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Me and my friends arent the only ones whos frustrated at the current meta? (PVP)
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AddictionX✭✭✭✭AddictionX wrote: »AddictionX wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »There is no universe in which it is fair that a S&B player deals virtually the same amount of damage as I deal with DW or 2H (in the very same gear), while they also get all that mitigation.
From what I'm seeing from your descriptions, a S&B play and a DW/2H player are dealing virtually the same damage with their class skills.
What's the problem with that? Using One-hand and Shield doesn't nerf your class skills and using DW and 2H doesn't buff your class skills (okay, dual swords sort of does). Why shouldn't your class skills be hitting for similar amounts?
Because the S&B not only gives you one extra set piece (compared to 2H), but also passively gives you 3% worth of mitigation (worth much more than the 100-200 tooltip dmg difference on skills) & infinite blocking capabilities (i.e. 60%+ mitigation)?
There is literally no compelling reason to run anything other than S&B if you're using your class skills to deal damage.
And that's a problem, why? If you are using DW or 2H versus 1H&S, presumably its because you want to use those weapon skills. But if you don't do damage using weapon skills, it makes perfect sense to use 1H&S for mitigation while using your class skills for damage.
I don't see how this is somehow unfair that your class skills hit for more or less the same amount of damage no matter which weapon skills you are using.
Basically, a S&B player trades weapon skill damage from DW or 2H for increased mitigation from S&B. That's a fair tradeoff - unless you are trying ot argue that DW and 2H need more damage to equal the S&B mitigation benefits. Using DW, 2H or S&B doesn't affect your class skill damage very much, and I'm confused as to how exactly that's unfiar.
You see no problem in that person A has 20k burst damage, but dies in less than 20 seconds because he doesn't have mitigation and can't block infinitely, while person B has 19,9k burst damage but is virtually unkillable thanks to extra mitigation & infinite blocking?
Which build would you play, if you were a competitive player?
Rhetorical question, but feel free to answer if you must.
Not everyone wants to play a S&B build.
Give me the math behind 19k burst damage i would love to have that. Cause now your claiming things out of thin air lol
also give me the math behind infinte blocking....
20k/19,9k were just an example, but I happen to like math so here's two mirror setups, one with S&B another with 2H. Not meta setups or anything, but just to give you an example of the damage difference between combos:
S&BGear: 2x Troll King 5x Legion 3x Agi 2x Asylum S&B
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Off Balance, +20% dmg after Incap
Total DmgDone Modifier: 54% (8% Minor Berserk+13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
5063 (Light Attack)/2(Battle Spirit)=2531+70%(CritModifier)=4302
19 624 (Incap)/2(Battle Spirit)=9812+70%(CritModifier)=16 680
[23 095 (Merciless)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=13 857+70%(CritModifier)=23 556
[4024 (Bash)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=2414+70%(CritModifier)=4104
48 642 Burst Damage (on zero mitigation/defensive CPs)
2HGear: 2x Troll King 5x Legion 3x Agi 2x Asylum 2H
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, Off Balance, +20% dmg after Incap
Total DmgDone Modifier: 54% (8% Minor Berserk+13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
6837 (Light Attack)/2(Battle Spirit)=3418+70%(CritModifier)=5811
19 902 (Incap)/2(Battle Spirit)=9951+70%(CritModifier)=16 917
[23 423 (Merciless)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=14 053+70%(CritModifier)=23 891
[2094 (Bash)/2(Battle Spirit)]+20%(Incap DmgTaken debuff)=1256+70%(CritModifier)=2135
48 754 Burst Damage (on zero mitigation/defensive CPs)
As for permablocking... I'll just refer you to any duel spot anywhere, good luck running one of those S&B builds out of stamina.
That said, it's hard to assess if they'd be able to do so, as these builds will be the ones pressuring you (not the other way around) and they only block after you've (unsuccessfully) tried to burst their 20k+ health down through the S&B mitigation.
2-3 seconds with Troll King & they're back at full health nuking you with virtually the same dmg as any 2H or DW build.
Troll king description is....When you heal a friendly target, if they are still below 50% Health, their Health Recovery is increased by 1548 for 10 seconds.http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Troll+King+Set < unless this has not been updated but as far as that shows you need a friend for that to work and they need to be below 50 percent health. To grant THEM 1548 health recovery.... it only add's 2 percent healing otherwise. So probably not going to do much to top off your health like you see in these duels.
Im not sure about you but.... 1548 health recovery on a friend isnt helping me at all... even say if it was on me have you ever tried a health recovery build? with like beekeeper? I think you should try it
from what i understand you can get your health recovery around 4k or more...
The term "friendly target" or "ally" always includes yourself in ESO.
Sure nerf health recovery...
Nerf the SnB.... "damage"
See the difference it'll make.... which is absolutely nothing.
Tanks will adapt, tanks will change, we will run through all the sets combo's and there are plenty mind you... That give the same outcome.Edited by AddictionX on January 23, 2018 3:30AM0 -
AddictionX✭✭✭✭Lets think practically: from what I've gathered the main argument pro-nerf S&B revolves around the damage potential, being it only slightly lower than a 2H or Dual wield setup, and yet gaining access to defensive mechanisms like 3% passive damage mitigation + 60% on demand damage mitigation from blocking.
I'm sorry, but that argument is just not accurate enough.
No class is able to permablock unless you're completely built for tanking, which at that point you've got no damage. Therefore, there's no 'on demand' damge mitigation as blocking costs a metric ton of stamina for your average player. I saw arguments in this post claiming that NBs are running S&B to permablock - that is simply not true. NBs can't viably block to the point where you can say they have an on demand 60% damage mitigation from S&B. S&B is used for utility skills, be it reverb for major defile or slash for heroism.
There's no benefit to running 2h or DW? Rally is such a big burst heal that it can be compared to the whole damage mitigation you gain from blocking (and just a reminder, from your casual blocking, as stated before your average player can't permablock), forward momentum makes you immune to snares etc....
And I swear I'm trying to be the least biased as possible, cause at the end of the day I do use S&B, but S&B is not overperforming imo, as regular builds can't take advantage of that 60% 'on demand mitigation'.
Survivability is aquired through other means like sets, skills and movement around Cyrodiil.WillhelmBlack wrote: »Shield stacking is worse imo. It's infinite and nothing ignores them except Oblivion damage which can easily be out healed by most classes. Even bleed damage applies to shields and apparently can be purged, like seriously WT actual F.
I don't have much problems killing traditional 'tank' players, especially with 3-4 people in my group. If they are a dedicated tank, it takes a little communication to time the burst obviously because you won't drain their resources.
Disclaimer: All my builds are pretty much dedicated to cutting through armour, completely ignoring it or draining stamina.
This means it's not necessarily a l2p issue for everyone else, it's just something I personally noticed after returning to the game that our group had trouble with tanks. We all still struggle with shield stacking, duration nerf didn't solve anything. I doubt block cost glyph nerf will do anything either, I think it's more to do with how much mitigation types there are, CP and debuffs included.
I know i already used this but these men(or women) knows!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk Edited by AddictionX on January 23, 2018 3:13AM0 -
glavius✭✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Blocking mechanic, S&B and Resto Ulti and Sets like Wizard Riposte, Pirate Skeleton, Seventh Legion and many others are a huge problem.
It just makes no sense whatsoever to have more outgoing damage on a S&B tank setup compared to a 2H/bow setup, which is currently the case. Reducing the damage of those tanky setups will most likely create a shift towards more offensive builds?
Thats why all your PvE stam DDs run s&b now in their raids, right? Or have you suddenly become a PvP expert? The only time I ever see you in PvP is running around in bigsize pug herds, desperately crit charging the heck out of any soloer you come across.
You just lost all your credibility here.
PvE is all about stacking the best damage per second, that's mean a DD need to to have everything into damage. Theze damage are mostly ground based, and DoTs. Theze ground based & Dots damage aren't in S&B line, that's why you don't use it for doing damage. And you don't use S&B for being tanky as a DD because the mechanics of PvE are made around placement and around a dedicated healer that heal you.
If don't understand why PvE meta is different than PvP meta, then you have nothing to do here.
@DDuke is right on this topic and explained why S&B is overperforming clearly.
I will add that S&B, with light attack/Heroic slash/bash cut animed can make a huge amount of damage because of the bash added in a minimum of time because the bash cut anim.
S&B damage need to go. It's the first step, the best and easiest way to balance the game actually.
Why in dual wield the off hand sword has 237 base weapon damage in gold quality and the one hand sword in S&B has 1335 weapon damage in the same quality ?
In 1&S, the shield is staring, the the 1h. 1h&S should have significantly less damage than any DPS weapon.
I will ignore your hostile blabbering and focus on the more factual input.
The difference between s&b and dw on my stamsorc setup selfbuffed including nirn mainhand weapons and major wpn dmg buff is 600 wpn dmg before all other wpn dmg procs/buffs. That mounts up (fully buffed) to a very significant dawnbreaker tooltip gap in the ballpark of several thousand dmg done (even more when critting). Add the infused wpn dmg proc on top of that through offhand dw enchant + increased uptime compared to nirn traited wpn dmg enchand on s&b.
That's just not really accurate though.
Comparing DW & S&B with 2x Troll King 5x Legion 5xTruth:
Buffs: Major Brutality, WpnDmg Enchant, Minor Force (Rearming Trap), Off Balance
Total DmgDone Modifier: 46% (13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
Crit Modifier: 70%
S&B DBOS: 20 206/2(Battle Spirit)=10 103+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 175
DW DBOS: 20 523/2(Battle Spirit)=10 261+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 444
That's a difference of 269 damage (before any mitigation or defensive CPs get applied), not "several thousand". You can add all the other skills of your burst combo and in the end I promise you the difference won't be more than 500 at most.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »My total buffed wpn damage difference going from s&b to dw within the same setup is about 1k wpn damage according to omnistats. I will verify exactly when the game is back up.
The difference in weapon dmg with abovementioned setup is 226 (5484 DW vs 5258 S&B), what makes you think your build will have 1k difference?
Also, keep in mind that flat weapon dmg buffs (i.e. weapon dmg enchant, set procs etc) get more value when you have S&B equipped (due to the S&B 5% weapon dmg passive).Mojomonkeyman wrote: »You can't kill anything with s&b alone right now unless significatly outplaying/outgearing the opponent. Additionally, it is the mechanically most demanding offensive setup in the game. You simply have to do more clicks in well sequenced manner to do damage. You have to go for low regen to get all the damage you can get in order to boost the pitiful s&b output to levels, where you can actually take off some HP from your opponents, means you have to heavy attack weave a lot (= no perma block) to not run dry.
"can't kill anything with s&B alone", is that why S&B builds have won all the recent dueling tournaments?
Also, "having to do more clicks" is bs, you do the exact same amount of clicks as any other build (only you've got RMB to hide behind should it look like you have any chance of dying during the fight).
Low regen part is factual though, but it's not like you need regen in duels with S&B slotted.
Open world is another story (and that's one reason why you see a lot more 2H and even DW or Bow builds there).
You keep posting the correct reason why sword/shield heavy armor users having such high damage, but you instead blame the weapon type they wear for bulk instead of the sets right in front your eyes boosting their damage sky high!
The Seventh Legion/Fury/Troll King combination is the biggest culprit in how heavy armor stamina players can stack into bulk while getting a free source of constant healing (Troll King and Seventh) and damage buffs (Seventh and Fury).
These players can't kill you with shield bashes alone or anything like that, they're relying on the raw Weapon Damage gained from Seventh Legion and Fury constantly being active.
Blame the sets, not the weapon types. These sets overperform no matter what type of weapon you choose to slot.
Applying stricter cooldowns or proc conditions to these sets would solve this issue altogether.
As it stands currently, none of these sets have cooldowns; not Fury, nor Seventh, nor Troll King.
I wish it was just a set problem, but as I've stated multiple times the damage difference between S&B and DW or 2H is minimal, regardless of what sets you wear.
Tell me your setup (Hundings, Spriggan, Bone Pirate... doesn't matter) & I'll tell you exactly how miniscule the dmg difference is for individual skills & for the whole burst combo.
The damage difference is quite noticable in some setups. Dual wield in my case has the following: 2.5% damage from 1 sword. 3%-5% bleed damage from one axe. Quite abit of extra weapon damage from using nirnhoned main bar weapon with weapon damage enchant, while still having a ton of procs from infused offhand with damage glyph.
Meanwhile, 1h/shield has 1 extra enchant worth of stamina, 5% weapon damage, but only 1 weapon enchant (that does proc slightly more often, 1 proc per 2 weaves compared to 1 proc per 2,5 to 3 weaves for dual wield)
It is hard to calculate the exact damage difference though, because of the way dual wield enchants work. But it is quite noticeable
Link to builds to save you the time of calculating:
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
And remember, the values shown here are without the weapon damage enchant procced for the dual wield setup.
Your comparison is between Infused S&B & Nirnhoned DW, change the S&B to Nirnhoned like the DW & damage difference becomes minimal again.
Also, here's what Weapon Dmg Enchant gives you when you're on DW: 452+20%(Major Brutality)=542
...and here's what you get on S&B: 452+[20(Major Brutality)+5%(S&B Passive)]=565
Made a new comparison with nirnhoned on both setups (though that will give even less damage on the s/b setup)
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
7% more damage from the difference in stats alone. On top of that about 4% damage from axe bleed. And 8% damage from offhand disease enchant.
And yes the mainhand weapon damage glyph on the S/B setup gives 0,5% more damage but only 50% uptime=0,25% more damage from that on average.
Net total: 18,75% damage increase from the dw setup.
And yes I realise this increase is less on CP campaign, where stamina matters more (+20% increase from CP on the shield enchant), and on a very high weapon damage build, the difference will also be less.
But dual wield definitely has a huge advantage over S/B if you look at the damage.Edited by glavius on January 23, 2018 7:22AM2 -
Mr_Gallows✭✭✭When you have a PvP system with instant heals stacking combined with heal over time damage shields and high damage mitigation, there is no easy way to balance it.
PvP of ESO is so far away from anything that resembles elder scrolls in any way. You have these characters flashing around with inhuman speeds, like maniacs on crack. The only way to fix it, would be to first slow the game down. This means healing can be slowed down, dodging and blocking can be a requirement for full mitigation.
1. Healing: You should only be able to benefit from one HoT at a time. When you are healed by an instant healing skill, your health is on cooldown for a bit of time, where you can no longer benefit from instant heals (or reduced effectiveness). Getting heals under control is important.
2. Damage shields: All damage shields should reduce your damage output significantly. Second, there should be a hard limit on shield stacking. Shield are bad for gameplay - really bad.
3. Slow down the run speed of the game - it's silly and looks absolutely stupid.
4. Find a better balance between mitigation and damage output. At the moment you can do both. Remove penetration from the game and balance mitigation around this new reality, which will be easier.
5. CP and PvP do not work and never will. Remove CP from PvP completely and let it be a PvE thing.
The general issue with ESO is STACKING leading to imbalance.
Then balance the game, so health doesn't jump up and down like ping-pong even in small engagements. PvP currently is just a chaotic mess where ZM are trying to juggle the chaos. ESO has no cooldowns and while this is cool, it also presents a problem for balance.
When you can fire off several skills almost as quick as you can press the buttons, it's an issue. Many attack skills have almost no windup, cast etc. All skills should have a cast time like heavy and light attacks, but not all should be interruptable.
Then of course fix the buggy mess of animation cancelling and other weird stuff, that only makes the issues worse.
I think combal and fighting would actually be more fun, tactical and balanced if all we had were light and heavy attacks vs block and dodge. Limited healing, no damage shields. Reduce run speed A LOT. Then from that foundation build a game. So the game is not going to be fixed, because it would require a complete revamp.
Just look at GW2 - a fairly fast paced game, but still when you play that, it's a hell of a lot more controlled than ESO. Also for small scale PvP, they have absolute balance of gear with people picking different setups (tanky, DoT damage, Burst etc.). ESO is simply just completely out of control. The current CP system is on for PvE and they could keep that. I do believe slowing the game down would be a good idea generally. For PvP, just drop all CP completely.
The best ZM could do was to keep gear for PvE and then use the same system as GW2. Make a number of PvP class specific gems, that determine all your stats. The only thing you will get from your own gear is set effects. and bonuses. Your build will then be the weapon type you use, skills on your bar and bonuses from your passives.
PvP should be more about playing it than tweaking it.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Blocking mechanic, S&B and Resto Ulti and Sets like Wizard Riposte, Pirate Skeleton, Seventh Legion and many others are a huge problem.
It just makes no sense whatsoever to have more outgoing damage on a S&B tank setup compared to a 2H/bow setup, which is currently the case. Reducing the damage of those tanky setups will most likely create a shift towards more offensive builds?
Thats why all your PvE stam DDs run s&b now in their raids, right? Or have you suddenly become a PvP expert? The only time I ever see you in PvP is running around in bigsize pug herds, desperately crit charging the heck out of any soloer you come across.
You just lost all your credibility here.
PvE is all about stacking the best damage per second, that's mean a DD need to to have everything into damage. Theze damage are mostly ground based, and DoTs. Theze ground based & Dots damage aren't in S&B line, that's why you don't use it for doing damage. And you don't use S&B for being tanky as a DD because the mechanics of PvE are made around placement and around a dedicated healer that heal you.
If don't understand why PvE meta is different than PvP meta, then you have nothing to do here.
@DDuke is right on this topic and explained why S&B is overperforming clearly.
I will add that S&B, with light attack/Heroic slash/bash cut animed can make a huge amount of damage because of the bash added in a minimum of time because the bash cut anim.
S&B damage need to go. It's the first step, the best and easiest way to balance the game actually.
Why in dual wield the off hand sword has 237 base weapon damage in gold quality and the one hand sword in S&B has 1335 weapon damage in the same quality ?
In 1&S, the shield is staring, the the 1h. 1h&S should have significantly less damage than any DPS weapon.
I will ignore your hostile blabbering and focus on the more factual input.
The difference between s&b and dw on my stamsorc setup selfbuffed including nirn mainhand weapons and major wpn dmg buff is 600 wpn dmg before all other wpn dmg procs/buffs. That mounts up (fully buffed) to a very significant dawnbreaker tooltip gap in the ballpark of several thousand dmg done (even more when critting). Add the infused wpn dmg proc on top of that through offhand dw enchant + increased uptime compared to nirn traited wpn dmg enchand on s&b.
That's just not really accurate though.
Comparing DW & S&B with 2x Troll King 5x Legion 5xTruth:
Buffs: Major Brutality, WpnDmg Enchant, Minor Force (Rearming Trap), Off Balance
Total DmgDone Modifier: 46% (13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
Crit Modifier: 70%
S&B DBOS: 20 206/2(Battle Spirit)=10 103+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 175
DW DBOS: 20 523/2(Battle Spirit)=10 261+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 444
That's a difference of 269 damage (before any mitigation or defensive CPs get applied), not "several thousand". You can add all the other skills of your burst combo and in the end I promise you the difference won't be more than 500 at most.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »My total buffed wpn damage difference going from s&b to dw within the same setup is about 1k wpn damage according to omnistats. I will verify exactly when the game is back up.
The difference in weapon dmg with abovementioned setup is 226 (5484 DW vs 5258 S&B), what makes you think your build will have 1k difference?
Also, keep in mind that flat weapon dmg buffs (i.e. weapon dmg enchant, set procs etc) get more value when you have S&B equipped (due to the S&B 5% weapon dmg passive).Mojomonkeyman wrote: »You can't kill anything with s&b alone right now unless significatly outplaying/outgearing the opponent. Additionally, it is the mechanically most demanding offensive setup in the game. You simply have to do more clicks in well sequenced manner to do damage. You have to go for low regen to get all the damage you can get in order to boost the pitiful s&b output to levels, where you can actually take off some HP from your opponents, means you have to heavy attack weave a lot (= no perma block) to not run dry.
"can't kill anything with s&B alone", is that why S&B builds have won all the recent dueling tournaments?
Also, "having to do more clicks" is bs, you do the exact same amount of clicks as any other build (only you've got RMB to hide behind should it look like you have any chance of dying during the fight).
Low regen part is factual though, but it's not like you need regen in duels with S&B slotted.
Open world is another story (and that's one reason why you see a lot more 2H and even DW or Bow builds there).
You keep posting the correct reason why sword/shield heavy armor users having such high damage, but you instead blame the weapon type they wear for bulk instead of the sets right in front your eyes boosting their damage sky high!
The Seventh Legion/Fury/Troll King combination is the biggest culprit in how heavy armor stamina players can stack into bulk while getting a free source of constant healing (Troll King and Seventh) and damage buffs (Seventh and Fury).
These players can't kill you with shield bashes alone or anything like that, they're relying on the raw Weapon Damage gained from Seventh Legion and Fury constantly being active.
Blame the sets, not the weapon types. These sets overperform no matter what type of weapon you choose to slot.
Applying stricter cooldowns or proc conditions to these sets would solve this issue altogether.
As it stands currently, none of these sets have cooldowns; not Fury, nor Seventh, nor Troll King.
I wish it was just a set problem, but as I've stated multiple times the damage difference between S&B and DW or 2H is minimal, regardless of what sets you wear.
Tell me your setup (Hundings, Spriggan, Bone Pirate... doesn't matter) & I'll tell you exactly how miniscule the dmg difference is for individual skills & for the whole burst combo.
The damage difference is quite noticable in some setups. Dual wield in my case has the following: 2.5% damage from 1 sword. 3%-5% bleed damage from one axe. Quite abit of extra weapon damage from using nirnhoned main bar weapon with weapon damage enchant, while still having a ton of procs from infused offhand with damage glyph.
Meanwhile, 1h/shield has 1 extra enchant worth of stamina, 5% weapon damage, but only 1 weapon enchant (that does proc slightly more often, 1 proc per 2 weaves compared to 1 proc per 2,5 to 3 weaves for dual wield)
It is hard to calculate the exact damage difference though, because of the way dual wield enchants work. But it is quite noticeable
Link to builds to save you the time of calculating:
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
And remember, the values shown here are without the weapon damage enchant procced for the dual wield setup.
Your comparison is between Infused S&B & Nirnhoned DW, change the S&B to Nirnhoned like the DW & damage difference becomes minimal again.
Also, here's what Weapon Dmg Enchant gives you when you're on DW: 452+20%(Major Brutality)=542
...and here's what you get on S&B: 452+[20(Major Brutality)+5%(S&B Passive)]=565
Made a new comparison with nirnhoned on both setups (though that will give even less damage on the s/b setup)
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
7% more damage from the difference in stats alone. On top of that about 4% damage from axe bleed. And 8% damage from offhand disease enchant.
And yes the mainhand weapon damage glyph on the S/B setup gives 0,5% more damage but only 50% uptime=0,25% more damage from that on average.
Net total: 18,75% damage increase from the dw setup.
And yes I realise this increase is less on CP campaign, where stamina matters more (+20% increase from CP on the shield enchant), and on a very high weapon damage build, the difference will also be less.
But dual wield definitely has a huge advantage over S/B if you look at the damage.
Not really, because a different setup would just get the bleed from off bar. In the end, you're getting 290 more tooltip damage on Incap (before factoring in defensive CPs/mitigation) in PvP with DW (less than 500, as I said). Total burst because of S&B bash will be more or less equal.
I wouldn't bother counting enchants, those won't proc at the same time anyway (only one of them).
One thing that does benefit DW though is regen enchants - weapon dmg ones are worth 208 weapon dmg with DW & 223 with S&B. Something I hadn't considered, but doesn't make a big difference in the end as the burst is still very near identical.Edited by DDuke on January 23, 2018 12:49PM0 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »You're not the only one, OP. Most of my PvP friends quit the game over it and I mostly just do trials nowadays because PvP is so damn dull.
ZOS and a lot of players want it to be easy and that's exactly the problem.
People were crying for a year about how they hated the high burst damage meta, and then with dark brotherhood they made survivability trivial. Add a ton of overperforming new defensive/sustain sets and overperforming temporary godmode ultimates on top of that. Now watching paint dry is more fun than ESO PvP, but hey... people can finally roleplay their heavy armour paladins.
On the other side of the spectrum, some classes got butchered so much and some abilities/mechanics are so messed up right now that for most specs you actually NEED to be a heavy armour tanktard to stand any chance at surviving now. It's a vicious circle and unless they go back and actually seriously think of undoing some of the layers of stupid they slowly added to the game nothing will change.
Just look at the upcoming interrupt immunity. The amount of coddling coming from the devs is mind blowing and people are too focused on specific classes/playstyles to see the change for what it is - more dumbing down.
THIS.
Tbh i try not to sound so pejorative but how long will people go on with these *** threads?
You people keep making threads about imbalance etc etc but just tell me once that they have made things better (overall)?
If one has problems perceiving patterns, i can do it for you:
They dumb down everything in order to sell to a wider audience in order to gain money.
They wont give anything of what you experienced players want because it will be (in zos's mind) detrimental to their investment.
Yeah, the writing's on the wall. The devs will never admit it though.
The game is now filled with sets and armour that borderline play the game for the player and abilities that have almost every counter patched out of the game.
And what will the next update add for PvP? Oh, interrupt immunity and a new monster set that can literally kill for you so long as youre "skilled" enough to stay next to your target.
Well, I stopped caring a long time ago. Obviously other people still enjoy this mess somehow.1 -
glavius✭✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Blocking mechanic, S&B and Resto Ulti and Sets like Wizard Riposte, Pirate Skeleton, Seventh Legion and many others are a huge problem.
It just makes no sense whatsoever to have more outgoing damage on a S&B tank setup compared to a 2H/bow setup, which is currently the case. Reducing the damage of those tanky setups will most likely create a shift towards more offensive builds?
Thats why all your PvE stam DDs run s&b now in their raids, right? Or have you suddenly become a PvP expert? The only time I ever see you in PvP is running around in bigsize pug herds, desperately crit charging the heck out of any soloer you come across.
You just lost all your credibility here.
PvE is all about stacking the best damage per second, that's mean a DD need to to have everything into damage. Theze damage are mostly ground based, and DoTs. Theze ground based & Dots damage aren't in S&B line, that's why you don't use it for doing damage. And you don't use S&B for being tanky as a DD because the mechanics of PvE are made around placement and around a dedicated healer that heal you.
If don't understand why PvE meta is different than PvP meta, then you have nothing to do here.
@DDuke is right on this topic and explained why S&B is overperforming clearly.
I will add that S&B, with light attack/Heroic slash/bash cut animed can make a huge amount of damage because of the bash added in a minimum of time because the bash cut anim.
S&B damage need to go. It's the first step, the best and easiest way to balance the game actually.
Why in dual wield the off hand sword has 237 base weapon damage in gold quality and the one hand sword in S&B has 1335 weapon damage in the same quality ?
In 1&S, the shield is staring, the the 1h. 1h&S should have significantly less damage than any DPS weapon.
I will ignore your hostile blabbering and focus on the more factual input.
The difference between s&b and dw on my stamsorc setup selfbuffed including nirn mainhand weapons and major wpn dmg buff is 600 wpn dmg before all other wpn dmg procs/buffs. That mounts up (fully buffed) to a very significant dawnbreaker tooltip gap in the ballpark of several thousand dmg done (even more when critting). Add the infused wpn dmg proc on top of that through offhand dw enchant + increased uptime compared to nirn traited wpn dmg enchand on s&b.
That's just not really accurate though.
Comparing DW & S&B with 2x Troll King 5x Legion 5xTruth:
Buffs: Major Brutality, WpnDmg Enchant, Minor Force (Rearming Trap), Off Balance
Total DmgDone Modifier: 46% (13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
Crit Modifier: 70%
S&B DBOS: 20 206/2(Battle Spirit)=10 103+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 175
DW DBOS: 20 523/2(Battle Spirit)=10 261+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 444
That's a difference of 269 damage (before any mitigation or defensive CPs get applied), not "several thousand". You can add all the other skills of your burst combo and in the end I promise you the difference won't be more than 500 at most.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »My total buffed wpn damage difference going from s&b to dw within the same setup is about 1k wpn damage according to omnistats. I will verify exactly when the game is back up.
The difference in weapon dmg with abovementioned setup is 226 (5484 DW vs 5258 S&B), what makes you think your build will have 1k difference?
Also, keep in mind that flat weapon dmg buffs (i.e. weapon dmg enchant, set procs etc) get more value when you have S&B equipped (due to the S&B 5% weapon dmg passive).Mojomonkeyman wrote: »You can't kill anything with s&b alone right now unless significatly outplaying/outgearing the opponent. Additionally, it is the mechanically most demanding offensive setup in the game. You simply have to do more clicks in well sequenced manner to do damage. You have to go for low regen to get all the damage you can get in order to boost the pitiful s&b output to levels, where you can actually take off some HP from your opponents, means you have to heavy attack weave a lot (= no perma block) to not run dry.
"can't kill anything with s&B alone", is that why S&B builds have won all the recent dueling tournaments?
Also, "having to do more clicks" is bs, you do the exact same amount of clicks as any other build (only you've got RMB to hide behind should it look like you have any chance of dying during the fight).
Low regen part is factual though, but it's not like you need regen in duels with S&B slotted.
Open world is another story (and that's one reason why you see a lot more 2H and even DW or Bow builds there).
You keep posting the correct reason why sword/shield heavy armor users having such high damage, but you instead blame the weapon type they wear for bulk instead of the sets right in front your eyes boosting their damage sky high!
The Seventh Legion/Fury/Troll King combination is the biggest culprit in how heavy armor stamina players can stack into bulk while getting a free source of constant healing (Troll King and Seventh) and damage buffs (Seventh and Fury).
These players can't kill you with shield bashes alone or anything like that, they're relying on the raw Weapon Damage gained from Seventh Legion and Fury constantly being active.
Blame the sets, not the weapon types. These sets overperform no matter what type of weapon you choose to slot.
Applying stricter cooldowns or proc conditions to these sets would solve this issue altogether.
As it stands currently, none of these sets have cooldowns; not Fury, nor Seventh, nor Troll King.
I wish it was just a set problem, but as I've stated multiple times the damage difference between S&B and DW or 2H is minimal, regardless of what sets you wear.
Tell me your setup (Hundings, Spriggan, Bone Pirate... doesn't matter) & I'll tell you exactly how miniscule the dmg difference is for individual skills & for the whole burst combo.
The damage difference is quite noticable in some setups. Dual wield in my case has the following: 2.5% damage from 1 sword. 3%-5% bleed damage from one axe. Quite abit of extra weapon damage from using nirnhoned main bar weapon with weapon damage enchant, while still having a ton of procs from infused offhand with damage glyph.
Meanwhile, 1h/shield has 1 extra enchant worth of stamina, 5% weapon damage, but only 1 weapon enchant (that does proc slightly more often, 1 proc per 2 weaves compared to 1 proc per 2,5 to 3 weaves for dual wield)
It is hard to calculate the exact damage difference though, because of the way dual wield enchants work. But it is quite noticeable
Link to builds to save you the time of calculating:
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
And remember, the values shown here are without the weapon damage enchant procced for the dual wield setup.
Your comparison is between Infused S&B & Nirnhoned DW, change the S&B to Nirnhoned like the DW & damage difference becomes minimal again.
Also, here's what Weapon Dmg Enchant gives you when you're on DW: 452+20%(Major Brutality)=542
...and here's what you get on S&B: 452+[20(Major Brutality)+5%(S&B Passive)]=565
Made a new comparison with nirnhoned on both setups (though that will give even less damage on the s/b setup)
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
7% more damage from the difference in stats alone. On top of that about 4% damage from axe bleed. And 8% damage from offhand disease enchant.
And yes the mainhand weapon damage glyph on the S/B setup gives 0,5% more damage but only 50% uptime=0,25% more damage from that on average.
Net total: 18,75% damage increase from the dw setup.
And yes I realise this increase is less on CP campaign, where stamina matters more (+20% increase from CP on the shield enchant), and on a very high weapon damage build, the difference will also be less.
But dual wield definitely has a huge advantage over S/B if you look at the damage.
Not really, because a different setup would just get the bleed from off bar. In the end, you're getting 290 more tooltip damage on Incap (before factoring in defensive CPs/mitigation) in PvP with DW (less than 500, as I said). Total burst because of S&B bash will be more or less equal.
I wouldn't bother counting enchants, those won't proc at the same time anyway (only one of them).
One thing that does benefit DW though is regen enchants - weapon dmg ones are worth 208 weapon dmg with DW & 223 with S&B. Something I hadn't considered, but doesn't make a big difference in the end as the burst is still very near identical.
Sorry but you are just wrong in many ways. I get bleed from off bar also (2h). Which stacks with DW bleed. Also the bleed you get from off bar will in many cases be far less since you have less chances to proc it.
Why will you not count an enchant from offhand. It does huge damage, and procs alot. (like i mentioned before around 8% of my total damage comes from the offhand enchant).
Also, while bash gives abit of extra burst, it does come at quite a huge cost. 1133 stamina extra per weave means you need to have quite abit higher stamina sustain than a similar DW build not using bash. And my DW build has about 600 more tooltip on Incap btw. this is without any cp.
I'm not saying S/B isn't good for some builds. It clearly is. But it is definitely quite well balanced, atleast on no CP.Edited by glavius on January 23, 2018 7:56PM0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I always wondered what would be the state of the game if they removed all the class skills and just had TES stuff.
Where light, medium and heavy attacks were how we did combat and enchants and what we call skills now, were merged together on weapons and armor.
Anyways....change is change.....OH yeah its an update so..... (insert OK...SOS)-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drakkdjinn wrote: »Drakkdjinn wrote: »Remove CP from PvP - voila, sorted.
Found the procctato.
Found the:
Permablocker
Shieldspammer
Shieldstacker
Dodgeroll Spammer
One-button heal-hero
Instagib Ganker
[Insert further cheese playstyle not possible without CP here]
Meanwhile, the Drakk has no proc sets equipped. Try again.
So you don´t use any active defense? Sounds reasonable. But quite frankly said: I don´t believe you.
Not a claim I made, but spam roll dodge out of this discussion if you must.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FlamingBeard wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Blocking mechanic, S&B and Resto Ulti and Sets like Wizard Riposte, Pirate Skeleton, Seventh Legion and many others are a huge problem.
It just makes no sense whatsoever to have more outgoing damage on a S&B tank setup compared to a 2H/bow setup, which is currently the case. Reducing the damage of those tanky setups will most likely create a shift towards more offensive builds?
Thats why all your PvE stam DDs run s&b now in their raids, right? Or have you suddenly become a PvP expert? The only time I ever see you in PvP is running around in bigsize pug herds, desperately crit charging the heck out of any soloer you come across.
You just lost all your credibility here.
PvE is all about stacking the best damage per second, that's mean a DD need to to have everything into damage. Theze damage are mostly ground based, and DoTs. Theze ground based & Dots damage aren't in S&B line, that's why you don't use it for doing damage. And you don't use S&B for being tanky as a DD because the mechanics of PvE are made around placement and around a dedicated healer that heal you.
If don't understand why PvE meta is different than PvP meta, then you have nothing to do here.
@DDuke is right on this topic and explained why S&B is overperforming clearly.
I will add that S&B, with light attack/Heroic slash/bash cut animed can make a huge amount of damage because of the bash added in a minimum of time because the bash cut anim.
S&B damage need to go. It's the first step, the best and easiest way to balance the game actually.
Why in dual wield the off hand sword has 237 base weapon damage in gold quality and the one hand sword in S&B has 1335 weapon damage in the same quality ?
In 1&S, the shield is staring, the the 1h. 1h&S should have significantly less damage than any DPS weapon.
I will ignore your hostile blabbering and focus on the more factual input.
The difference between s&b and dw on my stamsorc setup selfbuffed including nirn mainhand weapons and major wpn dmg buff is 600 wpn dmg before all other wpn dmg procs/buffs. That mounts up (fully buffed) to a very significant dawnbreaker tooltip gap in the ballpark of several thousand dmg done (even more when critting). Add the infused wpn dmg proc on top of that through offhand dw enchant + increased uptime compared to nirn traited wpn dmg enchand on s&b.
That's just not really accurate though.
Comparing DW & S&B with 2x Troll King 5x Legion 5xTruth:
Buffs: Major Brutality, WpnDmg Enchant, Minor Force (Rearming Trap), Off Balance
Total DmgDone Modifier: 46% (13% Mighty+23% Master-at-Arms+10% Off Balance)
Crit Modifier: 70%
S&B DBOS: 20 206/2(Battle Spirit)=10 103+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 175
DW DBOS: 20 523/2(Battle Spirit)=10 261+70%(Crit Modifier)=17 444
That's a difference of 269 damage (before any mitigation or defensive CPs get applied), not "several thousand". You can add all the other skills of your burst combo and in the end I promise you the difference won't be more than 500 at most.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »My total buffed wpn damage difference going from s&b to dw within the same setup is about 1k wpn damage according to omnistats. I will verify exactly when the game is back up.
The difference in weapon dmg with abovementioned setup is 226 (5484 DW vs 5258 S&B), what makes you think your build will have 1k difference?
Also, keep in mind that flat weapon dmg buffs (i.e. weapon dmg enchant, set procs etc) get more value when you have S&B equipped (due to the S&B 5% weapon dmg passive).Mojomonkeyman wrote: »You can't kill anything with s&b alone right now unless significatly outplaying/outgearing the opponent. Additionally, it is the mechanically most demanding offensive setup in the game. You simply have to do more clicks in well sequenced manner to do damage. You have to go for low regen to get all the damage you can get in order to boost the pitiful s&b output to levels, where you can actually take off some HP from your opponents, means you have to heavy attack weave a lot (= no perma block) to not run dry.
"can't kill anything with s&B alone", is that why S&B builds have won all the recent dueling tournaments?
Also, "having to do more clicks" is bs, you do the exact same amount of clicks as any other build (only you've got RMB to hide behind should it look like you have any chance of dying during the fight).
Low regen part is factual though, but it's not like you need regen in duels with S&B slotted.
Open world is another story (and that's one reason why you see a lot more 2H and even DW or Bow builds there).
You keep posting the correct reason why sword/shield heavy armor users having such high damage, but you instead blame the weapon type they wear for bulk instead of the sets right in front your eyes boosting their damage sky high!
The Seventh Legion/Fury/Troll King combination is the biggest culprit in how heavy armor stamina players can stack into bulk while getting a free source of constant healing (Troll King and Seventh) and damage buffs (Seventh and Fury).
These players can't kill you with shield bashes alone or anything like that, they're relying on the raw Weapon Damage gained from Seventh Legion and Fury constantly being active.
Blame the sets, not the weapon types. These sets overperform no matter what type of weapon you choose to slot.
Applying stricter cooldowns or proc conditions to these sets would solve this issue altogether.
As it stands currently, none of these sets have cooldowns; not Fury, nor Seventh, nor Troll King.
I wish it was just a set problem, but as I've stated multiple times the damage difference between S&B and DW or 2H is minimal, regardless of what sets you wear.
Tell me your setup (Hundings, Spriggan, Bone Pirate... doesn't matter) & I'll tell you exactly how miniscule the dmg difference is for individual skills & for the whole burst combo.
The damage difference is quite noticable in some setups. Dual wield in my case has the following: 2.5% damage from 1 sword. 3%-5% bleed damage from one axe. Quite abit of extra weapon damage from using nirnhoned main bar weapon with weapon damage enchant, while still having a ton of procs from infused offhand with damage glyph.
Meanwhile, 1h/shield has 1 extra enchant worth of stamina, 5% weapon damage, but only 1 weapon enchant (that does proc slightly more often, 1 proc per 2 weaves compared to 1 proc per 2,5 to 3 weaves for dual wield)
It is hard to calculate the exact damage difference though, because of the way dual wield enchants work. But it is quite noticeable
Link to builds to save you the time of calculating:
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
And remember, the values shown here are without the weapon damage enchant procced for the dual wield setup.
Your comparison is between Infused S&B & Nirnhoned DW, change the S&B to Nirnhoned like the DW & damage difference becomes minimal again.
Also, here's what Weapon Dmg Enchant gives you when you're on DW: 452+20%(Major Brutality)=542
...and here's what you get on S&B: 452+[20(Major Brutality)+5%(S&B Passive)]=565
Made a new comparison with nirnhoned on both setups (though that will give even less damage on the s/b setup)
DW: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=31116
S/B: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=42445
7% more damage from the difference in stats alone. On top of that about 4% damage from axe bleed. And 8% damage from offhand disease enchant.
And yes the mainhand weapon damage glyph on the S/B setup gives 0,5% more damage but only 50% uptime=0,25% more damage from that on average.
Net total: 18,75% damage increase from the dw setup.
And yes I realise this increase is less on CP campaign, where stamina matters more (+20% increase from CP on the shield enchant), and on a very high weapon damage build, the difference will also be less.
But dual wield definitely has a huge advantage over S/B if you look at the damage.
Not really, because a different setup would just get the bleed from off bar. In the end, you're getting 290 more tooltip damage on Incap (before factoring in defensive CPs/mitigation) in PvP with DW (less than 500, as I said). Total burst because of S&B bash will be more or less equal.
I wouldn't bother counting enchants, those won't proc at the same time anyway (only one of them).
One thing that does benefit DW though is regen enchants - weapon dmg ones are worth 208 weapon dmg with DW & 223 with S&B. Something I hadn't considered, but doesn't make a big difference in the end as the burst is still very near identical.
Sorry but you are just wrong in many ways. I get bleed from off bar also (2h). Which stacks with DW bleed. Also the bleed you get from off bar will in many cases be far less since you have less chances to proc it.
Why will you not count an enchant from offhand. It does huge damage, and procs alot. (like i mentioned before around 8% of my total damage comes from the offhand enchant).
Also, while bash gives abit of extra burst, it does come at quite a huge cost. 881 stamina extra per weave means you need to have quite abit higher stamina sustain than a similar DW build not using bash. And my DW build has about 600 more tooltip on Incap btw. this is without any cp.
I'm not saying S/B isn't good for some builds. It clearly is. But it is definitely quite well balanced, atleast on no CP.
So you're not running S&B even on off bar?
Forgive me, but I don't think such a build can live very long, especially with just 2k'ish weapon dmg.
Troll King sure helps, but you need something like Legion to go along with that to survive even a 1v1 against a high dmg build with undodgeable dmg and gap closer/cloak breaker. S&B just guarantees you can survive.0 -
glavius✭✭✭✭✭DW+2H. And it's the strongest build I've ever had. Both for 1 v. 1 and 1 v. X. I do not really need to use cloak 1 v. 1.0
