Me and my friends arent the only ones whos frustrated at the current meta? (PVP)

olsborg

I mean, its quite obvious by now what it is...tanks and tanks and tanks.
You dont even have to hold block to be tanky...thats just part of the problem. The problem imo is how easy and how cancerous it is what most players are doing now, and understandably so. ZOS needs to look at pvp more closely.

Apart from block...(wich might or might not get fixed next patch) you have the mitigation in cyrodiil atm. You have a tooltip of 10-11k on some skills and they hit players for 2-2.5k. With 12k penetration on a build. And these tanky builds can sustain for a very, very long time and dont have that terrible dmg. Put 2-3 of them together and they start taking players (potatoes) down.

Me and a few friends of mine discussed this the other day, how sick we are of how tanky the meta is atm.. ppl take way too long to die for basicly just standing here. Just a few frustrating toughts I had atm, feel free to discuss.

Beardimus

Block tank meta has overtaken wild auto heal meta for sure.

There are ways round it for sure, it its annoying. And well just dull.


Look at BG pace shift when CP landed.

VaranisArano

Good news! ZOS doesn't like the current tank meta either!

Bad news! ZOS can't figure out how what is the magic bullet to fix the tanking problem in Cyrodiil. Probably because there is no silver bullet but instead a combination of multiple effects from gear, passives, and CP.

Eventually, ZOS will figure something out with lots of hits and misses along the way. How do I know this? Because ZOS has been trying to address the PVP tank meta since the Morrowind chapter with lots of hits and misses along the way. Watching ZOS try to narrow down a fix for PVP tanks is like watching a game of Battleship.

(And lest anyone think I'm blaming PVP tanks for causing ZOS to vastly change the way sustain works in the game, I distinctly recall the forces on the PVE side that also drove the changes, namely high-end trials teams blowing through the hardest content ZOS could offer. Furthermore, ZOS doesn't like perma-blocking tanks in PVE any more than they like it in PVP.)

Aedaryl

I call that the turtle meta.

Meta is 1h&S build on magicka templar and dk and on stamina warden, Dragon knight, Templar and Sorcerer. This is super tanky build, based on block as defensive mechanic.

The 3 builds out of the meta and underperforming are stamina NB, magicka Sorc and magicka NB or any non 1&S block build based.

Thezes turtles are able to tank an absolute crazy amount of damage with infinite sustain while being able to put a huge burst able to kill non meta turtle build and noobs.

Tutles often stack thogever, and here is the paroxism of madness. You can't kill them. They stacks vigor between each others, the fights last forever, turtles will sustain and stay on defensive and then burst with 4 ultimates The team that have a magicka sorc/NB or stamblade will lost because the defensives mechanics aka shield and dodge aren't able to take simulate ultim burst.

There is nothing you can do as a non turtle to counter it. The only counter available is to have someone fully build around Major and Minor Defile, but that's mean you really need a group around you to make it work because it's not viable in solo/duo.

The problem of the meta is it will be very hard to balance it.

There tankiness come form multiple source like blocking, like heavy armor, like 1&S, the champion system, and overperforming sets like 7th Legion.

In fact, ZoS descrease the cost of block and reworked block glyph. But theze turtle don't use block glyphs, so they will receive a huge buff with Dragon Bones.


The best way to have this meta balanced is to finds how exactly it work.

VaranisArano

When you talk about balancing tanks in CP PVP, you also have to consider the differences between Battlegrounds and Cryodiil. In Battelgrounds, you can't ignore a tank or use overwhelming numbers. In Cyrodiil, you can do both (and even small groups can overwhelm a tank if they know how to do it).

That's one reason why Battlegrounds is going back to No CP. You can't balance CP tanks for Cyrodiil and have them not be OP in 4v4v4, and you can't nerf CP tanks to the point that they can be dealt with easily in 4v4v4 and not nerf them to the ground in Cryodiil's groups of 8-24+ players.

Drakkdjinn

Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.

ak_pvp

Eh, sort of. But they can be outplayed via unblockable CC or dots. Or simply by ignoring them. Not as possible in BGs though.

The builds people cry about most run 7th, and have the skill to get it up without being killed by the zerg, which IMO is fair. They generally just potato mash, because the damage isn't really high enough to kill a good player solo. To become truly unkillable, you lose a shittone of damage unless you run with a group, but then there are more useful stuff for you to do. The true unkillable builds should lose a lot next patch with block changes.

Heavy has been nerfed a lot as is IMO, but not in the right places that discourage becoming a world boss, instead things like wrath and constitution got nerfed to ***, and nothing can be changed further without harming PvE tanks, or those who don't spec into the full meta 7th/flex/bloodspawn warden 1vX build. Hell, my MDK lost so much damage and sustain from the changes to constitution/wrath I run light, which is actually decent. Maybe, if things like med was better, then people would run that more.

ak_pvp

Aedaryl wrote: »

I call that the turtle meta.

Meta is 1h&S build on magicka templar and dk and on stamina warden, Dragon knight, Templar and Sorcerer. This is super tanky build, based on block as defensive mechanic.

The 3 builds out of the meta and underperforming are stamina NB, magicka Sorc and magicka NB or any non 1&S block build based.

Thezes turtles are able to tank an absolute crazy amount of damage with infinite sustain while being able to put a huge burst able to kill non meta turtle build and noobs.

Tutles often stack thogever, and here is the paroxism of madness. You can't kill them. They stacks vigor between each others, the fights last forever, turtles will sustain and stay on defensive and then burst with 4 ultimates The team that have a magicka sorc/NB or stamblade will lost because the defensives mechanics aka shield and dodge aren't able to take simulate ultim burst.

There is nothing you can do as a non turtle to counter it. The only counter available is to have someone fully build around Major and Minor Defile, but that's mean you really need a group around you to make it work because it's not viable in solo/duo.

The problem of the meta is it will be very hard to balance it.

There tankiness come form multiple source like blocking, like heavy armor, like 1&S, the champion system, and overperforming sets like 7th Legion.

In fact, ZoS descrease the cost of block and reworked block glyph. But theze turtle don't use block glyphs, so they will receive a huge buff with Dragon Bones.


The best way to have this meta balanced is to finds how exactly it work.

Magsorc, MagNB and stamNB underperforming... Kek. Sure, they have been replaced as meta by the warden builds, but they are FAR from underperforming and still in the top few classes.

olsborg

In fact, ZoS descrease the cost of block and reworked block glyph. But theze turtle don't use block glyphs, so they will receive a huge buff with Dragon Bones

Very true, and sad.

Mitigation is also a problem. And certain sets are grossly overperforming #1 is seventh legion.

Leandor

Currently, <50 pvp brings the most fun. Closely followed by anything no-cp.

I have been adamant in defending cp in pvp for a very long time. I have completely changed my mind. The only bit of separation between pvp and pve we need is applicability of champion points.

I agree that pvp is stale due to the extremes. And I mean both, burst damage and damage mitigation. The power creep must disappear in order to have a healthy pvp environment.

Instead of adjusting or nerfing or buffing every single set and ability and thereby make the chasm between pve players and pvp players unbridgeable, remove cp from pvp completely.

On the other hand, I opened a second account to have more options for baby pvp (just can't bring myself to delete any char on my main account), and let me tell you, I hate no-cp pve with a passion. So bothersome.

ak_pvp

Leandor wrote: »

Currently, <50 pvp brings the most fun. Closely followed by anything no-cp.

I have been adamant in defending cp in pvp for a very long time. I have completely changed my mind. The only bit of separation between pvp and pve we need is applicability of champion points.

I agree that pvp is stale due to the extremes. And I mean both, burst damage and damage mitigation. The power creep must disappear in order to have a healthy pvp environment.

Instead of adjusting or nerfing or buffing every single set and ability and thereby make the chasm between pve players and pvp players unbridgeable, remove cp from pvp completely.

On the other hand, I opened a second account to have more options for baby pvp (just can't bring myself to delete any char on my main account), and let me tell you, I hate no-cp pve with a passion. So bothersome.

CP being a statfest instead of a whole "active passive" system like the top stars is one of the worst features. I do feel like something is needed for progression though.

Cap raised, something becomes OP, CP gets nerfed. Repeat.

Rohamad_Ali

So nothing changes with Dragon *** ? Dang .

Waffennacht

I hated the glass cannon meta.

I prefer more tanky specs.

Why is defensive style always so hated?

(I think because people prefer are addicted to getting kills)

DDuke

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

I call that the turtle meta.

Meta is 1h&S build on magicka templar and dk and on stamina warden, Dragon knight, Templar and Sorcerer. This is super tanky build, based on block as defensive mechanic.

The 3 builds out of the meta and underperforming are stamina NB, magicka Sorc and magicka NB or any non 1&S block build based.

Thezes turtles are able to tank an absolute crazy amount of damage with infinite sustain while being able to put a huge burst able to kill non meta turtle build and noobs.

Tutles often stack thogever, and here is the paroxism of madness. You can't kill them. They stacks vigor between each others, the fights last forever, turtles will sustain and stay on defensive and then burst with 4 ultimates The team that have a magicka sorc/NB or stamblade will lost because the defensives mechanics aka shield and dodge aren't able to take simulate ultim burst.

There is nothing you can do as a non turtle to counter it. The only counter available is to have someone fully build around Major and Minor Defile, but that's mean you really need a group around you to make it work because it's not viable in solo/duo.

The problem of the meta is it will be very hard to balance it.

There tankiness come form multiple source like blocking, like heavy armor, like 1&S, the champion system, and overperforming sets like 7th Legion.

In fact, ZoS descrease the cost of block and reworked block glyph. But theze turtle don't use block glyphs, so they will receive a huge buff with Dragon Bones.


The best way to have this meta balanced is to finds how exactly it work.

Magsorc, MagNB and stamNB underperforming... Kek. Sure, they have been replaced as meta by the warden builds, but they are FAR from underperforming and still in the top few classes.

Yup... if I recall correctly a S&B/2H Stamblade won the previous few dueling tournaments in PC NA.

---

Totally agree with the OP btw, sick & tired of the tank meta.

S&B is the biggest issue - you basically trade 100-200 tooltip dmg for 3% mitigation (& 4% crit mitigation if you run Impen on shield), as well as the capability to block pretty much infinitely for another 60%+ mitigation.

When all you lose is 100-200 tooltip damage, that really isn't enough of a tradeoff - S&B should deal significantly less dmg than 2H or DW, which would let those other builds actually pressure and kill S&B builds when they aren't constantly forced into defensive.

Troll King (and Bloodspawn to a lesser degree) is the 2nd biggest problem, especially when combined with S&B blocking.

Lastly, shield stacking is still way too strong.

Ragnaroek93

First of all CP campaign is far better balanced than no CP in my opinion (stam builds rely on CP for off balance and Truth set). The health/damage ratio on no CP campaign is broken, it's extremely hard to burst someone down, all what matters is pressure (and Soul Strike is so disgusting to deal with on no CP as stambuild).


The more I play on PTS the more I think that the patch is alright. Non SnB builds get a good buff with stunn on off balance with a heavy attack (it's a ressource free stun and you get one more skill slot).

What I would change in the patch:
- Make Dodgeroll stronger. Either make more stuff dodgeable again or give us (maybe only medium armor builds?) some invisibility frames during dodgeroll like in Dark Souls for example. It's frustrating to get spammed to death by undodgeable stuff like Warden Birds, Shalks, Curses, mag Dk embers/powerlashes/leaps, Soul Strike etc (not saying that these skills should get nerfed - they should made dodgeable but giving the affected classes something else to compensate the rework).
- Nerf Defile.
- Nerf Cloak.
- Nerf Elemental Drain (give one morph the ressource return and the other morph the penetration).
- Nerf Shieldstacking.
- Tune down Troll King, Skoria, Zaan, Caluurions, Shadowrend and Bloodspawn.
- Buff spell and weapondmg boni (for example increase all wpn and spelldmg setboni by ~20% to make high damage builds more worth compared to sustain stacking).
- Give stamdk and stamsorc a spammable class skill (I think every class should have a unique feeling - spamming Heroic Slash, even tho it's a very powerfull skill, doesn't feel unique at all while also being forced to run sword and board).

umagon

It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.

If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.

Waffennacht

I @umagon

DDuke

umagon wrote: »

It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.

If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.

There's still burst damage - the difference is that the burst damage comes from builds that also have insane mitigation and the way to "adapt" is to also play that build with insane mitigation.


For example, here's an Incap tooltip with 5x Truth 3x Agi 2x Troll King:
With Nirnhoned Asylum 2H: 17 206
With Nirnhoned Asylum S&B: 17 038

That's less than 100 dmg difference in PvP.


S&B is overperforming there's no way around it.

Cinbri

CP is problem of it.

ak_pvp

DDuke wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.

If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.

There's still burst damage - the difference is that the burst damage comes from builds that also have insane mitigation and the way to "adapt" is to also play that build with insane mitigation.


For example, here's an Incap tooltip with 5x Truth 3x Agi 2x Troll King:
With Nirnhoned Asylum 2H: 17 206
With Nirnhoned Asylum S&B: 17 038

That's less than 100 dmg difference in PvP.


S&B is overperforming there's no way around it.

5% extra damage, and the 2h abilities?

olsborg

There's still burst damage - the difference is that the burst damage comes from builds that also have insane mitigation and the way to "adapt" is to also play that build with insane mitigation.

When all you lose is 100-200 tooltip damage, that really isn't enough of a tradeoff - S&B should deal significantly less dmg than 2H or DW, which would let those other builds actually pressure and kill S&B builds when they aren't constantly forced into defensive.

Troll King (and Bloodspawn to a lesser degree) is the 2nd biggest problem, especially when combined with S&B blocking.

Lastly, shield stacking is still way too strong.

Exactly. Problem is the tankmeta can still deal dmg. Mostly due to the sets available to heavy armor. Cp is ofc also a culprit.

DDuke

ak_pvp wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.

If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.

There's still burst damage - the difference is that the burst damage comes from builds that also have insane mitigation and the way to "adapt" is to also play that build with insane mitigation.


For example, here's an Incap tooltip with 5x Truth 3x Agi 2x Troll King:
With Nirnhoned Asylum 2H: 17 206
With Nirnhoned Asylum S&B: 17 038

That's less than 100 dmg difference in PvP.


S&B is overperforming there's no way around it.

5% extra damage, and the 2h abilities?

5% extra damage is heavily diluted since it's bundled up with all the CP modifiers, Minor Berserk etc.


Sure, having execute is nice and a reason to front bar 2H (atleast in open world where you want to kill people quickly) - but it still doesn't make up for the benefits of S&B (especially when you use class skills to deal the bulk of the dmg anyway).

Besides, it's not like S&B skills aren't good either... Heroic Slash for instance has the same tooltip dmg as Flying Blade from DW & far better effects, so one could say it even has the best spammable for stam sorcs/DKs. Not to mention Rev Bash for Major Defile...

Derra

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.

Found the procctato.

ak_pvp

Derra wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.

Found the procctato.

Are proctatos even a problem anymore? Zaans and caluurion seems to be getting a nerf, and everything else has been.

Derra

ak_pvp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.

Found the procctato.

Are proctatos even a problem anymore? Zaans and caluurion seems to be getting a nerf, and everything else has been.

Proccs are still overperforming by the very nature of nonCP.
Everything that could benefit from CP + maxstats + crit is relatively less effective in nonCP than things that would only get affected by CP not by the additional stats + crit.

trollking, sheer venom + viper, selene, velidreth, ophidian venom all get used successfully in cp. In nonCP their effectiveness increases compared to using "normal" sets.

My stamblade is using trollking 5 viper 5 legion maelstrom 2h with stampede. It´s pretty beast in nonCP with 2 procced dots + free healing from trollking.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.

Found the procctato.

Are proctatos even a problem anymore? Zaans and caluurion seems to be getting a nerf, and everything else has been.

Proccs are still overperforming by the very nature of nonCP.
Everything that could benefit from CP + maxstats + crit is relatively less effective in nonCP than things that would only get affected by CP not by the additional stats + crit.

trollking, sheer venom + viper, selene, velidreth, ophidian venom all get used successfully in cp. In nonCP their effectiveness increases compared to using "normal" sets.

My stamblade is using trollking 5 viper 5 legion maelstrom 2h with stampede. It´s pretty beast in nonCP with 2 procced dots + free healing from trollking.

Maelstrom 2H I can understand, only takes one gear slot & being a bleed it ignores mitigation. It's also bugged(?) and actually can proc, unlike any other proc out there.
With 6000/5s tooltip, that averages around 600 damage (+crits) per second.

Viper on the other hand is 6400/4s, but is affected by mitigation & cannot crit. It's around 300-400/damage per second in PvP & you have to get suboptimal set bonuses (2x crit 1x stamina) for that proc - having tested it in no CP (and the better version for bow users, Sheer Venom), it's just meh imo, gimps your burst damage waay too much.

If you play DW/2H, Blooddrinker could be an interesting jewelry/DW bar option actually. You don't need it on both bars afaik, it'll buff your 2H passive bleed & Maelstrom bleed as soon as you swap to DW bar (and it'll buff blood craze/passive bleed there as well). Nets you far more damage than Viper (120/second for Maelstrom bleed alone).

Vapirko

The new group meta, now that EOTS is more or less finished, is to have a bunch of super tanky builds and some nightblades with a Templar healer or two and just infinitely spam heals while you outnumber people 5-1. I hit about 5k wpn damage fully buffed and hit some dude rezzing his friend in the middle of a fight with a fully buffed dizzying swing and It barely touched his health (no shields) and these types are running around all over.

ak_pvp

Derra wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.

Found the procctato.

Are proctatos even a problem anymore? Zaans and caluurion seems to be getting a nerf, and everything else has been.

Proccs are still overperforming by the very nature of nonCP.
Everything that could benefit from CP + maxstats + crit is relatively less effective in nonCP than things that would only get affected by CP not by the additional stats + crit.

trollking, sheer venom + viper, selene, velidreth, ophidian venom all get used successfully in cp. In nonCP their effectiveness increases compared to using "normal" sets.

My stamblade is using trollking 5 viper 5 legion maelstrom 2h with stampede. It´s pretty beast in nonCP with 2 procced dots + free healing from trollking.

I was more thinking damage procs, but sort of. The way they are balanced for CP with initial high values means that when everything else becomes weaker due to lack of CP they keep their initial strength.

However I still don't feel like viper/maelstrom seems really worth it over something else that increases damage across the board, or asylum 2H, which feels a little overtuned in itself. Using these sets now you have to change your playstyle a bit to get it to hit, which feels like a fair risk/reward. Only one mildly too strong is skoria, which fits well into some playstyles and isn't really directly counterable unless a templar/with a purger. (Grouped also lowers its effectiveness, had many wrong target hits.)

vMA 2h and trollking are only really decent because they are both bugged to ignore some function, no crits/defile respectively. A 45% defile on troll kings is enough to kill it hard, and thats in noCP of all places.

Quantum_V

Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,

Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.

The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.

Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.

OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.

xaraan

The problem is also that everything they do to "fix" tanking in pvp hurts pve and makes being a tank there a more miserable experience. Don't know why they just don't put certain changes into battle spirit.

The other problem is most pvpers are not good players and that's the reason they have trouble more than what they complain about, which adds a lot of noise to any of this sort of feedback. But, it would be better to make medium and light armor more viable in pvp. Maybe adding pen to battle spirit for light armor (yes, more pen) and for medium might help or something similar. But tbh, nothing wrong with being a tank IMO, but they shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage, you should be giving up something to be tanky - unfortunately, they just keep trying to make people stop being tanky period.

I've run all sort of builds, classes, etc. in pve and pvp and tanked all kind of content from vtrialHMs to playing tanky in pvp and the changes they keep making against tanking are making being a tank in pve a miserable experience. I don't care if I can't be a super tank in pvp, I enjoy playing a variety of builds there, that's why all my characters are all spread out over ranks and I never get one guy built up very high in rank lol, but I would like to enjoy being a tank in pve still.

AddictionX

umagon wrote: »

It’s more of a cycle than anything. In the past there was burst damage builds everywhere. And it worked well because there wasn’t much in the way of defense to prevent it. Now burst damage can be countered. And more who do not want fights to come down to who can get their rotation off the quickest have started build more defensively. I find many people who can’t counter tanks are ones who absolutely refuse to change from a burst dps build to a build that can counter high defensive builds.

If other players can adapt to counter the burst era then the burst users can adapt to the high defense era. There are counters and they seldom used. I can’t begin to tell you how many people opening attack on my tank is some burst dps combo. And more than 95% of the time it fails. Instead of applying debuffs and using skills, weapons, sets that bypass most of the defenses.

Quantum_V wrote: »

Constitution, wrath, lingering health pots, major mending on some skills, heavy armor overall, defensive CP scaling and blocking have been nerfed to the ground already,

Defile, defile scaling from CP, blockable skills have been made unblockable (like mages wrath), unblockable CCs, master weapons with bleeds, have all been implemented and buffed.

The only players you can't kill now are either; total complete specced out tanks (which at that point they're most likely irrelevant in Cyrodiil's scenario), or players that are probably better than you.

Not saying it's your case, or anybody's case, but after such numerous changes to the defensive meta people need to start thinking about what they're doing wrong instead of blaming the game for every difficult encounter in open world. l2p issues are a lot more common than what might think.

OBS.: yes, there are unkillable tanks in BGs that guard people and are actually relevant due to their ability to take flags and what not BUT no-CP BGs are coming so that'll be fixed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk

The real problem is shield stacking.

Why do people want to go full glass cannon? because they know if they just stack damage and alittle bit on the side they can basically take down everything.

Burst isnt everything any more thankfully. More tanks will likely continue to show up as long as shield stacking continues.

With out shield stacking burst wouldnt really be needed as much as people are stacking. Then they can focus on countering the tanks defensives... but because they feel like burst is the only way due to how much you need in cyrodil to be effective... the counter tanks will likely continue to show up.

Cause thats how most of us are built... to counter your burst and capitalize on your errors in your builds.

Defile, and bleed counters them, unblockable damage and constant pressure on their stamina/magicka.