PVE leaderboards should be removed

Dymence · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

If this thread is about the whole vampirism debate, then maybe you should brush up on your reading skills, as the whole thread is about introducing an optional skin that retains your natural character appearance to hide vampirism.

It actively impacts lore and our world immersion.

I am a vampire and run around with a different skin to hide my vampirism.

Your immersion must be terribly disrupted by this blasphemy.

Axoinus · November 2017

I think the leaderboard are a good tool that advertises OP builds. ZOS should review leaderboard activity and react to data that is outside of the intended trends.

LadyNalcarya · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

It actively impacts lore and our world immersion.

Ahem.
Please reply to this comment.

DjMuscleboy02 · November 2017

I can't tell if this is a troll or quite possibly the stupidest topic I've seen since I began viewing forums.

JackWest92 · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

The ignorance is absolutely astounding. Just because you do not enjoy PVE does not mean PVP is the only competitive part of an MMO. I'd even argue the PVE scene in this game is more competitive than the PVP scene as PVP in ESO currently is an absolute joke.

PVE is also competitive, yes, however actively not encouraging it produced better communities in other games. Competition stays, however with no in-game indication of said competition the remaining population is far less toxic.

Dymence wrote: »

If this thread is about the whole vampirism debate, then maybe you should brush up on your reading skills, as the whole thread is about introducing an optional skin that retains your natural character appearance to hide vampirism.

It actively impacts lore and our world immersion.

So you wanna tell me in whole Tamriel there isnt a single scientist whose relative is bitten, so they find a way to hide that, so he/she can go out without being burned alive by the whole village?

Or none of those 3-4 vampires that can hide their skin is willing to share the secret with the Molag Bal slayer, as a token of grattitude?

mirta000b16_ESO · November 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Gameplay mechanics =/= lore.
I mean, we know that Sybille Stentor is a vampire, but other npcs arent that sure about that (even though she has fangs and glowing eyes).

But we obviously can visibly see it.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Count Verandis Ravenwatch appears as a normal altmer when you first meet him.

The only guy in game that can use illusion to such effect. Might have something to do with the fact that he was a great sorcerer and thousands of years old.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Its funny that you mention that vampire count. Most of nps in Skingrad only mention that he's a very private person. Of course, we can tell he's a vamp because he looks like a vamp, but then again, its a gameplay thing.

His servants obviously know that he's a vampire. He's a very private person because he does not go out to hide his appearance.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

By the way, if you played Oblivion, you might remember another quest, which involves a vampire that looks like a perfectly normal altmer.
In the same game, there's a quest about half-vampire Orc, Grey Prince. If you read his father's journal, it clearly states that his orc lover didnt know about his condition until he told her about that.
Immortal Blood. Nuff said.
Thats just a few examples I can think of. If this is not a proof that well-fed vampire can sustain normal appearance, I dont know what would be.

Well-fed vampires look human, yes. Same as if as a player you kept yourself at level 0. What you're talking about is changing the appearance of level 4, without losing your level 4.

Demycilian · November 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

I would say that noone outside the toxic elements of the playerbase can possibly have an interest in these "leaderboards". Leaves me with the question of why ZOS are maintaining them. Sadly, this company has a knack to go for the wrong choice at every possible opportunity.

Because competition is fun for alot of people. The kind of people that make raiding toxic will make anything they touch toxic eather pvp or pve. How does it affect you if ppl compete leaderboard scores.

Are you now asking me how toxic behaviour does affect other players in an mmo?

I'm asking how does competitive leaderboards existance affect you. As many have stated toxic ppl will just find something else to be toxic at lime PvP. Do you want to be apart of end game pve but can't or something

Nothing wrong with them finding some other theater for toxic drama tho? Another game would do entirely, imo. In that regard i see no point in ZOS providing them with means or incentives.

I couldn’t think of something more toxic than telling others to leave the game though. The hypocrisy is strong.

Merely a question of who leaves and whose interest might get caught by the changes of the community, in my most humble opinion. The state of end game participation does merit some re-thinking.

Yes, end game participation needs more incentives if anything. In the end it’s really easy. If you’re a good enough player (meaning you don’t need to be carried because you manage 15 to 20k DPS, or as a tank can hold Aggro and debuff the NPCs, or as a healer can keep everyone alive and buff your group accordingly), you’ll not encounter any problems. If you’re not you‘re going to be told, leaderboards or no.

I‘m impressed that anyone can honestly believe bad players will be treated better if you remove leaderboards.

Im equally impressed by the fact that there are people being quite pedantic about leaderboards in ESO when there are more prestigious raid environments in other mmo. Talking of bad players and how not everyone has what it takes, would be my thinking.

Love

mirta000b16_ESO · November 2017

JackWest92 wrote: »

So you wanna tell me in whole Tamriel there isnt a single scientist whose relative is bitten, so they find a way to hide that, so he/she can go out without being burned alive by the whole village?

Or none of those 3-4 vampires that can hide their skin is willing to share the secret with the Molag Bal slayer, as a token of grattitude?

The only guy that could actively keep an illusion spell up is dead. Furthermore why would he share secrets with his master's slayer?

LadyNalcarya · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Gameplay mechanics =/= lore.
I mean, we know that Sybille Stentor is a vampire, but other npcs arent that sure about that (even though she has fangs and glowing eyes).

But we obviously can visibly see it.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Count Verandis Ravenwatch appears as a normal altmer when you first meet him.

The only guy in game that can use illusion to such effect. Might have something to do with the fact that he was a great sorcerer and thousands of years old.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Its funny that you mention that vampire count. Most of nps in Skingrad only mention that he's a very private person. Of course, we can tell he's a vamp because he looks like a vamp, but then again, its a gameplay thing.

His servants obviously know that he's a vampire. He's a very private person because he does not go out to hide his appearance.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

By the way, if you played Oblivion, you might remember another quest, which involves a vampire that looks like a perfectly normal altmer.
In the same game, there's a quest about half-vampire Orc, Grey Prince. If you read his father's journal, it clearly states that his orc lover didnt know about his condition until he told her about that.
Immortal Blood. Nuff said.
Thats just a few examples I can think of. If this is not a proof that well-fed vampire can sustain normal appearance, I dont know what would be.

Well-fed vampires look human, yes. Same as if as a player you kept yourself at level 0. What you're talking about is changing the appearance of level 4, without losing your level 4.

Ok, I get it, you didnt even read what I linked. That speaks volumes.
Also, you're lying: stage 1 (theres no stage 0) ESO vampires dont look like humans, and I didnt say anything about stages specifically.

HatchetHaro · November 2017

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

We have a dude that only plays argonians and pulls 60k + dps in raid. You can play sub optimal races you just need to take the time to learn your class and rotation. @HatchetHaro were you at. Also just because leaderboards go away doesn't mean I want to spend 3 hrs in a vaa hm because we brought a bunch of baddies in.

I have been summoned!

While it is true that I do really good damage in raids on my Argonian toons, I am always plagued with the idea that I can do much better if I was a Redguard instead. I really do not like the racial passives in its current state; I feel handicapped by playing what I love instead of picking the "optimal race". Racial passives, right now, are really imbalanced, especially when it comes to the competitive aspect in PvE; the leaderboards are just filled with Redguard and Khajiiti stamina DDs right now, and that upsets me.

However, removing the PvE leaderboards is just a terrible idea on its own; there really is no incentive to run trials other than for leaderboard scores. Most trial loot is easily acquired in a few runs, and even then only the golden jewellery requires a veteran clear to acquire; the rest can just drop in normal.

I think the problem here is that ZOS has failed to balance the stats that also affect cosmetics. I, again, love Argonians, and refuse to play another race, and as a result I am handicapped by it. I detest vampirism; I don't think it's suitable for the lore I build for my characters, it becomes a nuisance in PvP with all the magDKs running around, and it's ugly as hell, but still I must consciously maintain that vampirism due to the great stats it grants me, especially the extra stamina and magicka recovery that is super useful when it comes to trials.

While, true, both scenarios are, technically, my choice, but sadly it is a reluctant acceptance. These scenarios are "play something you like and be handicapped", or to put it more bluntly, "stats vs enjoyment". That's what needs looking at, not the leaderboards.

JackWest92 · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

JackWest92 wrote: »

So you wanna tell me in whole Tamriel there isnt a single scientist whose relative is bitten, so they find a way to hide that, so he/she can go out without being burned alive by the whole village?

Or none of those 3-4 vampires that can hide their skin is willing to share the secret with the Molag Bal slayer, as a token of grattitude?

The only guy that could actively keep an illusion spell up is dead. Furthermore why would he share secrets with his master's slayer?

I am pretty sure someone mentioned twins being able to do the same

Feanor · November 2017

Demycilian wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

I would say that noone outside the toxic elements of the playerbase can possibly have an interest in these "leaderboards". Leaves me with the question of why ZOS are maintaining them. Sadly, this company has a knack to go for the wrong choice at every possible opportunity.

Because competition is fun for alot of people. The kind of people that make raiding toxic will make anything they touch toxic eather pvp or pve. How does it affect you if ppl compete leaderboard scores.

Are you now asking me how toxic behaviour does affect other players in an mmo?

I'm asking how does competitive leaderboards existance affect you. As many have stated toxic ppl will just find something else to be toxic at lime PvP. Do you want to be apart of end game pve but can't or something

Nothing wrong with them finding some other theater for toxic drama tho? Another game would do entirely, imo. In that regard i see no point in ZOS providing them with means or incentives.

I couldn’t think of something more toxic than telling others to leave the game though. The hypocrisy is strong.

Merely a question of who leaves and whose interest might get caught by the changes of the community, in my most humble opinion. The state of end game participation does merit some re-thinking.

Yes, end game participation needs more incentives if anything. In the end it’s really easy. If you’re a good enough player (meaning you don’t need to be carried because you manage 15 to 20k DPS, or as a tank can hold Aggro and debuff the NPCs, or as a healer can keep everyone alive and buff your group accordingly), you’ll not encounter any problems. If you’re not you‘re going to be told, leaderboards or no.

I‘m impressed that anyone can honestly believe bad players will be treated better if you remove leaderboards.

Im equally impressed by the fact that there are people being quite pedantic about leaderboards in ESO when there are more prestigious raid environments in other mmo. Talking of bad players and how not everyone has what it takes, would be my thinking.

Love

If you don’t „have“ it - which is totally fine by the way - why do leaderboards bother you? If someone is a jerk about your performance he is either right or just that - a jerk. Leaderboards don’t change that.

mirta000b16_ESO · November 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Ok, I get it, you didnt even read what I linked. That speaks volumes.
Also, you're lying: stage 1 (theres no stage 0) ESO vampires dont look like humans, and I didnt say anything about stages specifically.

I read the lore directly when I was playing said games. If you want to change stage 1, that's not too bad, however, most of the change that's needed is eyes only as the skincolour is passable for a living being anyway.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/89702/altmer-vampire-all-stages

Feanor · November 2017

Maybe we can agree on removing Vampires from the leaderboards. So both useless threads get a solution at the same time.

JackWest92 · November 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Maybe we can agree on removing Vampires from the leaderboards. So both useless threads get a solution at the same time.

I am gonna be the first to say "Bingo!"

mirta000b16_ESO · November 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Maybe we can agree on removing Vampires from the leaderboards. So both useless threads get a solution at the same time.

That sounds like a good solution lol
Still leaves the racial passives problem, but that one doesn't seem as widespread.

Feanor · November 2017

JackWest92 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Maybe we can agree on removing Vampires from the leaderboards. So both useless threads get a solution at the same time.

I am gonna be the first to say "Bingo!"

This was sarcasm by the way, if you failed to get it.

Kikke · November 2017

Agreed with Valera Progib

JackWest92 · November 2017

Feanor wrote: »

JackWest92 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Maybe we can agree on removing Vampires from the leaderboards. So both useless threads get a solution at the same time.

I am gonna be the first to say "Bingo!"

This was sarcasm by the way, if you failed to get it.

I responded with sarcasm to your sarcasm. Wasnt me that didnt get it :P

GreenhaloX · November 2017

I'm sure most, if not all, those on the leaderboards are hardcore gamers. Good for them for going all out. If leaderboards are to be removed, you will have an outcry from those keyboard warriors. Casual players, such as I, don't care much for such a thing. For me, it is just another video game to pass the time. However, I'm not knocking those on the top lists or world first at this or world first at that for this game. I'm sure it just something that gives certain people/players relevancy. Hey, whatever tips their fancy. This game is good for that.. play how you want to play.

Dymence · November 2017

Also, you seem to completely misunderstand what the point of min maxing is.

You don't min max your characters to achieve a certain goal, and certainly not to get a good score on the leaderboards. Min maxing is a state of mind. Wanting your character to be the absolute most powerful it can get. It does not matter what game I play. Be it an MMO or some single player game, I will min max the *** out of my character just so that I can destroy whatever is in my way with overwhelming power. It is the most enjoyable way for me and likely many others to play games.

Now back to ESO. Being an MMO, it means you are able to measure the power of your character you so fanatically min maxed with other players! Isn't that great? That's where PVE raiding comes in. You get to compare your performance and DPS with other players. But a raid group can't sustain itself from just that. That's where goals come in. First it will obviously be progression, and later leaderboards offer a way for groups to continue playing towards another goal.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · November 2017

Voxicity wrote: »

Yeah, remove the little remaining part of content for competitive PvE players so not just half of them quit the game, but all of them

If you're playing a game just for rankings on a leaderboard, you really should be playing a different game.

GreenhaloX · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

EDIT: a lot of answers in this thread very well prove the level of toxicity that this community has sunk to.

Well, I don't know how low this community has supposedly sunk to, but, in hindsight, I can agree somewhat that there seem to be a lot of toxicities on this forum and in-game.

Tyrion87 · November 2017

This thread won't end well...

But I could agree on one thing though. I would like the races to have only 'flavour' and purely cosmetic passive bonuses, while all other combat-related passives could be moved to a separate category where we could choose passives during character creation (and that could be changed when e.g rerolling to stam from mag and vice versa, maybe even in the crown store, pretty much like race change atm). That way I could finally see wizard Bosmers or warrior Altmers in this game which do exist in the world of Tamriel. It could be fun and more diverse.

But PVE leaderboards removal? What a horrible idea....

JackWest92 · November 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

EDIT: a lot of answers in this thread very well prove the level of toxicity that this community has sunk to.

Well, I don't know how low this community has supposedly sunk to, but, in hindsight, I can agree somewhat that there seem to be a lot of toxicities on this forum and in-game.

Well, some people find a topic, where person suggest smth that they would like changed in the game, explain why the change is a good idea, provide info how that thing to be done. Then, they comment something along the lines of "stop being so entitled. Play the game as it is. Whats next? [insert redicilous request]".
Being toxic will only get you toxicity in return

kwisatz · November 2017

Why remove leader-boards?
If you are not the competitive kind, do the competitive people arm you in any way? If they want to struggle for speed clears or owing their place on LB, they are not depriving anybody from playing other ways.

Personally, I hate speed clears, farming, grinding, competition and most of things usually mandatory when you are a MMO player. Anyway, as long I can play my way, at my own pace and immersion style, leaderboards are not a problem to me.

Demycilian · November 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

I would say that noone outside the toxic elements of the playerbase can possibly have an interest in these "leaderboards". Leaves me with the question of why ZOS are maintaining them. Sadly, this company has a knack to go for the wrong choice at every possible opportunity.

Because competition is fun for alot of people. The kind of people that make raiding toxic will make anything they touch toxic eather pvp or pve. How does it affect you if ppl compete leaderboard scores.

Are you now asking me how toxic behaviour does affect other players in an mmo?

I'm asking how does competitive leaderboards existance affect you. As many have stated toxic ppl will just find something else to be toxic at lime PvP. Do you want to be apart of end game pve but can't or something

Nothing wrong with them finding some other theater for toxic drama tho? Another game would do entirely, imo. In that regard i see no point in ZOS providing them with means or incentives.

I couldn’t think of something more toxic than telling others to leave the game though. The hypocrisy is strong.

Merely a question of who leaves and whose interest might get caught by the changes of the community, in my most humble opinion. The state of end game participation does merit some re-thinking.

Yes, end game participation needs more incentives if anything. In the end it’s really easy. If you’re a good enough player (meaning you don’t need to be carried because you manage 15 to 20k DPS, or as a tank can hold Aggro and debuff the NPCs, or as a healer can keep everyone alive and buff your group accordingly), you’ll not encounter any problems. If you’re not you‘re going to be told, leaderboards or no.

I‘m impressed that anyone can honestly believe bad players will be treated better if you remove leaderboards.

Im equally impressed by the fact that there are people being quite pedantic about leaderboards in ESO when there are more prestigious raid environments in other mmo. Talking of bad players and how not everyone has what it takes, would be my thinking.

Love

If you don’t „have“ it - which is totally fine by the way - why do leaderboards bother you? If someone is a jerk about your performance he is either right or just that - a jerk. Leaderboards don’t change that.

The convenient thing about these debates is that the right sort of people rarely fail to make your point for you. Merci bien.

JackWest92 · November 2017

kwisatz wrote: »

Why remove leader-boards?
If you are not the competitive kind, do the competitive people arm you in any way? If they want to struggle for speed clears or owing their place on LB, they are not depriving anybody from playing other ways.

Personally, I hate speed clears, farming, grinding, competition and most of things usually mandatory when you are a MMO player. Anyway, as long I can play my way, at my own pace and immersion style, leaderboards are not a problem to me.

Because the guy is salty of everyone asking for the option to hide the ugly skin from vampirism, so this topic is his response

LadyNalcarya · November 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Ok, I get it, you didnt even read what I linked. That speaks volumes.
Also, you're lying: stage 1 (theres no stage 0) ESO vampires dont look like humans, and I didnt say anything about stages specifically.

I read the lore directly when I was playing said games. If you want to change stage 1, that's not too bad, however, most of the change that's needed is eyes only as the skincolour is passable for a living being anyway.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/89702/altmer-vampire-all-stages

Then Im not sure how you missed all those characters I mentioned.
Skin color is not the only issue with vamp appearance, ESO vampires cant wear makeup, facepaint and/or tattoos for some reason, which doesnt make any sense. This issue is also discussed in all those "change vamp appearance, please!" threads.
As for stages, my personal opinion doesnt matter. I'm firmly against ruining the game for other players only because they enjoy something I dont like.
Speaking of which, not being happy with vamp appearance isnt strictly related to leaderboards. After all, people from raiding guilds already have skins to hide it.

There are also players who want to rp as a vampire that hides their identity, or just want their character to be a vampire because their Skyrim character was.
Btw... In Skyrim, vampirism didnt really change your appearance, except for eyes and fangs (unless you were a Volkihar vampire). If gameplay = canon (which is kinda silly, because it means that 99% of Tamriel population are bandits and Imperial City population consists of 50-70 people), then vampirism shouldnt even change char's skintone.

P.S. There's no "stage 0" vampirism. The character on the first picture isnt a vampire. Maybe she already contacted Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, but she isnt a vampire yet.

Asardes · November 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

It's very apparent from the vampirism thread that players feel forced into specific races, or conditions just to be at max possible optimization to get on that leaderboard. Without a leaderboard worlds first races would still happen, however I believe that it would help to alleviate the toxicity between anyone below that level. FFXIV and GW2 avoided putting in leaderboards for PVE environment for this very reason. Everyone should get the same rewards, regardless how fast they finished the content as long as they finished it.

PvP is the competitive part of an MMO. There's no need for players to be experiencing toxicity when they're playing the PVE part of the game.

Not true at all. Never had a problem getting on leaderboards, My Sorc is Dunmer, My NB a Breton. Race choice provides very very little gains ( exception being an Argonian Tank) Vampirism isn't strictly needed either for PVE, the extra regen... if that's what you mean post morrowind is negligible and sustain is now destroyed imo and makes barely any difference.

And removing rewards achieves nothing. There are incentives for running them so what do you propose they do with them? Just send a reward for the unworthy out and reward your participation for taking 3hrs to complete VAA with a 3 digit score?

PvP campaign rewards you with a bag of bricks if you did less than 100K AP. They should give something similar for shoddy trial completion, I mean something borderline useless, like extra Yokeda set pieces