AddictionX wrote: »It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.
If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk
The real problem is shield stacking.
Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.
Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.
With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.
Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.
Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
AddictionX wrote: »It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.
If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk
The real problem is shield stacking.
Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.
Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.
With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.
Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.
I'm quite sure the S&B meta builds deal the same (and usually more) damage than those "full glass cannon" shield stackers.
See, it'd be fine if people playing "tanks" were actually playing tanks (i.e. low dmg, high survivability). But when all you give up by slotting S&B is 100-200 tooltip damage on skills while you get 3% passive mitigation & unlimited access to 60%+ block mitigation, something is wrong.
Something like Incap should have 1000-2000 lower tooltip with S&B than what you've got with DW or 2H equipped, not 100-200 - that's just bad balance.
The problem is also that everything they do to "fix" tanking in pvp hurts pve and makes being a tank there a more miserable experience. Don't know why they just don't put certain changes into battle spirit.
The other problem is most pvpers are not good players and that's the reason they have trouble more than what they complain about, which adds a lot of noise to any of this sort of feedback. But, it would be better to make medium and light armor more viable in pvp. Maybe adding pen to battle spirit for light armor (yes, more pen) and for medium might help or something similar. But tbh, nothing wrong with being a tank IMO, but they shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage, you should be giving up something to be tanky - unfortunately, they just keep trying to make people stop being tanky period.
I've run all sort of builds, classes, etc. in pve and pvp and tanked all kind of content from vtrialHMs to playing tanky in pvp and the changes they keep making against tanking are making being a tank in pve a miserable experience. I don't care if I can't be a super tank in pvp, I enjoy playing a variety of builds there, that's why all my characters are all spread out over ranks and I never get one guy built up very high in rank lol, but I would like to enjoy being a tank in pve still.
AddictionX wrote: »Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.AddictionX wrote: »It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.
If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk
The real problem is shield stacking.
Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.
Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.
With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.
Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.
I'm quite sure the S&B meta builds deal the same (and usually more) damage than those "full glass cannon" shield stackers.
See, it'd be fine if people playing "tanks" were actually playing tanks (i.e. low dmg, high survivability). But when all you give up by slotting S&B is 100-200 tooltip damage on skills while you get 3% passive mitigation & unlimited access to 60%+ block mitigation, something is wrong.
Something like Incap should have 1000-2000 lower tooltip with S&B than what you've got with DW or 2H equipped, not 100-200 - that's just bad balance.
Well .... if you think puncure or low slash is what is killing you then let me tell you it probably isnt. SnB damage is not really what anyone uses to take down anyone. infact you can't really unless you somehow die to a bash lol.
If a tank gets attacked from multiple sources sets like 7th ... though if they nerf that people wil just move on and on till we hit hundings or shackle breaker or something...
AddictionX wrote: »The tank knows that people who are wailing on him are not paying attention to their health thus allowing yourself to be killed slowly with an unsuspecting short burst. DK's for one have to get their ultimate up and that takes a good minute even with heroic slash so thats about 45+ seconds of counter play available.
You're thinking from a dps perspective obviously... 3 percent or 100-200 damage might make a difference to you but really to a tank it doesn't since most are not really attacking or going on the actual offensive with heroic slash or ransack/peirce armor(i mean really?)... Not only that even with medium armor on i dont really need to hold block ... just sometimes its a good way to mitigate cheese damage.
AddictionX wrote: »There are multiple ways to get the damage boost needed for the burst as well most of which are dps sets that are used in bursting people down. So to nerf tanking would be to nerf most dps sets in the game.... to nerf mitigation would make everyone basically naked anyways.
There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
AddictionX wrote: »Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.AddictionX wrote: »It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.
If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk
The real problem is shield stacking.
Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.
Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.
With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.
Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.
I'm quite sure the S&B meta builds deal the same (and usually more) damage than those "full glass cannon" shield stackers.
See, it'd be fine if people playing "tanks" were actually playing tanks (i.e. low dmg, high survivability). But when all you give up by slotting S&B is 100-200 tooltip damage on skills while you get 3% passive mitigation & unlimited access to 60%+ block mitigation, something is wrong.
Something like Incap should have 1000-2000 lower tooltip with S&B than what you've got with DW or 2H equipped, not 100-200 - that's just bad balance.
Well .... if you think puncure or low slash is what is killing you then let me tell you it probably isnt. SnB damage is not really what anyone uses to take down anyone. infact you can't really unless you somehow die to a bash lol.
If a tank gets attacked from multiple sources sets like 7th ... though if they nerf that people wil just move on and on till we hit hundings or shackle breaker or something...
You hit the nail on the head there, it's not just sets like 7th Legion etc that makes "tank" builds overperform, it's S&B in general.
I can slot 5x Hunding's 5x Spriggan, and still the difference between running that setup with a DW or 2H on main bar & running it with S&B on main bar will be 100-200 tooltip damage (i.e. virtually nothing).AddictionX wrote: »The tank knows that people who are wailing on him are not paying attention to their health thus allowing yourself to be killed slowly with an unsuspecting short burst. DK's for one have to get their ultimate up and that takes a good minute even with heroic slash so thats about 45+ seconds of counter play available.
You're thinking from a dps perspective obviously... 3 percent or 100-200 damage might make a difference to you but really to a tank it doesn't since most are not really attacking or going on the actual offensive with heroic slash or ransack/peirce armor(i mean really?)... Not only that even with medium armor on i dont really need to hold block ... just sometimes its a good way to mitigate cheese damage.
It isn't necessary to even use Heroic Slash (which is trailing Surprise Attack by only around 300-400 dmg on tooltip).
Nothing prevents a S&B build from using class skills like Surprise Attack, Incap etc as their source of damage, as mentioned before there is no apparent downside when the only difference is 100-200 damage on tooltip.
And as you mentioned... having the S&B lets these builds pressure opponents without even having to hold block, because they never feel threatened at any point thanks to the S&B opness (and I don't use the word "op" slightly).AddictionX wrote: »There are multiple ways to get the damage boost needed for the burst as well most of which are dps sets that are used in bursting people down. So to nerf tanking would be to nerf most dps sets in the game.... to nerf mitigation would make everyone basically naked anyways.
What they need to do is not "nerf tanking", but nerf the damage potential of weapon types made for tanking.
There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
There is a reason why pretty much every dueling tournament these days goes to S&B meta builds.
VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
AddictionX wrote: »AddictionX wrote: »Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.AddictionX wrote: »It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.
If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk
The real problem is shield stacking.
Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.
Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.
With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.
Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.
I'm quite sure the S&B meta builds deal the same (and usually more) damage than those "full glass cannon" shield stackers.
See, it'd be fine if people playing "tanks" were actually playing tanks (i.e. low dmg, high survivability). But when all you give up by slotting S&B is 100-200 tooltip damage on skills while you get 3% passive mitigation & unlimited access to 60%+ block mitigation, something is wrong.
Something like Incap should have 1000-2000 lower tooltip with S&B than what you've got with DW or 2H equipped, not 100-200 - that's just bad balance.
Well .... if you think puncure or low slash is what is killing you then let me tell you it probably isnt. SnB damage is not really what anyone uses to take down anyone. infact you can't really unless you somehow die to a bash lol.
If a tank gets attacked from multiple sources sets like 7th ... though if they nerf that people wil just move on and on till we hit hundings or shackle breaker or something...
You hit the nail on the head there, it's not just sets like 7th Legion etc that makes "tank" builds overperform, it's S&B in general.
I can slot 5x Hunding's 5x Spriggan, and still the difference between running that setup with a DW or 2H on main bar & running it with S&B on main bar will be 100-200 tooltip damage (i.e. virtually nothing).AddictionX wrote: »The tank knows that people who are wailing on him are not paying attention to their health thus allowing yourself to be killed slowly with an unsuspecting short burst. DK's for one have to get their ultimate up and that takes a good minute even with heroic slash so thats about 45+ seconds of counter play available.
You're thinking from a dps perspective obviously... 3 percent or 100-200 damage might make a difference to you but really to a tank it doesn't since most are not really attacking or going on the actual offensive with heroic slash or ransack/peirce armor(i mean really?)... Not only that even with medium armor on i dont really need to hold block ... just sometimes its a good way to mitigate cheese damage.
It isn't necessary to even use Heroic Slash (which is trailing Surprise Attack by only around 300-400 dmg on tooltip).
Nothing prevents a S&B build from using class skills like Surprise Attack, Incap etc as their source of damage, as mentioned before there is no apparent downside when the only difference is 100-200 damage on tooltip.
And as you mentioned... having the S&B lets these builds pressure opponents without even having to hold block, because they never feel threatened at any point thanks to the S&B opness (and I don't use the word "op" slightly).AddictionX wrote: »There are multiple ways to get the damage boost needed for the burst as well most of which are dps sets that are used in bursting people down. So to nerf tanking would be to nerf most dps sets in the game.... to nerf mitigation would make everyone basically naked anyways.
What they need to do is not "nerf tanking", but nerf the damage potential of weapon types made for tanking.
There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
There is a reason why pretty much every dueling tournament these days goes to S&B meta builds.
You some how managed to miss everything im telling you... you do not get the same damage you do from a surprise attack since nb if we are comparing apples and oranges are not only a class...
but they also have access to major resolve, minor resolve, major ward, minor ward, minor endurance(rare buff), major sorcery, major brutality, minor savagery, major beserk, minor beserk, major vitality, minor vitality, minor mending, major protection, minor protection, major evasion(blur has alot of buffs), Major expidition(double take, path of darkness, cripple), empower.......
Now debuffs avaliable..... major fracture, major breach, major defile(death stroke+morphs for 70 ultimate compared to the standard for 250! ultimate), Minor maim(though hard cc+snare).....
VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
AddictionX wrote: »AddictionX wrote: »Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.AddictionX wrote: »It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.
If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,
Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.
The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.
Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.
OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk
The real problem is shield stacking.
Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.
Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.
With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.
Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.
I'm quite sure the S&B meta builds deal the same (and usually more) damage than those "full glass cannon" shield stackers.
See, it'd be fine if people playing "tanks" were actually playing tanks (i.e. low dmg, high survivability). But when all you give up by slotting S&B is 100-200 tooltip damage on skills while you get 3% passive mitigation & unlimited access to 60%+ block mitigation, something is wrong.
Something like Incap should have 1000-2000 lower tooltip with S&B than what you've got with DW or 2H equipped, not 100-200 - that's just bad balance.
Well .... if you think puncure or low slash is what is killing you then let me tell you it probably isnt. SnB damage is not really what anyone uses to take down anyone. infact you can't really unless you somehow die to a bash lol.
If a tank gets attacked from multiple sources sets like 7th ... though if they nerf that people wil just move on and on till we hit hundings or shackle breaker or something...
You hit the nail on the head there, it's not just sets like 7th Legion etc that makes "tank" builds overperform, it's S&B in general.
I can slot 5x Hunding's 5x Spriggan, and still the difference between running that setup with a DW or 2H on main bar & running it with S&B on main bar will be 100-200 tooltip damage (i.e. virtually nothing).AddictionX wrote: »The tank knows that people who are wailing on him are not paying attention to their health thus allowing yourself to be killed slowly with an unsuspecting short burst. DK's for one have to get their ultimate up and that takes a good minute even with heroic slash so thats about 45+ seconds of counter play available.
You're thinking from a dps perspective obviously... 3 percent or 100-200 damage might make a difference to you but really to a tank it doesn't since most are not really attacking or going on the actual offensive with heroic slash or ransack/peirce armor(i mean really?)... Not only that even with medium armor on i dont really need to hold block ... just sometimes its a good way to mitigate cheese damage.
It isn't necessary to even use Heroic Slash (which is trailing Surprise Attack by only around 300-400 dmg on tooltip).
Nothing prevents a S&B build from using class skills like Surprise Attack, Incap etc as their source of damage, as mentioned before there is no apparent downside when the only difference is 100-200 damage on tooltip.
And as you mentioned... having the S&B lets these builds pressure opponents without even having to hold block, because they never feel threatened at any point thanks to the S&B opness (and I don't use the word "op" slightly).AddictionX wrote: »There are multiple ways to get the damage boost needed for the burst as well most of which are dps sets that are used in bursting people down. So to nerf tanking would be to nerf most dps sets in the game.... to nerf mitigation would make everyone basically naked anyways.
What they need to do is not "nerf tanking", but nerf the damage potential of weapon types made for tanking.
There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
There is a reason why pretty much every dueling tournament these days goes to S&B meta builds.
You some how managed to miss everything im telling you... you do not get the same damage you do from a surprise attack since nb if we are comparing apples and oranges are not only a class...
but they also have access to major resolve, minor resolve, major ward, minor ward, minor endurance(rare buff), major sorcery, major brutality, minor savagery, major beserk, minor beserk, major vitality, minor vitality, minor mending, major protection, minor protection, major evasion(blur has alot of buffs), Major expidition(double take, path of darkness, cripple), empower.......
Now debuffs avaliable..... major fracture, major breach, major defile(death stroke+morphs for 70 ultimate compared to the standard for 250! ultimate), Minor maim(though hard cc+snare).....
Aha, so now it's a "nerf nb" post... wonderful.
What if I told you my mag DK kills any non-S&B stamblade in less than 20 seconds, where as a S&B stamblade can live pretty much infinitely behind block and Troll King, while dealing similar dmg to those non-S&B NBs?
See, the problem isn't really "NB", it's S&B. You can just as well give a Warden (or any other class) S&B and same thing will happen.
VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
You see no problem in that person A has 20k burst damage, but dies in less than 20 seconds because he doesn't have mitigation and can't block infinitely, while person B has 19,9k burst damage but is virtually unkillable thanks to extra mitigation & infinite blocking?
Which build would you play, if you were a competitive player?
Rhetorical question, but feel free to answer if you must.
Not everyone wants to play a S&B build.
VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
You see no problem in that person A has 20k burst damage, but dies in less than 20 seconds because he doesn't have mitigation and can't block infinitely, while person B has 19,9k burst damage but is virtually unkillable thanks to extra mitigation & infinite blocking?
Which build would you play, if you were a competitive player?
Rhetorical question, but feel free to answer if you must.
Not everyone wants to play a S&B build.
AddictionX wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
You see no problem in that person A has 20k burst damage, but dies in less than 20 seconds because he doesn't have mitigation and can't block infinitely, while person B has 19,9k burst damage but is virtually unkillable thanks to extra mitigation & infinite blocking?
Which build would you play, if you were a competitive player?
Rhetorical question, but feel free to answer if you must.
Not everyone wants to play a S&B build.
Give me the math behind 19k burst damage i would love to have that. Cause now your claiming things out of thin air lol
also give me the math behind infinte blocking....
AddictionX wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
You see no problem in that person A has 20k burst damage, but dies in less than 20 seconds because he doesn't have mitigation and can't block infinitely, while person B has 19,9k burst damage but is virtually unkillable thanks to extra mitigation & infinite blocking?
Which build would you play, if you were a competitive player?
Rhetorical question, but feel free to answer if you must.
Not everyone wants to play a S&B build.
Give me the math behind 19k burst damage i would love to have that. Cause now your claiming things out of thin air lol
also give me the math behind infinte blocking....
20k/19,9k were just an example, but I happen to like math so here's two mirror setups, one with S&B another with 2H. Not meta setups or anything, but just to give you an example of the damage difference between combos:
S&BGear: 2x Troll King 5x Legion 3x Agi 2x Asylum S&B
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Off Balance, +20% dmg after Incap
Total DmgDone Modifier: 54% (8% Minor Berserk+13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
5063 (Light Attack)/2(Battle Spirit)=2531+70%(CritModifier)=4302
19 624 (Incap)/2(Battle Spirit)=9812+70%(CritModifier)=16 680
[23 095 (Merciless)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=13 857+70%(CritModifier)=23 556
[4024 (Bash)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=2414+70%(CritModifier)=4104
48 642 Burst Damage (on zero mitigation/defensive CPs)
2HGear: 2x Troll King 5x Legion 3x Agi 2x Asylum 2H
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Off Balance, +20% dmg after Incap
Total DmgDone Modifier: 54% (8% Minor Berserk+13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
6837 (Light Attack)/2(Battle Spirit)=3418+70%(CritModifier)=5811
19 902 (Incap)/2(Battle Spirit)=9951+70%(CritModifier)=16 917
[23 423 (Merciless)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=14 053+70%(CritModifier)=23 891
[2094 (Bash)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=1256+70%(CritModifier)=2135
48 754 Burst Damage (on zero mitigation/defensive CPs)
As for permablocking... I'll just refer you to any duel spot anywhere, good luck running one of those S&B builds out of stamina.
That said, it's hard to assess if they'd be able to do so, as these builds will be the ones pressuring you (not the other way around) and they only block after you've (unsuccessfully) tried to burst their 20k+ health down through the S&B mitigation.
2-3 seconds with Troll King & they're back at full health nuking you with virtually the same dmg as any 2H or DW build.
I was more thinking damage procs, but sort of. The way they are balanced for CP with initial high values means that when everything else becomes weaker due to lack of CP they keep their initial strength.
However I still don't feel like viper/maelstrom seems really worth it over something else that increases damage across the board, or asylum 2H, which feels a little overtuned in itself. Using these sets now you have to change your playstyle a bit to get it to hit, which feels like a fair risk/reward. Only one mildly too strong is skoria, which fits well into some playstyles and isn't really directly counterable unless a templar/with a purger. (Grouped also lowers its effectiveness, had many wrong target hits.)
vMA 2h and trollking are only really decent because they are both bugged to ignore some function, no crits/defile respectively. A 45% defile on troll kings is enough to kill it hard, and thats in noCP of all places.
Tank meta is not fully problem coz block or heavy armor(especially ha). For example majority of sorcs despite being playing in light armor with large mana pool, i.e. what supposed to grant high damage capability, are just building to survive with stacking 3 shields to get 20k+ shields but uncapable to kill decent opponent even in 2v1, i.e. without snb, without ha but yet still tanks. Or stamina builds that building to survive and kite, not to kill and wine that they can't kill anyone on their tank builds. That's that problem - people building for tanking/running and survivability in Cyro, not for actual fight.
Just yesterday meet sorc on bg who bursted me down with clench+7k wrath+8k frags+executes; and in rematch I bursted him down. That is what actually fun to play - build with high damage capability which can kill and can be killed in 1v1, not yet another shieldstacking sorc who will never will die in 1v1 and himself cant damage you hp lower than 90%.
Blocking mechanic, S&B and Resto Ulti and Sets like Wizard Riposte, Pirate Skeleton, Seventh Legion and many others are a huge problem.
It just makes no sense whatsoever to have more outgoing damage on a S&B tank setup compared to a 2H/bow setup, which is currently the case. Reducing the damage of those tanky setups will most likely create a shift towards more offensive builds?
AddictionX wrote: »AddictionX wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
You see no problem in that person A has 20k burst damage, but dies in less than 20 seconds because he doesn't have mitigation and can't block infinitely, while person B has 19,9k burst damage but is virtually unkillable thanks to extra mitigation & infinite blocking?
Which build would you play, if you were a competitive player?
Rhetorical question, but feel free to answer if you must.
Not everyone wants to play a S&B build.
Give me the math behind 19k burst damage i would love to have that. Cause now your claiming things out of thin air lol
also give me the math behind infinte blocking....
20k/19,9k were just an example, but I happen to like math so here's two mirror setups, one with S&B another with 2H. Not meta setups or anything, but just to give you an example of the damage difference between combos:
S&BGear: 2x Troll King 5x Legion 3x Agi 2x Asylum S&B
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Off Balance, +20% dmg after Incap
Total DmgDone Modifier: 54% (8% Minor Berserk+13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
5063 (Light Attack)/2(Battle Spirit)=2531+70%(CritModifier)=4302
19 624 (Incap)/2(Battle Spirit)=9812+70%(CritModifier)=16 680
[23 095 (Merciless)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=13 857+70%(CritModifier)=23 556
[4024 (Bash)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=2414+70%(CritModifier)=4104
48 642 Burst Damage (on zero mitigation/defensive CPs)
2HGear: 2x Troll King 5x Legion 3x Agi 2x Asylum 2H
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Off Balance, +20% dmg after Incap
Total DmgDone Modifier: 54% (8% Minor Berserk+13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
6837 (Light Attack)/2(Battle Spirit)=3418+70%(CritModifier)=5811
19 902 (Incap)/2(Battle Spirit)=9951+70%(CritModifier)=16 917
[23 423 (Merciless)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=14 053+70%(CritModifier)=23 891
[2094 (Bash)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=1256+70%(CritModifier)=2135
48 754 Burst Damage (on zero mitigation/defensive CPs)
As for permablocking... I'll just refer you to any duel spot anywhere, good luck running one of those S&B builds out of stamina.
That said, it's hard to assess if they'd be able to do so, as these builds will be the ones pressuring you (not the other way around) and they only block after you've (unsuccessfully) tried to burst their 20k+ health down through the S&B mitigation.
2-3 seconds with Troll King & they're back at full health nuking you with virtually the same dmg as any 2H or DW build.
Troll king description is....When you heal a friendly target, if they are still below 50% Health, their Health Recovery is increased by 1548 for 10 seconds.http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Troll+King+Set < unless this has not been updated but as far as that shows you need a friend for that to work and they need to be below 50 percent health. To grant THEM 1548 health recovery.... it only add's 2 percent healing otherwise. So probably not going to do much to top off your health like you see in these duels.
Im not sure about you but.... 1548 health recovery on a friend isnt helping me at all... even say if it was on me have you ever tried a health recovery build? with like beekeeper? I think you should try it from what i understand you can get your health recovery around 4k or more...