So, I thought I'd come to vent.

Imza · December 2017

@Morgha_Kul

I admire your persistance in trying to finish the dungeon.

I got White Gold Tower 3 times in a row - I had never done it before - first 2 times we did it ok - I was with experienced players.

The third time - I got unlucky and was with a group that likely were like you - casual players - after 2 hours we gave up trying to kill the last boss.

Won't stop me doing more - but I do understand your pain.

TL:DR
Try creating a new character and once they reach level 10 start taking them through random dungeons - that way you get to learn them as you lvl up - it will help you a lot.

RobbieRocket · December 2017

This sounds unfortunate but you got the hardest dungeon possible.

The main difference between normal and veteran is that experienced or high CP players can play normal any-which-way and make it through but with veteran dungeons (and in particular I mean the DLC ones) there needs to be elements of mechanics knowledge, teamwork, appropriate builds/roles and for the absolute hardest content, all being in voice chat is a great aid.

So, in light of the above, a lot of people reading your thread will immediately be surprised when they discover you are talking about a normal dungeon. The problem is they have become less aware of the dynamics of a normal dungeon for players who are significantly (1) less experienced at playing them, and (2) are not optimised for the content. In this situation the normal dungeon (especially on the harder bosses) becomes deadly and in the case of the hardest dungeons (and Bloodroot Forge is probably the hardest one right now) these 2 factors are enough to prevent progress.

A solution would have been (and could be for the future) to read about the "real" difficulty of dungeons. You should have left Bloodroot Forge, but that is the beauty of hindsight. In those 6 hours, your group would likely have made it through 6-12 normal non-DLC dunegons.

That's the crux of it. It is something about information. I would join a guild and ask questions. I would also try to group through the guild and explain your situation. If your do not want to mic up or do not enjoy texting other players, explain that at the start but at least go with some support.

Good luck!

Magdalina · December 2017

newtinmpls wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

The statue room mechanics(I believe there should be vids online but here's the gist of it).

You are an angel!!

Hahahaha you're welcome

Lemme know if you need any others explain lol. I love explaining when people are willing to listen.

Raudgrani · December 2017

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I had gone into the game thinking to get myself one of these event crate things, but I discovered to my disappointment that they're only for the GROUP dungeons, and only via the random dungeon finder.

Now, I never do those dungeons, because every time I do, they all end the same way. Team wipe after team wipe after team wipe. Bosses with attacks you can't avoid or block, but that will instantly oneshot you. Bosses with so much health that they take an hour to kill off IF you can manage to do it (usually after 20-30 wipes). In general, it's just not any fun, so I don't do them.

But, if I want to partake of the "event," I'm forced to do them, so I thought I'd give it a try again. After all, it's been a while since I last did one (before One Tamriel), so maybe things will be better?

So, I queued and entered a dungeon I'd not seen before. Some dungeon with Nords, Minotaurs and Fire Shalks. Of course, as usual the group was blitzing through as fast as possible, so I had no chance to read anything, or find loot, or look around for hidden things... but that really wasn't why I was there.

We battled through. Many of the fights were really hard, but we prevailed. Eventually, we came to a group of final bosses. Three of them, all ridiculously strong. We went in without a plan and wiped about 6 times. Finally, we got organized and went in properly and prevailed. I thought we were done, but no, there was "one" more boss, a magma atronach of some sort.

It proceeded to wipe the team over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over, with no end in sight. Every hit was oneshotting anyone it hit. Of course, there was also debris falling on our heads slowing and stunning us, guaranteeing we'd GET hit, so it oneshotted everyone over and over. As if that wasn't enough, it also conjured duplicates of itself, all of which were oneshotting everyone over and over and over.

After something like 200 wipes, I left. I hate to leave a group, but I'd been there nearly 6 hours being wiped over and over and over with no way to avoid or prevent it.

This is why I don't do these missions. They're stupidly difficult, and that was on NORMAL.

I'm especially disappointed because this is content, some of it quite spectacular, that I will NEVER do again. I wish they had made these a bit more reasonable at the "Normal" level. They could have made the current Normal level the "Veteran" level, and had a third "Elite" level that's the same as the current Veteran level. As it is, these missions are simply not accessible to more casual players, and I honestly don't see how less casual ones can even find these entertaining.

So, if there's a point to this, it's that there should be a lower difficulty level, at least on the bosses of these things. As it stands, they're too strong in pretty well every case I've seen.

1. Normal - New level, less powerful bosses.
2. Veteran - Same as current Normal level.
3. Elite - Same as current Veteran level.

Then you probably need to play the game. If you get wiped 200 times in a normal dungeon, then it's probably your own fault. I got "wiped" many times, and eventually left dungeons, the first few weeks when I started to play the game and got into dungeons. Oki, I might die and leave using activity finder, if I end up in some of the DLC dungeons with people who really suck, or who simple don't understand the mechanics and don't listen or read.

No offense, but you need to level up, get better at the game, and get to know the mechanics of some dungeons. It's not more than that. Mostly when I run with activity finder, I end up in groups who finish them in like 10-20 minutes, not rarely "no death runs" (for which you get achievements). I didn't think I was ever going to be able of doing that almost exactly a year ago. I assure you that.

GreenhaloX · December 2017

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Now, I never do those dungeons, because every time I do, they all end the same way. Team wipe after team wipe after team wipe. Bosses with attacks you can't avoid or block, but that will instantly oneshot you. Bosses with so much health that they take an hour to kill off IF you can manage to do it (usually after 20-30 wipes). In general, it's just not any fun, so I don't do them.

So, I queued and entered a dungeon I'd not seen before. Some dungeon with Nords, Minotaurs and Fire Shalks. Of course, as usual the group was blitzing through as fast as possible, so I had no chance to read anything, or find loot, or look around for hidden things... but that really wasn't why I was there.

After something like 200 wipes, I left. I hate to leave a group, but I'd been there nearly 6 hours being wiped over and over and over with no way to avoid or prevent it.

This is why I don't do these missions. They're stupidly difficult, and that was on NORMAL.

First, sorry, I had to chop up your comments just for what I need to reply on. Ok.. so I'm thinking there's a bit of an exaggeration on your numbers with the 20-30 wipes, and particularly the 200 wipes. I can't fathom to see that someone has that much or super patience to deal with any endgame contents within ESO (or any other games, for that matter) on normal. The norm with my experience, and of course, I can't speak for all, but it's usually around 3-4 when folks starts to peel out when a dungeon (normal or vet) isn't going right. Ok, you may have a progression group for vMoL or any other vet trial that keeps plugging at it and may have wiped 10-20 times before completion, but it's hard to digest that someone will keep at it or stick around within a group that would wipe that much in normal mode. Ha ha

Anyways, not just to comment on your seemingly extreme wipe numbers, but, I can understand and feel your pain and frustration with starting out on doing group dungeons; especially, when you are a lower level toon. A lot of folks with higher CP toons.. I think a lot of peeps, because they have been playing with a toon or toons with higher CP or maxed CP for a long time and can breeze through any normal dungeons sololy, may have forgotten how it was when they were going through it when starting out and their toon(s) had no CP or lower CP. Heck, I didn't really feel comfortable with those regular group dungeons on normal until I was in the 300 CP. I think I was able to solo those normal dungeons when in the mid-300 CP. Also, because the lower CP your toon has, the less damage mitigation you have; particularly with post-Morrowind where Hardy and Elemental has been nerfed to 15% max; whereas, it was 25% cap prior. So, any toons with less than 200 CP (being conservative here) will still have a challenge doing normal dungeons, and if all in your group are lower CP as that, then, yes, even normal dungeons will be a bit more difficult or challenging than if you are a higher level CP toons. Also, yes, those DLC dungeons (normal and vet) are a bit more difficult than the others. Heck, I still see a lot of peeps with the 200 and 300 CP seemingly struggling a bit with normal CoS, RoM, WGT, ICP and other DLC dungeons.

As others have mentioned that, yes, Bloodforge is one of the more challenging DLC dungeon; even on normal. I remember the first time I had queued into it. I had my maxed CP tank, and as soon as I was in, the others in the group were waiting for me and I can see their group text as.. "This sucks. We have wiped a lot of time already," and "Are we going to finish this or what?!" Then, they were relieved when they saw me, and commented, "Oh good, we got a real tank this time." Ha ha. They were actually at the final boss of Bloodforge. Again, this is my first run at it, and I noticed the other were from 100-300 CPs. I tanked it and even though I had my DK tank and spammed out Igneous Shield and Magma Shell as often as I can and kept the bosses on me, the others still wiped (or die) a couple times over until we finished it. The flame, magma and whatever other AoE from the bosses are quite up there. Actually, I ended up clearing it myself, as the tank, because it wasn't that easy or feasible to keep rezzing everybody else. After the first couple times of rezzing everybody, I was nearly killed myself. I actually gone through Bloodforge another time. This time, from the beginning, and again I had my tank. The others in the group has one peep in the 200 something CP, another in the 300s and the 500s. I figured, for normal mode, and we had presentable CP toons; however, with every single boss fight, all of them would wipe (or die), and I had to rezz them over and over again. Practically, every boss, I had ended clearing while the others were dead. It is tougher with Bloodforge (even in normal mode) to rez the dead when you're the only one still kicking.

It's not about "git gud" or "L2P"; whatever the f these terms are. People (or gamers) don't realize that stupid terms, as these, can be insulting and not even relating to what folks expressing. Not everybody are good game players, in general. For any game, the more you play, you more you should become more comfortable and become better. In ESO, its contents become easier with the more CP and better build you have and the better you have become acclimated to your skillsets and rotations. Any player/toon with 300 CP and more can comfortably solo those normal dungeons; however, any toon/player within 300 CP or less will experience a bit more challenge with vet dungeons. I'm willing to bet those thrashing others with git gud or L2P are just knuckeheads needing to bash on others just to make themselves feel relevance.

So, don't sweat it or feel bad. You'll get better. I'm sure you were in a group that was not so experienced and also in the lower CP bracket. It's just the nature of the beast. If everyone in the group is all lower CP bracket, you will have a bit more challenge with endgame contents. However, you will also queue into a group where there are toons/players with higher CP and/or more experienced, and you will breeze through those dungeons, even if someone may be a toon/player with level 20 or 30 (non-CP.) Also, join a guild. You're likely to find many guild members of higher level that will go with you into any dungeon or endgame content. It isn't all that bad. You just, unfortunately had a bad experience with not so of a group. We all have been there and are still getting into not so good of a group, when queuing. It is also the nature of the beast with random dungeon queuing activity finder.

Magdalina · December 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's not about "git gud" or "L2P"; whatever the f these terms are. People (or gamers) don't realize that stupid terms, as these, can be insulting and not even relating to what folks expressing. Not everybody are good game players, in general. For any game, the more you play, you more you should become more comfortable and become better. In ESO, its contents become easier with the more CP and better build you have and the better you have become acclimated to your skillsets and rotations. Any player/toon with 300 CP and more can comfortably solo those normal dungeons; however, any toon/player within 300 CP or less will experience a bit more challenge with vet dungeons. I'm willing to bet those thrashing others with git gud or L2P are just knuckeheads needing to bash on others just to make themselves feel relevance.

So, don't sweat it or feel bad. You'll get better.

This is unfortunately not true. And while this may not sound nice...it is about L2P(I will agree it's definitely the case for the whole group, not just the OP though). And there's nothing so bad about that. When you're new to something, you're normally bad at it just because you don't yet know how to do it - so if you wanna get better, you'll have to learn some things just like everyone else did.

There're HEAPS of 300+(and even 600+) cp people in eso who don't know ANYTHING about the game. Not just they cannot solo "those normal dungeons", they cannot even pull more than 5k dps on their own nor survive tanking while having 50k+ health. Meanwhile it's totally possible for a 0 cp <lvl 50 toon to solo most normals if they know what they're doing. CP will not make you better by default. Realizing that you are currently...underperforming and consciously putting effort into trying to improve will. But there's that very important step here which a lot of people are missing. You need to realize you're underperforming first. Then you can either choose to improve by figuring out build/rotation/mechanics etc or you can accept this and stick to content where it won't matter(such as open world or normal dungeons I) if that's your cup of tea.

zaria · December 2017

RobbieRocket wrote: »

This sounds unfortunate but you got the hardest dungeon possible.

The main difference between normal and veteran is that experienced or high CP players can play normal any-which-way and make it through but with veteran dungeons (and in particular I mean the DLC ones) there needs to be elements of mechanics knowledge, teamwork, appropriate builds/roles and for the absolute hardest content, all being in voice chat is a great aid.

So, in light of the above, a lot of people reading your thread will immediately be surprised when they discover you are talking about a normal dungeon. The problem is they have become less aware of the dynamics of a normal dungeon for players who are significantly (1) less experienced at playing them, and (2) are not optimised for the content. In this situation the normal dungeon (especially on the harder bosses) becomes deadly and in the case of the hardest dungeons (and Bloodroot Forge is probably the hardest one right now) these 2 factors are enough to prevent progress.

A solution would have been (and could be for the future) to read about the "real" difficulty of dungeons. You should have left Bloodroot Forge, but that is the beauty of hindsight. In those 6 hours, your group would likely have made it through 6-12 normal non-DLC dunegons.

That's the crux of it. It is something about information. I would join a guild and ask questions. I would also try to group through the guild and explain your situation. If your do not want to mic up or do not enjoy texting other players, explain that at the start but at least go with some support.

Good luck!

yes the main surprise was why people stayed so long, had +4 hours in vet fungal 2 and 2-3 in vet falcreach hold but that was guild groups falcreach was pretty smooth up to last boss.

Think normal bloodroot is harder than vet CoA1, Fungal1 and Wayrest1. Might feel so as you tend to get better groups in vet pugs. did it with an weak group on level 48 alt and we wiped some times, interesting it went better as we moved on, playing so many alts you get confused to.

GreenhaloX · December 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's not about "git gud" or "L2P"; whatever the f these terms are. People (or gamers) don't realize that stupid terms, as these, can be insulting and not even relating to what folks expressing. Not everybody are good game players, in general. For any game, the more you play, you more you should become more comfortable and become better. In ESO, its contents become easier with the more CP and better build you have and the better you have become acclimated to your skillsets and rotations. Any player/toon with 300 CP and more can comfortably solo those normal dungeons; however, any toon/player within 300 CP or less will experience a bit more challenge with vet dungeons. I'm willing to bet those thrashing others with git gud or L2P are just knuckeheads needing to bash on others just to make themselves feel relevance.

So, don't sweat it or feel bad. You'll get better.

This is unfortunately not true. And while this may not sound nice...it is about L2P(I will agree it's definitely the case for the whole group, not just the OP though). And there's nothing so bad about that. When you're new to something, you're normally bad at it just because you don't yet know how to do it - so if you wanna get better, you'll have to learn some things just like everyone else did.

There're HEAPS of 300+(and even 600+) cp people in eso who don't know ANYTHING about the game. Not just they cannot solo "those normal dungeons", they cannot even pull more than 5k dps on their own nor survive tanking while having 50k+ health. Meanwhile it's totally possible for a 0 cp <lvl 50 toon to solo most normals if they know what they're doing. CP will not make you better by default. Realizing that you are currently...underperforming and consciously putting effort into trying to improve will. But there's that very important step here which a lot of people are missing. You need to realize you're underperforming first. Then you can either choose to improve by figuring out build/rotation/mechanics etc or you can accept this and stick to content where it won't matter(such as open world or normal dungeons I) if that's your cup of tea.

I'm just being realistic. It takes a long time and a lot of playtime to get to 300 CP and more, and the more playtime you put in, the more you would know. Of course, you're not going to know everything. Heck, I have been playing ESO for over 2 years now and well over 1000 CP, but, I certainly don't know everything there is to know about ESO and its endgame contents. However, I have to give peeps more credit here. You can roll around with your toons in just underwear and get more than 10k dps, even in the lower CP bracket. If anyone with 300 CP and higher and seemingly not knowing what the hell they are doing, then, perhaps, it's probably a family member, friend or somebody else using that toon and just messing around for the first time in the ESO; particularly if you're 600 CP and higher. Come on now.. gotta give peeps more credit than that. Ha ha.

As for the level 50 and lower that you say can solo a normal dungeon; sure.. but, they are probably higher CP players who created a new toon and it's only showing the new toon's level and not their CP. Having CP is what allows you to plus up on your passives on the constellations; which in turn, offers more damage mitigation, improved resources management and better dps capability. Therefore, the more CP you have and able to add on to your constellation passives, the easier or better things can get. Of course, experience and good build, weapon, skillsets, abilities and rotations are major aspects; however, you can't dps if you're dead or keep on dying because your damage mitigation or resistance factors are lower. Heck, even certain maxed out CP toons are wiping (or dying) at dolmens, because they probably have on those light ass armors and forgot or didn't throw up the good shield in time. Plus, with Morrowind patch with many things/toons passives and abilities nerfed and incoming damages from bosses and even certain adds are packing more heat (some with 4-8k for certain adds alone and 9-18k from bosses), many non-CP toons and lower CP toons are even having challenges at dolmens. Thus, being a newer player with non-CP or lower level CP toon, you're not going to solo any normal dungeons more readily. I'm not giving those less credit, but, I'm just being realistic. If those non-CP toons/players can, then, I am willing to suspect something is fishy.. i.e, CE, perhaps.

Magdalina · December 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's not about "git gud" or "L2P"; whatever the f these terms are. People (or gamers) don't realize that stupid terms, as these, can be insulting and not even relating to what folks expressing. Not everybody are good game players, in general. For any game, the more you play, you more you should become more comfortable and become better. In ESO, its contents become easier with the more CP and better build you have and the better you have become acclimated to your skillsets and rotations. Any player/toon with 300 CP and more can comfortably solo those normal dungeons; however, any toon/player within 300 CP or less will experience a bit more challenge with vet dungeons. I'm willing to bet those thrashing others with git gud or L2P are just knuckeheads needing to bash on others just to make themselves feel relevance.

So, don't sweat it or feel bad. You'll get better.

This is unfortunately not true. And while this may not sound nice...it is about L2P(I will agree it's definitely the case for the whole group, not just the OP though). And there's nothing so bad about that. When you're new to something, you're normally bad at it just because you don't yet know how to do it - so if you wanna get better, you'll have to learn some things just like everyone else did.

There're HEAPS of 300+(and even 600+) cp people in eso who don't know ANYTHING about the game. Not just they cannot solo "those normal dungeons", they cannot even pull more than 5k dps on their own nor survive tanking while having 50k+ health. Meanwhile it's totally possible for a 0 cp <lvl 50 toon to solo most normals if they know what they're doing. CP will not make you better by default. Realizing that you are currently...underperforming and consciously putting effort into trying to improve will. But there's that very important step here which a lot of people are missing. You need to realize you're underperforming first. Then you can either choose to improve by figuring out build/rotation/mechanics etc or you can accept this and stick to content where it won't matter(such as open world or normal dungeons I) if that's your cup of tea.

I'm just being realistic. It takes a long time and a lot of playtime to get to 300 CP and more, and the more playtime you put in, the more you would know. Of course, you're not going to know everything. Heck, I have been playing ESO for over 2 years now and well over 1000 CP, but, I certainly don't know everything there is to know about ESO and its endgame contents. However, I have to give peeps more credit here. You can roll around with your toons in just underwear and get more than 10k dps, even in the lower CP bracket. If anyone with 300 CP and higher and seemingly not knowing what the hell they are doing, then, perhaps, it's probably a family member, friend or somebody else using that toon and just messing around for the first time in the ESO; particularly if you're 600 CP and higher. Come on now.. gotta give peeps more credit than that. Ha ha.

As for the level 50 and lower that you say can solo a normal dungeon; sure.. but, they are probably higher CP players who created a new toon and it's only showing the new toon's level and not their CP. Having CP is what allows you to plus up on your passives on the constellations; which in turn, offers more damage mitigation, improved resources management and better dps capability. Therefore, the more CP you have and able to add on to your constellation passives, the easier or better things can get. Of course, experience and good build, weapon, skillsets, abilities and rotations are major aspects; however, you can't dps if you're dead or keep on dying because your damage mitigation or resistance factors are lower. Heck, even certain maxed out CP toons are wiping (or dying) at dolmens, because they probably have on those light ass armors and forgot or didn't throw up the good shield in time. Plus, with Morrowind patch with many things/toons passives and abilities nerfed and incoming damages from bosses and even certain adds are packing more heat (some with 4-8k for certain adds alone and 9-18k from bosses), many non-CP toons and lower CP toons are even having challenges at dolmens. Thus, being a newer player with non-CP or lower level CP toon, you're not going to solo any normal dungeons more readily. I'm not giving those less credit, but, I'm just being realistic. If those non-CP toons/players can, then, I am willing to suspect something is fishy.. i.e, CE, perhaps.

You're overrating CP. I feel really a lot of people make that mistake. Yes, CP are very powerful in the right hands. What CP mean though(besides time invested which is not really an indication of anything - you can hit high cp just questing in the open world) is the ceiling your character can achieve. The more CP you have, the higher/better results you can achieve. But it doesn't mean you necessarily will achieve it - even if you have 1k CP you're not going to achieve much if you're a bow heavy attack spammer in full heavy armor or something along these lines.

I have levelled a brand new toon on EU recently; I main NA so this means absolutely brand new for me, no CP, no crafting alts, no anything, only my knowledge about the game. I won't like and say I was magically able to pull 40k dps at level 10 or something but a few times I have actually had to carry cp players through normal dungeons as a <lvl 50 lowbie(I'm serious here, I wish I was kidding!). Because I knew what I was doing and they obviously didn't. It wasn't as easy as roflstomping everything on my maxed out NA toons but it was possible.

Back when CP were just being introduced, me and a friend 2 manned most vet dungeons(HMs too) at barely 200 cp, so it's so funny to see people throw the "<300 cp=bad player" argument around. Yes things have changed since then but not quite so much.

Tl;dr : make no mistake, CP on their own don't and cannot make a bad player good or even decent. They can only make a decent player better, and a good player great. YOU are the one who makes your character decent/good by learning stuff about the game.

lappas · December 2017

Dude there is no obligation from the games side that you should be able to complete all content at any given time.
Cant beat something? Learn how to beat something, practice, level up etc. I do not understand how guys with you're attitude go through everyday life. And is that not the point with a game? To conquer the challenges within it otherwise you could just go watch a movie.

N0TPLAYER2 · December 2017

Quit asking for the game to be made easier and YOU get better at it. This isn't a l2p post but seriously, if you can't do it, PRATICE.

This is what's wrong with today's gaming world.

GreenhaloX · December 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's not about "git gud" or "L2P"; whatever the f these terms are. People (or gamers) don't realize that stupid terms, as these, can be insulting and not even relating to what folks expressing. Not everybody are good game players, in general. For any game, the more you play, you more you should become more comfortable and become better. In ESO, its contents become easier with the more CP and better build you have and the better you have become acclimated to your skillsets and rotations. Any player/toon with 300 CP and more can comfortably solo those normal dungeons; however, any toon/player within 300 CP or less will experience a bit more challenge with vet dungeons. I'm willing to bet those thrashing others with git gud or L2P are just knuckeheads needing to bash on others just to make themselves feel relevance.

So, don't sweat it or feel bad. You'll get better.

This is unfortunately not true. And while this may not sound nice...it is about L2P(I will agree it's definitely the case for the whole group, not just the OP though). And there's nothing so bad about that. When you're new to something, you're normally bad at it just because you don't yet know how to do it - so if you wanna get better, you'll have to learn some things just like everyone else did.

There're HEAPS of 300+(and even 600+) cp people in eso who don't know ANYTHING about the game. Not just they cannot solo "those normal dungeons", they cannot even pull more than 5k dps on their own nor survive tanking while having 50k+ health. Meanwhile it's totally possible for a 0 cp <lvl 50 toon to solo most normals if they know what they're doing. CP will not make you better by default. Realizing that you are currently...underperforming and consciously putting effort into trying to improve will. But there's that very important step here which a lot of people are missing. You need to realize you're underperforming first. Then you can either choose to improve by figuring out build/rotation/mechanics etc or you can accept this and stick to content where it won't matter(such as open world or normal dungeons I) if that's your cup of tea.

I'm just being realistic. It takes a long time and a lot of playtime to get to 300 CP and more, and the more playtime you put in, the more you would know. Of course, you're not going to know everything. Heck, I have been playing ESO for over 2 years now and well over 1000 CP, but, I certainly don't know everything there is to know about ESO and its endgame contents. However, I have to give peeps more credit here. You can roll around with your toons in just underwear and get more than 10k dps, even in the lower CP bracket. If anyone with 300 CP and higher and seemingly not knowing what the hell they are doing, then, perhaps, it's probably a family member, friend or somebody else using that toon and just messing around for the first time in the ESO; particularly if you're 600 CP and higher. Come on now.. gotta give peeps more credit than that. Ha ha.

As for the level 50 and lower that you say can solo a normal dungeon; sure.. but, they are probably higher CP players who created a new toon and it's only showing the new toon's level and not their CP. Having CP is what allows you to plus up on your passives on the constellations; which in turn, offers more damage mitigation, improved resources management and better dps capability. Therefore, the more CP you have and able to add on to your constellation passives, the easier or better things can get. Of course, experience and good build, weapon, skillsets, abilities and rotations are major aspects; however, you can't dps if you're dead or keep on dying because your damage mitigation or resistance factors are lower. Heck, even certain maxed out CP toons are wiping (or dying) at dolmens, because they probably have on those light ass armors and forgot or didn't throw up the good shield in time. Plus, with Morrowind patch with many things/toons passives and abilities nerfed and incoming damages from bosses and even certain adds are packing more heat (some with 4-8k for certain adds alone and 9-18k from bosses), many non-CP toons and lower CP toons are even having challenges at dolmens. Thus, being a newer player with non-CP or lower level CP toon, you're not going to solo any normal dungeons more readily. I'm not giving those less credit, but, I'm just being realistic. If those non-CP toons/players can, then, I am willing to suspect something is fishy.. i.e, CE, perhaps.

You're overrating CP. I feel really a lot of people make that mistake. Yes, CP are very powerful in the right hands. What CP mean though(besides time invested which is not really an indication of anything - you can hit high cp just questing in the open world) is the ceiling your character can achieve. The more CP you have, the higher/better results you can achieve. But it doesn't mean you necessarily will achieve it - even if you have 1k CP you're not going to achieve much if you're a bow heavy attack spammer in full heavy armor or something along these lines.

I have levelled a brand new toon on EU recently; I main NA so this means absolutely brand new for me, no CP, no crafting alts, no anything, only my knowledge about the game. I won't like and say I was magically able to pull 40k dps at level 10 or something but a few times I have actually had to carry cp players through normal dungeons as a <lvl 50 lowbie(I'm serious here, I wish I was kidding!). Because I knew what I was doing and they obviously didn't. It wasn't as easy as roflstomping everything on my maxed out NA toons but it was possible.

Back when CP were just being introduced, me and a friend 2 manned most vet dungeons(HMs too) at barely 200 cp, so it's so funny to see people throw the "<300 cp=bad player" argument around. Yes things have changed since then but not quite so much.

Tl;dr : make no mistake, CP on their own don't and cannot make a bad player good or even decent. They can only make a decent player better, and a good player great. YOU are the one who makes your character decent/good by learning stuff about the game.

There is no mistake about it. That's why the dev established the CP tree here and in Skyrim. I'm sensing you're just pulling my leg, though. I'll just leave it at that..

Ok, well, hold on.. If you are not really pulling my leg, then go ahead and take a non-CP toon into a CP campaign in Cyrodiil, or duel another toon with 300 CP or more. Also, if you say so, as not too many peeps are capable of 2 manning a vet dungeon with 200 CP or so. If so, then you must be that really good of a gamer, and good for you on such feat. I don't think too many can do that.

Soleya · December 2017

One of the randoms I did during the event was normal spindleclutch 1. And while we beat it, had it been fawlkreath I know there is no way we would have completed.

I was on my tank. The "healer" was using bow and dual wield light attacks. According to combat metrics, the group dps was 10k (combined), of which 3700 was from my tank. I was also 82% of the group healing at 1k heals per second.

So the 3 dps (cause one was not a healer) were averaging 1600 dps each.

Linaleah · December 2017

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I grow tired of the L2P crowd with 690 CPs, in gold or purple gear.

So in other words, experienced players that know what they're doing.

If someone is dying that much on ANY dungeon on normal, they absolutely need to Learn To Play. I walked into normal Mazzatun to learn the mechanics ALONE, and walked out having died less than three times, even with the totem illusion thing.

Maybe. It’s always assumed the person stinks.

I give them a break. It’s easy for me because of 690 CPs, all gold gear and understanding of the mechanics. It’s not fair to assume a new player sucks because he has none of those.

I’d like to see you solo Mazzatun normal with no CP and green gear.

So your defense is that you would like to see me solo a dungeon while pretending to play like a total idiot that:

Refuses to get proper gear
Refuses to get proper CP before queuing for hard content
And probably doesn't know their rotations.

Yeah, no. That is not a defense. That is the very definition of a L2P issue, in other words, entirely user error.

they weren't queueing for a hard dungeon. they were queueing for a random. and got an awful luck of getting the hardest unforgiving, when it comes to mechanics

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Everyone that's defending the inexperienced players is just conveniently ignoring the fact that google is a thing.

Literally just about everyone has a smartphone these days that is capable of browsing the web. If something is giving these players problems, a simple "I am going to google this dungeon" line in text chat and then a 5-minute skim-read would solve any issues with them not knowing the mechanics.

Hell, anyone that has the ability to think for themselves SHOULD be looking up dungeon/trial mechanics before they even start looking for their first run of them. Just half an hour or less of research will potentially save the user HOURS of getting slaughtered to mechanics they haven't learned yet in dungeons.

It's a simple matter of willful ignorance and laziness.

Have to agree here. There are too many people who are high CP that still do not understand the basics of the game. It's ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k dps with no animation canceling (the only thing in PvE that requires any sort of skill to do) so there is no excuse for all of these sub-10k dps players i get paired up with in the group finder.

Ignorance brought on by laziness accompanied by the fact that these players feel no shame for making your dungeon run take 3 times as long because they can't be bothered to put in the minimal effort.

***. its not ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k without animation canceling. you get maybe 13 by trying pretty darn hard, while not at the same time trying to deal with mechanics. moreover, what animation canceling requires is not skill. it requires twitch reflexes, good ping and dummy practice to get your rotation right. last but not least. so what you are requiring here is that a player before stepping foot into any kind of content... does homework. copious. amounts. of homework. because random dungeon means anything could pop which means you are requiring players to learn the mechanics of every. single. dungeon. in the game. before they get to experience them. on normal.

yikes.

Apache_Kid · December 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I grow tired of the L2P crowd with 690 CPs, in gold or purple gear.

So in other words, experienced players that know what they're doing.

If someone is dying that much on ANY dungeon on normal, they absolutely need to Learn To Play. I walked into normal Mazzatun to learn the mechanics ALONE, and walked out having died less than three times, even with the totem illusion thing.

Maybe. It’s always assumed the person stinks.

I give them a break. It’s easy for me because of 690 CPs, all gold gear and understanding of the mechanics. It’s not fair to assume a new player sucks because he has none of those.

I’d like to see you solo Mazzatun normal with no CP and green gear.

So your defense is that you would like to see me solo a dungeon while pretending to play like a total idiot that:

Refuses to get proper gear
Refuses to get proper CP before queuing for hard content
And probably doesn't know their rotations.

Yeah, no. That is not a defense. That is the very definition of a L2P issue, in other words, entirely user error.

they weren't queueing for a hard dungeon. they were queueing for a random. and got an awful luck of getting the hardest unforgiving, when it comes to mechanics

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Everyone that's defending the inexperienced players is just conveniently ignoring the fact that google is a thing.

Literally just about everyone has a smartphone these days that is capable of browsing the web. If something is giving these players problems, a simple "I am going to google this dungeon" line in text chat and then a 5-minute skim-read would solve any issues with them not knowing the mechanics.

Hell, anyone that has the ability to think for themselves SHOULD be looking up dungeon/trial mechanics before they even start looking for their first run of them. Just half an hour or less of research will potentially save the user HOURS of getting slaughtered to mechanics they haven't learned yet in dungeons.

It's a simple matter of willful ignorance and laziness.

Have to agree here. There are too many people who are high CP that still do not understand the basics of the game. It's ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k dps with no animation canceling (the only thing in PvE that requires any sort of skill to do) so there is no excuse for all of these sub-10k dps players i get paired up with in the group finder.

Ignorance brought on by laziness accompanied by the fact that these players feel no shame for making your dungeon run take 3 times as long because they can't be bothered to put in the minimal effort.

***. its not ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k without animation canceling. you get maybe 13 by trying pretty darn hard, while not at the same time trying to deal with mechanics. moreover, what animation canceling requires is not skill. it requires twitch reflexes, good ping and dummy practice to get your rotation right. last but not least. so what you are requiring here is that a player before stepping foot into any kind of content... does homework. copious. amounts. of homework. because random dungeon means anything could pop which means you are requiring players to learn the mechanics of every. single. dungeon. in the game. before they get to experience them. on normal.

yikes.

Not at all. And yes it's ridiculously easy to hit 15k. I have a causal friend who hits that doing heavy attacks with a pet and daedric prey. If you think it's hard and requires "copious amounts of homework" to hit 15k then idk what to tell you. You don't even have to do mechanics in normal dungeons as they barely touch you. You're way off base here this game isn't that hard on normal content yet players still struggle with it because they are lazy or bad or both.

Magdalina · December 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's not about "git gud" or "L2P"; whatever the f these terms are. People (or gamers) don't realize that stupid terms, as these, can be insulting and not even relating to what folks expressing. Not everybody are good game players, in general. For any game, the more you play, you more you should become more comfortable and become better. In ESO, its contents become easier with the more CP and better build you have and the better you have become acclimated to your skillsets and rotations. Any player/toon with 300 CP and more can comfortably solo those normal dungeons; however, any toon/player within 300 CP or less will experience a bit more challenge with vet dungeons. I'm willing to bet those thrashing others with git gud or L2P are just knuckeheads needing to bash on others just to make themselves feel relevance.

So, don't sweat it or feel bad. You'll get better.

This is unfortunately not true. And while this may not sound nice...it is about L2P(I will agree it's definitely the case for the whole group, not just the OP though). And there's nothing so bad about that. When you're new to something, you're normally bad at it just because you don't yet know how to do it - so if you wanna get better, you'll have to learn some things just like everyone else did.

There're HEAPS of 300+(and even 600+) cp people in eso who don't know ANYTHING about the game. Not just they cannot solo "those normal dungeons", they cannot even pull more than 5k dps on their own nor survive tanking while having 50k+ health. Meanwhile it's totally possible for a 0 cp <lvl 50 toon to solo most normals if they know what they're doing. CP will not make you better by default. Realizing that you are currently...underperforming and consciously putting effort into trying to improve will. But there's that very important step here which a lot of people are missing. You need to realize you're underperforming first. Then you can either choose to improve by figuring out build/rotation/mechanics etc or you can accept this and stick to content where it won't matter(such as open world or normal dungeons I) if that's your cup of tea.

I'm just being realistic. It takes a long time and a lot of playtime to get to 300 CP and more, and the more playtime you put in, the more you would know. Of course, you're not going to know everything. Heck, I have been playing ESO for over 2 years now and well over 1000 CP, but, I certainly don't know everything there is to know about ESO and its endgame contents. However, I have to give peeps more credit here. You can roll around with your toons in just underwear and get more than 10k dps, even in the lower CP bracket. If anyone with 300 CP and higher and seemingly not knowing what the hell they are doing, then, perhaps, it's probably a family member, friend or somebody else using that toon and just messing around for the first time in the ESO; particularly if you're 600 CP and higher. Come on now.. gotta give peeps more credit than that. Ha ha.

As for the level 50 and lower that you say can solo a normal dungeon; sure.. but, they are probably higher CP players who created a new toon and it's only showing the new toon's level and not their CP. Having CP is what allows you to plus up on your passives on the constellations; which in turn, offers more damage mitigation, improved resources management and better dps capability. Therefore, the more CP you have and able to add on to your constellation passives, the easier or better things can get. Of course, experience and good build, weapon, skillsets, abilities and rotations are major aspects; however, you can't dps if you're dead or keep on dying because your damage mitigation or resistance factors are lower. Heck, even certain maxed out CP toons are wiping (or dying) at dolmens, because they probably have on those light ass armors and forgot or didn't throw up the good shield in time. Plus, with Morrowind patch with many things/toons passives and abilities nerfed and incoming damages from bosses and even certain adds are packing more heat (some with 4-8k for certain adds alone and 9-18k from bosses), many non-CP toons and lower CP toons are even having challenges at dolmens. Thus, being a newer player with non-CP or lower level CP toon, you're not going to solo any normal dungeons more readily. I'm not giving those less credit, but, I'm just being realistic. If those non-CP toons/players can, then, I am willing to suspect something is fishy.. i.e, CE, perhaps.

You're overrating CP. I feel really a lot of people make that mistake. Yes, CP are very powerful in the right hands. What CP mean though(besides time invested which is not really an indication of anything - you can hit high cp just questing in the open world) is the ceiling your character can achieve. The more CP you have, the higher/better results you can achieve. But it doesn't mean you necessarily will achieve it - even if you have 1k CP you're not going to achieve much if you're a bow heavy attack spammer in full heavy armor or something along these lines.

I have levelled a brand new toon on EU recently; I main NA so this means absolutely brand new for me, no CP, no crafting alts, no anything, only my knowledge about the game. I won't like and say I was magically able to pull 40k dps at level 10 or something but a few times I have actually had to carry cp players through normal dungeons as a <lvl 50 lowbie(I'm serious here, I wish I was kidding!). Because I knew what I was doing and they obviously didn't. It wasn't as easy as roflstomping everything on my maxed out NA toons but it was possible.

Back when CP were just being introduced, me and a friend 2 manned most vet dungeons(HMs too) at barely 200 cp, so it's so funny to see people throw the "<300 cp=bad player" argument around. Yes things have changed since then but not quite so much.

Tl;dr : make no mistake, CP on their own don't and cannot make a bad player good or even decent. They can only make a decent player better, and a good player great. YOU are the one who makes your character decent/good by learning stuff about the game.

There is no mistake about it. That's why the dev established the CP tree here and in Skyrim. I'm sensing you're just pulling my leg, though. I'll just leave it at that..

Ok, well, hold on.. If you are not really pulling my leg, then go ahead and take a non-CP toon into a CP campaign in Cyrodiil, or duel another toon with 300 CP or more. Also, if you say so, as not too many peeps are capable of 2 manning a vet dungeon with 200 CP or so. If so, then you must be that really good of a gamer, and good for you on such feat. I don't think too many can do that.

Wait a second, I thought we're talking PvE here ;P PvE enemies are always the same. PvP is a whole different story due to the variability of your enemy.

And no, I'm not pulling your leg lol. I honestly think CP's overrated because I have seen and keep seeing soooooo many bad high CP players and yet I know just how good can an experienced low CP be(despite their low CP). If someone can't finish a dungeon, I guarantee you it's 99.99% lacking skill/gear/mechanics knowledge rather than CP. And I have seen way too many proves that more CP=/=more skill/gear/mechanics knowledge.

Linaleah · December 2017

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I grow tired of the L2P crowd with 690 CPs, in gold or purple gear.

So in other words, experienced players that know what they're doing.

If someone is dying that much on ANY dungeon on normal, they absolutely need to Learn To Play. I walked into normal Mazzatun to learn the mechanics ALONE, and walked out having died less than three times, even with the totem illusion thing.

Maybe. It’s always assumed the person stinks.

I give them a break. It’s easy for me because of 690 CPs, all gold gear and understanding of the mechanics. It’s not fair to assume a new player sucks because he has none of those.

I’d like to see you solo Mazzatun normal with no CP and green gear.

So your defense is that you would like to see me solo a dungeon while pretending to play like a total idiot that:

Refuses to get proper gear
Refuses to get proper CP before queuing for hard content
And probably doesn't know their rotations.

Yeah, no. That is not a defense. That is the very definition of a L2P issue, in other words, entirely user error.

they weren't queueing for a hard dungeon. they were queueing for a random. and got an awful luck of getting the hardest unforgiving, when it comes to mechanics

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Everyone that's defending the inexperienced players is just conveniently ignoring the fact that google is a thing.

Literally just about everyone has a smartphone these days that is capable of browsing the web. If something is giving these players problems, a simple "I am going to google this dungeon" line in text chat and then a 5-minute skim-read would solve any issues with them not knowing the mechanics.

Hell, anyone that has the ability to think for themselves SHOULD be looking up dungeon/trial mechanics before they even start looking for their first run of them. Just half an hour or less of research will potentially save the user HOURS of getting slaughtered to mechanics they haven't learned yet in dungeons.

It's a simple matter of willful ignorance and laziness.

Have to agree here. There are too many people who are high CP that still do not understand the basics of the game. It's ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k dps with no animation canceling (the only thing in PvE that requires any sort of skill to do) so there is no excuse for all of these sub-10k dps players i get paired up with in the group finder.

Ignorance brought on by laziness accompanied by the fact that these players feel no shame for making your dungeon run take 3 times as long because they can't be bothered to put in the minimal effort.

***. its not ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k without animation canceling. you get maybe 13 by trying pretty darn hard, while not at the same time trying to deal with mechanics. moreover, what animation canceling requires is not skill. it requires twitch reflexes, good ping and dummy practice to get your rotation right. last but not least. so what you are requiring here is that a player before stepping foot into any kind of content... does homework. copious. amounts. of homework. because random dungeon means anything could pop which means you are requiring players to learn the mechanics of every. single. dungeon. in the game. before they get to experience them. on normal.

yikes.

Not at all. And yes it's ridiculously easy to hit 15k. I have a causal friend who hits that doing heavy attacks with a pet and daedric prey. If you think it's hard and requires "copious amounts of homework" to hit 15k then idk what to tell you. You don't even have to do mechanics in normal dungeons as they barely touch you. You're way off base here this game isn't that hard on normal content yet players still struggle with it because they are lazy or bad or both.

either we are using different addon to track dps, or i don't know counting AoE damage or something, but on my stamblade for instance, on BiS but actualy proper gear and food? I get nowhere NEAR 15k with just heavy attacks. I get to about 10k when I try to actualy get a rotation off. at least dummies don't move around, in a dungeon, mobs move around, stuff gets dropped on the ground etc. no. its NOT easy for an average player with a ping above 200 get to 15-20k.

normal dungeon mechanics KILL people. you know people who don't have their cp maxed, who might still be leveling skill lines and don't have all their passives, who haven't gathered enough skyshards or skill points in general to unlock all those passives. even with healer spamming burst heals, i have seen people die to normal dungeon mechanics. constantly. even easy dungeons that even I can solo on normal.

meanwhile. I have seen a good player PROVE just how much tight rotation with good twitch reflexes makes a difference, by hitting 30k with a very VERY wrong gear for them. is it skill? honestly? you either have twitchy reflexes and good ping. or you do not. you can practice your rotation for a while and improve a bit. but your ceiling is going to be pretty low anyways.

Apache_Kid · December 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I grow tired of the L2P crowd with 690 CPs, in gold or purple gear.

So in other words, experienced players that know what they're doing.

If someone is dying that much on ANY dungeon on normal, they absolutely need to Learn To Play. I walked into normal Mazzatun to learn the mechanics ALONE, and walked out having died less than three times, even with the totem illusion thing.

Maybe. It’s always assumed the person stinks.

I give them a break. It’s easy for me because of 690 CPs, all gold gear and understanding of the mechanics. It’s not fair to assume a new player sucks because he has none of those.

I’d like to see you solo Mazzatun normal with no CP and green gear.

So your defense is that you would like to see me solo a dungeon while pretending to play like a total idiot that:

Refuses to get proper gear
Refuses to get proper CP before queuing for hard content
And probably doesn't know their rotations.

Yeah, no. That is not a defense. That is the very definition of a L2P issue, in other words, entirely user error.

they weren't queueing for a hard dungeon. they were queueing for a random. and got an awful luck of getting the hardest unforgiving, when it comes to mechanics

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Everyone that's defending the inexperienced players is just conveniently ignoring the fact that google is a thing.

Literally just about everyone has a smartphone these days that is capable of browsing the web. If something is giving these players problems, a simple "I am going to google this dungeon" line in text chat and then a 5-minute skim-read would solve any issues with them not knowing the mechanics.

Hell, anyone that has the ability to think for themselves SHOULD be looking up dungeon/trial mechanics before they even start looking for their first run of them. Just half an hour or less of research will potentially save the user HOURS of getting slaughtered to mechanics they haven't learned yet in dungeons.

It's a simple matter of willful ignorance and laziness.

Have to agree here. There are too many people who are high CP that still do not understand the basics of the game. It's ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k dps with no animation canceling (the only thing in PvE that requires any sort of skill to do) so there is no excuse for all of these sub-10k dps players i get paired up with in the group finder.

Ignorance brought on by laziness accompanied by the fact that these players feel no shame for making your dungeon run take 3 times as long because they can't be bothered to put in the minimal effort.

***. its not ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k without animation canceling. you get maybe 13 by trying pretty darn hard, while not at the same time trying to deal with mechanics. moreover, what animation canceling requires is not skill. it requires twitch reflexes, good ping and dummy practice to get your rotation right. last but not least. so what you are requiring here is that a player before stepping foot into any kind of content... does homework. copious. amounts. of homework. because random dungeon means anything could pop which means you are requiring players to learn the mechanics of every. single. dungeon. in the game. before they get to experience them. on normal.

yikes.

Not at all. And yes it's ridiculously easy to hit 15k. I have a causal friend who hits that doing heavy attacks with a pet and daedric prey. If you think it's hard and requires "copious amounts of homework" to hit 15k then idk what to tell you. You don't even have to do mechanics in normal dungeons as they barely touch you. You're way off base here this game isn't that hard on normal content yet players still struggle with it because they are lazy or bad or both.

either we are using different addon to track dps, or i don't know counting AoE damage or something, but on my stamblade for instance, on BiS but actualy proper gear and food? I get nowhere NEAR 15k with just heavy attacks. I get to about 10k when I try to actualy get a rotation off. at least dummies don't move around, in a dungeon, mobs move around, stuff gets dropped on the ground etc. no. its NOT easy for an average player with a ping above 200 get to 15-20k.

normal dungeon mechanics KILL people. you know people who don't have their cp maxed, who might still be leveling skill lines and don't have all their passives, who haven't gathered enough skyshards or skill points in general to unlock all those passives. even with healer spamming burst heals, i have seen people die to normal dungeon mechanics. constantly. even easy dungeons that even I can solo on normal.

meanwhile. I have seen a good player PROVE just how much tight rotation with good twitch reflexes makes a difference, by hitting 30k with a very VERY wrong gear for them. is it skill? honestly? you either have twitchy reflexes and good ping. or you do not. you can practice your rotation for a while and improve a bit. but your ceiling is going to be pretty low anyways.

I never said you could hit it doing only heavy attacks.

All the things you mentioned about gear and not having skills.... why are they doing a dungeon then? I didn't queue for even a NORMAL dungeon til I was CP 160 and had a set of gear crafted for me and hunted for skyshards. Why? Because I'm a courteous person who actually cares about wasting the time of others. Players shouldn't jump into unknown content without doing some sort of research. That could be going through your skills on your own and actually reading the tooltips and figuring out which ones are your hardest hitting or googling a skill bar to copy or have at least 1 full 5 piece set of gear that supports their build. If the worst player does simply that they will be able to beat almost every normal dungeon in the game. Yes the DLC dungeons are harder but you don't need to start with those.

All I'm asking is for like an hour of every players time where take that smartphone they always have in their hands and read about how the game works. Or ask in a zone or guild chat for someone to help you. I've helped countless players who have asked improve their play-style ten-fold. Why? Because it takes very little effort to go from terrible to somewhat acceptable, while the jump to go from average to highly skilled is higher. That's how progression works in this game. None of what I'm asking players to do is unreasonable. If you think it is then this conversation isnt going to go anywhere.

Linaleah · December 2017

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I grow tired of the L2P crowd with 690 CPs, in gold or purple gear.

So in other words, experienced players that know what they're doing.

If someone is dying that much on ANY dungeon on normal, they absolutely need to Learn To Play. I walked into normal Mazzatun to learn the mechanics ALONE, and walked out having died less than three times, even with the totem illusion thing.

Maybe. It’s always assumed the person stinks.

I give them a break. It’s easy for me because of 690 CPs, all gold gear and understanding of the mechanics. It’s not fair to assume a new player sucks because he has none of those.

I’d like to see you solo Mazzatun normal with no CP and green gear.

So your defense is that you would like to see me solo a dungeon while pretending to play like a total idiot that:

Refuses to get proper gear
Refuses to get proper CP before queuing for hard content
And probably doesn't know their rotations.

Yeah, no. That is not a defense. That is the very definition of a L2P issue, in other words, entirely user error.

they weren't queueing for a hard dungeon. they were queueing for a random. and got an awful luck of getting the hardest unforgiving, when it comes to mechanics

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Everyone that's defending the inexperienced players is just conveniently ignoring the fact that google is a thing.

Literally just about everyone has a smartphone these days that is capable of browsing the web. If something is giving these players problems, a simple "I am going to google this dungeon" line in text chat and then a 5-minute skim-read would solve any issues with them not knowing the mechanics.

Hell, anyone that has the ability to think for themselves SHOULD be looking up dungeon/trial mechanics before they even start looking for their first run of them. Just half an hour or less of research will potentially save the user HOURS of getting slaughtered to mechanics they haven't learned yet in dungeons.

It's a simple matter of willful ignorance and laziness.

Have to agree here. There are too many people who are high CP that still do not understand the basics of the game. It's ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k dps with no animation canceling (the only thing in PvE that requires any sort of skill to do) so there is no excuse for all of these sub-10k dps players i get paired up with in the group finder.

Ignorance brought on by laziness accompanied by the fact that these players feel no shame for making your dungeon run take 3 times as long because they can't be bothered to put in the minimal effort.

***. its not ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k without animation canceling. you get maybe 13 by trying pretty darn hard, while not at the same time trying to deal with mechanics. moreover, what animation canceling requires is not skill. it requires twitch reflexes, good ping and dummy practice to get your rotation right. last but not least. so what you are requiring here is that a player before stepping foot into any kind of content... does homework. copious. amounts. of homework. because random dungeon means anything could pop which means you are requiring players to learn the mechanics of every. single. dungeon. in the game. before they get to experience them. on normal.

yikes.

Not at all. And yes it's ridiculously easy to hit 15k. I have a causal friend who hits that doing heavy attacks with a pet and daedric prey. If you think it's hard and requires "copious amounts of homework" to hit 15k then idk what to tell you. You don't even have to do mechanics in normal dungeons as they barely touch you. You're way off base here this game isn't that hard on normal content yet players still struggle with it because they are lazy or bad or both.

either we are using different addon to track dps, or i don't know counting AoE damage or something, but on my stamblade for instance, on BiS but actualy proper gear and food? I get nowhere NEAR 15k with just heavy attacks. I get to about 10k when I try to actualy get a rotation off. at least dummies don't move around, in a dungeon, mobs move around, stuff gets dropped on the ground etc. no. its NOT easy for an average player with a ping above 200 get to 15-20k.

normal dungeon mechanics KILL people. you know people who don't have their cp maxed, who might still be leveling skill lines and don't have all their passives, who haven't gathered enough skyshards or skill points in general to unlock all those passives. even with healer spamming burst heals, i have seen people die to normal dungeon mechanics. constantly. even easy dungeons that even I can solo on normal.

meanwhile. I have seen a good player PROVE just how much tight rotation with good twitch reflexes makes a difference, by hitting 30k with a very VERY wrong gear for them. is it skill? honestly? you either have twitchy reflexes and good ping. or you do not. you can practice your rotation for a while and improve a bit. but your ceiling is going to be pretty low anyways.

I never said you could hit it doing only heavy attacks.

All the things you mentioned about gear and not having skills.... why are they doing a dungeon then? I didn't queue for even a NORMAL dungeon til I was CP 160 and had a set of gear crafted for me and hunted for skyshards. Why? Because I'm a courteous person who actually cares about wasting the time of others. Players shouldn't jump into unknown content without doing some sort of research. That could be going through your skills on your own and actually reading the tooltips and figuring out which ones are your hardest hitting or googling a skill bar to copy or have at least 1 full 5 piece set of gear that supports their build. If the worst player does simply that they will be able to beat almost every normal dungeon in the game. Yes the DLC dungeons are harder but you don't need to start with those.

All I'm asking is for like an hour of every players time where take that smartphone they always have in their hands and read about how the game works. Or ask in a zone or guild chat for someone to help you. I've helped countless players who have asked improve their play-style ten-fold. Why? Because it takes very little effort to go from terrible to somewhat acceptable, while the jump to go from average to highly skilled is higher. That's how progression works in this game. None of what I'm asking players to do is unreasonable. If you think it is then this conversation isnt going to go anywhere.

dungeons become available at level 10. UI immediately tells you so. game encourages you to try them. it was also recently changed so that new players get earlier dungeons, you know the ones that prior to one tamriel you did at early levels. dungeons come in variable difficulty already to allow players to ease into the whole running of the dungeons. waiting until you are max level results in situation like OP where the first dungeon they got as a random, was the hardest in the game.

that is how progression works in this game.

that is what those early dungeons on NORMAL are designed for. now I personaly didn't go into random dungeons at all, before getting some skills leveled, getting some gear put together and most importantly getting some practicing done with my guildies. but that's me. that's NOT however a foregone conclusion for everyone. random dungeon finder that you can queue up solo for exists for a reason. and that reason is to give players opportunity to experience that content even if they don't have a guild and/or friends yet.

moreover. some people "gasp" enjoy learning by doing. for some people its not fun to figure things out that were already figured out for them.

as for heavy attacks, I was replying to a post that directly claimed that their friend is hitting it by doing heavy attacks. meanwhile Ive been setting up my skills on my bars in a way that avoids constant bar swapping as much as possible, becasue half the time my bar doesn't swap when i hit the button, so i hit it again, only to have it suddenly swap and immediately swap back. I cannot hit the skills quickly becasue they don't always reliable fire as I hit them so i either slow down = dps drop or button mash which in this game wanna guess? dps drop. but sure, lets require people to perfect their rotations to do fungal grotto 1, a dungeon that even I can solo with my bad ping and my messy rotation and my under 15k single target dps and my not BiS gear. really? really? maybe you are the one that shouldn't be pugging if your requirements are that high.

and back tp the whole rotations/gear sets. etc. the annoying part about them, even though they are finally starting to remember that hey, not everyone has maxed cp and might be in that stage where they are just starting to farm their BiS and need a suggestion for starting gear set. but they are STILL assuming that you will get all the buffs from other people, they are STILL assuming minimal to no mistakes in play so dps get suggestions for max dps specs that require group synergy and perfect support to work as intended.

this. is. a game. its a leisure activity for most of us. the fact that I can just pick up a book, relax on a couch and read it, or grab a piece of paper with some pain and start painting, or any number of other casual hobbies people do for fun, but no. not this one, this one is apparently a job, or at least a profession. no casuals who just want to jump in and play around as they go along - allowed.

Dapper Dinosaur · December 2017

@Linaleah

Casuals that want to inconvenience everyone they get matched with due to laziness are free to do so, just like the people they're queued with are free to refuse to put up with it and kick them.

Linaleah · December 2017

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

@Linaleah

Casuals that want to inconvenience everyone they get matched with due to laziness are free to do so, just like the people they're queued with are free to refuse to put up with it and kick them.

hardcores that want to inconvenience everyone with their demands and their complaints and their insistence on skipping story and bosses due to their single minded need to get it over with as fast as possible are as much of a subject to a kick, as casuals are.

you can always run with premade groups of likeminded people if our casual cooties are oh so annoying for you to deal with.

Dapper Dinosaur · December 2017

People running dungeons faster are doing the exact opposite of inconveniencing people. They are NOWHERE NEAR "as much of a subject to kick" as people that don't know the first thing about playing this game and are literally dead weight.

If you want to experience the story, you will literally have HUNDREDS of chances to do so.

Linaleah · December 2017

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

People running dungeons faster are doing the exact opposite of inconveniencing people. They are NOWHERE NEAR "as much of a subject to kick" as people that don't know the first thing about playing this game and are literally dead weight.

If you want to experience the story, you will literally have HUNDREDS of chances to do so.

oh yeah, experiencing a story in a normal dungeon where one helpful person grabs the quest before you even zone in, so you either accept the short prompt or hope that next time you run it you will actualy get to hear what the story is even about. skipping bosses so that you can forget about getting dungeon achievements, at least they seem to have changed the story progression to it auto updating once you get to last boss. except if you are lucky, quest giver shows up immediately for you to turn the quest in before "getting removed from the dungeon" timer expires. those sprinting heroes that just run off on their own, while half the mobs they sprinted past, go for everyone else in the group and kill them over and over, while the speedy hero is killing bosses to far away from the rest of the group to be able to loot them.

so much convenience. so helpful. NOT.

these are NORMAL DUNGEONS. they are MEANT for people to learn the game. you want speed runs and performance benchmarks etc? DO. VET.

Slick_007 · December 2017

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

My character isn't max CP, but he is over the 160 point and has reasonable gear... but far from bleeding edge. But that's part of my point. If I MUST have the bleeding edge gear and be ultra-optimized in order to have ANY chance of success, then the content is too hard.

i havent done this dungeon but unless you were carrying the group, and it sounds like you werent from other peoples comments (that wasnt a shot at you) it sounds like your build is wrong. its more about your build than your gear. my first toon was really cool, i took abilities i liked that should do some decent damage. except it just didnt gel. i had no survivability and dead means no damage. i changed my build first and immediately noticed a huge difference. then i changed my gear to match what i wanted out of that build and noticed a smaller improvement. so my suggestion is take a hard look at your build. im not saying to just go out and repeat someone elses build. I read a guide, and used that as a base and made slight changes to it. ignored the armour guide totally and im quite happy with it now.

Dapper Dinosaur · December 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

People running dungeons faster are doing the exact opposite of inconveniencing people. They are NOWHERE NEAR "as much of a subject to kick" as people that don't know the first thing about playing this game and are literally dead weight.

If you want to experience the story, you will literally have HUNDREDS of chances to do so.

oh yeah, experiencing a story in a normal dungeon where one helpful person grabs the quest before you even zone in, so you either accept the short prompt or hope that next time you run it you will actualy get to hear what the story is even about. skipping bosses so that you can forget about getting dungeon achievements, at least they seem to have changed the story progression to it auto updating once you get to last boss. except if you are lucky, quest giver shows up immediately for you to turn the quest in before "getting removed from the dungeon" timer expires. those sprinting heroes that just run off on their own, while half the mobs they sprinted past, go for everyone else in the group and kill them over and over, while the speedy hero is killing bosses to far away from the rest of the group to be able to loot them.

so much convenience. so helpful. NOT.

these are NORMAL DUNGEONS. they are MEANT for people to learn the game. you want speed runs and performance benchmarks etc? DO. VET.

You can literally just not accept the quest if you really care so much, and then just do it on your own later. Or you could do it on another character.This is a non-issue.

You don't have to kill every boss in one go to get dungeon achievements. You can get them by just eventually killing them once each. This is a non-issue.

If you can't keep up with someone that is taking roughly 75% of the mob aggro and you're going down, that means your build is utterly trash and it should be a nice wake-up call.

You are suggesting going to the veteran difficulty, which by definition makes the dungeon harder and adds significant amounts of health to everything, for speedruns. That's legitimately hilarious.

Apache_Kid · December 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I grow tired of the L2P crowd with 690 CPs, in gold or purple gear.

So in other words, experienced players that know what they're doing.

If someone is dying that much on ANY dungeon on normal, they absolutely need to Learn To Play. I walked into normal Mazzatun to learn the mechanics ALONE, and walked out having died less than three times, even with the totem illusion thing.

Maybe. It’s always assumed the person stinks.

I give them a break. It’s easy for me because of 690 CPs, all gold gear and understanding of the mechanics. It’s not fair to assume a new player sucks because he has none of those.

I’d like to see you solo Mazzatun normal with no CP and green gear.

So your defense is that you would like to see me solo a dungeon while pretending to play like a total idiot that:

Refuses to get proper gear
Refuses to get proper CP before queuing for hard content
And probably doesn't know their rotations.

Yeah, no. That is not a defense. That is the very definition of a L2P issue, in other words, entirely user error.

they weren't queueing for a hard dungeon. they were queueing for a random. and got an awful luck of getting the hardest unforgiving, when it comes to mechanics

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Everyone that's defending the inexperienced players is just conveniently ignoring the fact that google is a thing.

Literally just about everyone has a smartphone these days that is capable of browsing the web. If something is giving these players problems, a simple "I am going to google this dungeon" line in text chat and then a 5-minute skim-read would solve any issues with them not knowing the mechanics.

Hell, anyone that has the ability to think for themselves SHOULD be looking up dungeon/trial mechanics before they even start looking for their first run of them. Just half an hour or less of research will potentially save the user HOURS of getting slaughtered to mechanics they haven't learned yet in dungeons.

It's a simple matter of willful ignorance and laziness.

Have to agree here. There are too many people who are high CP that still do not understand the basics of the game. It's ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k dps with no animation canceling (the only thing in PvE that requires any sort of skill to do) so there is no excuse for all of these sub-10k dps players i get paired up with in the group finder.

Ignorance brought on by laziness accompanied by the fact that these players feel no shame for making your dungeon run take 3 times as long because they can't be bothered to put in the minimal effort.

***. its not ridiculously easy to hit 15-20k without animation canceling. you get maybe 13 by trying pretty darn hard, while not at the same time trying to deal with mechanics. moreover, what animation canceling requires is not skill. it requires twitch reflexes, good ping and dummy practice to get your rotation right. last but not least. so what you are requiring here is that a player before stepping foot into any kind of content... does homework. copious. amounts. of homework. because random dungeon means anything could pop which means you are requiring players to learn the mechanics of every. single. dungeon. in the game. before they get to experience them. on normal.

yikes.

Not at all. And yes it's ridiculously easy to hit 15k. I have a causal friend who hits that doing heavy attacks with a pet and daedric prey. If you think it's hard and requires "copious amounts of homework" to hit 15k then idk what to tell you. You don't even have to do mechanics in normal dungeons as they barely touch you. You're way off base here this game isn't that hard on normal content yet players still struggle with it because they are lazy or bad or both.

either we are using different addon to track dps, or i don't know counting AoE damage or something, but on my stamblade for instance, on BiS but actualy proper gear and food? I get nowhere NEAR 15k with just heavy attacks. I get to about 10k when I try to actualy get a rotation off. at least dummies don't move around, in a dungeon, mobs move around, stuff gets dropped on the ground etc. no. its NOT easy for an average player with a ping above 200 get to 15-20k.

normal dungeon mechanics KILL people. you know people who don't have their cp maxed, who might still be leveling skill lines and don't have all their passives, who haven't gathered enough skyshards or skill points in general to unlock all those passives. even with healer spamming burst heals, i have seen people die to normal dungeon mechanics. constantly. even easy dungeons that even I can solo on normal.

meanwhile. I have seen a good player PROVE just how much tight rotation with good twitch reflexes makes a difference, by hitting 30k with a very VERY wrong gear for them. is it skill? honestly? you either have twitchy reflexes and good ping. or you do not. you can practice your rotation for a while and improve a bit. but your ceiling is going to be pretty low anyways.

I never said you could hit it doing only heavy attacks.

All the things you mentioned about gear and not having skills.... why are they doing a dungeon then? I didn't queue for even a NORMAL dungeon til I was CP 160 and had a set of gear crafted for me and hunted for skyshards. Why? Because I'm a courteous person who actually cares about wasting the time of others. Players shouldn't jump into unknown content without doing some sort of research. That could be going through your skills on your own and actually reading the tooltips and figuring out which ones are your hardest hitting or googling a skill bar to copy or have at least 1 full 5 piece set of gear that supports their build. If the worst player does simply that they will be able to beat almost every normal dungeon in the game. Yes the DLC dungeons are harder but you don't need to start with those.

All I'm asking is for like an hour of every players time where take that smartphone they always have in their hands and read about how the game works. Or ask in a zone or guild chat for someone to help you. I've helped countless players who have asked improve their play-style ten-fold. Why? Because it takes very little effort to go from terrible to somewhat acceptable, while the jump to go from average to highly skilled is higher. That's how progression works in this game. None of what I'm asking players to do is unreasonable. If you think it is then this conversation isnt going to go anywhere.

dungeons become available at level 10. UI immediately tells you so. game encourages you to try them. it was also recently changed so that new players get earlier dungeons, you know the ones that prior to one tamriel you did at early levels. dungeons come in variable difficulty already to allow players to ease into the whole running of the dungeons. waiting until you are max level results in situation like OP where the first dungeon they got as a random, was the hardest in the game.

that is how progression works in this game.

that is what those early dungeons on NORMAL are designed for. now I personaly didn't go into random dungeons at all, before getting some skills leveled, getting some gear put together and most importantly getting some practicing done with my guildies. but that's me. that's NOT however a foregone conclusion for everyone. random dungeon finder that you can queue up solo for exists for a reason. and that reason is to give players opportunity to experience that content even if they don't have a guild and/or friends yet.

moreover. some people "gasp" enjoy learning by doing. for some people its not fun to figure things out that were already figured out for them.

as for heavy attacks, I was replying to a post that directly claimed that their friend is hitting it by doing heavy attacks. meanwhile Ive been setting up my skills on my bars in a way that avoids constant bar swapping as much as possible, becasue half the time my bar doesn't swap when i hit the button, so i hit it again, only to have it suddenly swap and immediately swap back. I cannot hit the skills quickly becasue they don't always reliable fire as I hit them so i either slow down = dps drop or button mash which in this game wanna guess? dps drop. but sure, lets require people to perfect their rotations to do fungal grotto 1, a dungeon that even I can solo with my bad ping and my messy rotation and my under 15k single target dps and my not BiS gear. really? really? maybe you are the one that shouldn't be pugging if your requirements are that high.

and back tp the whole rotations/gear sets. etc. the annoying part about them, even though they are finally starting to remember that hey, not everyone has maxed cp and might be in that stage where they are just starting to farm their BiS and need a suggestion for starting gear set. but they are STILL assuming that you will get all the buffs from other people, they are STILL assuming minimal to no mistakes in play so dps get suggestions for max dps specs that require group synergy and perfect support to work as intended.

this. is. a game. its a leisure activity for most of us. the fact that I can just pick up a book, relax on a couch and read it, or grab a piece of paper with some pain and start painting, or any number of other casual hobbies people do for fun, but no. not this one, this one is apparently a job, or at least a profession. no casuals who just want to jump in and play around as they go along - allowed.

The original post you commented on was me lamenting the players who have 100s of CP and are still terrible at the game. I have no problem with people who have not reached level 50 or in the 100 cp range that don't understand the game. You are mentioning learning mechanics yet keep mentioning normal dungeons like fungal grotto 1 where you don't need to do anything. This is NOT the content or the types of players I am angry at. I gave how I personally handled dungeons as an example. I don't expect anyone else to do that but I know there are others that feel the same way. If you have 100s of CP and queue into veteran dungeons doing less dps than the tank then you're not only a casual/terrible player but a terrible person for wasting the time of others.

You acted as if I was calling out newer players who haven't learned when I'm calling out the players who clearly have lots of CP yet don't know mechanics or what abilites to use and when to use them. Go look at the original post you quoted of mine please and tell me where I attacked new players.

The type of players I have a problem with are the ones like guy who we got paired in a veteran dungeon who was a DPS role yet strictly did resto staff heavy attacks the whole. Time. He was 595 CP. So yes casual players who want to take hours on a dungeon can *** around all the want in the normal queues but I want them to either improve or stay out of the veteran queues. It's that simple. The only time I mentioned normal content was when I said they struggle with it because they are bad still with high CP.

Edit: Furthermore, this may be a leisure activity but it's not the same as painting a picture or reading a book or watching tv. When you queue into a dungeon and select your role you are saying that you can adequately perform that role. If you can't, the dungeon takes longer thus wasting the time of others. If you are bad at reading a book and have to go slowly you are not affecting anyone but yourself. I can't believe you could make that comparison. For normal dungeons it doesn't really matter as one good player can still carry quickly but for veteran dungeons there should absolutely be standards.

Linaleah · December 2017

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

People running dungeons faster are doing the exact opposite of inconveniencing people. They are NOWHERE NEAR "as much of a subject to kick" as people that don't know the first thing about playing this game and are literally dead weight.

If you want to experience the story, you will literally have HUNDREDS of chances to do so.

oh yeah, experiencing a story in a normal dungeon where one helpful person grabs the quest before you even zone in, so you either accept the short prompt or hope that next time you run it you will actualy get to hear what the story is even about. skipping bosses so that you can forget about getting dungeon achievements, at least they seem to have changed the story progression to it auto updating once you get to last boss. except if you are lucky, quest giver shows up immediately for you to turn the quest in before "getting removed from the dungeon" timer expires. those sprinting heroes that just run off on their own, while half the mobs they sprinted past, go for everyone else in the group and kill them over and over, while the speedy hero is killing bosses to far away from the rest of the group to be able to loot them.

so much convenience. so helpful. NOT.

these are NORMAL DUNGEONS. they are MEANT for people to learn the game. you want speed runs and performance benchmarks etc? DO. VET.

You can literally just not accept the quest if you really care so much, and then just do it on your own later. Or you could do it on another character.This is a non-issue.

You don't have to kill every boss in one go to get dungeon achievements. You can get them by just eventually killing them once each. This is a non-issue.

If you can't keep up with someone that is taking roughly 75% of the mob aggro and you're going down, that means your build is utterly trash and it should be a nice wake-up call.

You are suggesting going to the veteran difficulty, which by definition makes the dungeon harder and adds significant amounts of health to everything, for speedruns. That's legitimately hilarious.

it is absolutely an issue.

and yes I'm suggesting going to veteran if you are bound and determined to have requirements for other people. NORMAL is for learning, for questing, for exploring and guess what? while I can now solo some of the normal dungoens, i cannot solo all of them. and it took me over a year to get to this point. players should NOT be punished by YOUR tiredness of the dungeons by not being allowed to enjoy, understand LEARN them. OP queued up for NORMAL.

and lol about trash builds. the irony is... if one follows those recommended builds? they WILL die without dedicated tank/healer while trying to run after your speedy gonzales behind. becasue those build are built around someone else providing defensive, shields, etc. those builds are meant to be glass canons.

P.S. CP goes fast in this game, especially since it was changed to go faster early on. where exactly are these players supposed to learn? oh right, you are supposed to learn by looking at some videos of players who have mastered the game already and therefore don't make or account for the kind of mistakes inexperienced players are bound to make.