Soul Assault needs counterplay

cschwingeb14_ESO · November 2017

Medium armor does lack survivability. I'm not arguing that at all. But your numbers are still full of bias.

Heal debuffs don't affect shields, your quite right
Shields can't crit, heals can
Buffs (CP, major/minor, passives, skill effects and armor sets) to healing % are FAR more accessable than buffs to shield strength. You know what they are, don't play stupid.
Comparing 1s tick of a 5s HoT to an ability that delivers all of it's benefit in one shot is just stupid

DDuke · November 2017

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Medium armor does lack survivability. I'm not arguing that at all. But your numbers are still full of bias.

Heal debuffs don't affect shields, your quite right
Shields can't crit, heals can
Buffs (CP, major/minor, passives, skill effects and armor sets) to healing % are FAR more accessable than buffs to shield strength. You know what they are, don't play stupid.
Comparing 1s tick of a 5s HoT to an ability that delivers all of it's benefit in one shot is just stupid

There's too many variables to compare if you start counting everything.

What's my crit % & modifier, is there Major/Minor Defile on me and does my opponent have points in Defile, do I have access to Minor and/or Major Mending/Vitality, how much is my mitigation & crit resistance & how much would a dmg shield help mitigate by negating opponent's crits etc

But in the end, the conclusion is:

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Medium armor does lack survivability.

...and big part of why is how badly stamina defensive abilities scale and how you can't rely on them healing you up anymore (without S&B blocking) because of the ridiculous amount of undodgeable damage in the game.

Waffennacht · November 2017

@Brutusmax1mus ran that exact set up last in BGs. Heals are lackluster, (on a stamden) no way to deal with defile. So if you get focused on by 2+ say GG despite the high resistance.

Trees is nothing like they use to be. When I used it, it did Jack &-+$ for my survival.

Much better to run SnB ult with that ult gen.

Gonna try a similar set up on my stamplar though. With access to purge, the weakness to defile should be less..

BroanBeast1215 · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

and then do really *** damage when SA is done GG

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

and then do really *** damage when SA is done GG

Yea fights are a lot longer and it comes down to lining up cc with your burst. You don't have to hit for 8k surprise attacks to kill peolpe though. It's full damage glyphs with warrior, i think I'm over 4.1k Weapon dmg and 51%crit as a khajiit night blade. Got a picture somewhere if you want to see it.

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Brutusmax1mus ran that exact set up last in BGs. Heals are lackluster, (on a stamden) no way to deal with defile. So if you get focused on by 2+ say GG despite the high resistance.

Trees is nothing like they use to be. When I used it, it did Jack &-+$ for my survival.

Much better to run SnB ult with that ult gen.

Gonna try a similar set up on my stamplar though. With access to purge, the weakness to defile should be less..

Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement. This character is a nb so that's when i stealth and reposition. Trees is crap now, sometimes i run troll king on my warden since i dropped rally for forward momentum. It actually helped a lot with sustain since I'm not casting vigor and spores so much.

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Waffennacht · November 2017

@Brutusmax1mus I did end up putting it on my Templar, subbed spawn for skoria and I am really enjoying it.

The purge makes brass work well as I can heal right back up, while still being able to roll dodge and maneuver out.

I have paired it up with quick cloak for expedition, plus 25% DMG Reduction on a ton of abilities (looking at you sub Assault)

Makes for a very strong up close build

Ultimate_Overlord · November 2017

@TheDoomsdayMonster Please stop. You have never played a medium build, you have never even built a proper build, nor do you know what proper even is in this game. I wouldnt be doing you justice if i just said that youre clueless, the situation is even worse. You have an incredibly twisted understanding of the game. To perform well does not imply earn a lot of ap or kill a lot of poor medium armor players by soul assaulting them in your zerg, it implies accomplishing the 3 core aspects of eso pvp gameplay (sustain, defense, offense) in an effective manner all at the same time. Explaining the subject further is pointless, so ill just point you to this video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU

pieratsos · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.

And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster Please stop. You have never played a medium build, you have never even built a proper build, nor do you know what proper even is in this game. I wouldnt be doing you justice if i just said that youre clueless, the situation is even worse. You have an incredibly twisted understanding of the game. To perform well does not imply earn a lot of ap or kill a lot of poor medium armor players by soul assaulting them in your zerg, it implies accomplishing the 3 core aspects of eso pvp gameplay (sustain, defense, offense) in an effective manner all at the same time. Explaining the subject further is pointless, so ill just point you to this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU

Blah, blah, blah...

You are speaking the same ignorant gibberish that other guy was now...

I'm not in the mood to argue with you, but I will say that several of your assumptions are dead wrong...

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.

And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.

Im taking about 2 or more players on you at the same time. Not 1v1. So its safe to say you may need some external help of you're outnumbered or vs 2 players. Could be as little as a cc or as big as constant healing. Blocking it isn't that bad if you build for some recovery. Blocking the whole thing definitely will leave a dent. It's in no way unrecoverable.

idk · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters
dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)

mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block

kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance

healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally

resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)

It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.

And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.

Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...

But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...

That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...

Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...

How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?

Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.

And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.

Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.

By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.

Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.

I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.

It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.

And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?

There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.

1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength

Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.

My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent

The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.

Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.

@DDuke

If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.

Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds
Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).
Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.

So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.

The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.

Enjoy the game and have a good day.

SodanTok · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Sorry, but if you think properly built medium is to mimic heavy with huge damage loss, you really know nothing. And no that is not complain about his build, he built his medium to minimize weaknesses. You do that because you want to play medium. The 'want' being the important part.

DDuke · November 2017

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters
dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)

mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block

kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance

healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally

resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)

It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.

And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.

Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...

But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...

That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...

Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...

How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?

Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.

And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.

Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.

By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.

Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.

I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.

It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.

And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?

There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.

1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength

Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.

My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent

The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.

Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.

@DDuke

If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.

If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.

idk wrote: »

Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds

Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.

idk wrote: »

Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.

Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).

idk wrote: »

Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.

Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)

idk wrote: »

Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).

What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?

idk wrote: »

Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.

"slightly"(tm)

idk wrote: »

So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.

Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.

But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.

If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.

idk wrote: »

The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.

Enjoy the game and have a good day.

Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).

A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.

pieratsos · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.

And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.

Im taking about 2 or more players on you at the same time. Not 1v1. So its safe to say you may need some external help of you're outnumbered or vs 2 players. Could be as little as a cc or as big as constant healing. Blocking it isn't that bad if you build for some recovery. Blocking the whole thing definitely will leave a dent. It's in no way unrecoverable.

It doesnt matter how many people u are fighting or whether u eventually win or lose. Thats not the point. The point is the available defenses you have and whether u can fight back. If every single defense you have is hard countered then there is obviously something wrong with the design cause there is nothing you can do. Thats not how u promote a skillful game. Exactly, that defense could be as little as a cc. You cant even do that little. SA even gives cc immunity to the caster.

Blocking isnt as bad if you build for recovery? I think you may wanna go and learn how recovery and blocking works before you make such comments.

pieratsos · November 2017

idk wrote: »

The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field.

Until someone who isnt braindead shows up and decides to end the party with a SA and that skilled stamina player can watch his skill go to waste while he is being forced to sit there and block just so he can take 10k dmg and run out of stamina in 3 seconds.

I mean you do realise that this is the purpose of this thread right? Not whether medium armor build can 1vX or not.

paallterrain148 · November 2017

I die to bats more then soul assault. Bats doesn't have a AOE market so a lot of times I miss it. Soul assault is fine in medium unle your outnumbered, because someone will CC you, and that's ok. I'm in medium after all.

As for medium being weak, it is. Remove dodge chance from shuffle and add the words "removes negative effects" to it so we have a purge. And while your at it, add to the passives increased damage to blocking targets to counter tanks.

Just my .02

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Sorry, but if you think properly built medium is to mimic heavy with huge damage loss, you really know nothing. And no that is not complain about his build, he built his medium to minimize weaknesses. You do that because you want to play medium. The 'want' being the important part.

Please stop with your grandiose know it all attitude; his build is good and successful...

That's what matters...

Not your narrow minded view of how medium should be played...

SodanTok · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Sorry, but if you think properly built medium is to mimic heavy with huge damage loss, you really know nothing. And no that is not complain about his build, he built his medium to minimize weaknesses. You do that because you want to play medium. The 'want' being the important part.

Please stop with your grandiose know it all attitude; his build is good and successful...

That's what matters...

Not your narrow minded view of how medium should be played...

Next time I dont know how to play medium after playing medium 99% of my time in 2.5 years of playing this game, I will refer to you, someone that does not play medium and calls builds successful and good because they can survive soul assault.

As you can see, it is hard not to sound narrow minded or as know-it-all when talking to know-nothing-at-all

//edit: Based on your post history, you were playing light armor up to May 5, where you switched to heavy. You don't have just zero experience playing medium, you have probably no experience playing stam at all.

Ragnaroek93 · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Sorry, but if you think properly built medium is to mimic heavy with huge damage loss, you really know nothing. And no that is not complain about his build, he built his medium to minimize weaknesses. You do that because you want to play medium. The 'want' being the important part.

Please stop with your grandiose know it all attitude; his build is good and successful...

That's what matters...

Not your narrow minded view of how medium should be played...

Unfortunately medium armor doesn't has an overpowered set like Vampire Lord Set

BroanBeast1215 · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

and then do really *** damage when SA is done GG

Yea fights are a lot longer and it comes down to lining up cc with your burst. You don't have to hit for 8k surprise attacks to kill peolpe though. It's full damage glyphs with warrior, i think I'm over 4.1k Weapon dmg and 51%crit as a khajiit night blade. Got a picture somewhere if you want to see it.

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Brutusmax1mus ran that exact set up last in BGs. Heals are lackluster, (on a stamden) no way to deal with defile. So if you get focused on by 2+ say GG despite the high resistance.

Trees is nothing like they use to be. When I used it, it did Jack &-+$ for my survival.

Much better to run SnB ult with that ult gen.

Gonna try a similar set up on my stamplar though. With access to purge, the weakness to defile should be less..

Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement. This character is a nb so that's when i stealth and reposition. Trees is crap now, sometimes i run troll king on my warden since i dropped rally for forward momentum. It actually helped a lot with sustain since I'm not casting vigor and spores so much.

Im medium armor stamplar so its a bit different from NB

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Sorry, but if you think properly built medium is to mimic heavy with huge damage loss, you really know nothing. And no that is not complain about his build, he built his medium to minimize weaknesses. You do that because you want to play medium. The 'want' being the important part.

Please stop with your grandiose know it all attitude; his build is good and successful...

That's what matters...

Not your narrow minded view of how medium should be played...

Next time I dont know how to play medium after playing medium 99% of my time in 2.5 years of playing this game, I will refer to you, someone that does not play medium and calls builds successful and good because they can survive soul assault.

As you can see, it is hard not to sound narrow minded or as know-it-all when talking to know-nothing-at-all

//edit: Based on your post history, you were playing light armor up to May 5, where you switched to heavy. You don't have just zero experience playing medium, you have probably no experience playing stam at all.

Well I'll be d@mned...

I wasnt aware that I had to post my entire ESO gaming history here on the forums to validate my opinions...

This is news to me...

Edit: I dont care how long you've been playing Medium; it doesnt make you the authority on what makes a medium build good or bad...

What makes a build good or bad is wether its successful or not...

If his medium build is successful ingame, what you think is "law" doesnt mean a d@mn thing...

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Really tho, brass/ bone pirate/ blood spawn. Full medium, 29k resistance fully buffed. You can eat a soul assault and skoria with out blocking.

Preach!!!

Show them what a properly built Medium Armor build is capable of...

Sorry, but if you think properly built medium is to mimic heavy with huge damage loss, you really know nothing. And no that is not complain about his build, he built his medium to minimize weaknesses. You do that because you want to play medium. The 'want' being the important part.

Please stop with your grandiose know it all attitude; his build is good and successful...

That's what matters...

Not your narrow minded view of how medium should be played...

Unfortunately medium armor doesn't has an overpowered set like Vampire Lord Set

With a build it has synergy with, its much better than its given credit for...

You should try instead of forming opinions without having experimented with said gear set...

Victimize · November 2017

@TheDoomsdayMonster

SugaComa · November 2017

Daus wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

You mean counterplay like hold block and press vigor?

You mean burn all my stam then die since soul assault out DPS's my vigor and Rally? Oh and before the simpleton retorts come in:

25k health, 39k stam, 24k mitigation, 2500 crit resist, 37 elemental defender, 66 Thaurmaturge, and 4200 weapons damage. And yet that move still out DPS's my healing because it's easy to have 100k+ tool tip.

Thaum has no impact on healing

No, but it does affect mitigation against Soul Assault.

How? I thought this was a buff to your own DoTs ?
Seriously, I'm interested in understanding more on this as I was advised to put points into it for my healer and I was, am confused

Strider__Roshin · November 2017

SugaComa wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

You mean counterplay like hold block and press vigor?

You mean burn all my stam then die since soul assault out DPS's my vigor and Rally? Oh and before the simpleton retorts come in:

25k health, 39k stam, 24k mitigation, 2500 crit resist, 37 elemental defender, 66 Thaurmaturge, and 4200 weapons damage. And yet that move still out DPS's my healing because it's easy to have 100k+ tool tip.

Thaum has no impact on healing

No, but it does affect mitigation against Soul Assault.

How? I thought this was a buff to your own DoTs ?
Seriously, I'm interested in understanding more on this as I was advised to put points into it for my healer and I was, am confused

I meant to write Thick skinned, not Thaurmaturge. Your understanding is correct.

idk · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters
dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)

mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block

kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance

healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally

resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)

It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.

And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.

Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...

But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...

That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...

Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...

How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?

Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.

And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.

Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.

By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.

Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.

I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.

It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.

And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?

There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.

1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength

Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.

My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent

The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.

Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.

@DDuke

If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.

If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.

idk wrote: »

Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds

Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.

idk wrote: »

Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.

Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).

idk wrote: »

Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.

Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)

idk wrote: »

Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).

What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?

idk wrote: »

Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.

"slightly"(tm)

idk wrote: »

So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.

Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.

But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.

If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.

idk wrote: »

The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.

Enjoy the game and have a good day.

Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).

A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.

@DDuke

Lmao.

My numbers are accurate. The ever so slight difference between your vigor cost and mine would clearly be explained with 7pc medium due to the extra stam cost reduction. It's fairly common for stam in medium armor to go a full 7 or 6/1.

Your also showing a higher number for the vigor heal. Thx, but my guess is you have a few Co into increasing healing or are getting a healing buff.

Never the less, the higher number your getting from vigor proves my point even further. Thx again.

As for your your different numbers for the shields it's clearly explain by gear build and CP. anyone. Funny how you even say this isn't rocket science yet you say I am inaccurate. What a hypocritical joke. Lol

Of course your way to wiggle around the facts is a magicks user could cast the shield every second. Yea. He isn't doing anything else but burning his magicka.

You were stating a difference of 11x which by even your recent numbers you proved yourself flat wrong. Interesting how that works. Silly to argue about someone not doing any damage to you.

Last, if you have to ask what deadly cloak has to do with anything then this conversation needs to delve into some very basic aspects first.

Again, watch some videos. Not the ones you make since you probably already know what you do. You might learn from others.

I am so glad I don't blame specific skills when I lose but realize there is something I could do different, do better. I certainly don't blame a skill that's been through various nerfs.

Oh, BTW, vigor also crits. Shields done. Thx and enjoy the game.

SugaComa · November 2017

Daus wrote: »

... Also who only plays one type? If you're a PvPer you really need to play as every class and type in the game.

That would be me ... I've tried many different characters but I'm in love with my magic Templar, one a DAD and one a Healer

I have a *** magdk I have no ideas how to make work, and a stamina night blade I use for farming as again I can't make it work

I've a warden and sorc both at level 6 both of which I hate, not sure why I love the Templar class so much , but l mostly play one character in both pve and PvP and and rarely change my gear or set up I like what I have and suits my play style and play time

But I'm always looking to try new things but I can never get anything else to work

Waffennacht · November 2017

@SugaComa when I switch classes I always have a hard time for a bit. Each plays differently. Just as an example, I'll dodge roll more on one, while block is proficient on another, and use shields on a third. If you are use to blocking and you go to a mag character, it feels really weird to not block.

Takes a while to get back on track. Then there are playstyles that just don't mesh - like me and NBs.

dday3six · November 2017

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters
dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)

mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block

kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance

healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally

resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)

It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.

And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.

Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...

But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...

That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...

Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...

How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?

Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.

And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.

Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.

By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.

Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.

I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.

It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.

And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?

There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.

1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength

Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.

My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent

The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.

Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.

@DDuke

If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.

If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.

idk wrote: »

Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds

Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.

idk wrote: »

Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.

Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).

idk wrote: »

Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.

Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)

idk wrote: »

Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).

What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?

idk wrote: »

Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.

"slightly"(tm)

idk wrote: »

So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.

Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.

But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.

If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.

idk wrote: »

The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.

Enjoy the game and have a good day.

Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).

A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.

@dday3six

Lmao.

My numbers are accurate. The ever so slight difference between your vigor cost and mine would clearly be explained with 7pc medium due to the extra stam cost reduction. It's fairly common for stam in medium armor to go a full 7 or 6/1.

Your also showing a higher number for the vigor heal. Thx, but my guess is you have a few Co into increasing healing or are getting a healing buff.

Never the less, the higher number your getting from vigor proves my point even further. Thx again.

As for your your different numbers for the shields it's clearly explain by gear build and CP. anyone. Funny how you even say this isn't rocket science yet you say I am inaccurate. What a hypocritical joke. Lol

Of course your way to wiggle around the facts is a magicks user could cast the shield every second. Yea. He isn't doing anything else but burning his magicka.

You were stating a difference of 11x which by even your recent numbers you proved yourself flat wrong. Interesting how that works. Silly to argue about someone not doing any damage to you.

Last, if you have to ask what deadly cloak has to do with anything then this conversation needs to delve into some very basic aspects first.

Again, watch some videos. Not the ones you make since you probably already know what you do. You might learn from others.

I am so glad I don't blame specific skills when I lose but realize there is something I could do different, do better. I certainly don't blame a skill that's been through various nerfs.

Oh, BTW, vigor also crits. Shields done. Thx and enjoy the game.

Why did you tag me in this?