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Suggesting AOE Taunt!
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Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.
Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.
That was just one example, but there are plenty others.
Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Have had 5 axes in HM and did not find it any more challenging than 3 axes. I know plenty that have tanked it, including myself, that have not had an issue with the axes once they figured it out which has to do with understanding agro mechanics in this game.
The reality is, an AoE taunt would be a horrid crutch in that fight since it would clearly not be something that could be spammed. A tank that was challenged to tank the axes and used an AoE taunt as a crutch would be so worse off than they learned to do it correctly, even if their choice was to taunt each one.
Paul is correct in his statements.
So you’re of the opinion that just because something has been done and can be done by a miniscule population that it’s ok? After 3 years of huge balance changes and combat adjustments but everything good to go?
Sorry no, not buying this.
I have tanked it and I have seen others tank it. rarely EVER have I EVER seen anyone not have issues with this as well, and NOT just with the axes as I have explained countless times throughout this posts conversations.
So, you are of the opinion that just because it can be done, and done easily, you would rather a crutch that will fail you instead of figuring out how to do it right.
I but that. So, once the short length of the AoE taunt wears off and you will not be able to use it for awhile, what will you do then?
It will not be spamable by any means so it could not be relied on to keep agro on the axes, your primary and only real example you have provided. That is the point I made. It would be a crutch that would lead to more issues for the tank trying to use it instead of figuring out how to do it correctly. Heck, doing it right is so much better than what you suggest.
I’m of the opinion that because the game fails with the single target reticle system in many fights that adding in a supplemental skill to aid in dealing with this in addition to the lag and latency issues that everyone experiences differently, would ENHANCE actual gameplay to be consistent without overhauling the trials themselves or any huge zerver side adjustments that would cost millions for ZoS to implement correctly to alleviate said issues.
Having an AoE option to use in a short range with NPC limit would be useful in many Trials at certain fights and aggro pulls make it far to difficult to do with the inadequate single target reticle system in addition to lag and latency issues caused by distance, region, or any number of other issues that ZoS cannot fix in our current generation. So adding in a optional skill that would be useful for those types of pulls would enhance the players ability to offset these problems. The main taunt will always be the best for pulls because it reduces target resistances, but in fights where everything is chaotic and your target reticle cannot cope accurately with ping, lactency and lag then yes having said option will allow smoother gameplayEdited by Nelson_Rebel on November 23, 2017 6:02PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »
Thank you for your reasonable approach to this
It’s taxing when other people here want to instantly try to degrade or insult intelligence when we actively question something *sigh* people these days
But to answer your response, It’s not just the axes where the single reticle targeting system is inadequate but realistically most of the
other trials as well. The single target system on the reticle often fails to work properly in these areas due to mechanics, lag and latency issues
I can understand that you think it would trivilize dungeons which is a fair point, but I think the consecutive costs and limited range and numbers of affected NPC’s would effectively keep it a NICHE skill that performs well where the game fails. If those issues haven’t beeen fixes im 3 years then they cannot fix them and require an in game solution that has niche uses.
Problem solved with minimal impact
Again, I main a tank and am very familiar with normal and veteran dungeon content. If trials fixes need to happen, fix the trials fights. In dungeons, even a limited AOE taunt would be so effective that there would be no reason not to use it. Increased costs and limited targets just force tanks to focus into the AOE taunt even more. Tank builds would change to basically be nothing more than what they needed to be in order to spam the taunt as much as needed and then permablock. You say it would be a NICHE thing? No. No it would not. It would soon be the only form of tanking because it simplifies the content so much.
The point here, like with most of the changes/fixes ZOS makes, an ideal solution fixes just the content it needs to fix and doesn't have unintended consequences elsewhere. A fix to those trials fights that made it easier to keep track off and retaunt multiple axes or other enemies even with lag should focus on those trials fights. A solution that fixes that but also fundamentally changes the ideal strategy by which groups approach all other group dungeons is like trying to crack an egg with a sledgehammer. Its a whole game solution to a problem that only impacts a small amount of content.
I like tanking. Right now, tanking takes a certain amount of thinking and there are optimal ways to do pulls and hold certain bosses. Yeah, lag is a factor, unfortunately, buts that's true of all content. Healing and DPS also requires more awareness and strategy than spam heals and go nuclear on enemies. I would hate for the meta to become perma-blocking, aoe taunt spamming tanks with a back-up healer, and glass cannon DPS. The current system is harder but more interesting.
In short, fix the trials fights by adjusting the trials, not the entire game. The entire game doesn't need that fix.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.
Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.
That was just one example, but there are plenty others.
Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Have had 5 axes in HM and did not find it any more challenging than 3 axes. I know plenty that have tanked it, including myself, that have not had an issue with the axes once they figured it out which has to do with understanding agro mechanics in this game.
The reality is, an AoE taunt would be a horrid crutch in that fight since it would clearly not be something that could be spammed. A tank that was challenged to tank the axes and used an AoE taunt as a crutch would be so worse off than they learned to do it correctly, even if their choice was to taunt each one.
Paul is correct in his statements.
So you’re of the opinion that just because something has been done and can be done by a miniscule population that it’s ok? After 3 years of huge balance changes and combat adjustments but everything good to go?
Sorry no, not buying this.
I have tanked it and I have seen others tank it. rarely EVER have I EVER seen anyone not have issues with this as well, and NOT just with the axes as I have explained countless times throughout this posts conversations.
So, you are of the opinion that just because it can be done, and done easily, you would rather a crutch that will fail you instead of figuring out how to do it right.
I but that. So, once the short length of the AoE taunt wears off and you will not be able to use it for awhile, what will you do then?
It will not be spamable by any means so it could not be relied on to keep agro on the axes, your primary and only real example you have provided. That is the point I made. It would be a crutch that would lead to more issues for the tank trying to use it instead of figuring out how to do it correctly. Heck, doing it right is so much better than what you suggest.
I’m of the opinion that because the game fails with the single target reticle system in many fights.
You have yet to name one major fight where the tank has issues with tanking multiple targets. Just because some attempt to tank something is a more difficult manner does not mean there is a problem with designs of the game.
What strikes me most is that you are clamoring for an AoE taunt while we explain it is not needed in the situations you describe yet you do not bother asking how we tank the axes and lack any problems with them.
Oh, BTW, a tank that would require an AoE taunt to tank the axes will NEVER be able to tank vAA HM.
Meaning no offense, but do you want to set such limits on yourself by focusing on getting a crutch or figure out how to do it properly?
2 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.
Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.
That was just one example, but there are plenty others.
Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Have had 5 axes in HM and did not find it any more challenging than 3 axes. I know plenty that have tanked it, including myself, that have not had an issue with the axes once they figured it out which has to do with understanding agro mechanics in this game.
The reality is, an AoE taunt would be a horrid crutch in that fight since it would clearly not be something that could be spammed. A tank that was challenged to tank the axes and used an AoE taunt as a crutch would be so worse off than they learned to do it correctly, even if their choice was to taunt each one.
Paul is correct in his statements.
So you’re of the opinion that just because something has been done and can be done by a miniscule population that it’s ok? After 3 years of huge balance changes and combat adjustments but everything good to go?
Sorry no, not buying this.
I have tanked it and I have seen others tank it. rarely EVER have I EVER seen anyone not have issues with this as well, and NOT just with the axes as I have explained countless times throughout this posts conversations.
So, you are of the opinion that just because it can be done, and done easily, you would rather a crutch that will fail you instead of figuring out how to do it right.
I but that. So, once the short length of the AoE taunt wears off and you will not be able to use it for awhile, what will you do then?
It will not be spamable by any means so it could not be relied on to keep agro on the axes, your primary and only real example you have provided. That is the point I made. It would be a crutch that would lead to more issues for the tank trying to use it instead of figuring out how to do it correctly. Heck, doing it right is so much better than what you suggest.
I’m of the opinion that because the game fails with the single target reticle system in many fights.
You have yet to name one major fight where the tank has issues with tanking multiple targets. Just because some attempt to tank something is a more difficult manner does not mean there is a problem with designs of the game.
What strikes me most is that you are clamoring for an AoE taunt while we explain it is not needed in the situations you describe yet you do not bother asking how we tank the axes and lack any problems with them.
Oh, BTW, a tank that would require an AoE taunt to tank the axes will NEVER be able to tank vAA HM.
Meaning no offense, but do you want to set such limits on yourself by focusing on getting a crutch or figure out how to do it properly?
Because it has nothing to do with the fights themselves but the sheer number and proximity of enemies in any pull on ZoS’s servers in trials makes it very difficult to accurately target with the target reticle In EVERY mob pull
notably
vSO mobs, the second mob boss specifically
vDSA the 5th and Last mobs specifically
vMoL the mobs on the Twins and the Mob pull directly following the twins
vAA Axes specifically where targeting axes is not accurate
I have listed these in addition to the LAG AND LATENCY issues that people experience in varying degrees due to region. But screw them I guess?
Edited by Nelson_Rebel on November 23, 2017 6:20PM0 -
Rmmichael95✭✭I think there should be an AOE taunt but with notable limitations in use cases.
I suggest it being either a very expensive Werewolf skill, or a semi-expensive undaunted ultimate.
It would be cool if WW had a taunt but I always thought they should put it on the heavy or something (could still be aoe as the heavy hits up to 3 people.)Edited by Rmmichael95 on November 23, 2017 6:25PMMasters of the Imperial Harem
CP 660+
50 Magicka Dunmer Dragon Knight
50 Magicka Altmer Sorceror
50 Magicka Breton Templar
50 Magicka Altmer Templar
50 Stamina Orc Dragon Knight
50 Stamina Khajiit Night Blade
50 Stamina Redguard Sorceror
50 Argonian Sap Tank - retired
50 Templar Hybrid Redguard Werewolf
50 Magicka Altmer Proxy Night Blade
50 Argonian Balzing Shield
50 Stamina Bosmer Bow
50 Warden Argonian Tank Heals
50 Warden Hybrid Orc Werewolf0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.
Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.
That was just one example, but there are plenty others.
Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Have had 5 axes in HM and did not find it any more challenging than 3 axes. I know plenty that have tanked it, including myself, that have not had an issue with the axes once they figured it out which has to do with understanding agro mechanics in this game.
The reality is, an AoE taunt would be a horrid crutch in that fight since it would clearly not be something that could be spammed. A tank that was challenged to tank the axes and used an AoE taunt as a crutch would be so worse off than they learned to do it correctly, even if their choice was to taunt each one.
Paul is correct in his statements.
So you’re of the opinion that just because something has been done and can be done by a miniscule population that it’s ok? After 3 years of huge balance changes and combat adjustments but everything good to go?
Sorry no, not buying this.
I have tanked it and I have seen others tank it. rarely EVER have I EVER seen anyone not have issues with this as well, and NOT just with the axes as I have explained countless times throughout this posts conversations.
So, you are of the opinion that just because it can be done, and done easily, you would rather a crutch that will fail you instead of figuring out how to do it right.
I but that. So, once the short length of the AoE taunt wears off and you will not be able to use it for awhile, what will you do then?
It will not be spamable by any means so it could not be relied on to keep agro on the axes, your primary and only real example you have provided. That is the point I made. It would be a crutch that would lead to more issues for the tank trying to use it instead of figuring out how to do it correctly. Heck, doing it right is so much better than what you suggest.
I’m of the opinion that because the game fails with the single target reticle system in many fights.
You have yet to name one major fight where the tank has issues with tanking multiple targets. Just because some attempt to tank something is a more difficult manner does not mean there is a problem with designs of the game.
What strikes me most is that you are clamoring for an AoE taunt while we explain it is not needed in the situations you describe yet you do not bother asking how we tank the axes and lack any problems with them.
Oh, BTW, a tank that would require an AoE taunt to tank the axes will NEVER be able to tank vAA HM.
Meaning no offense, but do you want to set such limits on yourself by focusing on getting a crutch or figure out how to do it properly?
Because it has nothing to do with the fights themselves but the sheer number and proximity of enemies in any pull on ZoS’s servers in trials makes it very difficult to accurately target with the target reticle In EVERY mob pull
notably
vSO mobs, the second mob boss specifically
vDSA the 5th and Last mobs specifically
vMoL the mobs on the Twins and the Mob pull directly following the twins
vAA Axes specifically where targeting axes is not accurate
I have listed these in addition to the LAG AND LATENCY issues that people experience in varying degrees due to region. But screw them I guess?
And each has been disproven.
vSO 2 tanks. One tanks boss and one takes care of the adds. OT pulls adds to the boss so they die in cleave or just tanks them where they spawn to merely debuff them so they die a little quicker and do a little less damage.
vDSA, pull in the mobs. Faster to AoE them down then for DPS to single target them. Probably safer as well.
vMoL horrid idea for an AoE taunt for the Twins. Ready for wipe fest. If the tank were to use an AoE taunt and was not far enough away from the other bosses adds say bye bye. The challenge is getting them together to start with, not keeping their agro afterwards.
vAA axes, ,we have been through this. Without a doubt not needed and any tank that needs an AoE taunt for the axes will NEVER do HM.
BTW, when that AoE taunt wears off and will not be available for another 30 seconds or longer, what do you do with the axes in the mean time?
Hate to break it to you but Zos does not want an AoE taunt in the game and there is very little support for changing their mind. I suggest you look at my last post, the parts you did not reply to.
I am out for a bit.Edited by idk on November 23, 2017 6:32PM3 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.
Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.
That was just one example, but there are plenty others.
Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Have had 5 axes in HM and did not find it any more challenging than 3 axes. I know plenty that have tanked it, including myself, that have not had an issue with the axes once they figured it out which has to do with understanding agro mechanics in this game.
The reality is, an AoE taunt would be a horrid crutch in that fight since it would clearly not be something that could be spammed. A tank that was challenged to tank the axes and used an AoE taunt as a crutch would be so worse off than they learned to do it correctly, even if their choice was to taunt each one.
Paul is correct in his statements.
So you’re of the opinion that just because something has been done and can be done by a miniscule population that it’s ok? After 3 years of huge balance changes and combat adjustments but everything good to go?
Sorry no, not buying this.
I have tanked it and I have seen others tank it. rarely EVER have I EVER seen anyone not have issues with this as well, and NOT just with the axes as I have explained countless times throughout this posts conversations.
So, you are of the opinion that just because it can be done, and done easily, you would rather a crutch that will fail you instead of figuring out how to do it right.
I but that. So, once the short length of the AoE taunt wears off and you will not be able to use it for awhile, what will you do then?
It will not be spamable by any means so it could not be relied on to keep agro on the axes, your primary and only real example you have provided. That is the point I made. It would be a crutch that would lead to more issues for the tank trying to use it instead of figuring out how to do it correctly. Heck, doing it right is so much better than what you suggest.
I’m of the opinion that because the game fails with the single target reticle system in many fights.
You have yet to name one major fight where the tank has issues with tanking multiple targets. Just because some attempt to tank something is a more difficult manner does not mean there is a problem with designs of the game.
What strikes me most is that you are clamoring for an AoE taunt while we explain it is not needed in the situations you describe yet you do not bother asking how we tank the axes and lack any problems with them.
Oh, BTW, a tank that would require an AoE taunt to tank the axes will NEVER be able to tank vAA HM.
Meaning no offense, but do you want to set such limits on yourself by focusing on getting a crutch or figure out how to do it properly?
Because it has nothing to do with the fights themselves but the sheer number and proximity of enemies in any pull on ZoS’s servers in trials makes it very difficult to accurately target with the target reticle In EVERY mob pull
notably
vSO mobs, the second mob boss specifically
vDSA the 5th and Last mobs specifically
vMoL the mobs on the Twins and the Mob pull directly following the twins
vAA Axes specifically where targeting axes is not accurate
I have listed these in addition to the LAG AND LATENCY issues that people experience in varying degrees due to region. But screw them I guess?
And each has been disproven.
vSO 2 tanks. One tanks boss and one takes care of the adds. OT pulls adds to the boss so they die in cleave or just tanks them where they spawn to merely debuff them so they die a little quicker and do a little less damage.
vDSA, pull in the mobs. Faster to AoE them down then for DPS to single target them. Probably safer as well.
vMoL horrid idea for an AoE taunt for the Twins. Ready for wipe fest. If the tank were to use an AoE taunt and was not far enough away from the other bosses adds say bye bye. The challenge is getting them together to start with, not keeping their agro afterwards.
vAA axes, ,we have been through this. Without a doubt not needed and any tank that needs an AoE taunt for the axes will NEVER do HM.
BTW, when that AoE taunt wears off and will not be available for another 30 seconds or longer, what do you do with the axes in the mean time?
Hate to break it to you but Zos does not want an AoE taunt in the game and there is very little support for changing their mind. I suggest you look at my last post, the parts you did not reply to.
I am out for a bit.
All opinion based overviews on how YOU interpret how a perfect no lag, no latency trials pulls go, but I'll agree to disagree because we are both repeating situational fights with different views on whats needed and neccessary.
Enjoy your day0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Because it has nothing to do with the fights themselves but the sheer number and proximity of enemies in any pull on ZoS’s servers in trials makes it very difficult to accurately target with the target reticle In EVERY mob pull
notably
vSO mobs, the second mob boss specifically
vDSA the 5th and Last mobs specifically
vMoL the mobs on the Twins and the Mob pull directly following the twins
vAA Axes specifically where targeting axes is not accurate
I have listed these in addition to the LAG AND LATENCY issues that people experience in varying degrees due to region. But screw them I guess?
Then fix these fights to make enemies easier to target! Note that lag and latency is partially ZOS' problem and also client side that ZOS can't entirely account for.
There's no reason to add something (that would break far more content) to the game when the answer is to fix the fights. If the problem is server side latency and lag, that's something ZOS should address at the source, not add in a skill (that would break far more content) to cover their problems.
Or, if the problem is client side, deal with the client side issues. I'll be honest, I deal with a lot of lag and latency in PVP. Some of that is ZOS. Some of it is that I live next to a cornfield with lovely rural internet. Since I'm not moving, its sort of unfair for me to blame ZOS for all my lag and latency. I live with it and adjust accordingly.
1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Nelson_Rebel wrote: »I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.
Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.
That was just one example, but there are plenty others.
Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Have had 5 axes in HM and did not find it any more challenging than 3 axes. I know plenty that have tanked it, including myself, that have not had an issue with the axes once they figured it out which has to do with understanding agro mechanics in this game.
The reality is, an AoE taunt would be a horrid crutch in that fight since it would clearly not be something that could be spammed. A tank that was challenged to tank the axes and used an AoE taunt as a crutch would be so worse off than they learned to do it correctly, even if their choice was to taunt each one.
Paul is correct in his statements.
So you’re of the opinion that just because something has been done and can be done by a miniscule population that it’s ok? After 3 years of huge balance changes and combat adjustments but everything good to go?
Sorry no, not buying this.
I have tanked it and I have seen others tank it. rarely EVER have I EVER seen anyone not have issues with this as well, and NOT just with the axes as I have explained countless times throughout this posts conversations.
So, you are of the opinion that just because it can be done, and done easily, you would rather a crutch that will fail you instead of figuring out how to do it right.
I but that. So, once the short length of the AoE taunt wears off and you will not be able to use it for awhile, what will you do then?
It will not be spamable by any means so it could not be relied on to keep agro on the axes, your primary and only real example you have provided. That is the point I made. It would be a crutch that would lead to more issues for the tank trying to use it instead of figuring out how to do it correctly. Heck, doing it right is so much better than what you suggest.
I’m of the opinion that because the game fails with the single target reticle system in many fights.
You have yet to name one major fight where the tank has issues with tanking multiple targets. Just because some attempt to tank something is a more difficult manner does not mean there is a problem with designs of the game.
What strikes me most is that you are clamoring for an AoE taunt while we explain it is not needed in the situations you describe yet you do not bother asking how we tank the axes and lack any problems with them.
Oh, BTW, a tank that would require an AoE taunt to tank the axes will NEVER be able to tank vAA HM.
Meaning no offense, but do you want to set such limits on yourself by focusing on getting a crutch or figure out how to do it properly?
Because it has nothing to do with the fights themselves but the sheer number and proximity of enemies in any pull on ZoS’s servers in trials makes it very difficult to accurately target with the target reticle In EVERY mob pull
notably
vSO mobs, the second mob boss specifically
vDSA the 5th and Last mobs specifically
vMoL the mobs on the Twins and the Mob pull directly following the twins
vAA Axes specifically where targeting axes is not accurate
I have listed these in addition to the LAG AND LATENCY issues that people experience in varying degrees due to region. But screw them I guess?
And each has been disproven.
vSO 2 tanks. One tanks boss and one takes care of the adds. OT pulls adds to the boss so they die in cleave or just tanks them where they spawn to merely debuff them so they die a little quicker and do a little less damage.
vDSA, pull in the mobs. Faster to AoE them down then for DPS to single target them. Probably safer as well.
vMoL horrid idea for an AoE taunt for the Twins. Ready for wipe fest. If the tank were to use an AoE taunt and was not far enough away from the other bosses adds say bye bye. The challenge is getting them together to start with, not keeping their agro afterwards.
vAA axes, ,we have been through this. Without a doubt not needed and any tank that needs an AoE taunt for the axes will NEVER do HM.
BTW, when that AoE taunt wears off and will not be available for another 30 seconds or longer, what do you do with the axes in the mean time?
Hate to break it to you but Zos does not want an AoE taunt in the game and there is very little support for changing their mind. I suggest you look at my last post, the parts you did not reply to.
I am out for a bit.
All opinion based overviews on how YOU interpret how a perfect no lag, no latency trials pulls go, but I'll agree to disagree because we are both repeating situational fights with different views on whats needed and neccessary.
Enjoy your day
Design of the game does not change because someone has bad internet issues. I play with people on the opposite side of the world from the servers, including some that have tanked the axes.
I respect you have an opinion and really not concerned since I know Zos will not add the AoE taunt though most of the fights you mention probable come down to a strat that has room for improvement.
However, that it seems you are not interested in figuring out how others do it without issue is something I do not respect. Instead of incorrectly stating that a miniscule number of players can do it without issue, I would rather you had interest in how they tanked it vs looking for the fabled AoE taunt.Edited by idk on November 23, 2017 7:03PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.
A good tank brings order to the chaos, providing crowd control, holding the boss still for the ground-based AoEs, and giving group buffs and boss debuffs.
Can content be completed without a tank? Absolutely. A skilled raid of 4 DPS should have no problems. Does that make tanks useless? No.
0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
Do you really think ZoS wants an AoE tank skill that goes against his "play as you want trademark"? They have changed even frost staff to make it able for tanking without adding an AoE skill.
Besides, that skill + tremorscales in PvP will be awful, with dune rippers popping up like sandworms in ArrakisSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Do you really think ZoS wants an AoE tank skill that goes against his "play as you want trademark"? They have changed even frost staff to make it able for tanking without adding an AoE skill.
Besides, that skill + tremorscales in PvP will be awful, with dune rippers popping up like sandworms in Arrakis
Paul: Stilgar, do we have wormsign?
Stilgar: Usul, we have wormsign the likes of which even God has never seen.
Between Tremorscale and Vanguard's Challenge, PVP is not ready for an AOE taunt.
0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I've got a picture of itVaranisArano wrote: »Do you really think ZoS wants an AoE tank skill that goes against his "play as you want trademark"? They have changed even frost staff to make it able for tanking without adding an AoE skill.
Besides, that skill + tremorscales in PvP will be awful, with dune rippers popping up like sandworms in Arrakis
Paul: Stilgar, do we have wormsign?
Stilgar: Usul, we have wormsign the likes of which even God has never seen.
Between Tremorscale and Vanguard's Challenge, PVP is not ready for an AOE taunt.
Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I've got a picture of itVaranisArano wrote: »Do you really think ZoS wants an AoE tank skill that goes against his "play as you want trademark"? They have changed even frost staff to make it able for tanking without adding an AoE skill.
Besides, that skill + tremorscales in PvP will be awful, with dune rippers popping up like sandworms in Arrakis
Paul: Stilgar, do we have wormsign?
Stilgar: Usul, we have wormsign the likes of which even God has never seen.
Between Tremorscale and Vanguard's Challenge, PVP is not ready for an AOE taunt.
Have battle spirit reduce taunt amount and internal cooldown. Coupled with the 5'meter range (and have it's range NOT affected by battle
spirit) It really would not be used in any major fights outside small grouplay. Your pvp is left unscathed0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
That is the downside of melee, as well you can also be moving around bosses, not only away from them. All depends on the boss fight. As well, stamina, when on moved, generally have a lot higher single Target DPS to account for that.0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
That is the downside of melee, as well you can also be moving around bosses, not only away from them. All depends on the boss fight. As well, stamina, when on moved, generally have a lot higher single Target DPS to account for that.
We're not talking about boss fights, it's AOE taunts on trash mobs0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
That is the downside of melee, as well you can also be moving around bosses, not only away from them. All depends on the boss fight. As well, stamina, when on moved, generally have a lot higher single Target DPS to account for that.
We're not talking about boss fights, it's AOE taunts on trash mobs
Do you legit roll dodge on trash fights?0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
That is the downside of melee, as well you can also be moving around bosses, not only away from them. All depends on the boss fight. As well, stamina, when on moved, generally have a lot higher single Target DPS to account for that.
We're not talking about boss fights, it's AOE taunts on trash mobs
Do you legit roll dodge on trash fights?
Roll dodge makes a lot of sense when you're rooted, have everything aggroed and red circles are forming beneath you. Do you just stand and bear it? Nice I guess.2 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
That is the downside of melee, as well you can also be moving around bosses, not only away from them. All depends on the boss fight. As well, stamina, when on moved, generally have a lot higher single Target DPS to account for that.
We're not talking about boss fights, it's AOE taunts on trash mobs
Do you legit roll dodge on trash fights?
Roll dodge makes a lot of sense when you're rooted, have everything aggroed and red circles are forming beneath you. Do you just stand and bear it? Nice I guess.
He must want everyone to stand inside vMoLs
trash fights with sun eaters blue circles too lol0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
Or not roll dodge cause most fights don't require it, just that you move out of the way or block for a few seconds or do both at the same time. Very few fights that actually needs roll dodging.
Moving around is a loss of DPS unless you're ranged.
That is the downside of melee, as well you can also be moving around bosses, not only away from them. All depends on the boss fight. As well, stamina, when on moved, generally have a lot higher single Target DPS to account for that.
We're not talking about boss fights, it's AOE taunts on trash mobs
Do you legit roll dodge on trash fights?
Roll dodge makes a lot of sense when you're rooted, have everything aggroed and red circles are forming beneath you. Do you just stand and bear it? Nice I guess.
I do, and its great, cause I stand still while I DPS cause I have a Tank that pulls everything in with Chains. No need to get out of Roots in trash pulls.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Aggro mechanics are still kind of busted IMO. One of my tank builds has a whopping 5k weapon damage and 34k stam and a Endless hail -> Caltrops -> DBOS combo goes down and I can't maintain aggro without spamming puncture?
Please. Give me a freaking break. Fix aggro mechanics.0331
06020 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »There was a time, long ago, when a plain simple mob in a dungeon would one shot a DPS/healer if their HA was not blocked. AoEs would kill a player fast if they did not move out. We still managed by working with the skills Zos gave each and every character. It is really part of what makes this game fun.
Zos intended, with the design of the game, that the tank would not hold agro on every single mob and they do not have to. We know this because Zos told us so.
Yeah power creep. This isn't the same game it once was, tanks in 4 player content can survive all the aggro these days, so can DPS usually.Besides, few boss fights in 4 man dungeons require a true tank. Mobs certainly do not.
Exactly, true tanks currently have little to offer in 4 player dungeons.The benefit of a tank with mobs is they can pull the melee mobs to the ranged more effectively.
DPS can just stand next to the ranged mobs and everything they have aggroed will follow. They're more effective at clustering mobs than some of the other tank builds out there because they hold most of the aggro anyway.To the point made just before this post, a good dps will not be effected much by a block or roll dodge here an there. They know how to block cast and more.
Define much. Is it 10% less DPS? 15%? That's the strength of a Warhorn by the way.
To your last point, I can only assume your numbers are if the DPS is block casting the entire fight which cannot be done. Block casting intermittently might be a drop of 1-2% of DPS on that fight. Miniscule.
You must never roll dodge then, or you stand in red circles the whole time, or have no concept of what defines DPS. Not miniscule.
I can only assume you have not experienced vHoF, vMoL, vAS or vAA based on your comment. Both require blocking and movement.
To understand what defines a good damage dealer 0ne must understand how to manage movement and blocking while still do your damage. So, yes, I do dodge roll, block and move when needed. A dead damage dealer is the worst kind.
I assume you misunderstood what I'm saying.
There is no argument present in what you've said, it's obvious that a DPS needs to stay alive through movement and blocking. The reactions to incoming damage causes more than a miniscule reduction of DPS. If a DPS misses or delays one dps skill every 10 seconds, that's a 10% reduction in damage.
With most fights is miniscule. Good dps are not losing 10% in that fight unless they are managing specific tasks like running in the back room. The blocking is not often enough to cause a 10% DPS loss in itself.
There are fights in the most recent two trials that have much more movement and as such DPS does fall, but that is beside the point you are making.
Besides, it seems you have derailed this conversation with this. It is about AoE taunts, not dps tactics for avoiding damage or the cost of it on their damage output.
I've only been talking about AOE taunts on trash mobs and it's effects on reducing aggro on DPS....*scrolls up* ...in 4 player content.0