Recremen wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

I think its necessary for more hold sinks as good is easy to make in this game. I think that dye costs should be removed however and eso plus members can use this feature free of charge

There's already so many gold sinks, though! And gold is not that easy to make unless you're strictly farming for gold. If you actually play the content or PvP then gold is actually very precious. Indeed, some systems, like any kind of crafting, will actually have you operating at a loss!

ParaNostram wrote: »

Gold sinks are important for mmo economies.

Cool then the dozen existing gold sinks don't need competition.

Could you list out several of the gold sinks and how this additional sink is negatively impacting your game in anyway different from today on live? It may be a pain to get the hold to get the exact look you've dreamed of, but it shouldn't prevent you from farming out and crafting a look you like from the motifs that you have. You also have costumes as well if it's a dropped set.

To me this is a cosmetic gold sink, like housing. Something that looks nice but won't get you much in terms of better loot, higher dps, or more kills; meaning it's optional. That's just my opinion though.

@HeroOfNone

Current Gold Sinks

• Luxury Vendor
• Golden Vendor
• Houses
• Achievement Furniture
• General Furniture
• Crafting/Furniture Recipes
• Master Writ Items
• Motifs
• Gear
• Riding Lessons
• Crafting Materials

The first few are direct gold sinks, the rest are indirect and depend on your level of engagement. For instance, learning all the Master Writ furniture recipes will, for most people, require that they buy master writs from other people, or buy the recipes directly from others who already got all the master writs needed. Some rare few might get lucky on one character and just get a ton of really good master writs so they can afford it all on their own, and some might do master writs on every character on multiple accounts, but that's not the norm. Same idea with motifs. I farm like the dickens, but even I end up buying some missing motifs here and there, especially on ones like Buoyant Armiger, where they were so rare that people were flat out unwilling or unable to trade duplicates around. Some of these are capped (I just finished riding lessons on my last character a couple weeks ago), but most are a continuous expense.

Now as far as impact goes. I like to engage with all of the above systems. I like to do PvE, PvP, crafting, the works. Having a wide breadth of experiences and tools lets me then make better stories for the community when I have time to do content creation. The outfit system has been something I've been begging for/looking forward to for a long time. And not only have they delivered everything I could have asked for, they went above and beyond my desired feature list. This was going to open up a whole new world for making new content, with almost as much potential as the housing system.

Now the potential is still there, but it comes at even greater costs than what I've already invested to get here. Housing is expensive as heck and I've been pouring huge resources into get stuff prepared for more stories. Having to also juggle a per-use expenditure for aesthetic changes really is that much more of a burden. It feels like an average player is able to experience less and less of the game due to these stacking expenses, and even spending in the cash shop (which I do frequently) can't alleviate the burden. I'm not even an average player, I spend more time in the game than most, and I still feel my schedule being squeezed by all these things you need to grind and all this gold you need to sink.

Also, I feel I've miscommunicated somehow. The problem isn't finding a single look I like. That's easy. I have loads of costumes I love, at least one standard outfit that I know I'm going to buy a slot for, and plenty of ideas for new outfits. It's that last part that's the problem. I want the freedom to experiment with new styles on a regular basis. I want to be able to show the new motifs to my friends when I finish farming them so they can make a better decision regarding whether or not they too want to farm it. I want to do these things without incurring exorbitant expenses. For example, under the current system, did you know that showing off all aspects of the Apostle and Ebonshadow motifs would run you 144k gold? Just to show each motif once. That's ludicrous!

Finally, I get what you're saying about it being an aesthetic thing and not a combat performance thing, but there's no reason to value one more than the other. For many, end-game combat performance is also optional. Indeed, most won't get close to being end-game combat ready. For a lot of people, the real end game is playing magickal cat barbie. They should not be charged a per-use fee for each engagement with the system any more than us PvE or PvP folks should be charged gold to enter a dungeon or Cyro.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

I think its necessary for more hold sinks as good is easy to make in this game. I think that dye costs should be removed however and eso plus members can use this feature free of charge

There's already so many gold sinks, though! And gold is not that easy to make unless you're strictly farming for gold. If you actually play the content or PvP then gold is actually very precious. Indeed, some systems, like any kind of crafting, will actually have you operating at a loss!

ParaNostram wrote: »

Gold sinks are important for mmo economies.

Cool then the dozen existing gold sinks don't need competition.

Could you list out several of the gold sinks and how this additional sink is negatively impacting your game in anyway different from today on live? It may be a pain to get the hold to get the exact look you've dreamed of, but it shouldn't prevent you from farming out and crafting a look you like from the motifs that you have. You also have costumes as well if it's a dropped set.

To me this is a cosmetic gold sink, like housing. Something that looks nice but won't get you much in terms of better loot, higher dps, or more kills; meaning it's optional. That's just my opinion though.

@HeroOfNone

Current Gold Sinks

• Luxury Vendor
• Golden Vendor
• Houses
• Achievement Furniture
• General Furniture
• Crafting/Furniture Recipes
• Master Writ Items
• Motifs
• Gear
• Riding Lessons
• Crafting Materials

The first few are direct gold sinks, the rest are indirect and depend on your level of engagement. For instance, learning all the Master Writ furniture recipes will, for most people, require that they buy master writs from other people, or buy the recipes directly from others who already got all the master writs needed. Some rare few might get lucky on one character and just get a ton of really good master writs so they can afford it all on their own, and some might do master writs on every character on multiple accounts, but that's not the norm. Same idea with motifs. I farm like the dickens, but even I end up buying some missing motifs here and there, especially on ones like Buoyant Armiger, where they were so rare that people were flat out unwilling or unable to trade duplicates around. Some of these are capped (I just finished riding lessons on my last character a couple weeks ago), but most are a continuous expense.

Now as far as impact goes. I like to engage with all of the above systems. I like to do PvE, PvP, crafting, the works. Having a wide breadth of experiences and tools lets me then make better stories for the community when I have time to do content creation. The outfit system has been something I've been begging for/looking forward to for a long time. And not only have they delivered everything I could have asked for, they went above and beyond my desired feature list. This was going to open up a whole new world for making new content, with almost as much potential as the housing system.

Now the potential is still there, but it comes at even greater costs than what I've already invested to get here. Housing is expensive as heck and I've been pouring huge resources into get stuff prepared for more stories. Having to also juggle a per-use expenditure for aesthetic changes really is that much more of a burden. It feels like an average player is able to experience less and less of the game due to these stacking expenses, and even spending in the cash shop (which I do frequently) can't alleviate the burden. I'm not even an average player, I spend more time in the game than most, and I still feel my schedule being squeezed by all these things you need to grind and all this gold you need to sink.

Also, I feel I've miscommunicated somehow. The problem isn't finding a single look I like. That's easy. I have loads of costumes I love, at least one standard outfit that I know I'm going to buy a slot for, and plenty of ideas for new outfits. It's that last part that's the problem. I want the freedom to experiment with new styles on a regular basis. I want to be able to show the new motifs to my friends when I finish farming them so they can make a better decision regarding whether or not they too want to farm it. I want to do these things without incurring exorbitant expenses. For example, under the current system, did you know that showing off all aspects of the Apostle and Ebonshadow motifs would run you 144k gold? Just to show each motif once. That's ludicrous!

Finally, I get what you're saying about it being an aesthetic thing and not a combat performance thing, but there's no reason to value one more than the other. For many, end-game combat performance is also optional. Indeed, most won't get close to being end-game combat ready. For a lot of people, the real end game is playing magickal cat barbie. They should not be charged a per-use fee for each engagement with the system any more than us PvE or PvP folks should be charged gold to enter a dungeon or Cyro.

the Gear, the riding lessons, and the crafting materials are all what I might consider gold sinks, along with repair costs & storage space, which I assumed you missed. the other stuff doesn't do much to give you an advantage nor is it forced upon you, so this is a difference in priorities, but recognize that's what gives some of the style stuff value. Also, given the setup without using motif stones and being able to apply it across multiple accounts, you can potentially get huge value where you would have to recreate and reforge armor in the past to have the newest look. If the price is dynamic, and changes based on the rarity and the age of the motif, I feel this is fair, as trying to get the motif pieces and materials are already as expensive.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The outfit system having a gold cost is fine. (The values themselves though, are certainly up for debate). Why? It's a method for Fashion Players to interact with other aspects of the game with incentive.

Much like a player getting and upgrading a set of items whose effect they're interested in, if they want to get another set they're gonna have to go and get it (motif), and upgrade it (Outfitting Cost) just the same as the first.

Except the Fashion Player has many more options to choose from in regards to how they go about obtaining this 'new set', as all you need is some gold.

For player retention and for more gameplay, it's a good system. You may not like it, but it's good for the game.

Recremen wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting that fashion players already need to get the motifs, and that there the outfit station incurs a per-use cost, which is completely different from getting end-game gear. A more apt comparison would be to compare getting and upgrading the gear (a single cost) with getting the motif (a single cost). You don't then keep spending money once you have your end-game gear, you're done, and once you finish getting the motif you should be done as well.

Recremen wrote: »

It's also important to distinguished that there are far more combinations of styles than combinations of gear you would need. At worst, you need to get every set piece in every trait, though in actuality that's not the case since most traits are undesirable. That's only a few thousand possible expenditures, and once you've acquired them all you're done. Comparatively, there are thousands of trillions of possible motif combinations, and you have to pay for each one you switch to.

Recremen wrote: »

Your claims about player retention and gameplay are, additionally, completely unsupported. Did you just throw that on the end for fun?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting that fashion players already need to get the motifs, and that there the outfit station incurs a per-use cost, which is completely different from getting end-game gear. A more apt comparison would be to compare getting and upgrading the gear (a single cost) with getting the motif (a single cost). You don't then keep spending money once you have your end-game gear, you're done, and once you finish getting the motif you should be done as well.

Yes, you continue to pay for your end-game gear:
Repairing the gear (many costs) with replacing part of an Outfit (many costs)

Recremen wrote: »

It's also important to distinguished that there are far more combinations of styles than combinations of gear you would need. At worst, you need to get every set piece in every trait, though in actuality that's not the case since most traits are undesirable. That's only a few thousand possible expenditures, and once you've acquired them all you're done. Comparatively, there are thousands of trillions of possible motif combinations, and you have to pay for each one you switch to.

Ah, but you get to preview all these combinations without even needing to pay! Did you know you can equip unknown motif styles and still see how it looks with other styles? And can turn your character around to see it from various angles! (Only gripe here would be to have an over-the-shoulder view included).

So those 'thousand expenditures' don't need to be expenditures since you can see the combinations in real-time. No longer needing to even bother going out and getting a motif to see how exactly it looks on your character. (Ah, ESO Fashion days).

Recremen wrote: »

Your claims about player retention and gameplay are, additionally, completely unsupported. Did you just throw that on the end for fun?

I was working on an argument against that, but I will rescind that as yeah, that was a misguided statement. This system isn't meant to keep players around, per say, but to act as a gold sink.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I knew you'd bring up repair costs, but once again the argument doesn't add up. You only damage your gear if you're doing content that will earn you gold anyway. You end up profiting hugely from doing content where you end up having to worry about repair costs. This is not the case with the outfits. You can't be fancy at NPCs and earn gold.

And that's why your Outfit doesn't 'degrade' (It very easily could, but then two systems are double dipping). But also remember that getting motifs from Player Trading is not necessarily the game oriented method, and that looting chests,crates,houses, Coffers, Dailies,Trials, etc. Also provides you with gold sources as well if you choose to farm for the motif yourself. Hence why a gold sink may be beneficial. (It should be noted that some of these systems do double dip: Dailies/Trials)

Recremen wrote: »

I did know you can equip unknown motifs to try it out, that's not the point. We're talking about changing to and using all these different styles, not previewing. That's why the per-use expenditure matters. If people are just finding one good look and sticking to it then it's an absurdly cheap system, but that's not how a lot of us who've been championing this system wanted it. We want to be able to frequently change our look, and that's not happening with the this system. That's when the price becomes exorbitant and divorced from what we've been asking for.

An inquiry for you:
When 'changing' up your style, do you change a few small pieces to better accentuate a currently existing getup/theme? Or do you completely overwrite it with a new one?
Do these styles echo across all of your characters or do you only have a few each character uses?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

...If you like changing things up even a little bit, you're paying for it...

People who want to change their look up a lot with the new system have to go so much above and beyond what other players are expected to keep up with...I need to juggle even more expenditures just to fully utilize it? That doesn't seem fair.

So when changing up the style, I was hoping to do fully-fledged new looks... And in my day-to-day activity I like to switch up, at the very least, my dyes for whatever I'm wearing at the time, be it a costume or armor. I was hoping for this system to be a natural continuation of that, a grand aesthetic Renaissance at least for my main character. My other characters are likely to have one, or at most a handful, of standard looks that I won't need to deviate from. Though I do now have a "second main"...who will also need to switch up frequently because I fundamentally play him as the same person.

... Out of curiosity, what would your reaction have been to this system if, per outfit, you simply paid the initial 'cost' for a learned motif style. Swapping between 'crafted' motifs for an Outfit had no additional expense?

Nihility42 wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

So I guess everyone in this thread wants to get charged every time they switch costumes? Sweet..

I can't tell if you guys are geniuses or just plain ignorant.

Gold sinks are generally good for MMO economies, so I would rather pay a trivial fee for an outfit and have a healthier economy.