Bladerunner1 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Also you expect me to believe that DPS are not already going glass cannon set ups? People build for Trials and then they go with that for Dungeons too.

Yeah. A good DPS won't die, they're going to use or slot something to survive aggro or damage just like they always have.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I mean too low HP or defense and you will get one shot'ed by untauntable mechanics, most dungeons have them. The AoE taunt would not change any of that.

We're talking about trash mob aggro, and it would change the need for DPS to use defense against large groups of mobs. One shot Boss mechanics aren't the same thing, they aren't a problem if the DPS knows the mechanic.

paulsimonps wrote: »

A Tank with Powerful assault and SPC would do the trick for buffs and debuffs

It looks like you're describing something else with heals while I'm talking about true tanks. And I didn't say the tanking role wasn't needed. I said they're like luggage, not used for most of the trip until they reach a destination in a 4 player dungeon, the role isn't valued as much as it should be.

This game is designed so that DPS has to deal with most of the trash mob aggro that doesn't get CC'd or taunted. They deal with most of the ranged aggro as well. They're already like tanks to some degree or they die.

Are you seriously saying that strong AoE DPSs need to gear to be tanky cause they pull agro? Are you for real? No, they don't, have a proper healer or tank and you do not need to do that at all. Tanks are not a burden, they are a boon. Only really self-sufficient groups go with 4 DPS. Also, almost every game I know has agro based on DPS or Heals when Taunt is not applied.

Also what are you talking about when you say DPS have to use defense against large groups of mobs? I know zero DPS that think that they are facing too much in trash mobs in Dungeons. Do you feel you have problem surviving in Dungeons?

Deathpunkin wrote: »

How about some feedback, rather than being rude and flat out shooting it down?

You must be new around here.... but understand you will have very little support on this subject.

Porter_H wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Pdl123 wrote: »

Ya i tank ive played a templar tank dk tank nb tank warden tank sorc tank
Not so much needed for sorc or dk since they have cc but for the other classes with no cc it would be beneficial

Then what they need is not a AoE taunt right? Its a fricking CC. Also Wardens have a CC, them and DKs are the CC masters in PvE.

Gripping shards is awesome! Scales off of max health. I would love to have a CC like that or Restraining Prison from my Sorc on my Templar or NB. Something in the Undaunted Skill line....... maybe replace the spider thing at Lvl2.

When I started playing again I wished for an AoE taunt but the more I tank the more I realize it isn't needed. S/B Pierce Armor, Inner Fire (with either mag/stam morph and can be used at range), and a frost staff heavy attack taunt (if you use one on the back bar) is plenty.

Making choices on what to taunt and resource management is part of the fun for tanking. Generally speaking, it's anything named (boss, mini-boss) then mobs with big 2handed weapon is getting taunted if I don't know the dungeon. Something hitting the healer? Taunt. Knowing the pulls in dungeons helps a lot.

Indeed, knowing is half the battle.

Just no. Tanks are kind of lazy already.

Deathpunkin wrote: »

I'm sure (almost) everyone will agree, we need at least one AOE taunt skill.
"But how will we keep it from being abused!?"
Which is most likely the reason there isn't one.

I've got a solution!

What do you guys think of...

"Enemies within 5(or more?) meters are taunted to attack you for X seconds.
When the taunt ends, affected enemies are Immune to taunt(Taunt Immunity is applied to them, as if too many people were smashing that Puncture) for Y seconds"

That's fair right? Taunt immunity would nullify abuse.
and we would be able to hold aggro of larger groups.

Nope, not needed. If you know your stuff you are able to nicely pile up your mobs for AoE dps by just proper moving, using some single taunts, some damage skills for initial aggro and movement preventing skills. The rest is done by chains, portals and Swarm Mother.

Actually your suggestion would take a big portion of fun and aspiration from tanking. DDs who are worth their weight kill trash so fast that they won't die or take reasonable damage at all, because of proper AoE dps followed by blocking, positioning, moving/sprinting/dodge rolling or using skills like Ward, Harness Magicka, or Death Cloak in this game for further help.

The usual issue in PuGs is that you either have a tank who is a DD with just a taunt on its bar (when you are lucky he has a taunt...) or DDs who somehow aren't able to do proper AoE dps (no AoE skill slotted or else..I watched 600CP+ magSorcs in 4-man-vet-stuff not possessing a lighting staff or not using it properly by doing HAs...I have no clue how some people can lack such basic mechanics at all..) and need ages to down a 6+ trash mob group. In the worst case you get both options together, grats..

Even a tank build for sustain and support will have issues after a certain time to keep the mob pack together and the relevant adds taunted without running out of ressources.

The solution for this issue is not an AoE taunt, it's kicking the fake tank and the fake DDs and getting some who know their job and how you get it done.

I quite like the idea of AE taunt as long as it is limited to affecting only one enemy

It's not needed with AE root tbh, that takes care of most of the mobs. The only classes that might benefit from AE taunt are those without AE root, but I reckon only health stackers would survive the onslaught, and those are boring to play. The game works by distributing the damage over a group, and having AE heals & skilled players sorting that.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.

Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.

That was just one example, but there are plenty others.

Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thing is if you do it right you don't even have to retaunt the vAA Axes. And even if you do, its easy enough to do already, you don't need an AoE Taunt for it. Tanks have been doing it since AA came out, never seen anyone cry for an AoE Taunt cause of that specific fight.

You don’t see many people bring it up, because realistically the entire playbases population of tanks who are capable of doing VAA are so miniscule that no one ever see’s or hears their issues. And the amount of actual trial completions on all platforms is less than 5%. (verified by trophy achievements)

I have tanked VAA and seen tanks with VAA the issue is rarely that the group is bad,
but because of the reasons I listed in my previous post that the games reticle targeting system is far from perfect and leaves much to be desired. Especially when counting the lag and latency issues that will cause a group wipe all because I couldn’t tell if my puncture/inner fire actually hit the right axe and there was nothing I could do because the axes moving around in a tight space like that mid air make it almost game breaking to do correctly without luck rng on your side.

Adding in a very limited AoE taunt, to say, 5 meter range would go a long way to help with tanks when dealing withh all that and lag and latency. It’s not making it lazy tanking when it’s limited in; Scope, range, and volume of enemies. Throw in a stacking cost for consecutive casts would also make it un-abusable.

Poof problems solved, and the game recieves a much needed skill that alleviates the problems with lag, latency, and reticle targeting system issues for the already small population of tanks.

What could honestly be bad with this?

Yes it still would be. We have survived for 3 years without it, and we will continue to do so as well. It would trivialize dungeons further than it already does, and adding one skill just to deal with the Axes is a Learn to play issue. And as I said, you don't even need to retaunt them if you know what you are doing. Make sure to damage them a bit and make sure no one else hits them and then you don't have to retaunt. Aka make healers give healing orbs and not shards cause that would damage them.

I love how you ignored everything else lmfao


But again. No it’s not making it lazy tanking WHEN it’s limited in how many enemies it’ll hit (3-4) limited in range (5 meters) And add in a stacking cost to consecutive casts.

I said before that the axes were just ONE example. You assumed on your own that this is all I said it would be useful for. Very presumptious of you. Some other examples would be

vDSA, vSO, vMoL

All where the single targeting reticle system are woefully inadequate when dealing with MoBs where it’s impossible to accurately hit the correct targets in addition to lag and latency issues on ZoS’s server side.


The damaging tactic on axes does not work reliably . Once Taunt breaks and ANY enemies not just the axes in vAA and they are gone to wherever their AI at the time instructs them, and everyone knows that the AI in this game is also far from infallible as well.

You do NOT want to taunt everything in vSO as a Tank, you do NOT want to taunt everything in vMoL as a tank and vDSA is more about chaining stuff in rather than taunting them, just chain them in and they die almost immediately. Its all about being lazy or L2P. Its not needed. And if you limit it as much as you are, then why have it? It would be a skill that would either be boring as hell or completely useless.

Tanked 5-6 Axes before in vAA HM, not felt like I needed a AoE Taunt to deal with them, and most non HM runs never get more than 3-4 Axes.

When other people consistently do it all the time you can only complain about the game so much before it starts being more you than it.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

You don’t see many people bring it up, because realistically the entire playbases population of tanks who are capable of doing VAA are so miniscule that no one ever see’s or hears their issues. And the amount of actual trial completions on all platforms is less than 5%. (verified by trophy achievements)

I have tanked VAA and seen tanks with VAA the issue is rarely that the group is bad,
but because of the reasons I listed in my previous post that the games reticle targeting system is far from perfect and leaves much to be desired. Especially when counting the lag and latency issues that will cause a group wipe all because I couldn’t tell if my puncture/inner fire actually hit the right axe and there was nothing I could do because the axes moving around in a tight space like that mid air make it almost game breaking to do correctly without luck rng on your side.

Adding in a very limited AoE taunt, to say, 5 meter range would go a long way to help with tanks when dealing withh all that and lag and latency. It’s not making it lazy tanking when it’s limited in; Scope, range, and volume of enemies. Throw in a stacking cost for consecutive casts would also make it un-abusable.
?

I understand your point that the axes are a tough fight and that the AOE taunt would help with lag and targeting issues.

However, I look at your statement about population and have to wonder, "Why should we trivialize group dungeons in order to fix a problem with a vet Trial fight?"

I main a tank. Adding an aoe taunt to group dungeons means that ideal tanking becomes AOE Taunt, Perma-block, and the healing spams heals on tank while the dps wreck face from perfect safety. Even a limited range, limited target aoe taunt is going to do that to the meta. That enormously simplifies and indeed trivializes the current combat system in group dungeons.

Your points about the difficulty of the axes with lag, targeting, and such deserve a solution. The solution is not to destroy the current system for roles in group dungeons which currently requires more of tanks than being perma-blocking damage sponges, more of healers than to spam heals, and more of DPS than being pure glass cannons.

If the axes are a problem with lag and latency, then ZOS should fix the problem with targeting the axes. ZOS should not change the fundamental design of tanking.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I’m not against an AoE taunt, mainly because there ARE some bosses and group pulls where the single target taunt is incredibly ineffective and is ruined in addition to latency and lag on the servers side.

Notably Vet AA with the Mages Axes. And the reason is that because those axes are moving around mid air so much with more than 4 axes it can become very luck based in order to actually taunt the right axe. And if even one gets lose, poof there goes your group because they’re all dead.

That was just one example, but there are plenty others.

Anyway’s IF an AoE taunt is added it’ll have to be limited in how many NPC’s the AoE taunt actually taunt, I.E. 3-4 NPC’s at a time. I would be ok with this as you would still definitely need your single target taunt for the big bad’s, but it would help the games reticle targeting that is far from infallible, especially including trials issues such as latency when casting skills and poor timing of lag.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thing is if you do it right you don't even have to retaunt the vAA Axes. And even if you do, its easy enough to do already, you don't need an AoE Taunt for it. Tanks have been doing it since AA came out, never seen anyone cry for an AoE Taunt cause of that specific fight.

You don’t see many people bring it up, because realistically the entire playbases population of tanks who are capable of doing VAA are so miniscule that no one ever see’s or hears their issues. And the amount of actual trial completions on all platforms is less than 5%. (verified by trophy achievements)

I have tanked VAA and seen tanks with VAA the issue is rarely that the group is bad,
but because of the reasons I listed in my previous post that the games reticle targeting system is far from perfect and leaves much to be desired. Especially when counting the lag and latency issues that will cause a group wipe all because I couldn’t tell if my puncture/inner fire actually hit the right axe and there was nothing I could do because the axes moving around in a tight space like that mid air make it almost game breaking to do correctly without luck rng on your side.

Adding in a very limited AoE taunt, to say, 5 meter range would go a long way to help with tanks when dealing withh all that and lag and latency. It’s not making it lazy tanking when it’s limited in; Scope, range, and volume of enemies. Throw in a stacking cost for consecutive casts would also make it un-abusable.

Poof problems solved, and the game recieves a much needed skill that alleviates the problems with lag, latency, and reticle targeting system issues for the already small population of tanks.

What could honestly be bad with this?

Yes it still would be. We have survived for 3 years without it, and we will continue to do so as well. It would trivialize dungeons further than it already does, and adding one skill just to deal with the Axes is a Learn to play issue. And as I said, you don't even need to retaunt them if you know what you are doing. Make sure to damage them a bit and make sure no one else hits them and then you don't have to retaunt. Aka make healers give healing orbs and not shards cause that would damage them.

I love how you ignored everything else lmfao


But again. No it’s not making it lazy tanking WHEN it’s limited in how many enemies it’ll hit (3-4) limited in range (5 meters) And add in a stacking cost to consecutive casts.

I said before that the axes were just ONE example. You assumed on your own that this is all I said it would be useful for. Very presumptious of you. Some other examples would be

vDSA, vSO, vMoL

All where the single targeting reticle system are woefully inadequate when dealing with MoBs where it’s impossible to accurately hit the correct targets in addition to lag and latency issues on ZoS’s server side.


The damaging tactic on axes does not work reliably . Once Taunt breaks and ANY enemies not just the axes in vAA and they are gone to wherever their AI at the time instructs them, and everyone knows that the AI in this game is also far from infallible as well.

You do NOT want to taunt everything in vSO as a Tank, you do NOT want to taunt everything in vMoL as a tank and vDSA is more about chaining stuff in rather than taunting them, just chain them in and they die almost immediately. Its all about being lazy or L2P. Its not needed. And if you limit it as much as you are, then why have it? It would be a skill that would either be boring as hell or completely useless.

Tanked 5-6 Axes before in vAA HM, not felt like I needed a AoE Taunt to deal with them, and most non HM runs never get more than 3-4 Axes.

When other people consistently do it all the time you can only complain about the game so much before it starts being more you than it.

Where did I once say I wanted to taunt everything? Nowhere not once, again presumptious when I have already explained multiple times that it would be limited in scope, range and consecutive costs. Where it WOULD be useful for Niche fights that require a better implementation of taunt targeting tactics rather than the much to be desired single target reticle that does not always reliably work due to mechanics, lag, and latency issues.

Your OPINION is getting in the way of looking at it objectively because you are just dead set in that because something HAS been done and CAN be done by a MINISCULE population of and even MORE miniscule population of completions (factual % of less than 5 percent on ALL platforms) that changing it in ANY way is lazy to YOU because you PERSONALLY don’t like it is NOT a legitimate reason to deny every other player in the game. Excuse me god.

Yes, I did make an assumption cause why would you want an AoE taunt for vMoL if not to taunt everything? I mean you only taunt 2-3 mobs at a time in there as a tank considering you have 2 tanks in there. Same thing for vSO. Why would you need it? To make it easier. Yes I don't like it, cause it would be a stupid design choice that would ruin tanking. It would trivialize a role that is already looked at by the community as the lazy and boring role, even though those that actually try it find it to be more engaging than they think. Making it more lazy and boring is not the way to make people play it more, making it more engaging and exciting is. AoE taunt is not the way to make it more engaging, its the opposite. This is a L2P issue in every example you have brought up so far.