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ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A
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zampharotti1337Soul ShrivenSo...you get a huge cast bar in the middle of the screen that shows a player is casting a surprise attack on you, a player which u shouldn't even know its there...maybe because that is the point of sneaking? And everything seems to be fine here. Ok...good to know the direction this game is going to.5 -
Vizikul✭✭✭✭This thread. Its time to stop.
lol Idk why but this picture reminds me of the pyramid head from the silent hill series.Pugging. Pugging all the way to victory.Imperial Dragonknight --- male, stamina, heavy & medium armor, dual wield, one hand and shield, two handed.
Breton Templar --- female, magicka, light armor, restoration staff.
Redguard Warden --- female, stamina, medium armor, bow.
Breton Sorcerer --- male, magicka, light armor, destruction staff.
Imperial Templar --- male, stamina, medium armor, two handed.
Daggerfall Covenant loyalist2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Why not address that before zos announces its removing api functionality from your addon? Genuine honest question.
Address what?:) Invisibility of channels from stealth? I already did. Start a 'campaign' for those to change that? That won't work. ZOS don't talk to us.The difference in damage between channeled skills and instant cast skills is directly to make overall dps roughly equal. If all channeled skills had the same lesser damage as instant skills you would be at a loss to use them because you could pour out more damage spamming more skills with the same damage. This should be enough to make them (instant and channeled) equally viable.
Channels got 1.1sec channel time. Instants got 1sec global cd. Both can be anim canceled with light attacks.
0.1 sec (10%) different in channel time and lack of bash in anim cancel sequence doesn't justify 40% more damage on the channels (and additional effects tied to them). So damage and effect wise spamming a channel provides noticeably more effect than instants. That's kind of is the point.But you argue that because channeled skills do higher damage they should always be interrupted as a counter to it
I can't argue for a stupid thing. I argue that the targets should be provided with a way to notice and try to interrupt them. By design.. Always interrupting through notification makes channeled skills completely useless since as the caster you would waste time and resources for nothing, and would give a huge advantage to instant cast skills.
The perfect player will always prevent a channel from hitting him by reacting to them. The same perfect player will always prevent as instant attack from hitting him, by anticipating them.
You make it sound as if cyro is full with these perfect people, for whom getting notified about a channel is equal to preventing it. In the meanwhile i've hit 70% of snipes without stealth over 3 hours of cyro pvp (~1000 snipes fired) over the course of an experiment. Where are those perfect people, that's my question?This is evidenced in any number of places, from vma (how many times do you get killed by Voriak Salkyn's Necrotic wave after you learn his tell for interrupt? There is no cue or combat alert for this, yet many complete vma) to the current pvp community who have by and large abandoned these skills.
Pvp community didn't abandon them at all. Even after stealth damage nerf (and that stealth damage actually was the reason why we even had an abundance of gankers at the first place).Which brings me to ask why, in your opinion, do you believe we need an additional counter (or bringing a counter from say, 50% chance based on skill to 100% chance based on no skill) to channeled skills but no counter to instant cast skills? Instant skills have no counterplay but you do not seem concerned with this.
See above. 70% of snipes hit (non-dodged and non-blocked). Give me those perfect players please. And instant cast skills do not require a counter. You anticipate them. And pre-dodge, pre-block, pre-shield them. They are working as intended.The only reason i can think of is that channeled abilities are often incorporated into macros which give huge burst damage of many skills at once (which has no real counterplay), and to that i would say that that is a completely different issue that needs to be addressed, but not in a way that ruins balance of the base game for innocent players who do not use macros.
No macros exist that can do anything like what you describe. You can't circumvent global cd on skills.It maybe overestimates the skill and cleverness of the average player. Currently interrupt happens all of the time in pve and is absolutely necessary to progress through content yet there is no notification or visual cue beyond npc posture. Players are very practiced with this so i am not sure why you believe the transition of that to pvp is so harrowing.
Because i don't consider 1v1 encounters at all. The addon is disabled in duels, since it does nothing important there.
I don't consider xv1 or zergvzerg. I purely consider 1vx and 1xganker(-s). That's the environment where the addon is useful.
Pve doesn't have these type of environments or i'd definitely added similar alerts there.Incorrect, zos has added several features to the base game that originally existed (and still do) as add ons. Furthermore these are combat based, so they are very, very similar to your addon. These features zos added are combat text including statuses like stunned or off-balance and damage ticks (originally available only through ftc or cloud combat etc) and buff/debuff trackers (aui, srendarrs etc).
I'm aware about that. How does it validate your claim that if ZOS did not add something - it was not meant to exist in the game?
Before ZOS added their bufftracker, were addons bufftrackers not intended?:)The source of my claim that zos would and could add a visual telegraph if it was intended is one, pve bosses and mobs currently do not have advanced cues or visual alerts for channeled skills and players advance through content just fine (we often see our skills with similar tells to pve versions), and two, that zos would add the functionality of Miat's PVP alerts to the base game if it was an intended part of combat like the addons above I mentioned (rather than removing the API).
See above:) Can we assume that if ZOS immediately didn't add some addon functionality to the game, that this addon shouldn't exist? What about Azuras, Awesome Guild Store, Skyshards, Lorebooks or literally anything else that ZOS didn't add to the base ui? Should we ask to remove them all on the same basis?P)Players complained about combat vs proc sets, they added a combat cue to the base game.
For the proc sets? They added delays to all of them:) Circles on the ground is an unnecessary cherry on the top.They complained about buffs and damage trackers, they added these. Currently there is no core combat feature that is left out of the base game. Addons are currently addons, providing frills like potion timers, quickslot ui or kill counters. There is nothing so important as combat cues from an otherwise unrecognizable source provided only by addon. The one exception to this statement is being adjusted by zos.
So, using your stance, we should wait until the add my addon's features to the base game, right?:)Heavy is being nerfed, and nowhere did i imply we needed to get rid of higher costs.
'Higher costs' as in 'higher additional requirements (visibility of channels) to offset the power of channeled skills.I think you would benefit from rereading my statement.
*sighs*I have suggested no change to the game or its mechanics beyond eliminating channeled skill notification to opponents beyond regular animation cues.
And i argue that you ask to promote exploits regarding hiding channels of those skills.Again, If a clear telegraph was meant to exist zos would either let the api remain for your addon or add it themselves to the base game (like proc set cues as i stated above). Maybe one day they will, but so far the evidence i see points to this lack being intentional by zos.
So let's wait until they do.I'm confident that using any one of the numerous channeled skills in the game is not an exploit. If it was we all would be banned.
Using them is not an exploit. Using them in a manner to hide the drawbacks, while leaving the power intact is the definition of an exploit.
If there was a way to retain mag regen in a mist form, wouldn't it be an exploit of the intended skill design?:)Again you are suggesting using skills built into zos' skill trees are exploits, which they are not. There currently already is depth to the game and it doesnt need to be added, but you are calling it an exploit rather than seeing it for the rich combat diversity that it is.
*patiently* Using them is not an exploit. Using them in a manner to hide the drawbacks, while leaving the power intact is the definition of an exploit.I wont argue about your mission against stealth. I have inner light and stealth potions slotted so i personally have no issue with it.
Should we all slot inner light both bars because other people are allowed to exploit skill design in this game?I am not sure also if you have ever tried to play a gank build and i can say hands down that playstyle takes a ridiculous amount of skill.
Have you tried not to gank?:) I can assure you take it ' takes a ridiculous amount of skill' on top of what any ganking build requires.Incorrect, inner light and stealth potions allow you to recognise a target channeling a skill from stealth.
You're sure you don't mix up 'recognize' with 'getting hit for less'?:)
Do you 'use inner light and stealth potions' to make channels from stealth visible?:) Is that when and why you use them?:)You are mixing counters for stealth with counters for channeled abilities when in reality they are different and already exist separately.
Yet again. I don't talk about counters. I never made any counters. I make stuff noticeable. If you expect to kill a player without him noticing that you're killing him - isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to talk about counters?:) Or is it 'counters to the cheese' that we're talking about?:)How did you make the channeling of other players visible? Wasnt it by writing a script? I mean, we can call it baking cupcakes if using the word script offends you, but it still is what it is and now we're talking semantics.
By adding a ui feature to make some information visible.
if you call that 'a script' so be it:)I respect the core of what you are trying to promote: If I understand correctly you would like the ability to react to stealthed attacks.It is still possible that zos could add, for example, a visual cue of a charged channel attack from stealth like they do with for example Dogas the Berserker, and they still might. However, the difference between Dogas' tell and what your addon provides and what you are arguing for is that a visual tell like Dogas' does not make combat with channeled abilities for characters out of stealth an impossibility while the API that reveals channeled attacks makes ALL channeled abilities useless.
How again they are impossible? What was i doing wrong with 70% hit chance of snipe? What dozens of people i see daily in cyro doing wrong when they use snipes, flares, dizzying swings etc? What some people i know do wrong when they play with snipe for years?Edited by Dorrino on October 26, 2017 6:33PM1 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Dorrino
Why do you think that using a channeled skill in stealth(and thus hiding it)is an exploit? how can you know that the game wasn't designed that way? considering that casting certain skills while in stealth/cloak pulls you out of it like healing ward for example.
If you, me or any other player thinks that a certain skill/mechanic/set/etc is ''OP'' or ''cheap'' it's still a subjective opinion, we can complain about it, ask for it to be nerfed, suggest some kind of change/rework to it, etc but in the end only ZOS has the final word on how they envision their own game.
It seems that you try to use your own subjective view of this specific interaction of skill and mechanic to justify why channels from stealth is an ''exploit'' and why your addon provides more ''counterplay''.
If ZOS decided that using certain skills from stealth/cloak and not breaking it is intended, who are you to argue against their balance decisions? or to invalidate them via some 3rd party addon?Edited by Alaztor91 on October 26, 2017 7:56PM3 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yet again. I don't talk about counters. I never made any counters. I make stuff noticeable. If you expect to kill a player without him noticing that you're killing him - isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to talk about counters?:) Or is it 'counters to the cheese' that we're talking about?:)
I made my case respectfully, i see you are not capable of that yourself. I am not sure why you think I am being hypocritical talking about counters, I didnt call you out on anything and I don't think I was rude. But In my opinion, if you are not considering the picture of combat holistically including counters, you don't have a hope in hell of convincing zos your idea is the right one to listen to when they balance the combat system.
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Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭@Dorrino
Why do you think that using a channeled skill in stealth(and thus hiding it)is an exploit?
"Using them in a manner to hide the drawbacks, while leaving the power intact is the definition of an exploit."
Channeled skills have increased power of the hit (damage, effects) compared to instant skills.
This power has to be justified (explained) if the game tries to keep all types of skills viable.
This power is justified by having a pre-channel time.
Pre-channel time by itself is not a problem. Its susceptibility to interrupts and higher windows for the target reaction is.
If the pre-channel can't be interrupted nor detected, what's left there is the pure damage part. That outperforms the damage part of instant skills.
If the game has 2 types of skills and one type has 40% more damage than the other type - then if everything else is equal, this types of skills are not balanced within the game.
While pre-channel part is detectable, these skills are (can be) balanced against each other. If it can be made hidden - channeled skills start to severely outperform instant skills.
Hiding the channel, therefore makes channeled skills outperform instant skills, without any additional mechanics to balance it out.
Conclusion - hiding channel part of channeled skills is intentional attempt to get rid of the design drawbacks, that made those skills balanced. I.e. an exploit.how can you know that the game wasn't designed that way?
Because:
1. Nothing in the game skill and mechanics description explicitly mentions interaction between channels and stealth.
2. ZOS didn't comment on that interaction.
3. From skill design perspective it's an exploit unless explicitly justified.considering that casting certain skills while in stealth/cloak pulls you out of it like healing ward for example.
Which can serve as a guidance that channeled skills unintentionally perform differently.If you, me or any other player thinks that a certain skill/mechanic/set/etc is ''OP'' or ''cheap'' it's still a subjective opinion, we can complain about it, ask for it to be nerfed, suggest some kind of change/rework to it, etc but in the end only ZOS has the final word on how they envision their own game.
That is true if that player 'thinks or believes' that. I don't 'think' that. This conclusion follows channeled skills design themselves. I might misinterpret that design, but then i need some compelling reasons for that.It seems that you try to use your own subjective view of this specific interaction of skill and mechanic to justify why channels from stealth is an ''exploit'' and why your addon provides more ''counterplay''.
This might happen, but your statement definitely needs a justification that hopefully will follow.If ZOS decided that using certain skills from stealth/cloak and not breaking it is intended,
who are you to argue against their balance decisions? or to invalidate them via some 3rd party addon?
If ZOS provides a confirmation and a justification behind their decision whatever it may be - this interaction won't be able to be considered an exploit anymore.who are you to argue against their balance decisions
A person who has something to say about their decision?Yet again. I don't talk about counters. I never made any counters. I make stuff noticeable. If you expect to kill a player without him noticing that you're killing him - isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to talk about counters?:) Or is it 'counters to the cheese' that we're talking about?:)
I made my case respectfully, i see you are not capable of that yourself.
I apologize if that came off as offensive.I am not sure why you think I am being hypocritical talking about counters, I didnt call you out on anything and I don't think I was rude.
I don't think you are being hypocritical. I think a person that 'expects to kill a player without the player noticing that he's killing him' is being hypocritical, but applying a concept of 'counters' to other people and not to himself.
If you're that person, then yes, i think you're being hypocritical.But In my opinion, if you are not considering the picture of combat holistically including counters,
In my understanding gankers are exactly the people who 'are not considering the picture of combat holistically including counter'. That's more or less a definition of ganking. A fight where one of the parties is devoid from means of defense. In the current case by an exploit.you don't have a hope in hell of convincing zos your idea is the right one to listen to when they balance the combat system.
I don't care about convincing ZOS about anything. ZOS refuse to fix bugs for years and to have any kind of dialog with the community. Who's there to convince?Edited by Dorrino on October 26, 2017 8:33PM0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Exploit Definition is this actually .
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
Video game exploits - Wikipedia
Wikipedia › wiki › Video_game_exploits
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Dorrino
I think it can be summed up like this: you believe cast times & channel animations (including heavy attacks I suppose) should take precedence over the stealth mechanic, where as other people in the thread (myself included) think that it should be the other way around.
Yep. Because i do see the need for the channels to be noticeable (drawback, that justifies their power) and don't see a compelling reason why they should not.
...and I don't see a compelling reason on why they should get such a nerf, given how they aren't meta builds or generally considered "overpowered" - even on consoles where your addon doesn't exist.
How long it's been like that isn't the point, the point is that developers made stealth mechanic take precedence over channel animations for a reason and if you want them to change that you'll have to come up with a better argument and consider how such a change would affect the overall balance of things.That is why I consider using cast time abilities from stealth, invisibility or out of camera angle as clever use of game mechanics & good positioning rather than something sinister or unfair.
Above. And if there indeed was a clever use of game mechanics, something that was more skillful than not using stealth, we might have a discussion here. But currently it's the most easily accessible way to circumvent the intended design, that anybody with any skill level can perform to the efficiency that should not be provided for such a low effort.
If we're to talk about something as biased as "skill", then you'd do well to consider that if such a "low skill level build" was able to perform efficiently, we'd see a lot more 1v1/1vX videos & streams with these cast time builds and they'd be part of the meta - which they are not.
People still flock to the instant cast "hold block & hit buttons" builds, because those are the ones that are easiest to play & most efficient.
"Ganking" successfully on the other hand requires a lot of skill and for that reason most bow users (and melee "gankers") I come across are more like walking AP piñatas.My addon changes this ratio back to a skillful play. For instance, if the channels are undetectable - this provide for an unskillful play of snipe into ambush, if they are detectable - than a skillful play of charging snipe to force a dodge than canceling it in the mid and charging again provides a way to juke the opponent and still perform a burst combo.
So you consider Snipe->weapon swap->Ambush+Incap/SA less "skillful" than spamming Snipe twice in a row?
For the record, canceling your Snipe doesn't really do anything (doesn't even save stamina since you lose regen tick by blocking) because the dodge roll will make the second one miss as well (it's enough to dodge roll during cast animation for a skill to miss).
Also, your opponent can simply wait until the arrow is in the air before dodging - there's no hurry (especially when they see exactly when it'd begin traveling towards you with your addon).The later is much harder to do, but the result fully relies on the skill difference of both the attacker and the defender.
I still fail to see, how undetectable burst can have any relation to a skillful play.
You think creating the conditions for that "undetectable burst" doesn't require any skill?
Try getting a Cloak->Snipe+Asylum Acid Spray off against a stam DK spamming volatile armor at you. We'll see how that goes
The Asylum Bow "Shotgun Combo" as I call it requires you to be exactly between 10-20m from your opponent for it to work - too close & Acid Spray lands before Snipe, too far away & target won't be in Acid Spray range (or can hear/see the projectile & dodge in time). Not easy. Feel free to try before judging.
As for sneak specifically, that also requires perfect rotation & positioning and the burst isn't undetectable even then as there is the sound/visual cue.But you have a different opinion.
Now, I'd like to know if that personal opinion is backed by any game balance concerns - because that's the only thing that really matters in the end.
From what I've heard, bow snipers or dark flare magplars aren't exactly the meta builds on console (maybe a console player can clarify this), which leads me to believe the game is just fine even when people can utilize stealth/positioning for clever combos.
Balance doesn't imply that all the specs are equally effective. Balance provides for similar effort-to-effectiveness ratio.
A question, what do you think is easier to perform double snipe from stealth or ambush -> fear-> la +sa + bash -> *enemy dodges* -> *timing another la + sa + bash right after the dodge?
The end damage is the same. Which of the two has much higher skill requirement with the same obtainable result?
Both are bad combos I'd never use, but I'd say the Snipe->Snipe is far harder to land than the Ambush->Fear(good player will instantly CC break+dodge roll here)->LA+SA+Bash.
You can read above on the bow wombo combo in this patch - not easy to land at all.As i see it, you propose for both of them to be equally effective, which in my mind is a blatant promotion of unskillful combat.
Your combo deals far less damage than the bow combo.
(Cloak->)Heavy Attack+SA->Incap with Selene proc deals around the same damage as the bow combo though, and based on my testing on the PTS is still easier to land than the bow combo.
No amount of personal skill will land you any cast time ability against even a single semi-decent player using your addon, I can promise you that.
Now imagine fighting multiple people using your addon and relying on that Lethal Arrow to land so you can get enemy numbers down & cloak+relocate before they overwhelm you.Not only do you need good positioning & situational awareness, you also need perfect timing, perfect build & a squishy enough opponent.
Just like any other spec that doesn't exploit stealth for hiding the channels. This sounds like gankers suddenly start to require more skill than less:)
A cast time build requires far more positioning & situational awareness than other builds. You position wrong and people won't run into your traps, people will interrupt your cast times & they'll quite simply just kill you if you play a bow build (Marksman+Morag Tong=not much healing).
Most builds can just hold block/dodge to survive with heals, or shield up. Not "gank" builds.
Timing also needs to precise on cast time builds running Volcanic Rune or fear trap (which are must slot skills for cast time builds imo) - it can be the difference between winning/losing.Edited by DDuke on October 26, 2017 8:47PM0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the Webster definition .
Definition of exploit
:deed, act; especially :a notable or heroic act
NEW! Time Traveler
First Known Use: 15th century
SEE WORDS FROM THE SAME YEAR
Webster says an Exploit is a heroic act . Didn't see that coming ... lol Maybe we need a new word to describe unintended advantages .2 -
PlagueSD✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have a fix for Miat's Addon.
DISABLE ALL API calls in PvP (I know they can do this because they don't allow Non-combat pets in PvP). That way NO addons will work, but will leave them available for us that use them in PvE.5 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭...and I don't see a compelling reason on why they should get such a nerf, given how they aren't meta builds or generally considered "overpowered" - even on consoles where your addon doesn't exist.
I agree with this, but strongly disagree that we need to use exploits to 'fix' it.the point is that developers made stealth mechanic take precedence over channel animations for a reason
Could you please provide a proof for both of these claims?and if you want them to change that you'll have to come up with a better argument and consider how such a change would affect the overall balance of things.
I'd definitely be able to as soon as i have a point to counter.If we're to talk about something as biased as "skill", then you'd do well to consider that if such a "low skill level build" was able to perform efficiently, we'd see a lot more 1v1/1vX videos & streams with these cast time builds and they'd be part of the meta - which they are not.
We had all of that a plenty before crit damage from stealth nerf (including the whole lifespan of my addon).People still flock to the instant cast "hold block & hit buttons" builds, because those are the ones that are easiest to play & most efficient.
And thus is what 'low effort playstyle' is nowadays. Do you think that reviving another low effort playstyle helps the pvp as a whole?"Ganking" successfully on the other hand requires a lot of skill and most bow users (and melee "gankers") I come across are more like walking AP piñatas.
This level skill is incomparable with non-ganking (and as if you wish, non-blocking) playstyles. And, unlike channels from stealth, block builds don't try to exploit any game mechanics.So you consider Snipe->weapon swap->Ambush+Incap/SA less "skillful" than spamming Snipe twice in a row?
No i don't.For the record, canceling your Snipe doesn't really do anything (doesn't even save stamina since you lose regen tick by blocking) because the dodge roll will make the second one miss as well (it's enough to dodge roll during cast animation for a skill to miss).
Also, your opponent can simply wait until the arrow is in the air before dodging - there's no hurry (especially when they see exactly when it'd begin traveling towards you with your addon).
He won't be able to wait it out in 1vx. Again i don't consider 1v1 as being irrelevant to the addon.
The only relevance would be a ganker trying to kill the target without any defense from the said target.
Then i'd argue that the addon does an awesome service to the pvp community by making a non-skill unfair play harder.You think creating the conditions for that "undetectable burst" doesn't require any skill?
I think creating these conditions require minuscule amounts 'skill' compared to a fight against a target that actively tries to protect himself.Try getting a Cloak->Snipe+Asylum Acid Spray off against a stam DK spamming volatile armor at you. We'll see how that goes
So you can shoot snipe before the spray and still get the benefit from the later (because it will still land first)?
Good to know. This clearly is an exploit of the asylum bow effect design and needs to be reported. Thank you for this.The Asylum Bow "Shotgun Combo" as I call it requires you to be exactly between 10-20m from your opponent for it to work - too close & Acid Spray lands before Snipe, too far away & target won't be in Acid Spray range (or can hear/see the projectile & dodge in time). Not easy. Feel free to try before judging.
Compared to any actual interaction between you and a good opponent this difficulty is negligible.As for sneak specifically, that also requires perfect rotation & positioning and the burst isn't undetectable even then as there is the sound/visual cue.
All that (while indeed might requiring some practice) is required for non gank fights as well. But in those fights there's an additional complexity coming from opponent's reactions and anticipations and from the fact that you need to protect yourself.
The complexity of the 2 cases is incomparable.Both are bad combos I'd never use, but I'd say the Snipe->Snipe is far harder to land than the Ambush->Fear(good player will instantly CC break+dodge roll here)->LA+SA+Bash.
'Bad combos':)
You can't dodge roll right after break free:) Break free starts a 1 sec gcd on everything. You can't dodgeroll during that 1 sec (nor block). What you described works only in ~10% of cases if the target just randomly happened to press the bash/interrupt/break free button when you fear. That's why 'some players' always fear before incap. Even if the target notices ambush - incap will land.You can read above on the bow wombo combo in this patch - not easy to land at all.
This exploit is still much easier to perform than the combo above.Your combo deals far less damage than the bow combo.
Snipe is 30-40% higher than sa.
2xsnipes = 2.8xSA. Let's say 3xSA to accommodate from higher wpd in stealth.
LA is ~40% of SA. Bash is ~40% of LA.
LA+SA+Bash ~= 1.56xSA.
Next LA+SA+Bash is about 1.65x(original SA) because of major breach from the first SA.
So totally we get about 3.15xSA.
So these 2 attacks are roughly the same. In bow focused build snipes will hit harder though.(Cloak->)Heavy Attack+SA->Incap with Selene proc deals around the same damage as the bow combo though, and based on my testing on the PTS is still easier to land than the bow combo.
We're comparing to 2xsnipes. And please don't try to make a thing out of a clear exploit. "Bow combo', sheesh.No amount of personal skill will land you any cast time ability against even a single semi-decent player using your addon, I can promise you that.
I can promise you a totally opposite thing.Now imagine fighting multiple people using your addon and relying on that Lethal Arrow to land so you can get enemy numbers down & cloak+relocate before they overwhelm you.
You don't 'fight multiple people' using snipes. Unless you're exploiting snipes from stealth and those people are bad enough to not to have a clue about what's going on.A cast time build requires far more positioning & situational awareness than other builds.
This is demonstratively wrong. See above about what stealth build shouldn't care about compared a non-stealth build.You position wrong and people won't run into your traps, people will interrupt your cast times & they'll quite simply just kill you if you play a bow build (Marksman+Morag Tong=not much healing).
If you position wrong or a non-stealth build - you'll just die. Plain and simple.Most builds can just hold block/dodge to survive with heals, or shield up. Not "gank" builds.
Gank builds can easily afford running a vigor. The only real difference always was max hp. Not the amount of dodges.Timing also needs to precise on cast time builds running Volcanic Rune or fear trap - it can be the difference between winning/losing.
And again, on a non-stealth build any mistake is 'winning/losing'. Ganking is much more forgiving, especially bow ganking.
Edited by Dorrino on October 26, 2017 9:12PM1 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alaztor91 wrote: »
It seems that you try to use your own subjective view of this specific interaction of skill and mechanic to justify why channels from stealth is an ''exploit'' and why your addon provides more ''counterplay''.
This might happen, but your statement definitely needs a justification that hopefully will follow.
You want me to justify why I think that channels from stealth are not an exploit?
Well, whatever my opinion is on the subject is also subjective and might not represent how ZOS views this, however I'm inclined to believe that since you can actually do it in the game and ZOS has never mentioned that it's not intended or an oversight, it's probably how it's supposed to work.
I might be wrong and maybe it's an unintended interaction of skill/mechanics, but since I don't work at ZOS I have no way to know for sure.
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Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Alaztor91 wrote: »
It seems that you try to use your own subjective view of this specific interaction of skill and mechanic to justify why channels from stealth is an ''exploit'' and why your addon provides more ''counterplay''.
This might happen, but your statement definitely needs a justification that hopefully will follow.
You want me to justify why I think that channels from stealth are not an exploit?
Well, whatever my opinion is on the subject is also subjective and might not represent how ZOS views this, however I'm inclined to believe that since you can actually do it in the game and ZOS has never mentioned that it's not intended or an oversight, it's probably how it's supposed to work.
I might be wrong and maybe it's an unintended interaction of skill/mechanics, but since I don't work at ZOS I have no way to know for sure.
I'm waiting for you to justify why my opinion on the subject is subjective, i.e. based of irrational preference instead of a set of rational claims.2 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because you didn't designed the stealth mechanic, skills with cast time or the game. Whatever drawbacks or cons you think that channeled skills should have or not doesn't matter IF ZOS design choice intends for stealth to bypass all that.Edited by Alaztor91 on October 26, 2017 9:23PM1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Because you didn't designed the stealth mechanic, skills with cast time or the game. Whatever drawbacks on cons you think that channeled skills should have or not doesn't matter if ZOS design choice intends for stealth to bypass all that.
I partially agree with this. I assume any game tries to be consistent and even if ZOS confirms this interaction to be intended there will be questions about validity of this intention.
Right now i base my argument on the lack of any explicit information about this interaction.
If we get a confirmation - then i'll retract a half of my claims.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With the 50+ EP on EU Sotha Sil tonight sound was completely gone for extended periods. Luckily it didn’t matter because getting zerged or sniped makes no difference. But it shows again how great sound cues are. Totally. Like always.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What the actual f***. Is Dorrino really trying to shift the discussion towards 'masking channel by stealth is exploit'? ZoS literally decides what does and what does not take you out of stealth. The only exploit happening is you using API calls to send notifications no matter the intended design of these skills.
Jeez. He is going crazy the more his addon is in spotlight.Edited by SodanTok on October 26, 2017 10:20PM10 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What the actual f***. Is Dorrino really trying to shift the discussion towards 'masking channel by stealth is exploit'? ZoS literally decides what does and what does not take you out of stealth. The only exploit happening is you using API calls to send notifications no matter the intended design of these skills.
Jeez. He is going crazy the more his addon is in spotlight.
Sounds like he is saying that . Unless I've read it wrong he is saying anyone using stealth to cast A channeled ability is exploiting .7 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't care about convincing ZOS about anything. ZOS refuse to fix bugs for years and to have any kind of dialog with the community. Who's there to convince?
Then im really curious why you are in this thread at all. What benefit is there typing out hours worth of justification for your views if you arent trying to convince zos? Are you trying to convince the community? I dont think we can exact change either even if 100% people agreed that gank builds are an exploit.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »What the actual f***. Is Dorrino really trying to shift the discussion towards 'masking channel by stealth is exploit'? ZoS literally decides what does and what does not take you out of stealth. The only exploit happening is you using API calls to send notifications no matter the intended design of these skills.
Jeez. He is going crazy the more his addon is in spotlight.
Sounds like he is saying that . Unless I've read it wrong he is saying anyone using stealth to cast A channeled ability is exploiting .
Very confusing. On one hand using addon to get advantage impossible to acquire in any other way than through his addon (or some other if happens there be some) is not exploiting apparently. But on the other hand using ingame mechanic existing since forever is exploiting because ZoS did not send him personal memo that the mechanic they designed and let in the game for nearly 4 years is indeed intended.Edited by SodanTok on October 26, 2017 10:56PM6 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »What the actual f***. Is Dorrino really trying to shift the discussion towards 'masking channel by stealth is exploit'? ZoS literally decides what does and what does not take you out of stealth. The only exploit happening is you using API calls to send notifications no matter the intended design of these skills.
Jeez. He is going crazy the more his addon is in spotlight.
Sounds like he is saying that . Unless I've read it wrong he is saying anyone using stealth to cast A channeled ability is exploiting .
Very confusing. On one hand using addon to get advantage impossible to acquire in any other way than through his addon (or some other if happens there be some) is not exploiting apparently. But on the other hand using ingame mechanic existing since forever is exploiting because ZoS did not send him personal memo that the mechanic they designed and let in the game for nearly 4 years is indeed intended.
For me it is interesting to read all these different points of view . For some believe the addon is a Defence from bad mechanics that could possibly be exploited further and to others the addon is the only exploit as it bypasses game design . This is why I don't argue because everyone has found a way to make what they believe a truth .1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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By first claim I assume you mean me saying they made stealth mechanic take precedence over channel animations - for that you only need to log in to see how things work.
"for a reason" part is conjecture.
...and the point of this unnecessary comment is...? Are you just not-so-subtly telling me everything I write is being ignored?If we're to talk about something as biased as "skill", then you'd do well to consider that if such a "low skill level build" was able to perform efficiently, we'd see a lot more 1v1/1vX videos & streams with these cast time builds and they'd be part of the meta - which they are not.
We had all of that a plenty before crit damage from stealth nerf (including the whole lifespan of my addon).
Bow builds? No. What we had were melee builds with proc sets (using instant cast skills & heavy attacks)- not cast time builds.
Please provide proof (preferably video/stream links) if you think I'm wrong.
Here's some more "low effort playstyles" (highly subjective): shieldstacking sorcs, magplar (both light/heavy versions), S&B magicka DK (well, I guess this fits into "hold block & hit buttons" category).
But to answer your question: yes, the more "low effort playstyle" alternatives , the better PvP we have thanks to increased build diversity (which is close to 0 atm)."Ganking" successfully on the other hand requires a lot of skill and most bow users (and melee "gankers") I come across are more like walking AP piñatas.
This level skill is incomparable with non-ganking (and as if you wish, non-blocking) playstyles. And, unlike channels from stealth, block builds don't try to exploit any game mechanics.block builds don't try to exploit any game mechanics.
Sorry, I'm trying to hold my laughter here. I guess you haven't met any of the unkillable permablockers?
I don't want to name&shame here, but quick youtube search will give you dozens of videos of players tanking 10-20 people without health bar dropping below 80%.For the record, canceling your Snipe doesn't really do anything (doesn't even save stamina since you lose regen tick by blocking) because the dodge roll will make the second one miss as well (it's enough to dodge roll during cast animation for a skill to miss).
Also, your opponent can simply wait until the arrow is in the air before dodging - there's no hurry (especially when they see exactly when it'd begin traveling towards you with your addon).
He won't be able to wait it out in 1vx. Again i don't consider 1v1 as being irrelevant to the addon.
The only relevance would be a ganker trying to kill the target without any defense from the said target.
Then i'd argue that the addon does an awesome service to the pvp community by making a non-skill unfair play harder.
You need to stop treating builds you don't like as 2nd class citizens. They have every right to 1v1/1vX as well - not having that ability makes people only zerg with the said builds & prevents them from ever becoming part of the meta and increasing build diversity in PvP.
Cool, as I stated before "skill" is very subjective and we all see it differently.Try getting a Cloak->Snipe+Asylum Acid Spray off against a stam DK spamming volatile armor at you. We'll see how that goes
So you can shoot snipe before the spray and still get the benefit from the later (because it will still land first)?
Good to know. This clearly is an exploit of the asylum bow effect design and needs to be reported. Thank you for this.
Well, it's actually just clever use of game mechanics as well. You see, if my Acid Spray lands before a Lethal Arrow it applies the debuff for +50% damage which then gets consumed by the Lethal Arrow.
Helps to know how travel times function.The Asylum Bow "Shotgun Combo" as I call it requires you to be exactly between 10-20m from your opponent for it to work - too close & Acid Spray lands before Snipe, too far away & target won't be in Acid Spray range (or can hear/see the projectile & dodge in time). Not easy. Feel free to try before judging.
Compared to any actual interaction between you and a good opponent this difficulty is negligible.
If by "actual interaction" you mean back&forth exchange of damage between two players, that's exactly what a bow build is not supposed to do
A bow build kites the target, discourages gap closers with traps & tries to control the battleground. The whole idea is avoiding that interaction with your opponent and then delivering an opportune killer combo.
It's quite fun really.As for sneak specifically, that also requires perfect rotation & positioning and the burst isn't undetectable even then as there is the sound/visual cue.
All that (while indeed might requiring some practice) is required for non gank fights as well. But in those fights there's an additional complexity coming from opponent's reactions and anticipations and from the fact that you need to protect yourself.
The complexity of the 2 cases is incomparable.
Of course, because the 2 cases are incomparable due to vast playstyle differences.Both are bad combos I'd never use, but I'd say the Snipe->Snipe is far harder to land than the Ambush->Fear(good player will instantly CC break+dodge roll here)->LA+SA+Bash.
'Bad combos':)
You can't dodge roll right after break free:) Break free starts a 1 sec gcd on everything. You can't dodgeroll during that 1 sec (nor block). What you described works only in ~10% of cases if the target just randomly happened to press the bash/interrupt/break free button when you fear. That's why 'some players' always fear before incap. Even if the target notices ambush - incap will land.
You absolutely can dodge roll (and block) after a CC break, GCD only applies to skills (which is the reason you can for example dodge/block cancel them).
I almost never get hit by Incap (or other skills) after Fear and I know several other players who can react & avoid hits after CC. Likely a combination of good latency & (not to brag) reaction time.
It's actually the reason I dropped Mass Hysteria entirely on my melee stamblade - you build around top players & against top players that skill is just a stamina drain that deals no dmg.
Well, atleast test the "exploit" before judging
Since I'm a big fan of numbers, let's take a look.
Comparing my bow build to my melee build (both low sustain focused on maximizing damage):
Snipe 19 423 (23 609 with 5 Hawk Eye stacks)
Surprise Attack 13 440
36.41% difference, 54.89% with 5 Hawk Eye stacks (impossible if "ganking")2xsnipes = 2.8xSA. Let's say 3xSA to accommodate from higher wpd in stealth.
A Snipe->Snipe only kills bad players, because even if the first one lands opponent has over a second to react before the 2nd one. So you can forget about that.
Snipe->Ambush+SA/Incap was the strongest snipe oriented combo before this patch and the strongest combo for bow alone was Snipe->Heavy Attack+PI.
Bash 3475LA is ~40% of SA. Bash is ~40% of LA.
Light Attack 4123
Surprise Attack 13 440
LA is 30.67% of Surprise Attack (for DW, varies depending on weapon).
Bash is 84.28% of Light Attack.LA+SA+Bash ~= 1.56xSA.
Next LA+SA+Bash is about 1.65x(original SA) because of major breach from the first SA.
So totally we get about 3.15xSA.
So these 2 attacks are roughly the same. In bow focused build snipes will hit harder though.
You have a funny way of counting.
Let's do it properly with actual math.
Lethal Arrow->Lethal Arrow (let's assume they're cast from max range, so no light attacks inbetween)
19 423+19 423=38 846
Light Attack+Surprise Attack+Bash+Light Attack+Surprise Attack+Bash
4123+13 440+3753(adjusted for Major Fracture)+4453+14 515+3753=44 037
Alright, that's more damage than Snipe->Snipe.
But let's compare some proper combos that actually land at the same second (what you described isn't a combo, it's two weave rotations):
Lethal Arrow->Asylum Acid Spray
8545+1347 (DoT tick)+31 077=49 969->24 984 (Battle Spirit)
Lethal Arrow->Asylum Acid Spray (with 5 Hawk Eye stacks)
10 388+1637 (DoT tick)+43 818=55 843->27 921 (Battle Spirit)
Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stuns from cloak because it has faster animation and lands first, I guess it's an "exploit" too lul)->Incap+Selene
14 233+13 440+21 156+12 000=60 829->30 414 (Battle Spirit)
Now, that's missing a lot of factors such as crit & target's mitigation/crit resistance, but since those vary too much it'd be hard to make an accurate assessment.(Cloak->)Heavy Attack+SA->Incap with Selene proc deals around the same damage as the bow combo though, and based on my testing on the PTS is still easier to land than the bow combo.
We're comparing to 2xsnipes. And please don't try to make a thing out of a clear exploit. "Bow combo', sheesh.
Clever use of projectile travel times, not an exploit
Feel free to try, I'll log on PTS & you snipe until your fingers go numb.Now imagine fighting multiple people using your addon and relying on that Lethal Arrow to land so you can get enemy numbers down & cloak+relocate before they overwhelm you.
You don't 'fight multiple people' using snipes. Unless you're exploiting snipes from stealth and those people are bad enough to not to have a clue about what's going on.
...so what gives people spamming Surprise Attack weaves the "right" to fight multiple people, but not bow builds? Curious.
Cast time builds aren't 2nd class citizens.
All I see is someone who probably hasn't really played a stealth build to understand them.
No, no you don't.
A sorc can spam shields & survive for a while, streak away.
A heavy armor build can take hits & outheal them while dealing damage to targets.
A medium build can hope there's not too much undodgeable damage and try to outheal while dodging what it can dodge.
A stealth build (e.g. a bow build) with no 5-sets that would boost healing or provide survivability using a weapon with less weapon damage than 2H, DW or even S&B in order to maximize damage from stealth melts if they get pinned down.
A build utilizing a cast time ability in fact can't even deal damage while pinned down and needs to try & create distance in order to not only survive but also to have a chance at killing your opponent.
Positioning is far more important on a stealth build.
Bow Build
13 877/5 seconds (1387/second on average in PvP not counting crits/debuffs)
Full Damage Melee Build
16 488/5 seconds (1648/second on average in PvP not counting crits/debuffs)
Yes, you can run Vigor on bow "gank" build - but it'll heal for much, much less and won't outheal enough damage.
Also, maximum health has very little to do with anything - it is always possible (and wise) to calculate the exact amount of maximum health/mitigation you need to survive any possible burst.
What matters is being able to outheal the steady incoming, most likely undodgeable damage from the meta builds.
This is something "gank builds" simply cannot do.
Why don't you actually try it before talking?
You're talking to the person who practically pioneered "bow ganking" in this game - it is many things, but "forgiving" is not one of them (see above).Edited by DDuke on October 26, 2017 11:58PM2 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Miat, Legendary Mage, DDuke
Triple threat, no count out, no holds barred, falls count anywhere match on Monday Night RAW. Winner become heavyweight addon champion.
Special guest refereePaul Sage!3 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭
I don't care about convincing ZOS about anything. ZOS refuse to fix bugs for years and to have any kind of dialog with the community. Who's there to convince?
Then im really curious why you are in this thread at all. What benefit is there typing out hours worth of justification for your views if you arent trying to convince zos? Are you trying to convince the community? I dont think we can exact change either even if 100% people agreed that gank builds are an exploit.
Do you need me to think exactly as you do? Do you need ZOS to think this way? All other people?
Well, i don't.
I participate in this discussion, because i find it interesting.
I'm not coming here to persuade you, ZOS, people of the earth or anything at all.
I find this discussion interesting, because to me it's obvious that channels from stealth exploit game mechanics and provide an unfair advantage. It's obvious to me that the addon levels the playfield and tremendously helps the fair play. Etc, etc.
This thing is, it's not obvious for quite a bit of people who aren't me.
I'm here to understand why exactly something that is obvious for me, is not obvious for other people.
That's the only reason for my participation in this discussion.
It's hard for me to care less about the 'future of the addon'. The addon is there for you, guys. I see that some of you have problems with it. And i'm spending my time to try to really understand what you guys are, to have such a different opinion on it.By first claim I assume you mean me saying they made stealth mechanic take precedence over channel animations - for that you only need to log in to see how things work.
To see that my addon provides its features by design you just need to log in with the addon and see how things work."for a reason" part is conjecture.
And nevertheless i'm curious what that reason could be....and the point of this unnecessary comment is...? Are you just not-so-subtly telling me everything I write is being ignored?
You mentioned reason. I answered that i'd be able to counter the reason why this interaction between stealth and channels is intended as soon as i hear this reason.Bow builds? No. What we had were melee builds with proc sets (using instant cast skills & heavy attacks)- not cast time builds.
Please provide proof (preferably video/stream links) if you think I'm wrong.
Video proofs of people ganking with bow?
https://youtube.com/results?search_query=eso+bow+gankHere's some more "low effort playstyles" (highly subjective): shieldstacking sorcs, magplar (both light/heavy versions), S&B magicka DK (well, I guess this fits into "hold block & hit buttons" category).
But to answer your question: yes, the more "low effort playstyle" alternatives , the better PvP we have thanks to increased build diversity (which is close to 0 atm).
Understood. I disagree adding more low effort builds, but this might be the game's direction.Sorry, I'm trying to hold my laughter here. I guess you haven't met any of the unkillable permablockers?
I don't want to name&shame here, but quick youtube search will give you dozens of videos of players tanking 10-20 people without health bar dropping below 80%.
Which is intended unless you can demonstrate that it's not. They are using normal block mechanics. Do you have any information that they are exploiting it in some way?You need to stop treating builds you don't like as 2nd class citizens. They have every right to 1v1/1vX as well - not having that ability makes people only zerg with the said builds & prevents them from ever becoming part of the meta and increasing build diversity in PvP.
I fully disagree and will continue to treat low effort builds as '2nd class citizens' at best. They have a right to 1v1/1vX, but bow builds specifically don't work there, unless by exploiting channels from stealth.Well, it's actually just clever use of game mechanics as well. You see, if my Acid Spray lands before a Lethal Arrow it applies the debuff for +50% damage which then gets consumed by the Lethal Arrow.
Helps to know how travel times function.
*sighs* I understood how this exploit work. Before your message i didn't know about it. You told me about it and now i reported it already.If by "actual interaction" you mean back&forth exchange of damage between two players, that's exactly what a bow build is not supposed to do
So you're aware you consider a build that is designed to kill people without retaliation. And that's beneficial for pvp.
Understood.It's quite fun really.
I don't find it fun. It might be a skillful play if not using exploits, but it's not our case.
One of the key features of ESO pvp always was that you couldn't kite people at all, because snare/root immunity on demand.
A clever build to overcome this feature is awesome, a build that is based on 2 exploits is not.
Quite simple here.You absolutely can dodge roll (and block) after a CC break, GCD only applies to skills (which is the reason you can for example dodge/block cancel them).
You're absolutely cannot dodge roll (and block) right after a CC break.
The game has 3-4 different cooldowns in place.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4142819/#Comment_4142819I almost never get hit by Incap (or other skills) after Fear and I know several other players who can react & avoid hits after CC. Likely a combination of good latency & (not to brag) reaction time.
No way to test with you, so i'll discard your brag as false.Well, atleast test the "exploit" before judging
I tested the exploit. Had to have grounds for the report. Reported. Judging.A Snipe->Snipe only kills bad players, because even if the first one lands opponent has over a second to react before the 2nd one. So you can forget about that.
I'm not talking about what kills players. I'm talking about relative ease for different damage.
Only in gankers world, there's a magic combo that kills people.
Against good people no magic combo reliably works.for DW, varies depending on weapon
Used GS as an example.
Your case agrees with my evaluation.Alright, that's more damage than Snipe->Snipe.
Your case agrees with my evaluation:)Lethal Arrow->Asylum Acid Spray
Lethal Arrow->Asylum Acid Spray (with 5 Hawk Eye stacks)
Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stuns from cloak because it has faster animation and lands first, I guess it's an "exploit" too lul)->Incap+Selene
Let's not compare exploits with each other and call them combos please.Clever use of projectile travel times, not an exploit
Do you sincerely think ZOS decided that snipe needs +50% dmg from stealth?
It is an exploit of Asylum Bow specifically. That only works on nightblade (not the damage part, the hiding of the channel).
And we do have a totally different understanding of the word 'clever'.Feel free to try, I'll log on PTS & you snipe until your fingers go numb.
You will dodge each snipe out of 100? Without stealth? Why do you need to use obviously wrong claims?:(...so what gives people spamming Surprise Attack weaves the "right" to fight multiple people, but not bow builds? Curious.
Cast time builds aren't 2nd class citizens.
*sighs* what gives you the right to talk about rights?
Bow builds without exploits don't work in 1vX (and hardly work in 1v1). But if you think they don't have a right to work (yep, that magic right) then sure.All I see is someone who probably hasn't really played a stealth build to understand them.
This is totally obvious you can never understand a stealth build without playing one. Hard things are hard:(No, no you don't.
A sorc can spam shields & survive for a while, streak away.
etc
A 'wrong place' was meant to be a 'really wrong place', not 'kinda not too good place'.Positioning is far more important on a stealth build.
If by a 'stealth build' we mean 'a ganker who can't fight otherwise' then yep.Yes, you can run Vigor on bow "gank" build - but it'll heal for much, much less and won't outheal enough damage.
Basically you make a build that is not designed to fight anybody (meaning take damage), load it up with max dps possible, realize that this build can't work unless undetected and start bashing my addon?:)
What if (i don't know, what if) this build just relies on an exploit and is otherwise a nonfunctional build that makes pvp more unfair and generally 'worse' for everybody?Why don't you actually try it before talking?
Will i find out how hard ganking is?:)You're talking to the person who practically pioneered "bow ganking" in this game - it is many things, but "forgiving" is not one of them (see above).
We do have a really different understanding of difficulty in this game.Edited by Dorrino on October 27, 2017 5:46AM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, consistency for one: skills do not break stealth until they actually deal damage to opponent or apply an effect on you (e.g. Vigor, which was changed to break cloak a year ago).
It also makes the game less clunky and losing stealth every time you start casting a skill and have to cancel because you see a zerg arrive from behind the corner would be pretty bad...Bow builds? No. What we had were melee builds with proc sets (using instant cast skills & heavy attacks)- not cast time builds.
Please provide proof (preferably video/stream links) if you think I'm wrong.
Video proofs of people ganking with bow?
https://youtube.com/results?search_query=eso+bow+gank
I guess you forgot the 1v1/1vX part.
Besides some of Baker's vids (who plays on console), those are all "gank one guy with a reaction time of a rock and run away" videos.Sorry, I'm trying to hold my laughter here. I guess you haven't met any of the unkillable permablockers?
I don't want to name&shame here, but quick youtube search will give you dozens of videos of players tanking 10-20 people without health bar dropping below 80%.
Which is intended unless you can demonstrate that it's not. They are using normal block mechanics. Do you have any information that they are exploiting it in some way?
Just like people are using normal stealth mechanics. I guess you missed the point.You need to stop treating builds you don't like as 2nd class citizens. They have every right to 1v1/1vX as well - not having that ability makes people only zerg with the said builds & prevents them from ever becoming part of the meta and increasing build diversity in PvP.
I fully disagree and will continue to treat low effort builds as '2nd class citizens' at best. They have a right to 1v1/1vX, but bow builds specifically don't work there, unless by exploiting channels from stealth.
...and here comes the bias. Will be applied to everything you say from here on.Well, it's actually just clever use of game mechanics as well. You see, if my Acid Spray lands before a Lethal Arrow it applies the debuff for +50% damage which then gets consumed by the Lethal Arrow.
Helps to know how travel times function.
*sighs* I understood how this exploit work. Before your message i didn't know about it. You told me about it and now i reported it already.
Cool, let's hope they change skill travel times now as well, because you don't like them
/sIf by "actual interaction" you mean back&forth exchange of damage between two players, that's exactly what a bow build is not supposed to do
So you're aware you consider a build that is designed to kill people without retaliation. And that's beneficial for pvp.
Understood.It's quite fun really.
I don't find it fun. It might be a skillful play if not using exploits, but it's not our case.
One of the key features of ESO pvp always was that you couldn't kite people at all, because snare/root immunity on demand.
A clever build to overcome this feature is awesome, a build that is based on 2 exploits is not.
Quite simple here.
Keywords highlighted.
You can't label everything you dislike and weren't smart enough to figure out yourself as either "unskillful play" or an "exploit" - world doesn't work that way.You absolutely can dodge roll (and block) after a CC break, GCD only applies to skills (which is the reason you can for example dodge/block cancel them).
You're absolutely cannot dodge roll (and block) right after a CC break.
The game has 3-4 different cooldowns in place.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4142819/#Comment_4142819
...and that is bull[snip] I'm sorry to say.
Sigh, I guess I have to create another video to prove you wrong. What is this, video number 6 or 7?
You don't need to, I largely record my gameplay you can watch my videos & count the Fear->Incaps/whatever that land.
The average human reaction speed is 0,283 seconds, if your latency is less than 717ms you should be able to CC break & dodge roll in time.
This isn't the average reaction speed for most people in ESO though, which really puzzles me. More research required.
Cool.
Maybe you could report Meteor combos next? I mean, that skill is balanced by having a huge telegraph to it, but people cast undodgeable/blockable CC before it lands to prevent reacting! How rude, and clearly a cheat/exploit
/sA Snipe->Snipe only kills bad players, because even if the first one lands opponent has over a second to react before the 2nd one. So you can forget about that.
I'm not talking about what kills players. I'm talking about relative ease for different damage.
Only in gankers world, there's a magic combo that kills people.
Against good people no magic combo reliably works.
Nobody said a combo has to reliably work. But if you play a cast time build your entire build hinges on it landing.
There's no "sustained damage" cast time builds, they're all about that burst ganker or not.
That said, there are reliable combos as well that kill most non-tank targets.
Pets+Curse+Soul Assault+Wrath
Unstable Core+Purifying Light+Solar Barrage+Soul Assault
Curse->Wrath->Meteor->Frag->Rune Cage
DoTs->Skoria proc->Leap
About a dozen different Warden combos with Shalks
etc
Very roughly (and Bash dmg is way off). The point wasn't to prove you wrong though, the point was to stress the importance of accuracy with numbers.
If a teacher asks you what's 200+98, you don't answer "around three hundreds".
Lethal Arrow->Asylum Acid Spray
Lethal Arrow->Asylum Acid Spray (with 5 Hawk Eye stacks)
Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stuns from cloak because it has faster animation and lands first, I guess it's an "exploit" too lul)->Incap+Selene
Let's not compare exploits with each other and call them combos please.
Lol.Clever use of projectile travel times, not an exploit
Do you sincerely think ZOS decided that snipe need +50% from stealth?
It is an exploit of Asylum Bow specifically. That only works on nightblade (not the damage part, the hiding of the channel).
And we do have a totally different understanding of the word 'clever'.
I wouldn't know.
It's hard to land properly and doesn't deal more damage than existing melee combos, so I don't see why not.
Hey, less cheesy than playing stam sorc, hitting someone with Asylum Acid Spray, then Empower->Meteor->Lethal Arrow+Rune Cage
Only 100?
With your addon, I could keep dodging/cloaking them all until I fall asleep....so what gives people spamming Surprise Attack weaves the "right" to fight multiple people, but not bow builds? Curious.
Cast time builds aren't 2nd class citizens.
*sighs* what gives you the right to talk about rights?
Bow builds without exploits don't work in 1vX (and hardly work in 1v1). But if you think they don't have a right to work (yep, that magic right) then sure.
You say it yourself, they dont work in 1vX & they hardly work in 1v1 (well, might be different with a proper asylum build & your cheats gone), yet that's somehow a good thing in your mind?
Naturally it helps to have perspective when discussing things - otherwise all you're left with is bias.No, no you don't.
A sorc can spam shields & survive for a while, streak away.
etc
A 'wrong place' was meant to be a 'really wrong place', not 'kinda not too good place'.Positioning is far more important on a stealth build.
If by a 'stealth build' we mean 'a ganker who can't fight otherwise' then yep.
Good, so can we stop about "unskillful" builds then?Yes, you can run Vigor on bow "gank" build - but it'll heal for much, much less and won't outheal enough damage.
Basically you make a build that is not designed to fight anybody (meaning take damage), load it up with max dps possible, realize that this build can't work unless undetected and start bashing my addon?:)
What if (i don't know, what if) this build just relies on an exploit and is otherwise a nonfunctional build that makes pvp more unfair and generally 'worse' for everybody?
Elaborate "worse for everybody".
Is a bow build being able to deal the same burst melee builds deal (with perfect positioning exactly 10-20m from target) somehow a bad thing?
If this burst isn't viable, those same people will just keep playing the tired old melee builds - or simply quit the game if they're too tired of the tired old melee builds.
Why can't you see this?
Oh, most certainly.
Likely scenario: you'll kill a few squishies with 7 divines light armor and think how disgusting gankers are, but then you run into a tanky stam/magicka dk whom you only tickle with the burst, who then proceeds to kindly escort you to the nearest wayshrine with undodgeable bull[snip] while you flail helplessly.
At this moment a thought occurs to you: maybe ganking isn't that easy after all.
It's just bias. I try to have as little of it as possible while you revel in it.
Consider which approach is more constructive.Edited by DDuke on October 27, 2017 12:07PM1 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pointless to argue with people who can't accept results they don't like.
@idk you can go ask 150 randomly selected people in game & I can guarantee you that you'll get the same result +-8%. Nobody cares enough to brigade polls like these. It is a public poll, so you can see a bunch of bots didn't vote in it.
So no, it's not "fake news".
Conversation over.
If it matters, I've talked Bout this in my console guild and everyone has expressed their feelings of PC add-ons like this one...being poor sportsmanship and cheese basically.
Asking a PVP guild is pretty much the best audience right2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »Dorrino vs Dduke
10:0
Is that the count on stupid comments? You should give yourself a point too
5 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭ITT: too many quotesThey nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Pointless to argue with people who can't accept results they don't like.
@idk you can go ask 150 randomly selected people in game & I can guarantee you that you'll get the same result +-8%. Nobody cares enough to brigade polls like these. It is a public poll, so you can see a bunch of bots didn't vote in it.
So no, it's not "fake news".
Conversation over.
If it matters, I've talked Bout this in my console guild and everyone has expressed their feelings of PC add-ons like this one...being poor sportsmanship and cheese basically.
Asking a PVP guild is pretty much the best audience right
I can agree a great many dislike Miats and consider it cheese. Some may consider it cheating though the official word from Zos is it is not.
However, people have differing opinions and regardless of what they may be, even when false or fake information is applied here, we should all respect others opinions. Even when Duke applied incorrect information I did not harp on it for days, as an example.
That is really not occurring by all in this thread, which is not to uncommon in game forums.0
This discussion has been closed.