Eh. I would prefer it if there wasn't any gold fee, but ZOS gonna ZOS.
As an aside, I loved how LOTRO's fashion system worked. And Champions Online as well (and I say that as a COH fan)
Nihility42 wrote: »
I don't inflate prices at all. I buy underpriced items and sell them for their actual worth. That isn't any definition of inflation.
You forget or fail to mention that there are thousands and thousands of players making gold without trying. Just by running pledges and vendoring junk, you make several thousand per day. It's not particularly significant individually, but this is millions of new gold coming into the game just by players playing. Add in people thieving, farming gold, farming items to vendor, etc and it's easy to see how there is so much gold in the game, bots aside. Even individually, you should be able to make a decent amount of gold from these passive sources over time just by playing.
And if it's not fast enough, this is a multiplayer game, so try playing with other people and doing some of the trading thing. I promise it's not too scary.
Again, you're being overdramatic. You don't like trading and don't put effort into making gold, so no one else can have gold either I guess?
ParaNostram wrote: »Gold sinks are important for mmo economies.
So before this thread gets derailed into an ethics of econ course I'd like to try to bring it back around to the topic at hand: if people think making gold is easy (which for many, actually, it isn't), how does that affect this system at all? It doesn't change the fundamental arguments against a per-use cost for a cosmetic system, which is something they've never done before. The whole thing sets a bad precedent.
What would you recommend instead? Drop the gold cost and replace with tokens? So you can use Outfits only for Crowns? They gave you a choice. If you can't farm gold that's L2P issue. In this game farming gold is a breeze.
@HeroOfNone
Current Gold Sinks
- Luxury Vendor
- Golden Vendor
- Houses
- Achievement Furniture
- General Furniture
- Crafting/Furniture Recipes
- Master Writ Items
- Motifs
- Gear
- Riding Lessons
- Crafting Materials
The first few are direct gold sinks, the rest are indirect and depend on your level of engagement. For instance, learning all the Master Writ furniture recipes will, for most people, require that they buy master writs from other people, or buy the recipes directly from others who already got all the master writs needed. Some rare few might get lucky on one character and just get a ton of really good master writs so they can afford it all on their own, and some might do master writs on every character on multiple accounts, but that's not the norm. Same idea with motifs. I farm like the dickens, but even I end up buying some missing motifs here and there, especially on ones like Buoyant Armiger, where they were so rare that people were flat out unwilling or unable to trade duplicates around. Some of these are capped (I just finished riding lessons on my last character a couple weeks ago), but most are a continuous expense.
Now as far as impact goes. I like to engage with all of the above systems. I like to do PvE, PvP, crafting, the works. Having a wide breadth of experiences and tools lets me then make better stories for the community when I have time to do content creation. The outfit system has been something I've been begging for/looking forward to for a long time. And not only have they delivered everything I could have asked for, they went above and beyond my desired feature list. This was going to open up a whole new world for making new content, with almost as much potential as the housing system.
Now the potential is still there, but it comes at even greater costs than what I've already invested to get here. Housing is expensive as heck and I've been pouring huge resources into get stuff prepared for more stories. Having to also juggle a per-use expenditure for aesthetic changes really is that much more of a burden. It feels like an average player is able to experience less and less of the game due to these stacking expenses, and even spending in the cash shop (which I do frequently) can't alleviate the burden. I'm not even an average player, I spend more time in the game than most, and I still feel my schedule being squeezed by all these things you need to grind and all this gold you need to sink.
Also, I feel I've miscommunicated somehow. The problem isn't finding a single look I like. That's easy. I have loads of costumes I love, at least one standard outfit that I know I'm going to buy a slot for, and plenty of ideas for new outfits. It's that last part that's the problem. I want the freedom to experiment with new styles on a regular basis. I want to be able to show the new motifs to my friends when I finish farming them so they can make a better decision regarding whether or not they too want to farm it. I want to do these things without incurring exorbitant expenses. For example, under the current system, did you know that showing off all aspects of the Apostle and Ebonshadow motifs would run you 144k gold? Just to show each motif once. That's ludicrous!
Finally, I get what you're saying about it being an aesthetic thing and not a combat performance thing, but there's no reason to value one more than the other. For many, end-game combat performance is also optional. Indeed, most won't get close to being end-game combat ready. For a lot of people, the real end game is playing magickal cat barbie. They should not be charged a per-use fee for each engagement with the system any more than us PvE or PvP folks should be charged gold to enter a dungeon or Cyro.
Longstride wrote: »My gripe is thus:
I am being force to pay for the privilege of using something I earned. I worked for the achievements that rewarded exclusive dyes, and I killed mobs, pocked pockets, and used gold to buy motifs and style ingredients in order to create a visually unique character. I was very excited for the new system; however, now I am being forced to pay for things that I already worked for.
HeroOfNone wrote: »
the Gear, the riding lessons, and the crafting materials are all what I might consider gold sinks, along with repair costs & storage space, which I assumed you missed. the other stuff doesn't do much to give you an advantage nor is it forced upon you, so this is a difference in priorities, but recognize that's what gives some of the style stuff value. Also, given the setup without using motif stones and being able to apply it across multiple accounts, you can potentially get huge value where you would have to recreate and reforge armor in the past to have the newest look. If the price is dynamic, and changes based on the rarity and the age of the motif, I feel this is fair, as trying to get the motif pieces and materials are already as expensive.
@Cenom
Being cosmetic doesn't matter, as I already pointed out in the quoted text. We don't charge PvP and PvE players gold to enter Cyro, Battlegrounds, or Trials, so there should be no per-use charge for cosmetics either. It should be one and done.
Enough said.
Wreuntzylla wrote: »I haven't tried the system and don't know when you get charged, but outfits are like significant others. You have to try them out for a while, sometimes fix a few things here or there, before you settle on one you really like.
Hopefully the charge comes an hour or two after completion?
No, it's right when you finalize the outfit. There shouldn't be a charge at all, though. Cosmetic freedom is top priority. If we've gathered the motifs and earned the dyes, we have done enough. These extra costs are foolish.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »The outfit system having a gold cost is fine. (The values themselves though, are certainly up for debate). Why? It's a method for Fashion Players to interact with other aspects of the game with incentive.
Much like a player getting and upgrading a set of items whose effect they're interested in, if they want to get another set they're gonna have to go and get it (motif), and upgrade it (Outfitting Cost) just the same as the first.
Except the Fashion Player has many more options to choose from in regards to how they go about obtaining this 'new set', as all you need is some gold.
For player retention and for more gameplay, it's a good system. You may not like it, but it's good for the game.
The charge is so small it's like nothing. Noone forced you to spend millions on housing and motifs anyway. If you gathered all the motifs you have already spent time and gold (probably millions as I said) on them anyway. Don't tell me getting 2000g / very rare style piece will bankkrupt you. RPers, Fashion Players want everything for free? Play the game.
You seem to be forgetting that fashion players already need to get the motifs, and that there the outfit station incurs a per-use cost, which is completely different from getting end-game gear. A more apt comparison would be to compare getting and upgrading the gear (a single cost) with getting the motif (a single cost). You don't then keep spending money once you have your end-game gear, you're done, and once you finish getting the motif you should be done as well.
It's also important to distinguished that there are far more combinations of styles than combinations of gear you would need. At worst, you need to get every set piece in every trait, though in actuality that's not the case since most traits are undesirable. That's only a few thousand possible expenditures, and once you've acquired them all you're done. Comparatively, there are thousands of trillions of possible motif combinations, and you have to pay for each one you switch to.
Your claims about player retention and gameplay are, additionally, completely unsupported. Did you just throw that on the end for fun?
Avran_Sylt wrote: »
Yes, you continue to pay for your end-game gear:
Repairing the gear (many costs) with replacing part of an Outfit (many costs)
Ah, but you get to preview all these combinations without even needing to pay! Did you know you can equip unknown motif styles and still see how it looks with other styles? And can turn your character around to see it from various angles! (Only gripe here would be to have an over-the-shoulder view included).
So those 'thousand expenditures' don't need to be expenditures since you can see the combinations in real-time. No longer needing to even bother going out and getting a motif to see how exactly it looks on your character. (Ah, ESO Fashion days).
I was working on an argument against that, but I will rescind that as yeah, that was a misguided statement. This system isn't meant to keep players around, per say, but to act as a gold sink.
I knew you'd bring up repair costs, but once again the argument doesn't add up. You only damage your gear if you're doing content that will earn you gold anyway. You end up profiting hugely from doing content where you end up having to worry about repair costs. This is not the case with the outfits. You can't be fancy at NPCs and earn gold.
I did know you can equip unknown motifs to try it out, that's not the point. We're talking about changing to and using all these different styles, not previewing. That's why the per-use expenditure matters. If people are just finding one good look and sticking to it then it's an absurdly cheap system, but that's not how a lot of us who've been championing this system wanted it. We want to be able to frequently change our look, and that's not happening with the this system. That's when the price becomes exorbitant and divorced from what we've been asking for.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »
And that's why your Outfit doesn't 'degrade' (It very easily could, but then two systems are double dipping). But also remember that getting motifs from Player Trading is not necessarily the game oriented method, and that looting chests,crates,houses, Coffers, Dailies,Trials, etc. Also provides you with gold sources as well if you choose to farm for the motif yourself. Hence why a gold sink may be beneficial. (It should be noted that some of these systems do double dip: Dailies/Trials)
An inquiry for you:
When 'changing' up your style, do you change a few small pieces to better accentuate a currently existing getup/theme? Or do you completely overwrite it with a new one?
Do these styles echo across all of your characters or do you only have a few each character uses?
...If you like changing things up even a little bit, you're paying for it...
People who want to change their look up a lot with the new system have to go so much above and beyond what other players are expected to keep up with...I need to juggle even more expenditures just to fully utilize it? That doesn't seem fair.
So when changing up the style, I was hoping to do fully-fledged new looks... And in my day-to-day activity I like to switch up, at the very least, my dyes for whatever I'm wearing at the time, be it a costume or armor. I was hoping for this system to be a natural continuation of that, a grand aesthetic Renaissance at least for my main character. My other characters are likely to have one, or at most a handful, of standard looks that I won't need to deviate from. Though I do now have a "second main"...who will also need to switch up frequently because I fundamentally play him as the same person.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »
... Out of curiosity, what would your reaction have been to this system if, per outfit, you simply paid the initial 'cost' for a learned motif style. Swapping between 'crafted' motifs for an Outfit had no additional expense?
BlazingDynamo wrote: »So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..
I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.
Nihility42 wrote: »
Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.