 or maybe 2 magdk's with banner in large groups. Powerlash and dodge have nothing to do with that.0 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedunderperforming in pvp is only true in late groups because you only want 1 or maybe 2 magdk's with banner in large groups. Powerlash and dodge have nothing to do with that.
When I said under performing, I meant to talk about PvE more than PvP. PvP is more situational, yet the time when you actually feel like you're at disadvantages with magDK is a lot more often than stamDK for example. If you're in a situation such as dueling, then magDK is a power house.Edited by Pr0Skygon on January 25, 2018 9:05AM0 -
Jawasa✭✭✭Yeah pve seems like a bad change but thats on the unbalance change not powerlash. Stamdk seem a lot worse then magdk atm in pvp. The problem dk have in openworld is that they get zerged down like several other builds not that a medium armour players dodge roll powerlash. The amount of skills that cant be dodged is too damn high and this is a change in the right direction.1
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Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedYeah pve seems like a bad change but thats on the unbalance change not powerlash. Stamdk seem a lot worse then magdk atm in pvp. The problem dk have in openworld is that they get zerged down like several other builds not that a medium armour players dodge roll powerlash. The amount of skills that cant be dodged is too damn high and this is a change in the right direction.
Yeah I must admit, though my main is stamDK, and I'm still doing fine in PvP, I can confidently say that the PvP scene is a lot more complicate than "oh I'm fine in PvP, so thing is fine".0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »
lol...I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.
On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.
My friend you're comparing the number at the wrong situation.
Though I think my saying "vigor can easily outperform Power Lash" was quite arrogant, that Power Lash tooltip you got there is from a dps PvE setup, but you're comparing it to a PvP stamDK setup, it's not a fair fight. You have to take to consideration that we don't (and most of the time, shouldn't) use light armor in PvP as magDK, we use heavy armor, we use S&B, and we surely have to slot 1 least 1 regen set, we cannot run 2 damage sets, unlike in PvE. Also as I said, Power Lash is a heal that require the right situation to proc, and for most of the time, you don't use Power Lash proc to heal, you use Dragon Blood to do it, or you reapply claw to gain the healing effect.
I don't know if I'd call BSW+Eyes of Mara a PvE setup, you generally want to maximize your DPS in PvE.
Eyes of Mara (5p on resto off bar only):
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduce the Magicka cost of Restoration Staff abilities by 12%.
...doesn't exactly do that. It is the best sustain set when playing a Healing Ward based build in PvP though.
I also disagree that "all magicka DKs should use heavy and S&B". You run heavy and S&B as mDK if you want to play a tank, you run light armor & destro staff if you want to play a "fire mage".
People even run 2H or DW on main bar as magicka DK these days. I think magicka DK is the class with the most build diversity currently, and I think that's pretty cool.But let's take it away from PvP a bit. If you test magDK on PTS right now, you might see little to no different to live, heck I even get better DPS than I can on live, which is 38K, compare to 37K on live. Not a lot of different, but different. But that is on a target skeleton, not a boss. On PTS right now however, bosses can usually be set off balance for 4 seconds, once every 20 seconds, which means magDK will have to rely on that 4 seconds windows to proc Power Lash. If you somehow miss that 4 seconds windows, you're punished heavily for missing your hard hitting, low resource skill. If this happen to a magSorc or magNB, that wouldn't such a big deal, but this again, is magDK. MagDK is already in the slum. We're melee mag setup, having terrible sustain (no, battle roar alone isn't enough), we don't have an execution, so we do not have that damage spike sky rocking at the end, we do not have any worthy synergy for group play, 10% bonus flame damage is too situational, 5% more weapon damage is barely noticeable and can be received from stamDK setup, and overall damage is not even close to magNB and magSorc. So why do we need to have another type of punishment?
On PvE I agree, mDK could maybe use some help.
Maybe they should look at the Molten Whip morph which no one uses & make it restore magicka or something?
I'm sure there are ways of fixing mDKs in PvE without negatively impacting PvP.
Maybe something like:
Molten Whip
Deal X Fire Damage
Hitting an off balance target restores X magicka and causes them to burn for X damage over Y seconds*.
*To make up for the damage difference between Power Lash & Molten Whip. Could be a really long DoT that lasts all the way until the next time boss is Off Balanced, that way it wouldn't be too strong in PvP either but would have a desireable effect in PvE.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2018 11:18AM1 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.
My friend you're comparing the number at the wrong situation.
Though I think my saying "vigor can easily outperform Power Lash" was quite arrogant, that Power Lash tooltip you got there is from a dps PvE setup, but you're comparing it to a PvP stamDK setup, it's not a fair fight. You have to take to consideration that we don't (and most of the time, shouldn't) use light armor in PvP as magDK, we use heavy armor, we use S&B, and we surely have to slot 1 least 1 regen set, we cannot run 2 damage sets, unlike in PvE. Also as I said, Power Lash is a heal that require the right situation to proc, and for most of the time, you don't use Power Lash proc to heal, you use Dragon Blood to do it, or you reapply claw to gain the healing effect.
I don't know if I'd call BSW+Eyes of Mara a PvE setup, you generally want to maximize your DPS in PvE.
Eyes of Mara (5p on resto off bar only):
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduce the Magicka cost of Restoration Staff abilities by 12%.
...doesn't exactly do that. It is the best sustain set when playing a Healing Ward based build in PvP though.
I also disagree that "all magicka DKs should use heavy and S&B". You run heavy and S&B as mDK if you want to play a tank, you run light armor & destro staff if you want to play a "fire mage".
People even run 2H or DW on main bar as magicka DK these days. I think magicka DK is the class with the most build diversity currently, and I think that's pretty cool.But let's take it away from PvP a bit. If you test magDK on PTS right now, you might see little to no different to live, heck I even get better DPS than I can on live, which is 38K, compare to 37K on live. Not a lot of different, but different. But that is on a target skeleton, not a boss. On PTS right now however, bosses can usually be set off balance for 4 seconds, once every 20 seconds, which means magDK will have to rely on that 4 seconds windows to proc Power Lash. If you somehow miss that 4 seconds windows, you're punished heavily for missing your hard hitting, low resource skill. If this happen to a magSorc or magNB, that wouldn't such a big deal, but this again, is magDK. MagDK is already in the slum. We're melee mag setup, having terrible sustain (no, battle roar alone isn't enough), we don't have an execution, so we do not have that damage spike sky rocking at the end, we do not have any worthy synergy for group play, 10% bonus flame damage is too situational, 5% more weapon damage is barely noticeable and can be received from stamDK setup, and overall damage is not even close to magNB and magSorc. So why do we need to have another type of punishment?
On PvE I agree, mDK could maybe use some help.
Maybe they should look at the Molten Whip morph which no one uses & make it restore magicka or something?
I'm sure there are ways of fixing mDKs in PvE without negatively impacting PvP.
Maybe something like:
Molten Whip
Deal X Fire Damage
Hitting an off balance target restores X magicka and causes them to burn for X damage over Y seconds*.
*To make up for the damage difference between Power Lash & Molten Whip. Could be a really long DoT that lasts all the way until the next time boss is Off Balanced, that way it wouldn't be too strong in PvP either but would have a desireable effect in PvE.
Well I'm exactly telling you "you have to be heavy armor in PvP, or you're screwed". No no no, I myself don't use light armor, but I've seen people used it, and use it with grace. It's just that when I ask them, they all seem to agree to a certain extend that it's mostly for fun factor, and change of pace. But if you want to be "the absolute best in most situation", then heavy armor should be the way to go.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.
My friend you're comparing the number at the wrong situation.
Though I think my saying "vigor can easily outperform Power Lash" was quite arrogant, that Power Lash tooltip you got there is from a dps PvE setup, but you're comparing it to a PvP stamDK setup, it's not a fair fight. You have to take to consideration that we don't (and most of the time, shouldn't) use light armor in PvP as magDK, we use heavy armor, we use S&B, and we surely have to slot 1 least 1 regen set, we cannot run 2 damage sets, unlike in PvE. Also as I said, Power Lash is a heal that require the right situation to proc, and for most of the time, you don't use Power Lash proc to heal, you use Dragon Blood to do it, or you reapply claw to gain the healing effect.
I don't know if I'd call BSW+Eyes of Mara a PvE setup, you generally want to maximize your DPS in PvE.
Eyes of Mara (5p on resto off bar only):
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduce the Magicka cost of Restoration Staff abilities by 12%.
...doesn't exactly do that. It is the best sustain set when playing a Healing Ward based build in PvP though.
I also disagree that "all magicka DKs should use heavy and S&B". You run heavy and S&B as mDK if you want to play a tank, you run light armor & destro staff if you want to play a "fire mage".
People even run 2H or DW on main bar as magicka DK these days. I think magicka DK is the class with the most build diversity currently, and I think that's pretty cool.But let's take it away from PvP a bit. If you test magDK on PTS right now, you might see little to no different to live, heck I even get better DPS than I can on live, which is 38K, compare to 37K on live. Not a lot of different, but different. But that is on a target skeleton, not a boss. On PTS right now however, bosses can usually be set off balance for 4 seconds, once every 20 seconds, which means magDK will have to rely on that 4 seconds windows to proc Power Lash. If you somehow miss that 4 seconds windows, you're punished heavily for missing your hard hitting, low resource skill. If this happen to a magSorc or magNB, that wouldn't such a big deal, but this again, is magDK. MagDK is already in the slum. We're melee mag setup, having terrible sustain (no, battle roar alone isn't enough), we don't have an execution, so we do not have that damage spike sky rocking at the end, we do not have any worthy synergy for group play, 10% bonus flame damage is too situational, 5% more weapon damage is barely noticeable and can be received from stamDK setup, and overall damage is not even close to magNB and magSorc. So why do we need to have another type of punishment?
On PvE I agree, mDK could maybe use some help.
Maybe they should look at the Molten Whip morph which no one uses & make it restore magicka or something?
I'm sure there are ways of fixing mDKs in PvE without negatively impacting PvP.
Maybe something like:
Molten Whip
Deal X Fire Damage
Hitting an off balance target restores X magicka and causes them to burn for X damage over Y seconds*.
*To make up for the damage difference between Power Lash & Molten Whip. Could be a really long DoT that lasts all the way until the next time boss is Off Balanced, that way it wouldn't be too strong in PvP either but would have a desireable effect in PvE.
Well I'm exactly telling you "you have to be heavy armor in PvP, or you're screwed". No no no, I myself don't use light armor, but I've seen people used it, and use it with grace. It's just that when I ask them, they all seem to agree to a certain extend that it's mostly for fun factor, and change of pace. But if you want to be "the absolute best in most situation", then heavy armor should be the way to go.
Well, that's interesting because while Heavy Armor S&B permablockers certainly are popular in Cyrodiil, they aren't what's considered "meta" in 1vX and duels.
Most of the big streamers/youtubers also seem to prefer light armor (and usually S&B) these days:
Blobs build
Kodi build
M A G M A's 2H build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371158/mighty-chudans-revenge-high-sustain-damage-tanky-magicka-dk-build
My build
etc etc...
Meta has shifted dramatically from heavy to light over the past year or so for magicka builds. I do remember those days when pretty much all DKs (and magplars) wore heavy armor, but that's not really the case anymore.
I think it's because more damage is required to get through peoples' healing/shields these days, and heavy doesn't really provide that (especially after Wrath passive got senselessly removed).
Stamina builds are another story, since they still get full benefit of S&B weapon dmg passive, light attack dmg, extra bash dmg and have access to strong heavy sets like Legion, Fury etc.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2018 12:50PM3 -
Tarrocan✭✭✭✭What? Heavy Armor on a mdk is RLY sht and useless . I Hope i could help u about this Problem.AD MagDK 'General Degree <-Main
AD MagDK 'Kiana
AD MagDK Kiana The Fire Mage
AD MagDK General Degree
AD MagDK 'Tarrocan
AD StamDK Tarrocan
AD MagNB GrimKiller
AD MagCro Som Ting Wong
AD StamCro 'Som Ting Wong
AD MagPlar Della Grant
AD StamPlar R I M M A
AD MagSorc Nautilus
AD StamSorc R O M M I
AD StamNB Iba
AD MagDen Desi Roots
AD StamDen Diablo0 -
Haquor✭✭✭✭✭
I don't know if 3s cooldown on Power Lash is that big of a deal for PvE either, you're not only using whip as a magicka DK, you weave your DoTs, WoEs etc inbetween so the 3s cooldown should have a very limited effect.
If you actually had a decent rotation on a magedk you would know that at times you are light weaving up to 5 whips in a row. Having 4 to 5 of them being free vs 1 to 2 each rotation. Is not a 'very limited effect' when your class sustain sucks.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to that
I don't know if 3s cooldown on Power Lash is that big of a deal for PvE either, you're not only using whip as a magicka DK, you weave your DoTs, WoEs etc inbetween so the 3s cooldown should have a very limited effect.
If you actually had a decent rotation on a magedk you would know that at times you are light weaving up to 5 whips in a row. Having 4 to 5 of them being free vs 1 to 2 each rotation. Is not a 'very limited effect' when your class sustain sucks.
Ah, ok - good to know. I don't PvE much with my mDK these days (used to, but that was years ago).
Just a random thought: what if after these Off Balance changes you swap rotation for a while when target is Off Balanced?
I.e.
instead of LA+Whip+LA+Whip+LA+Whip+LA+Whip+LA+Whip
you go:
LA+Power Lash+Heavy Attack+Flame Lash(or reapply Embers/whatever)+Heavy Attack+Power Lash
You already deal +70% damage on Off Balanced targets, and perhaps with the Off Balance no longer being consumed immediately by heavy attacks, Molten Armaments could be worth slotting?
I'm also curious how the double resource return from heavy attacks on Off Balanced targets will affect sustain, especially on mDK.
Definitely a lot of things to test for mDK PvErs.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2018 1:40PM0 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedSince magDK could already not sustain a PvE rotation before, they definitely won't be able to now.
Costs need to go down and Battle Roar needs to be buffed back to pre-morrowind status for magDK to be viable in PvE ever again.
MagDK was falling off the cliff in PvE DPS already, but the boss off-balance cooldown will completely erase it from any decent raid groups.0 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedFlamingBeard wrote: »Since magDK could already not sustain a PvE rotation before, they definitely won't be able to now.
Costs need to go down and Battle Roar needs to be buffed back to pre-morrowind status for magDK to be viable in PvE ever again.
MagDK was falling off the cliff in PvE DPS already, but the boss off-balance cooldown will completely erase it from any decent raid groups.
If battle roar is buffed back, then stamDK and tankDK will be out of control.
I think the reasonable solution for mDK is to rework 1 useless morph (which is easy to find for mDK) and make it become a recovery skill, such as Templar Rune Focus or Warden netch. For example: rework Fragmented Shield and make it become a reverse version of Igneous Shield, so that it cost stamina, scale off with magicka and spell damage, and restore a small amount and magicka upon activation. Just a little suggestion
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Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.
My friend you're comparing the number at the wrong situation.
Though I think my saying "vigor can easily outperform Power Lash" was quite arrogant, that Power Lash tooltip you got there is from a dps PvE setup, but you're comparing it to a PvP stamDK setup, it's not a fair fight. You have to take to consideration that we don't (and most of the time, shouldn't) use light armor in PvP as magDK, we use heavy armor, we use S&B, and we surely have to slot 1 least 1 regen set, we cannot run 2 damage sets, unlike in PvE. Also as I said, Power Lash is a heal that require the right situation to proc, and for most of the time, you don't use Power Lash proc to heal, you use Dragon Blood to do it, or you reapply claw to gain the healing effect.
I don't know if I'd call BSW+Eyes of Mara a PvE setup, you generally want to maximize your DPS in PvE.
Eyes of Mara (5p on resto off bar only):
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduce the Magicka cost of Restoration Staff abilities by 12%.
...doesn't exactly do that. It is the best sustain set when playing a Healing Ward based build in PvP though.
I also disagree that "all magicka DKs should use heavy and S&B". You run heavy and S&B as mDK if you want to play a tank, you run light armor & destro staff if you want to play a "fire mage".
People even run 2H or DW on main bar as magicka DK these days. I think magicka DK is the class with the most build diversity currently, and I think that's pretty cool.But let's take it away from PvP a bit. If you test magDK on PTS right now, you might see little to no different to live, heck I even get better DPS than I can on live, which is 38K, compare to 37K on live. Not a lot of different, but different. But that is on a target skeleton, not a boss. On PTS right now however, bosses can usually be set off balance for 4 seconds, once every 20 seconds, which means magDK will have to rely on that 4 seconds windows to proc Power Lash. If you somehow miss that 4 seconds windows, you're punished heavily for missing your hard hitting, low resource skill. If this happen to a magSorc or magNB, that wouldn't such a big deal, but this again, is magDK. MagDK is already in the slum. We're melee mag setup, having terrible sustain (no, battle roar alone isn't enough), we don't have an execution, so we do not have that damage spike sky rocking at the end, we do not have any worthy synergy for group play, 10% bonus flame damage is too situational, 5% more weapon damage is barely noticeable and can be received from stamDK setup, and overall damage is not even close to magNB and magSorc. So why do we need to have another type of punishment?
On PvE I agree, mDK could maybe use some help.
Maybe they should look at the Molten Whip morph which no one uses & make it restore magicka or something?
I'm sure there are ways of fixing mDKs in PvE without negatively impacting PvP.
Maybe something like:
Molten Whip
Deal X Fire Damage
Hitting an off balance target restores X magicka and causes them to burn for X damage over Y seconds*.
*To make up for the damage difference between Power Lash & Molten Whip. Could be a really long DoT that lasts all the way until the next time boss is Off Balanced, that way it wouldn't be too strong in PvP either but would have a desireable effect in PvE.
Well I'm exactly telling you "you have to be heavy armor in PvP, or you're screwed". No no no, I myself don't use light armor, but I've seen people used it, and use it with grace. It's just that when I ask them, they all seem to agree to a certain extend that it's mostly for fun factor, and change of pace. But if you want to be "the absolute best in most situation", then heavy armor should be the way to go.
Well, that's interesting because while Heavy Armor S&B permablockers certainly are popular in Cyrodiil, they aren't what's considered "meta" in 1vX and duels.
Most of the big streamers/youtubers also seem to prefer light armor (and usually S&B) these days:
Blobs build
Kodi build
M A G M A's 2H build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371158/mighty-chudans-revenge-high-sustain-damage-tanky-magicka-dk-build
My build
etc etc...
Meta has shifted dramatically from heavy to light over the past year or so for magicka builds. I do remember those days when pretty much all DKs (and magplars) wore heavy armor, but that's not really the case anymore.
I think it's because more damage is required to get through peoples' healing/shields these days, and heavy doesn't really provide that (especially after Wrath passive got senselessly removed).
Stamina builds are another story, since they still get full benefit of S&B weapon dmg passive, light attack dmg, extra bash dmg and have access to strong heavy sets like Legion, Fury etc.
Hum that's very interesting actually, I'll check it out Thanks. 0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.
My friend you're comparing the number at the wrong situation.
Though I think my saying "vigor can easily outperform Power Lash" was quite arrogant, that Power Lash tooltip you got there is from a dps PvE setup, but you're comparing it to a PvP stamDK setup, it's not a fair fight. You have to take to consideration that we don't (and most of the time, shouldn't) use light armor in PvP as magDK, we use heavy armor, we use S&B, and we surely have to slot 1 least 1 regen set, we cannot run 2 damage sets, unlike in PvE. Also as I said, Power Lash is a heal that require the right situation to proc, and for most of the time, you don't use Power Lash proc to heal, you use Dragon Blood to do it, or you reapply claw to gain the healing effect.
I don't know if I'd call BSW+Eyes of Mara a PvE setup, you generally want to maximize your DPS in PvE.
Eyes of Mara (5p on resto off bar only):
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Reduce the Magicka cost of Restoration Staff abilities by 12%.
...doesn't exactly do that. It is the best sustain set when playing a Healing Ward based build in PvP though.
I also disagree that "all magicka DKs should use heavy and S&B". You run heavy and S&B as mDK if you want to play a tank, you run light armor & destro staff if you want to play a "fire mage".
People even run 2H or DW on main bar as magicka DK these days. I think magicka DK is the class with the most build diversity currently, and I think that's pretty cool.But let's take it away from PvP a bit. If you test magDK on PTS right now, you might see little to no different to live, heck I even get better DPS than I can on live, which is 38K, compare to 37K on live. Not a lot of different, but different. But that is on a target skeleton, not a boss. On PTS right now however, bosses can usually be set off balance for 4 seconds, once every 20 seconds, which means magDK will have to rely on that 4 seconds windows to proc Power Lash. If you somehow miss that 4 seconds windows, you're punished heavily for missing your hard hitting, low resource skill. If this happen to a magSorc or magNB, that wouldn't such a big deal, but this again, is magDK. MagDK is already in the slum. We're melee mag setup, having terrible sustain (no, battle roar alone isn't enough), we don't have an execution, so we do not have that damage spike sky rocking at the end, we do not have any worthy synergy for group play, 10% bonus flame damage is too situational, 5% more weapon damage is barely noticeable and can be received from stamDK setup, and overall damage is not even close to magNB and magSorc. So why do we need to have another type of punishment?
On PvE I agree, mDK could maybe use some help.
Maybe they should look at the Molten Whip morph which no one uses & make it restore magicka or something?
I'm sure there are ways of fixing mDKs in PvE without negatively impacting PvP.
Maybe something like:
Molten Whip
Deal X Fire Damage
Hitting an off balance target restores X magicka and causes them to burn for X damage over Y seconds*.
*To make up for the damage difference between Power Lash & Molten Whip. Could be a really long DoT that lasts all the way until the next time boss is Off Balanced, that way it wouldn't be too strong in PvP either but would have a desireable effect in PvE.
Well I'm exactly telling you "you have to be heavy armor in PvP, or you're screwed". No no no, I myself don't use light armor, but I've seen people used it, and use it with grace. It's just that when I ask them, they all seem to agree to a certain extend that it's mostly for fun factor, and change of pace. But if you want to be "the absolute best in most situation", then heavy armor should be the way to go.
Well, that's interesting because while Heavy Armor S&B permablockers certainly are popular in Cyrodiil, they aren't what's considered "meta" in 1vX and duels.
Most of the big streamers/youtubers also seem to prefer light armor (and usually S&B) these days:
Blobs build
Kodi build
M A G M A's 2H build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371158/mighty-chudans-revenge-high-sustain-damage-tanky-magicka-dk-build
My build
etc etc...
Meta has shifted dramatically from heavy to light over the past year or so for magicka builds. I do remember those days when pretty much all DKs (and magplars) wore heavy armor, but that's not really the case anymore.
I think it's because more damage is required to get through peoples' healing/shields these days, and heavy doesn't really provide that (especially after Wrath passive got senselessly removed).
Stamina builds are another story, since they still get full benefit of S&B weapon dmg passive, light attack dmg, extra bash dmg and have access to strong heavy sets like Legion, Fury etc.
The reason why dks wear light more commonly is because of the unneeded blanket nerfs to it that fixed nothing it was intended to.
200 weapon damage and the extra constitution meant more to a MagDK or Templar with around 2kish spell damage, with weaker weaves and so so sustain (ha for usual heavy setup restoring Stam) than it did to a stam build with 4k+ weapon damage and better sustain.
Generally as you said yourself. It's not so much that DK is super strong in light, it's that it's more mediocre in heavy.Edited by ak_pvp on January 25, 2018 4:27PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
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