The Best Way to Enhance Cyro

Sacredx · November 2017

If people cheat they themselves know it. They rob themselves of any sense of achievement and ultimately purpose of playing. So my advice is; if you see any suspicious behaviour feel free to report it and remind yourself that the people that are cheating are only cheating themselves so you have nothing to worry about. And that it is a game so try to relax and enjoy it no matter the outcome.

zyk · November 2017

Sacredx wrote: »

If people cheat they themselves know it. They rob themselves of any sense of achievement and ultimately purpose of playing. So my advice is; if you see any suspicious behaviour feel free to report it and remind yourself that the people that are cheating are only cheating themselves so you have nothing to worry about. And that it is a game so try to relax and enjoy it no matter the outcome.

It's arguable whether they are cheating themselves, but inarguable they are cheating everyone they play with and against. In my experience, cheaters are usually completely shameless.

The responses we see in threads like this is to be expected so long after Zazgate because most of the players who won't tolerate inaction against cheaters have already quit ESO. Those who chose to continue playing are obviously more inclined to be accepting of it.

However, being accepting of ZOS inaction isn't the approach that will motivate them to change. Only ZOS can fix this, but they won't if their playerbase is apathetic.

idk · November 2017

Earthewen wrote: »

We have both solo players and group players in our guild, and we see it all the time. Not talking about the guys that beat us on the field. We see it even when we win. ;-)

It is easy to say you see it.

If you really were seeing something that could only be explained via a cheat engine, etc, then you should be talking to Zos instead of merely creating a thread in the forums. Heck, you did even bother to provide any explanation whatsoever and did even try to tag anyone at Zos in your OP, though without something for them to sink their teeth in tagging them is probably pointless.

Gather you evidence. Provide Zos with a thorough explanation. Record a video (Nvidea shadow play permits grabbing the last 5 minutes of game play).

It is really simple and goes so much further than merely creating an OP with two simple sentences complaining and nothing to back it up.

Sacredx · November 2017

One thing I would like to see implemented is an incident response protocol. Other games have this and it's a good middle ground to reassure the player that action is being taken. If a person files a report ZOS deals with the details and acts accordingly. But we never hear back from them and I understand that it is against tos to discuss the details. But one thing that would be nice is a response from ZOS stating that they reviewed the report, that something was done and here is the email proving it, no details of the outcome, just a notification that's all.

Izaki · November 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

We have both solo players and group players in our guild, and we see it all the time. Not talking about the guys that beat us on the field. We see it even when we win. ;-)

bolded that part that confirms you would not recognize cheater from normal player

to add to that, you would never win against someone cheating, otherwise, what is the point of cheating?

Beardimus · November 2017

Remove CP from the 7 day too, if not all campaigns. That will help game play as we saw in BG of old

Blobsky · November 2017

Id love to see this "proof"... Ive literallly never seen a PvP "hacker" and played 300+ days cyro time. Personally Im told I exploit practically daily and dont even run addons. People just bandwagon the cheat train when they die

Earthewen · November 2017

I think some of you guys have misunderstood my original post. The statement isn't about whether or not (or indeed who) might be unethical players in the game. We all know there are. ZOS knows there are. Everyone here knows that there are unethical players in the gaming culture. The statement was a comment that perhaps an immediate help to the gaming experience in PVP might be to deal swiftly and completely with those unethical players. I don't really care who it is. It isn't our jobs to police the game. My job is out in the real world. I don't get paid to police ESO. That is something ZOS should do. They should do it all the time and then ban the people doing it. That will free us up to actually play the game and have a good experience rather than all of us sitting around and discussing who it is and pointing fingers and calling other people liars. @VaranisArano had it right. There are people who are just great players and I die to them. I don't call them cheaters. I say, "Well played." Still, it is up to ZOS to figure it all out. I think we would trust ZOS more if we saw greater results, which we don't. If we did, then the forums wouldn't be full of these kinds of discussions.

@zyk , your posting made so much sense. I can see how you could be so correct that the ethical, serious, and hardcore players might have dispersed to different games. I know some hardcore friends and entire guilds that have left the game. it was so sad to see them go. I remain here for the great friends I have made, for the beautiful game, and when things are pretty balanced in Cryo, the fun that I have. ESO is still despite all of the problems an amazing game and the PVP can be the best fun! I'd like to protect that.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

Turelus · November 2017

Earthewen wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

What we're trying to say is how do we know they're not? No one has produced anything to show that cheaters are everywhere in Cyrodiil and not being punished.
If ZOS is banning people then they're not going to announce it either. So unless people know people first hand who are cheating and not being banned we're just making assumptions based off word of mouth.

As an example I can say "Everyone on the PvE leaderboards is using cheat engine to get on them, ZOS won't ban them." which is a statement I just made up, but carries as much weight as anyone saying the same about PvP.

If there is evidence of cheating it should be passed to ZOS, if there is suspicion of cheating it should be passed to ZOS. We can have mature conversation about our beliefs on the level of cheating within Cyrodiil, but we need to stop acting like it's fact when there is nothing backing that up.

The attitude of "everyone who seems good cheats" is just as damaging to the PvP community as the cheaters themselves, it breeds a toxic and unfriendly environment.

Earthewen · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

What we're trying to say is how do we know they're not? No one has produced anything to show that cheaters are everywhere in Cyrodiil and not being punished.
If ZOS is banning people then they're not going to announce it either. So unless people know people first hand who are cheating and not being banned we're just making assumptions based off word of mouth.

As an example I can say "Everyone on the PvE leaderboards is using cheat engine to get on them, ZOS won't ban them." which is a statement I just made up, but carries as much weight as anyone saying the same about PvP.

If there is evidence of cheating it should be passed to ZOS, if there is suspicion of cheating it should be passed to ZOS. We can have mature conversation about our beliefs on the level of cheating within Cyrodiil, but we need to stop acting like it's fact when there is nothing backing that up.

The attitude of "everyone who seems good cheats" is just as damaging to the PvP community as the cheaters themselves, it breeds a toxic and unfriendly environment.

Actually, we do know it because some of the people are now back in game on different accounts. We know because they've told us. Again, you aren't listening. ZOS needs to stop expecting the players to do their jobs and get into the game and do it themselves. I now people who have been banned previously are back because they've told me themselves. They've bragged over and over again about their exploiting, have shown other people how to do it, and have not be secretive about it. It isn't my job or your job to be the police of the game. It's ZOS's job to do it. DO it and get these people out of here. You want to immediately enhance the PVP experience? That is one way. I never said everyone who is good is cheating. Not once. And yet you continue to put those words in my mouth as if I did. You say there is nothing to back it up? I say you aren't paying attention then.

Turelus · November 2017

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

What we're trying to say is how do we know they're not? No one has produced anything to show that cheaters are everywhere in Cyrodiil and not being punished.
If ZOS is banning people then they're not going to announce it either. So unless people know people first hand who are cheating and not being banned we're just making assumptions based off word of mouth.

As an example I can say "Everyone on the PvE leaderboards is using cheat engine to get on them, ZOS won't ban them." which is a statement I just made up, but carries as much weight as anyone saying the same about PvP.

If there is evidence of cheating it should be passed to ZOS, if there is suspicion of cheating it should be passed to ZOS. We can have mature conversation about our beliefs on the level of cheating within Cyrodiil, but we need to stop acting like it's fact when there is nothing backing that up.

The attitude of "everyone who seems good cheats" is just as damaging to the PvP community as the cheaters themselves, it breeds a toxic and unfriendly environment.

Actually, we do know it because some of the people are now back in game on different accounts. We know because they've told us. Again, you aren't listening. ZOS needs to stop expecting the players to do their jobs and get into the game and do it themselves. I now people who have been banned previously are back because they've told me themselves. They've bragged over and over again about their exploiting, have shown other people how to do it, and have not be secretive about it. It isn't my job or your job to be the police of the game. It's ZOS's job to do it. DO it and get these people out of here. You want to immediately enhance the PVP experience? That is one way. I never said everyone who is good is cheating. Not once. And yet you continue to put those words in my mouth as if I did. You say there is nothing to back it up? I say you aren't paying attention then.

Firstly buying a new account after being banned actually isn't against any rules. Jessica even said this was acceptable in a post recently, one would hope that people learn and don't repeat offend if they go down this route.

If they're bragging and showing it all so openly, has that been sent to ZOS? If so by what means and if those means haven't worked yet have people tried sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai or a forums moderator with the information?

None of us know what ZOS is actually doing behind the scenes as they won't talk about it. However if as you said people have been banned and purchased new accounts then clearly bans are happening no?

I've not meant you personally with the everyone good is cheating comments but we see a lot of threads and comments where people say how bad cheating and cheat engine is. Apologies if it came out that way.

As for policing their game I am sure ZOS has some level of measures in place, however ZOS can't be all places at all times and it's going to require players to support them in fighting such actions.
If players are openly bragging to those like yourself of cheating then surely it's easier and faster for you to pass the information on in a short PM than it is to wait for ZOS staff to catch the players out.

Earthewen · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

What we're trying to say is how do we know they're not? No one has produced anything to show that cheaters are everywhere in Cyrodiil and not being punished.
If ZOS is banning people then they're not going to announce it either. So unless people know people first hand who are cheating and not being banned we're just making assumptions based off word of mouth.

As an example I can say "Everyone on the PvE leaderboards is using cheat engine to get on them, ZOS won't ban them." which is a statement I just made up, but carries as much weight as anyone saying the same about PvP.

If there is evidence of cheating it should be passed to ZOS, if there is suspicion of cheating it should be passed to ZOS. We can have mature conversation about our beliefs on the level of cheating within Cyrodiil, but we need to stop acting like it's fact when there is nothing backing that up.

The attitude of "everyone who seems good cheats" is just as damaging to the PvP community as the cheaters themselves, it breeds a toxic and unfriendly environment.

Actually, we do know it because some of the people are now back in game on different accounts. We know because they've told us. Again, you aren't listening. ZOS needs to stop expecting the players to do their jobs and get into the game and do it themselves. I now people who have been banned previously are back because they've told me themselves. They've bragged over and over again about their exploiting, have shown other people how to do it, and have not be secretive about it. It isn't my job or your job to be the police of the game. It's ZOS's job to do it. DO it and get these people out of here. You want to immediately enhance the PVP experience? That is one way. I never said everyone who is good is cheating. Not once. And yet you continue to put those words in my mouth as if I did. You say there is nothing to back it up? I say you aren't paying attention then.

Firstly buying a new account after being banned actually isn't against any rules. Jessica even said this was acceptable in a post recently, one would hope that people learn and don't repeat offend if they go down this route.

If they're bragging and showing it all so openly, has that been sent to ZOS? If so by what means and if those means haven't worked yet have people tried sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai or a forums moderator with the information?

None of us know what ZOS is actually doing behind the scenes as they won't talk about it. However if as you said people have been banned and purchased new accounts then clearly bans are happening no?

I've not meant you personally with the everyone good is cheating comments but we see a lot of threads and comments where people say how bad cheating and cheat engine is. Apologies if it came out that way.

As for policing their game I am sure ZOS has some level of measures in place, however ZOS can't be all places at all times and it's going to require players to support them in fighting such actions.
If players are openly bragging to those like yourself of cheating then surely it's easier and faster for you to pass the information on in a short PM than it is to wait for ZOS staff to catch the players out.

I know what you are saying. You are saying that we should continue to do what we have for years now. Report and report with facts. However, this has been done and there is still a problem. If there weren't a problem, these kinds of discussions wouldn't be happening. I'm saying that ZOS needs to go find them - not us. They have the code and they will not have the same questions and doubts we do. I don't want to report someone on a hunch or for "proof" that I have that could be interpreted different ways. ZOS needs to do it themselves and take it out of our hands so all we have to do is play and have fun and know that ZOS is taking care of it.

Turelus · November 2017

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

What we're trying to say is how do we know they're not? No one has produced anything to show that cheaters are everywhere in Cyrodiil and not being punished.
If ZOS is banning people then they're not going to announce it either. So unless people know people first hand who are cheating and not being banned we're just making assumptions based off word of mouth.

As an example I can say "Everyone on the PvE leaderboards is using cheat engine to get on them, ZOS won't ban them." which is a statement I just made up, but carries as much weight as anyone saying the same about PvP.

If there is evidence of cheating it should be passed to ZOS, if there is suspicion of cheating it should be passed to ZOS. We can have mature conversation about our beliefs on the level of cheating within Cyrodiil, but we need to stop acting like it's fact when there is nothing backing that up.

The attitude of "everyone who seems good cheats" is just as damaging to the PvP community as the cheaters themselves, it breeds a toxic and unfriendly environment.

Actually, we do know it because some of the people are now back in game on different accounts. We know because they've told us. Again, you aren't listening. ZOS needs to stop expecting the players to do their jobs and get into the game and do it themselves. I now people who have been banned previously are back because they've told me themselves. They've bragged over and over again about their exploiting, have shown other people how to do it, and have not be secretive about it. It isn't my job or your job to be the police of the game. It's ZOS's job to do it. DO it and get these people out of here. You want to immediately enhance the PVP experience? That is one way. I never said everyone who is good is cheating. Not once. And yet you continue to put those words in my mouth as if I did. You say there is nothing to back it up? I say you aren't paying attention then.

Firstly buying a new account after being banned actually isn't against any rules. Jessica even said this was acceptable in a post recently, one would hope that people learn and don't repeat offend if they go down this route.

If they're bragging and showing it all so openly, has that been sent to ZOS? If so by what means and if those means haven't worked yet have people tried sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai or a forums moderator with the information?

None of us know what ZOS is actually doing behind the scenes as they won't talk about it. However if as you said people have been banned and purchased new accounts then clearly bans are happening no?

I've not meant you personally with the everyone good is cheating comments but we see a lot of threads and comments where people say how bad cheating and cheat engine is. Apologies if it came out that way.

As for policing their game I am sure ZOS has some level of measures in place, however ZOS can't be all places at all times and it's going to require players to support them in fighting such actions.
If players are openly bragging to those like yourself of cheating then surely it's easier and faster for you to pass the information on in a short PM than it is to wait for ZOS staff to catch the players out.

I know what you are saying. You are saying that we should continue to do what we have for years now. Report and report with facts. However, this has been done and there is still a problem. If there weren't a problem, these kinds of discussions wouldn't be happening. I'm saying that ZOS needs to go find them - not us. They have the code and they will not have the same questions and doubts we do. I don't want to report someone on a hunch or for "proof" that I have that could be interpreted different ways. ZOS needs to do it themselves and take it out of our hands so all we have to do is play and have fun and know that ZOS is taking care of it.

Okay, so say ZOS does this. How are we going to know, what if a player suspected of cheating remains, we will see the same "ZOS does nothing" threads.

The issue is we perceived as cheating might not be, but we will continue to believe ZOS does nothing. Unless they start communicating on a case (player) by case basis which opens a huge can of worms which will not benefit the game/community.

I support the idea ZOS could do more and communicate more, which I have been very vocal in posting on these forums. However the demands your making seem to be unachievable in the eyes of the community.

Earthewen · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm saying is that ZOS really needs to take care of this without expecting us to guess about who is and who isn't. They need to step up to the plate and get these people out. I don't get paid to do ZOS's job for them.

What we're trying to say is how do we know they're not? No one has produced anything to show that cheaters are everywhere in Cyrodiil and not being punished.
If ZOS is banning people then they're not going to announce it either. So unless people know people first hand who are cheating and not being banned we're just making assumptions based off word of mouth.

As an example I can say "Everyone on the PvE leaderboards is using cheat engine to get on them, ZOS won't ban them." which is a statement I just made up, but carries as much weight as anyone saying the same about PvP.

If there is evidence of cheating it should be passed to ZOS, if there is suspicion of cheating it should be passed to ZOS. We can have mature conversation about our beliefs on the level of cheating within Cyrodiil, but we need to stop acting like it's fact when there is nothing backing that up.

The attitude of "everyone who seems good cheats" is just as damaging to the PvP community as the cheaters themselves, it breeds a toxic and unfriendly environment.

Actually, we do know it because some of the people are now back in game on different accounts. We know because they've told us. Again, you aren't listening. ZOS needs to stop expecting the players to do their jobs and get into the game and do it themselves. I now people who have been banned previously are back because they've told me themselves. They've bragged over and over again about their exploiting, have shown other people how to do it, and have not be secretive about it. It isn't my job or your job to be the police of the game. It's ZOS's job to do it. DO it and get these people out of here. You want to immediately enhance the PVP experience? That is one way. I never said everyone who is good is cheating. Not once. And yet you continue to put those words in my mouth as if I did. You say there is nothing to back it up? I say you aren't paying attention then.

Firstly buying a new account after being banned actually isn't against any rules. Jessica even said this was acceptable in a post recently, one would hope that people learn and don't repeat offend if they go down this route.

If they're bragging and showing it all so openly, has that been sent to ZOS? If so by what means and if those means haven't worked yet have people tried sending a PM to Gina/Jessica/Kai or a forums moderator with the information?

None of us know what ZOS is actually doing behind the scenes as they won't talk about it. However if as you said people have been banned and purchased new accounts then clearly bans are happening no?

I've not meant you personally with the everyone good is cheating comments but we see a lot of threads and comments where people say how bad cheating and cheat engine is. Apologies if it came out that way.

As for policing their game I am sure ZOS has some level of measures in place, however ZOS can't be all places at all times and it's going to require players to support them in fighting such actions.
If players are openly bragging to those like yourself of cheating then surely it's easier and faster for you to pass the information on in a short PM than it is to wait for ZOS staff to catch the players out.

I know what you are saying. You are saying that we should continue to do what we have for years now. Report and report with facts. However, this has been done and there is still a problem. If there weren't a problem, these kinds of discussions wouldn't be happening. I'm saying that ZOS needs to go find them - not us. They have the code and they will not have the same questions and doubts we do. I don't want to report someone on a hunch or for "proof" that I have that could be interpreted different ways. ZOS needs to do it themselves and take it out of our hands so all we have to do is play and have fun and know that ZOS is taking care of it.

Okay, so say ZOS does this. How are we going to know, what if a player suspected of cheating remains, we will see the same "ZOS does nothing" threads.

The issue is we perceived as cheating might not be, but we will continue to believe ZOS does nothing. Unless they start communicating on a case (player) by case basis which opens a huge can of worms which will not benefit the game/community.

I support the idea ZOS could do more and communicate more, which I have been very vocal in posting on these forums. However the demands your making seem to be unachievable in the eyes of the community.

All the more reason for ZOS to take it out of our hands and make themselves more responsible for the process. The process itself needs to change in order to change the current negative culture. It is foolishness to continue doing the same thing and expect different results or improvements to happen.

Turelus · November 2017

Earthewen wrote: »

All the more reason for ZOS to take it out of our hands and make themselves more responsible for the process. The process itself needs to change in order to change the current negative culture. It is foolishness to continue doing the same thing and expect different results or improvements to happen.

What way can they achieve this though which will make the player base believe they're doing something without breaking their choice of not discussing issues.

They could make a thread stating "X number of accounts have been banned for breach of ToS" each month but I somehow don't think this will be enough.

Some players are still going to hold a personal feeling that ZOS does nothing to cheaters because their perceived cheaters are not punished. Then they'll start rumours ZOS are faking the numbers or making them up.

It's kind of a damned if they do damned if they don't situation. They're going to say at every turn they're working on it and taking actions where deserved, the community is going to constantly find new "exploiters" and then complain when ZOS doesn't ban them.

The only way I have ever seen it work in an MMO is the way it does now. Players send information on and the company reviews and takes actions without informing players what action was taken. The only time that rule is bent is large cases of cheating/abuse where numbers are given and official statement made.

frozywozy · November 2017

I once witnessed a macroslicer getting ddosed by Camelot Unchained developers with deers and torchbugs.

Anazasi · November 2017

If you have never seen it in game and want proof, well here you go. Can this happen today in live? Don't know, maybe.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EXQ5enFYh4

Turelus · November 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

If you have never seen it in game and want proof, well here you go. Can this happen today in live? Don't know, maybe.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EXQ5enFYh4

@Anazasi that has been addressed and shouldn't be possible any more.

Cheat Engine still works but ZOS tightened their detection and moved additional things to the server from my understanding.
How much is still possible is only something ZOS and those using it would know.

zyk · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

If you have never seen it in game and want proof, well here you go. Can this happen today in live? Don't know, maybe.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EXQ5enFYh4

@Anazasi that has been addressed and shouldn't be possible any more.

Cheat Engine still works but ZOS tightened their detection and moved additional things to the server from my understanding.
How much is still possible is only something ZOS and those using it would know.

This is really naive and inconsistent with what we see in other games.

Consider that ESO has been vulnerable to memory hacking and other forms of cheating since day one, but the flying meteor spam event didn't occur until approx May 2016. Between launch and that event, most players who complained about cheating were mocked and told it was impossible despite ample anecdotal evidence.

Why did it take so long to become public knowledge? There are likely a variety of reasons, but the main reason is that memory hacking takes effort through trial and error and analysis. Those who first learned the tricks kept them to themselves. As time went on, the knowledge was found by others and shared until eventually it was widespread enough for someone like Zaz to get a hold of it.

Post-flying meteor spam, ZOS likely obfuscated a lot of the client data that was vulnerable, making it more difficult to find and tamper with; but not close to impossible. Therefore this knowledge is very valuable and better protected by those who discover it than before.

What happened in 2016 is the cat got out of the bag and was exposed for all of us to see. Now, that cat is back in the bag and people who know better are 'inexplicably' back to trumpeting the horns of plausible deniability. The only thing different now is the knowledge is being more carefully guarded. ESO is just as vulnerable as it always has been. Just as it was from launch until the flying meteor event when cheaters comfortably cheated from the shadows; and some enjoying the accolades in public.

Then, cheaters were all around us and included some of the most respected players. This likely remains true today. We know this because we know the underlying problems haven't been solved (and likely can't without completely re-engineering the game and changing how it plays) and because we know human nature. The reason they were able to operate for so long without overt suspicion is because they cheated in ways that were much more subtle than flying meteor spam because they didn't want to be caught.

Games like ESO that have to trust the client for performance reasons need something like VAC. It is impossible to stop memory hacking in games like this. All you can do is mitigate it. Experienced online gamers know what it looks like when a Dev is fighting cheaters, and this isn't it.

But the cheaters, friends of cheaters, pollyannas and ZOS apologists will continue to say "prove it bro" until the cat comes out of the bag again. Unless you believe ESO has a sainted community, it is pure BS. If anything, cheaters are drawn to games like ESO.

Rudyard · November 2017

+1000, zyk!

Earthewen · November 2017

@zyk , I love ya man! You said exactly what I have been thinking for such a long time! Thank you so much.

SHADOW2KK · November 2017

Upgrade the server hamsters