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MagDK + Power Lash + Update 17 = ??????
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Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedjakeedmundson wrote: »I switched my DK from mag to stam yesterday. No race change, just left it as dunmer in case mag gets good again.
I can still solo world bosses and hit 35k+ on the dummy with less effort/sustain problems than the mag dk... even without an optimal race for stamina. I really wish the mDK was great still... because it really is fun to play.
But if i can do more damage and stay alive well enough as stamina, then whats the point of running magicka DK?
It would be pretty simple to make mDK strong... just adjust the magicka morphs of the DoTs. Increase the damage tics and reduce the cost a little. There, you're on par with other melee dps now...
Problem with magDK right now, is that theirKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.Edited by DDuke on January 24, 2018 3:30PM1 -
krathos✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedRagnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »
So explain to me why it doesn't work like that? Because thats exactly how I counter it on every class I play for years now. It's super predictable and only happens once at a time in your typical build (and we shouldnt be balancing based on broken dueling builds). You know when it procs. You can literally tap block to counter it on any class.
if you're actually an experienced PvP player you should friggen now that such thing as ''simply tapping block'' , does not exist.
You either blockcast the crap out of people, or you don't touch block at all. and a medium armor build can't just stand there and hold block.
Actually its pretty clear that you never touched a medium armor build in your playtime, so I won't waste time here any longer.
ah yes, personal attacks in response to wanting an explanation. now i see your side!Flapjack Palmdale
<ANIMOSITY>
Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LonePirate wrote: »I think the Mag DK playstyle was created by thoughtful designers and developers with a clear understanding of and vision for the class. Unfortunately, I don’t think those people work for ZOS any more.
^^^^
Same goes for Sorc.... who used to be highly mobile with light shields that didn’t need recasting every 4-5sec to avoid death by CC. Much more interesting playstyle that didn’t force every Sorc into the same build and to shieldstack while specced into tons of Max Mag just to survive.
Also Templar, who had skills that worked, and an AoE CC alongside a class-based shield that used to be good. Also Blinding Flashes? Very cool class at one point. Now they are buggy and full of issues.
Nightblade is more or less the same as in the past, but I don’t think the vision for them was Ambush -> Incap -> Procs/enchants -> Execute, all of which will land almost every time if you are “skilled” at it.
Warden is the only class solely created by the current team, and it is the worst balanced. In PvP it has a host of hard counters especially to Medium Armor builds and is simply too strong in the right hands (I’ve played it very well, so believe me lol), yet in PvE it is horrendous. They show a Warden skill in the Morrowind trailer than isn’t a part of the actual class -_-
Btw, DK also lost the original Inferno skill which would’ve been a tremendous help to Mag DK in particular.Edited by Vaoh on January 24, 2018 4:21PM5 -
krathos✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedLonePirate wrote: »I think the Mag DK playstyle was created by thoughtful designers and developers with a clear understanding of and vision for the class. Unfortunately, I don’t think those people work for ZOS any more.
^^^^
Same goes for Sorc.... who used to be highly mobile with light shields that didn’t need recasting every 4-5sec to avoid death by CC. Much more interesting playstyle that didn’t force every Sorc into the same build and to shieldstack while specced into tons of Max Mag just to survive.
Also Templar, who had skills that worked, and an AoE CC alongside a class-based shield that used to be good. Also Blinding Flashes? Very cool class at one point. Now they are buggy and full of issues.
Nightblade is more or less the same as in the past, but I don’t think the vision for them was Ambush -> Incap -> Procs/enchants -> Execute, all of which will land almost every time if you are “skilled” at it.
Warden is the only class solely created by the current team, and it is the worst balanced. In PvP it has a host of hard counters especially to Medium Armor builds and is simply too strong in the right hands (I’ve played it very well, so believe me lol), yet in PvE it is horrendous. They show a Warden skill in the Morrowind trailer than isn’t a part of the actual class -_-
Btw, DK also lost the original Inferno skill which would’ve been a tremendous help to Mag DK in particular.
Over time they have neutered the identity of each of the original classes for sure. No matter what is strong or not they are but a shell of their former selves with regards to individuality. They don't hide this though. They've spoken multiple times on how they want to make all classes similar and to fill all roles equally.Flapjack Palmdale
<ANIMOSITY>
Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight1 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play. The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.3 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play. The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
Agreed.
One of the two has to be reverted: either Power Lash being dodgeable, or the cooldown being shortened/removed entirely if it stays dodgeable.1 -
reiverx✭✭✭✭✭LonePirate wrote: »I think the Mag DK playstyle was created by thoughtful designers and developers with a clear understanding of and vision for the class. Unfortunately, I don’t think those people work for ZOS any more.
^^^^
Same goes for Sorc.... who used to be highly mobile with light shields that didn’t need recasting every 4-5sec to avoid death by CC. Much more interesting playstyle that didn’t force every Sorc into the same build and to shieldstack while specced into tons of Max Mag just to survive.
Also Templar, who had skills that worked, and an AoE CC alongside a class-based shield that used to be good. Also Blinding Flashes? Very cool class at one point. Now they are buggy and full of issues.
Nightblade is more or less the same as in the past, but I don’t think the vision for them was Ambush -> Incap -> Procs/enchants -> Execute, all of which will land almost every time if you are “skilled” at it.
Warden is the only class solely created by the current team, and it is the worst balanced. In PvP it has a host of hard counters especially to Medium Armor builds and is simply too strong in the right hands (I’ve played it very well, so believe me lol), yet in PvE it is horrendous. They show a Warden skill in the Morrowind trailer than isn’t a part of the actual class -_-
Btw, DK also lost the original Inferno skill which would’ve been a tremendous help to Mag DK in particular.
Over time they have neutered the identity of each of the original classes for sure. No matter what is strong or not they are but a shell of their former selves with regards to individuality. They don't hide this though. They've spoken multiple times on how they want to make all classes similar and to fill all roles equally.
I think the company is utterly devoid of creativity. All they do is throw more CP at us every update, then they water down skills and add a few proc sets. Total cringe inducing stuff.
3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would actually find it awesome if the DK were restored to their former glory and all other classes along with them. Even on the receiving end it was just a glorious sight to see banners left and right. Now it’s the Standard of Forgetfulness. Combat is increasingly more boring for everyone.
If I find some time I might write a posting about class changes that I would suggest.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play. The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
Agreed.
One of the two has to be reverted: either Power Lash being dodgeable, or the cooldown being shortened/removed entirely if it stays dodgeable.
So either give two undodgeable PL or being able to no-cost spam PL for a few seconds? You can't be serious.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play. The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
Agreed.
One of the two has to be reverted: either Power Lash being dodgeable, or the cooldown being shortened/removed entirely if it stays dodgeable.
So either give two undodgeable PL or being able to no-cost spam PL for a few seconds? You can't be serious.
He probably means because you can dodge it. Might not be an issue vs stamina builds. A Magicka character is OOS after the 3rd Talons and then it’s writhing in agony under free lashes.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).Edited by DDuke on January 24, 2018 5:43PM2 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.
On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?1 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.1 -
KhajiitHasSkooma✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomed
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.Edited by DDuke on January 24, 2018 9:17PM0 -
FlamingBeard✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedWhat @DDuke fails to mention or realize here is that the 4 second heal of Power Lash is a BUG, and so he cannot use it as an argument that Power Lash was somehow buffed.1
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatEven if the 4s duration was a bug, Power Lash is still getting buffed (perhaps not as much as some would like), not nerfed next patch.
I can just point out that Power Lash heal on live has a maximum 40% uptime (5s Off Balance cooldown) unless you're running a Lightning Staff WoE build.
It also consumes Off Balance there, meaning no +10% dmg buff from Exploiter CP for the follow-up abilities
On PTS, the heal uptime is a maximum 66,666% (3s cooldown), the Off Balance is no longer consumed by the Power Lash and is refreshed by every CC or root.
If you can't see how this is a massive buff compared to what mDK has on Live, I don't know what to tell you. [snip]
General feedback:
[snip] I've also tested Power Lash on PTS and found it to be an improvement against most opponents mDK was actually having a hard time against.
Keep it up with the good changes ZOS - make Embers dodgeable next and dodge roll builds might stand a chance against mDK (they still certainly do not on PTS).
P.S. Please stop tagging me, I've no desire to converse with people who just don't/can't understand or listen.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on January 25, 2018 1:18AM0 -
KhajiitHasSkooma✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedIf I was interested in "promoting my trash build & youtube", I'd be against these changes because then my build would actually be stronger in PvP (and thus gather more attention).
What I'm interested in is having a balanced game where I don't get spoonfed free kills on medium armor builds just because a bunch of baddies can't play their class and want more buffs (when they're already ruining the game for a lot of people with the undodgeable bs).
Thing is, it doesn't matter whose build works or doesn't. You didn't like how your stamNB got hard countered by mDKs. You made a mDK montage and claimed to be mDK player. And now you're all over the forums because you see an opportunity to get mDKs overnerfed. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on January 25, 2018 1:21AM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Thing is, it doesn't matter whose build works or doesn't. You didn't like how your stamNB got hard countered by mDKs. You made a mDK montage and claimed to be mDK player. And now you're spewing all over the forums because you see an opportunity to get mDKs overnerfed.- I play all classes.
I make anti-meta builds of classes/armor types considered weak, like stamblade back in 2014 when this game was called "Elder Staves Online" (a quip about how bad stam builds were).
Heavy armor magplar back in 2016 when everyone were saying heavy armor & magplar were garbage: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk
(the build quickly became the meta magplar build until the proc set era)
I've recently made a non-meta bow/bow stamblade a non-meta mDK and next patch I'd like to play not only my mDK, but also stam bow sorc and melee magicka NB, both builds not present in current meta. - mDK isn't getting overnerfed or nerfed at all next update, in fact it is getting buffed and I've already confirmed this on PTS by dueling dozens of people, including medium armor builds that actually use dodge roll.
[edit for quote]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on January 25, 2018 1:26AM1 - I play all classes.
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ZOS_CoriJ✭✭✭✭✭Quick reminder folks to keep the discussion on-topic to the subject of the thread. The forum rules are still in effect when posting in PTS. If this continues to be personal sniping we will close the thread.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
The same reason why he we have no excute or sustain passives.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're totally wrong, and thank god to thatzParallaxz wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
The same reason why he we have no excute or sustain passives.
Earthen Heart=990 stamina every time you Fossilize=990/7(CC Immunity duration)=282 passive stam regen just from doing your normal PvP rotation
For a magicka build with just 647 stam regen (base regen+Mooncalf+Vampire passive), that's like having a "+43% stam regen" passive, and that's not even counting Molten Armaments (should you use it instead of Degeneration for Major Sorcery).
Earthen Heart is trickier to calculate, but assuming you get 3 ulti/s and use Leap every time it's up, then it's worth "280 mag, stam & health regen".
125/3=41s for ulti
125*46(Earthen Heart Resource Return/Ultimate)=5750
5750/41=140 resources/second=280 regen
Of course people don't use ulti as soon as it's up and you might not always be able to CC on cooldown, but this should give some idea of how valuable the passive are sustain wise.
I also understand the "no execute" complaint from S&B perspective - but other mDK builds really don't have need for one (except maybe vs Troll King+Heavy Armor meta dueling builds).
So if there is any solution to S&B mDKs' lack of dmg, it should be a solution independent of other mDK builds, which seriously overperform vs dodge roll builds (or should atleast not affect those match ups for high dmg builds).
P.S. Leap is a significantly stronger "execute substitute" than Power Lash and can be used to finish off dodge rollers even after Power Lash changes.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2018 1:56AM2 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
The same reason why he we have no excute or sustain passives.
Earthen Heart=990 stamina every time you Fossilize=990/7(CC Immunity duration)=282 passive stam regen just from doing your normal PvP rotation
For a magicka build with just 647 stam regen (base regen+Mooncalf+Vampire passive), that's like having a "+43% stam regen" passive, and that's not even counting Molten Armaments (should you use it instead of Degeneration for Major Sorcery).
Earthen Heart is trickier to calculate, but assuming you get 3 ulti/s and use Leap every time it's up, then it's worth "280 mag, stam & health regen".
125/3=41s for ulti
125*46(Earthen Heart Resource Return/Ultimate)=5750
5750/41=140 resources/second=280 regen
Of course people don't use ulti as soon as it's up and you might not always be able to CC on cooldown, but this should give some idea of how valuable the passive are sustain wise.
I also understand the "no execute" complaint from S&B perspective - but other mDK builds really don't have need for one (except maybe vs Troll King+Heavy Armor meta dueling builds).
So if there is any solution to S&B mDKs' lack of dmg, it should be a solution independent of other mDK builds, which seriously overperform vs dodge roll builds (or should atleast not affect those match ups for high dmg builds).
P.S. Leap is a significantly stronger "execute substitute" than Power Lash and can be used to finish off dodge rollers even after Power Lash changes.
My boi I refer to power lash being free cost undodgeable and then you talk about stam sustain on a magdk. Smh1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
The same reason why he we have no excute or sustain passives.
Earthen Heart=990 stamina every time you Fossilize=990/7(CC Immunity duration)=282 passive stam regen just from doing your normal PvP rotation
For a magicka build with just 647 stam regen (base regen+Mooncalf+Vampire passive), that's like having a "+43% stam regen" passive, and that's not even counting Molten Armaments (should you use it instead of Degeneration for Major Sorcery).
Earthen Heart is trickier to calculate, but assuming you get 3 ulti/s and use Leap every time it's up, then it's worth "280 mag, stam & health regen".
125/3=41s for ulti
125*46(Earthen Heart Resource Return/Ultimate)=5750
5750/41=140 resources/second=280 regen
Of course people don't use ulti as soon as it's up and you might not always be able to CC on cooldown, but this should give some idea of how valuable the passive are sustain wise.
I also understand the "no execute" complaint from S&B perspective - but other mDK builds really don't have need for one (except maybe vs Troll King+Heavy Armor meta dueling builds).
So if there is any solution to S&B mDKs' lack of dmg, it should be a solution independent of other mDK builds, which seriously overperform vs dodge roll builds (or should atleast not affect those match ups for high dmg builds).
P.S. Leap is a significantly stronger "execute substitute" than Power Lash and can be used to finish off dodge rollers even after Power Lash changes.
Execute isn't needed if you play bursty, when I get executed by a stam build, its usually 4/6k rev slices, my whip deals similar. But if you play heavy/dotty which is how ZOS want DK to be played, then it is something needed. Dots aren't great finishers. Calling leap and execute sub is sort of a stretch. Yes it deals high damage. But no, an ult is no where near the same as a spammable execute.
Stam sustain aside, magDK has the worst sustain of their key resource (mag) of any class. Worst mobility (Even with chains) and pretty poor class synergy for survivabilty.
Building tanky requires damage loss, something that sorcs don't have in shields, NBs don't have in cloak. Templars don't have in purge, though have to tank a bit. However they aren't as pigeonholed to use 1h/s and sturdy to get full effect from the type of survivability meant for the class, which from ZOS themselves is a block/tank based one. Which is why I say make wings great again, but I doubt it. And sure, DK can use shields, but not to the same affect as other classes which use them with their own class defenses.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
Because the counter play to how you trigger off balance with mDK is roll-dodge. So you trigger off balance, your opponent roll dodges, your power lash goes to waste if you activate it, or you try and chase them down. Because you have no mobility, you will likely not have chance to do so.
Slot Empowering Chains, problem fixed.KhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »Dueled a lot on PTS as mDK and couple other classes. Its super easy to avoid power lash now. The only time you will get hit by it is if you are doing a poor job with resource management.
I've dueled on PTS too (and watched other mDKs duel) - dodge roll builds still stand no chance (will have to test my own stam builds to draw an accurate idea of how much that match up has improved).
Landing Power Lash against a block build or dmg shield build is no problem.
Sorry but I've got to disagree with your points here.
First of all, forcing us to slot Empowering Chains isn't ideal, since magDk already have a lot of important skills to slot to become effective in PvP. There's only a small chance we get an empty slot of Chain. Also, with Chain or not, missing a Power Lash on PTS wil put it under a 3 seconds cooldown on the caster, which is a lot worse compare to live.
Secondly, the only time I've lost a duel on PTS with a magDK is when that person use Dragon Leap, which is impossible to dodge, while I was playing my med stamNB. Other time, I have no problem dealing with magDK. And when I use my magDK, I only win 2 out of 10 matches with random people.
Nobody is forcing you to slot Empowering Chains, but you don't get to complain about not being able catch up to people if you don't slot it.
...and no offense, but it sounds to me like you didn't fight a very good mDK if that person lost to a dodge roll build (and multiple times).
I'm on PTS with my mDK right now (@DDuke) testing things if you want a reminder of how god awful dodge roll builds still are.
Oh I'm not sugar coating dodge build (cause no one in their right mind will at this point). I'm simply saying that magDK is not doing ok on PTS. I did not say I can dodge every single Power Lash, I'm not that godlike. However, seeing magDK whipping Power Lash to me no longer seem to be a threat, but a windows of opportunity for the next 3 seconds for a counter play.
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
For example, rather than doing the Fossilize->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Fossilize->Flame Lash->Embers(or Chains)->Power Lash. You'll land the Power Lash after they have dodge rolled, or force them to dodge roll again (and spend even more stamina) while you keep dealing damage with your DoTs, Chains, Skoria etc until the next Fossilize.The healing Power Lash provide in PvP is barely enough to cover up for that 3 seconds. And we're only talking about dueling, remember in Cyrodill or even BGs, you'll 1vX a lot more often than 1v1.
Also, this change will mark the first cooldown on a regular skill of ESO, ever.
The healing of Power Lash was increased to last 4 seconds (rather than two), and previously you could only have it up for 2 seconds every 5s as Power Lash has a "cooldown" on Live already unless you're using lightning staff, as you can only set an opponent Off Balance every 5s with Flame Lash (and Off Balance is consumed immediately).
You're correct about the healing time for Power Lash, yet the amount of healing is what bothers me. And I say it again, that amount is barely noticeable for a HOT.
Excuse me? The HOT is over twice as strong as Vigor even before accounting for DK Healing passives.On the dodging side of thing however, I don't doubt your ability to land Power Lash, but I think you forgot to consider about how good your opponent is. You may land Power Lash 10 times out of 10 while fighting someone who has never played magDK, or simply new to the game. But when face off with a more experienced player, you may land a Power Lash or 2, but not that often as on live.
Yes, I'd imagine being able to avoid most of the Power Lashes if you're a good stam player and read your opponent well is the point of making them dodgeable.
How is this a bad thing when looking at overall balance of the game?But my point still remains: was Power Lash really need that nerfs? And 2 at once? This is not the "but we have more OP thing" situation, I'm talking about a well rounded ability. I have no problem with Power Lash, playing with or against it, since it's the trump card for magDK, a class setup with so many other drawback and disadvantage, compare to other classes.
I just explained how the 3s "cooldown" isn't a nerf unless you were using lightning staff, it's a big, big buff considering the de facto 5s cooldown on Live (and it consuming Off Balance on usage).
Care to explain what the mysterious second nerf to Power Lash is? And why you don't mention the doubled healing duration when bringing up the nerf(s?)?
Just to be clear, the double duration isn't quite a buff. They add 2 more seconds, but do not bring up the tooltip, which means the HOT ticks longer, but each ticks heal for less.
Secondly, that tooltip you got there is when you're on a dps setup, but when you're on heavy armor and 1h&B, that tooltip won't be that impressive. And when you consider stamDK right now stacking fury and seventh legion, their Vigor tooltip can easily out heal Power Lash. Add to that, you can Vigor while doing anything, dodging, blocking, running, fighting. While Power Lash must be proc while you're fighting against an off balance target, once every 3 seconds, and that is if you don't miss.
And as I said before, that 3s cooldown might look beautiful for dueling, it is not for group play, where you will need to shift target from target quite frequently (especially in BGs team deathmatch). That's the first nerf. The second is obviously the dodging part.
They did double the tooltip (it is 14k/2s on Live), and no it's not a tooltip bug since I tested it on PTS (I get 3k/second healing over 4 seconds in PvP).
And no, stam DK Vigor tooltip will never outperform Power Lash.
Here's Stam DK with all self buffs:
Gear: Fury+Legion+TK (DW for maximum weapon damage), Wpn Dmg on all jewelry
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Infused Weapon Dmg Enchant
Vigor tooltip: 18 154/5 seconds=3630 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=1815 healing per second
...and the Power Lash (with all self buffs as well, 5x Eyes of Mara 5x BSW 2x Skoria):
28 820/4 seconds=7205 healing per second/2(Battle Spirit)=3602 healing per secondKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Which mDK did you fight? Because my Power Lashes still take close to 50% of dodge rollers' health bar with them & I'd say they're a pretty big threat when combo'd with Leap, FoO projectile etc... you've now just gotta time them right.
Half the health bar, huh? Well, actually probably true cause the people you typically fight are below cp200.
I'm on PTS, so if you've got a high CP dodge roller you think doesn't take 7-8k minimum (as I said, close to half the health bar. With Fossilize+Light Attack added in well over half) from my Power Lash I'd like to see.
My friend you're comparing the number at the wrong situation.
Though I think my saying "vigor can easily outperform Power Lash" was quite arrogant, that Power Lash tooltip you got there is from a dps PvE setup, but you're comparing it to a PvP stamDK setup, it's not a fair fight. You have to take to consideration that we don't (and most of the time, shouldn't) use light armor in PvP as magDK, we use heavy armor, we use S&B, and we surely have to slot 1 least 1 regen set, we cannot run 2 damage sets, unlike in PvE. Also as I said, Power Lash is a heal that require the right situation to proc, and for most of the time, you don't use Power Lash proc to heal, you use Dragon Blood to do it, or you reapply claw to gain the healing effect.
But let's take it away from PvP a bit. If you test magDK on PTS right now, you might see little to no different to live, heck I even get better DPS than I can on live, which is 38K, compare to 37K on live. Not a lot of different, but different. But that is on a target skeleton, not a boss. On PTS right now however, bosses can usually be set off balance for 4 seconds, once every 20 seconds, which means magDK will have to rely on that 4 seconds windows to proc Power Lash. If you somehow miss that 4 seconds windows, you're punished heavily for missing your hard hitting, low resource skill. If this happen to a magSorc or magNB, that wouldn't such a big deal, but this again, is magDK. MagDK is already in the slum. We're melee mag setup, having terrible sustain (no, battle roar alone isn't enough), we don't have an execution, so we do not have that damage spike sky rocking at the end, we do not have any worthy synergy for group play, 10% bonus flame damage is too situational, 5% more weapon damage is barely noticeable and can be received from stamDK setup, and overall damage is not even close to magNB and magSorc. So why do we need to have another type of punishment?1 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedzParallaxz wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »By any means, you are right about the nerf for PvE. Something must change for that Part.
But can someone honestly tell me why a *** strong single target ability, that is connected with a strong heal, has to be undodgeable? And don't say "because of birds". Them being undodgeable is equaly inconsistent and a Bad idea to begin with.
The same reason why he we have no excute or sustain passives.
Earthen Heart=990 stamina every time you Fossilize=990/7(CC Immunity duration)=282 passive stam regen just from doing your normal PvP rotation
For a magicka build with just 647 stam regen (base regen+Mooncalf+Vampire passive), that's like having a "+43% stam regen" passive, and that's not even counting Molten Armaments (should you use it instead of Degeneration for Major Sorcery).
Earthen Heart is trickier to calculate, but assuming you get 3 ulti/s and use Leap every time it's up, then it's worth "280 mag, stam & health regen".
125/3=41s for ulti
125*46(Earthen Heart Resource Return/Ultimate)=5750
5750/41=140 resources/second=280 regen
Of course people don't use ulti as soon as it's up and you might not always be able to CC on cooldown, but this should give some idea of how valuable the passive are sustain wise.
I also understand the "no execute" complaint from S&B perspective - but other mDK builds really don't have need for one (except maybe vs Troll King+Heavy Armor meta dueling builds).
So if there is any solution to S&B mDKs' lack of dmg, it should be a solution independent of other mDK builds, which seriously overperform vs dodge roll builds (or should atleast not affect those match ups for high dmg builds).
P.S. Leap is a significantly stronger "execute substitute" than Power Lash and can be used to finish off dodge rollers even after Power Lash changes.
Execute isn't needed if you play bursty, when I get executed by a stam build, its usually 4/6k rev slices, my whip deals similar. But if you play heavy/dotty which is how ZOS want DK to be played, then it is something needed. Dots aren't great finishers. Calling leap and execute sub is sort of a stretch. Yes it deals high damage. But no, an ult is no where near the same as a spammable execute.
Stam sustain aside, magDK has the worst sustain of their key resource (mag) of any class. Worst mobility (Even with chains) and pretty poor class synergy for survivabilty.
Building tanky requires damage loss, something that sorcs don't have in shields, NBs don't have in cloak. Templars don't have in purge, though have to tank a bit. However they aren't as pigeonholed to use 1h/s and sturdy to get full effect from the type of survivability meant for the class, which from ZOS themselves is a block/tank based one. Which is why I say make wings great again, but I doubt it. And sure, DK can use shields, but not to the same affect as other classes which use them with their own class defenses.
In PvP we can get Desert Rose, or Bloodthorn to help with sustain. In PvE however, we have nothing but Battle Roar, which is not enough at this point.1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm mixed about this, I sure want to get more info about this change in future patch notesThe focus of the discussion should be how DK´s can be helped in PvE environment. MagDK´s are fine next patch for PvP content.4 -
Pr0Skygon✭✭✭✭✭You're correct, and we're doomedKhajiitHasSkooma wrote: »
Thing is, it doesn't matter whose build works or doesn't. You didn't like how your stamNB got hard countered by mDKs. You made a mDK montage and claimed to be mDK player. And now you're spewing all over the forums because you see an opportunity to get mDKs overnerfed.- I play all classes.
I make anti-meta builds of classes/armor types considered weak, like stamblade back in 2014 when this game was called "Elder Staves Online" (a quip about how bad stam builds were).
Heavy armor magplar back in 2016 when everyone were saying heavy armor & magplar were garbage: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk
(the build quickly became the meta magplar build until the proc set era)
I've recently made a non-meta bow/bow stamblade a non-meta mDK and next patch I'd like to play not only my mDK, but also stam bow sorc and melee magicka NB, both builds not present in current meta. - mDK isn't getting overnerfed or nerfed at all next update, in fact it is getting buffed and I've already confirmed this on PTS by dueling dozens of people, including medium armor builds that actually use dodge roll.
[edit for quote]
Dueling and target dummy test will not show you any of the changes. What you need to take in consideration is in group play. In PvE on PTS, magDK are being punished heavily if you miss the 4 seconds off balance windows, for now there will be a cooldown on boss. In Cyrodill and BGs, magDK will have the disadvantage while 1vX, and try to shift from target to target.1 - I play all classes.