Gold cost for outfitting must go

Elsonso · January 2018

Nihility42 wrote: »

How else do you expect them to keep releasing content? The game is buy to pay, which probably hardly brings in any revenue with the game being on sale for 10 bucks or less most of the time. Games are extremely expensive to make and maintain, DLCs, expansions, and ESO+ won't sustain it on their own. If you want the amount of content that we currently get to continue, the cash shop is a necessary "evil." The way ZOS does it is extremely unintrusive and doesn't affect actual gameplay in any meaningful way.

You make it sound like they have to send their employees out every day to tin cup outside the local Starbucks.

kookster wrote: »

I think the cost for dying should be removed since dying anything was free to begin with I think it should stay that way. The cost for equipping new styles I think is ok I guess, though I think it would make more sense to use the styling material and not gold, this will equate into costing more since some style materials are costly/rare, and this would also bring possible revenue to the company since it will allow the use of the crown mimic stones.

I really don't have a problem with them charging gold, or Crown baubles, for each slot to create an outfit, or change the style of an existing outfit. We should be able to dye it for free, unlimited times. This is just the way it is. I don't see a reason to change that, now.

I also think they should require a style material to make an outfit using the associated style, the same way that it is required at crafting stations. I am good with requiring the style material (or Mimic Stone) and also charging gold (or bauble) per slot to make or change the outfit. It is too late to do this, but I would like to know what it was that made them decide not to do it this way.

Vapirko · January 2018

They’ve said they might alter the costs prior to it going live, so if you continue to bring valid opinions on the matter then you might see a response. I’m less concerned about cost (and at the moment I’m down to 75k gold lol, gotta stop doing builds), and more concerned that it’s difficult to get a full preview of wpns and such without exiting (paying). So long as you can fully view all changes before paying I think the outfits could be soemthing to work towards and not just something you change on a whim.

Nihility42 · January 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

How else do you expect them to keep releasing content? The game is buy to pay, which probably hardly brings in any revenue with the game being on sale for 10 bucks or less most of the time. Games are extremely expensive to make and maintain, DLCs, expansions, and ESO+ won't sustain it on their own. If you want the amount of content that we currently get to continue, the cash shop is a necessary "evil." The way ZOS does it is extremely unintrusive and doesn't affect actual gameplay in any meaningful way.

You make it sound like they have to send their employees out every day to tin cup outside the local Starbucks.

Whereas a lot of other people make it sound like every employee at ZOS is driving a lambo and snorting coke off their desk in between coming up with new ideas to steal players' money. It's a business, they are unobtrusively monetizing content without becoming P2W. I don't see why that is a bad thing. I like the game and want them to makle enough money to support further development.

Recremen · January 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

They’ve said they might alter the costs prior to it going live, so if you continue to bring valid opinions on the matter then you might see a response. I’m less concerned about cost (and at the moment I’m down to 75k gold lol, gotta stop doing builds), and more concerned that it’s difficult to get a full preview of wpns and such without exiting (paying). So long as you can fully view all changes before paying I think the outfits could be soemthing to work towards and not just something you change on a whim.

@Vapirko

You can sheath the weapon using your normal keybind and then turn the character around, hope that helps.

Avran_Sylt · January 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

...If you like changing things up even a little bit, you're paying for it...

People who want to change their look up a lot with the new system have to go so much above and beyond what other players are expected to keep up with...I need to juggle even more expenditures just to fully utilize it? That doesn't seem fair.

So when changing up the style, I was hoping to do fully-fledged new looks... And in my day-to-day activity I like to switch up, at the very least, my dyes for whatever I'm wearing at the time, be it a costume or armor. I was hoping for this system to be a natural continuation of that, a grand aesthetic Renaissance at least for my main character. My other characters are likely to have one, or at most a handful, of standard looks that I won't need to deviate from. Though I do now have a "second main"...who will also need to switch up frequently because I fundamentally play him as the same person.

... Out of curiosity, what would your reaction have been to this system if, per outfit, you simply paid the initial 'cost' for a learned motif style. Swapping between 'crafted' motifs for an Outfit had no additional expense?

@Avran_Sylt

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you elaborate a bit? Do you mean some means of unlocking infinite free changes on a per-outfit slot level? I'm not super clear on the thrust of your proposal.

Also, I'd like to point out, as in my original more-detailed post, that my reaction to this system is still overwhelmingly positive. If nothing changes between now and live it's still an incredible system. But this per-use cost to change outfits and dye them greatly limits its use and hits the people who've been asking for it the hardest.

Mm. Your concern only lies with the price.

Synopsis: Buying parts to an Outfit removes the cost from swapping between them, but not from swapping to a 'new' motif.

Yes, what I'm saying is essentially infinite free changes for a single Outfit, as long as you pay an initial cost for the piece. You may have the motif, but you haven't actually made the piece yet surely. You make that piece first, the initial cost, use it with the Outfit. Making another piece that you haven't made before also has a needed 'creation' cost. But swapping between these two pieces requires no cost, since you already have them, no materials required.

It would be possible to add a general swapping cost at this point, something ESO+ members could ignore, but the value would best be low, static, and universal. (The cost of buying new thread to restitch)

Avran_Sylt · January 2018

-Snip-

Recremen · January 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

...If you like changing things up even a little bit, you're paying for it...

People who want to change their look up a lot with the new system have to go so much above and beyond what other players are expected to keep up with...I need to juggle even more expenditures just to fully utilize it? That doesn't seem fair.

So when changing up the style, I was hoping to do fully-fledged new looks... And in my day-to-day activity I like to switch up, at the very least, my dyes for whatever I'm wearing at the time, be it a costume or armor. I was hoping for this system to be a natural continuation of that, a grand aesthetic Renaissance at least for my main character. My other characters are likely to have one, or at most a handful, of standard looks that I won't need to deviate from. Though I do now have a "second main"...who will also need to switch up frequently because I fundamentally play him as the same person.

... Out of curiosity, what would your reaction have been to this system if, per outfit, you simply paid the initial 'cost' for a learned motif style. Swapping between 'crafted' motifs for an Outfit had no additional expense?

@Avran_Sylt

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you elaborate a bit? Do you mean some means of unlocking infinite free changes on a per-outfit slot level? I'm not super clear on the thrust of your proposal.

Also, I'd like to point out, as in my original more-detailed post, that my reaction to this system is still overwhelmingly positive. If nothing changes between now and live it's still an incredible system. But this per-use cost to change outfits and dye them greatly limits its use and hits the people who've been asking for it the hardest.

Mm. Your concern only lies with the price.

Synopsis: Buying parts to an Outfit removes the cost from swapping between them, but not from swapping to a 'new' motif.

Yes, what I'm saying is essentially infinite free changes for a single Outfit, as long as you pay an initial cost for the piece. You may have the motif, but you haven't actually made the piece yet surely. You make that piece first, the initial cost, use it with the Outfit. Making another piece that you haven't made before also has a needed 'creation' cost. But swapping between these two pieces requires no cost, since you already have them, no materials required.

It would be possible to add a general swapping cost at this point, something ESO+ members could ignore, but the value would best be low, static, and universal. (The cost of buying new thread to restitch)

@Avran_Sylt

While I would think just knowing the motif ought to be enough for this system, your proposal is completely acceptable so long as it's not Second Exorbitant Cost. Like if it remained at the current fee to permanently unlock each style then I could totally live with that, but if it was like 100k to unlock one piece of buoyant armiger then I'd be a bit upset since I already spent so long getting that motif to begin with. Anyway, the reason your proposal is fine is that you're once again bringing it back into the realm of a one-and-done cost, which for me is the end goal here. I just don't want to be nickel and dimed with per-use expenses for being pretty, you ken?

Minyassa · January 2018

Seems a bit unnecessary to me. LOTRO's outfit system doesn't cost to change. They have barber shops that charge to change the toon's hairstyle and such, but it's a pittance, just pocket change.

WuffyCerulei · January 2018

I only think that weapon appearance changes to be reduced and dyeing stuff remain free.

Sandman929 · January 2018

Gold isn't flowing like wine if the only thing you do is log in for a few hours a night and PvP. I get 210 gold per Reward of the Worthy, and a payout at the end of the campaign, and whatever I make selling Reward of the Worth crap from the mail...and that's it.

Taysa · January 2018

I do alright making gold. Just pulled 400k in sales in one week alone, according to my MM statistics. That doesn't count vendored items, direct player to player sales etc. That's not even my highest week on record, either.

However, if the Richie Rich's of Tamriel need gold sinks that badly, they're free to donate their money to me, and ZoS can change this silly feature of theirs to one that makes sense for the majority of the playerbase, not the minority who are sitting on tens of millions of gold.

Win/win.

Avran_Sylt · January 2018

Recremen wrote: »

While I would think just knowing the motif ought to be enough for this system, your proposal is completely acceptable so long as it's not Second Exorbitant Cost. Like if it remained at the current fee to permanently unlock each style then I could totally live with that, but if it was like 100k to unlock one piece of buoyant armiger then I'd be a bit upset since I already spent so long getting that motif to begin with. Anyway, the reason your proposal is fine is that you're once again bringing it back into the realm of a one-and-done cost, which for me is the end goal here. I just don't want to be nickel and dimed with per-use expenses for being pretty, you ken?

Fair enough, but hey, nickle and dime those without ESO+ if they want to play pretty.

starkerealm · January 2018

Nihility42 wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..

I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.

Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.

Not sure how good your financial situation is, but 27k is trivial to you?

Also, before someone asks, no that's not normal. It does seem to be the upper limit of what you can run up in the outfit creator, but Ebonshadow isn't some weird outlier here. There are a bunch of motifs, including Ebony, Glass, the Dark Elf House motifs, Apostle, and the upcoming Worm Cult that are all have that same price.

The irony is, it would cost me 26.5k to make a duplicate of that character's real armor in the outfit system.

starkerealm · January 2018

Okay, you know what would probably make this feel a lot better, at least for me? If there were Voucher and Tel Var stone options to pick up additional slots, and for costume change coupons.

Now, granted, once we see the crown costs, I might feel differently. If extra outfit slots are something like 50 or 100 crowns, then I'd probably splurge on them, as opposed to if they're 500 where I'd probably ignore them for the most part.

Recremen · January 2018

Sandman929 wrote: »

Gold isn't flowing like wine if the only thing you do is log in for a few hours a night and PvP. I get 210 gold per Reward of the Worthy, and a payout at the end of the campaign, and whatever I make selling Reward of the Worth crap from the mail...and that's it.

I mean obviously it's your fault and a l2p issue, and has nothing to do with a fundamentally broken PvP economy. ;-) I know they're trying to get more stuff to buy with AP but it's really not coming fast enough and the longer they put it off the worse it gets.

Avran_Sylt · January 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..

I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.

Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.

Not sure how good your financial situation is, but 27k is trivial to you?

Also, before someone asks, no that's not normal. It does seem to be the upper limit of what you can run up in the outfit creator, but Ebonshadow isn't some weird outlier here. There are a bunch of motifs, including Ebony, Glass, the Dark Elf House motifs, Apostle, and the upcoming Worm Cult that are all have that same price.

The irony is, it would cost me 26.5k to make a duplicate of that character's real armor in the outfit system.

@starkerealm
Hmm, does dyeing a piece to an outfit vary in cost based on the 'rarity price' of it? Would dyeing a 100g piece be the same or more expensive than dyeing a 1000g piece? Or was this from an auto-fill? I've seen some people saying that auto-filling dyes causes there to be a huge gold price increase as compared to just manually placing them.

Bevik · January 2018

Yeah because can't make any money from PvP, Gold jewelleries don't sell for 50-300k...

Recremen · January 2018

Bevik wrote: »

Yeah because can't make any money from PvP, Gold jewelleries don't sell for 50-300k...

@Bevik

They don't actually! :-D At least not on PC NA. You're lucky to find people willing to do an exchange rate even as "high" as 1 gold to 5 AP, and due to market saturation you're lucky to find buyers who haven't already gotten it to begin with. Plus you have to rely on said gold jewelry actually showing up in The Golden. Sometimes it's full of sets nobody wants.

Also, didn't you just make a big point that you were going to leave? Or something? Go shoo to another thread.

Recremen · January 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..

I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.

Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.

Not sure how good your financial situation is, but 27k is trivial to you?

Also, before someone asks, no that's not normal. It does seem to be the upper limit of what you can run up in the outfit creator, but Ebonshadow isn't some weird outlier here. There are a bunch of motifs, including Ebony, Glass, the Dark Elf House motifs, Apostle, and the upcoming Worm Cult that are all have that same price.

The irony is, it would cost me 26.5k to make a duplicate of that character's real armor in the outfit system.

@starkerealm
Hmm, does dyeing a piece to an outfit vary in cost based on the 'rarity price' of it? Would dyeing a 100g piece be the same or more expensive than dyeing a 1000g piece? Or was this from an auto-fill? I've seen some people saying that auto-filling dyes causes there to be a huge gold price increase as compared to just manually placing them.

@Avran_Sylt

Nope, dyeing is a set price (though different for weapons and armor) across all styles.

Bam_Bam · January 2018

ParaNostram wrote: »

Gold sinks are important for mmo economies.

I'm a sink! A broke sink! Please pour all your unwanted gold into me!

Money is not easy to make in this game. Maybe if you dedicate yourself to that but I don't - I have more important things to do. Sadly, this means I'm permanently broke - any gold I get goes towards improving my gear.

Cinbri · January 2018

I spent all gold pool of template on a first day. It kinda more expensive than I expected.

starkerealm · January 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..

I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.

Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.

Not sure how good your financial situation is, but 27k is trivial to you?

Also, before someone asks, no that's not normal. It does seem to be the upper limit of what you can run up in the outfit creator, but Ebonshadow isn't some weird outlier here. There are a bunch of motifs, including Ebony, Glass, the Dark Elf House motifs, Apostle, and the upcoming Worm Cult that are all have that same price.

The irony is, it would cost me 26.5k to make a duplicate of that character's real armor in the outfit system.

@starkerealm
Hmm, does dyeing a piece to an outfit vary in cost based on the 'rarity price' of it? Would dyeing a 100g piece be the same or more expensive than dyeing a 1000g piece? Or was this from an auto-fill? I've seen some people saying that auto-filling dyes causes there to be a huge gold price increase as compared to just manually placing them.

Dying is, off hand, 350 per piece. It doesn't matter if you dye one channel or all of them, it's the same price. Also the dye's rarity doesn't affect anything. Transliminal Violet or Woodsman's Green, it's all the same price. Also, there are still items in the game with 4 dye channels internally, but we can only access 3 of them. (Medium Dark Elf, for example.)

The only thing that scales is the motif. Prices vary based on which slot you're selecting, and the motif you're choosing. This ranges from 100g (it's possible there's some 50g pieces, I'm not sure), up to 6000g for some two handed weapons.

Also worth noting, the pricing is by the motif selected. So, a tier 1 through 5 items will cost the same to select. For example, there are 3 different versions of the Outlaw motif's weapons. You can choose whichever one you want, they're all the same price.

Sandman929 · January 2018

Gold is easy to make if you play the game with any concern about making gold, which I don't. And I accept that, I can't do some of the things that those who play the economy with traders or do lots of dungeons are able to do because I don't play the game to do that.
I just don't think that creating my characters look should require that I do those things to pay the bill. It'll go live however it happens, and I'll work with whatever happens. But the prices I've seen people posting are pretty steep in some cases just to look the way I want.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2018

Recremen wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..

I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.

Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.

Adding new gold sinks is good if you don't have existing ones that work well. Judging by the price of goods on the guild traders, everything is still stable and we aren't seeing any kind of inflation. If anything, we're finding that most goods are falling in price due to an abundance on the market. This is PC NA, of course, idk how other platforms are doing.

That is because people don't seem to understand that this is a new type of gold sink. Your traditional MMO goldsink, as you said, is working fine and as intended.

This new gold sink has a completely different purpose. Right now I have the option of buying certain houses and other items with gold, or I could buy with crowns.

If I blow all my gold playing with the outfit system, I am more likely to purchase things (even potions) with crowns instead of gold.

Good gold sink: Remove excess gold from the economy to reduce deflation, etc.
Bad gold sink: Leave your players impoverished so that they are tempted to buy more items with crowns.

Yes, we can always grind for more gold but that adds on an extra hour of game time where we aren't doing what we actually want in game because we have to make gold we shouldn't have to make if the system wasn't designed to sap us. But then you are paying for time, instead of paying for gold. Which is essentially the same thing.

I fully agree that no further gold sinks are needed. The 1% people with 10 mill gold will always have that no matter what you try. The rest of the players aren't loaded and this system is designed to sap their gold to encourage crown sales.

Jhalin · January 2018

The gold costs are currently too high, and really should be done away with. There is no precedent for per-piece gold costs, nor for dyeing.

What should be done is requiring style materials and maybe refined mats, as if the pieces were actually being crafted. I know I'd feel a lot better about using 10 style mats and some rubedo than I do now being forced to pay 15k gold to use the motifs I already spent time and gold collecting.

Recremen · January 2018

Jhalin wrote: »

The gold costs are currently too high, and really should be done away with. There is no precedent for per-piece gold costs, nor for dyeing.

What should be done is requiring style materials and maybe refined mats, as if the pieces were actually being crafted. I know I'd feel a lot better about using 10 style mats and some rubedo than I do now being forced to pay 15k gold to use the motifs I already spent time and gold collecting.

@Jhalin

Gold is still better than using style materials because you aren't troubled with lugging around extra style mats and aren't subject to market volatility whenever you run out. This is, of course, assuming that you're changing outfits frequently. If you just have one look that you'll keep forever then neither a gold cost nor a style material cost would be very problematic. Gold is just an easier, more general-purpose currency to work with.

That said, it should still just.. not cost anything. They should monetize the extra outfit slots and that's it. We don't need this for a gold sink and they're not likely to successfully monetize the "outfit change tokens". If we've earned the motifs, that should be the end of it.

kookster · January 2018

My thoughts on the new Outfitting system:

Dying should be free, as it currently is on live, and should stay that way even with outfits.
You should be able to scroll while in the preview to zoom in and out on your character, you cant see the top of most 2 handed melee weapons. And I dont want to spend money on something and then find it looks horrible when i can actually see the top.
I think that setting a styled item should not just use gold, but it should either use just the style material and maybe gold as well, depending on your crafting skill level. I think it should cost no gold or very little if you are full level crafter.
With adding style materials to the cost you can add the use of mimic stones, which im sure ZOS would be all for.
I'm honestly impressed with it and really like it, great work.

I think that

Jhalin · January 2018

it's...really not that much of a strain. Even players without a craft bag tend to keep rarer style mats, and racial mats are available at any time for people who don't want to go loot a couple crates for them. There should be some kind of cost to using a purely cosmetic system, and draining off some of the excess style mats wouldn't be particularly punishing to any type of player as long as theyre fairly active in the game.

There's a resource cost for changing the look of your gear right now via crafting, so there is a precedent for material costs. There isn't a precedent for gold costs, but there's no reason this feature has to be free any more than crown store costumes should be free. They're both cosmetic features, with the primary benefit being not looking stupid in BiS gear.

Recremen · January 2018

Jhalin wrote: »

it's...really not that much of a strain. Even players without a craft bag tend to keep rarer style mats, and racial mats are available at any time for people who don't want to go loot a couple crates for them. There should be some kind of cost to using a purely cosmetic system, and draining off some of the excess style mats wouldn't be particularly punishing to any type of player as long as theyre fairly active in the game.

There's a resource cost for changing the look of your gear right now via crafting, so there is a precedent for material costs. There isn't a precedent for gold costs, but there's no reason this feature has to be free any more than crown store costumes should be free. They're both cosmetic features, with the primary benefit being not looking stupid in BiS gear.

@Jhalin

There's already a cost to using a "purely cosmetic" system. You have to get the motifs. That's all that should be needed. Exactly zero other cosmetic system in the game has had a per-use expenditure tied to it, and this should not be different. Nobody is asking for this to be free, we are just acknowledging that we've already paid for the system and the motifs to use the system, just like we already paid for all our snazzy costumes and mounts. We've done enough.

Jhalin · January 2018

Except...it currently has a per use cost. That's what I'm saying. Right now if you want to change how your gear looks, you must use materials to make a piece of equipment in a different style. Why should we not use the same process to create a cosmetic piece of equipment? It's better than a gold cost, and there should be some cost to it the same way there is to crafting.

I know everyone prefers free things, I would love to have all the houses and furniture be free, but I know they're just cosmetic things. Even with storage crates coming, you can use all of them in the free closets houses to the same effect as the 3 million gold house that I'd rather have. Cosmetic upgrades, while nice, are not key to gameplay, so there's nothing wrong with placing some kind of cost on them.