I main a templar in heavy in pvp, so before you rage i must tell you this.
I'm really fine with wrath removal from heavy. It was not in its role, and will never be.
But damage is still kinda high if you think about it, did they buff it's survaivability on recources, or just swap the passives?
Judas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »Wrath: This passive ability has been replaced with the Revitalize passive, which increases the resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 12/25%.
Rapid Mending: This passive ability no longer increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore, as that effect has been moved to the new Revitalize passive. It continues to increase your healing received by 4/8%.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Does it?
Wrath removal not only guts offense, but also the strength of their heals.
Consitution was nerfed so they can't sustain as easily without sacrificing something (e.g. dmg glyphs for regen on jewls which means again, lower heals).
And don't forget the shuffle lockout. Not only the evasion buff (but to be honest, with so much unblockable stuff already evasion hardly mattered), but primarily it forces HA to either have a hard time to line of sight or loose a burst heal.
And now tell me where the survivability comes from? Permablocking? That's a problem of how block costs are calculated. Heavy armor passives have no cost decrease in it. All you could say about it is that constitution (which is nerfed, just like BR) or the strong damage sets synergyze better with it.
But that's it. If permablocking is the problem, change that, not heavy armor.
If 1.2k dmg bonus from sets is the problem, change them, not heavy armor.
However, HA was already no choice for PvE DD, besides some niche hybrid builds. But these hardly matter.
I hope you know what these changes will bring. In PvP people chose HA over MA because medium sucks, and it will still suck after the patch. All these changes bring is to force even more HA user, who weren't permablocking or wearing 7th + fury before, to do exactly that. Just to compensate for survivability, dmg and heals lost. And it will just be the same issue as before. GG ZOS. GG to all who thinks this solves anything.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Does it?
Wrath removal not only guts offense, but also the strength of their heals.
Consitution was nerfed so they can't sustain as easily without sacrificing something (e.g. dmg glyphs for regen on jewls which means again, lower heals).
And don't forget the shuffle lockout. Not only the evasion buff (but to be honest, with so much unblockable stuff already evasion hardly mattered), but primarily it forces HA to either have a hard time to line of sight or loose a burst heal.
And now tell me where the survivability comes from? Permablocking? That's a problem of how block costs are calculated. Heavy armor passives have no cost decrease in it. All you could say about it is that constitution (which is nerfed, just like BR) or the strong damage sets synergyze better with it.
But that's it. If permablocking is the problem, change that, not heavy armor.
If 1.2k dmg bonus from sets is the problem, change them, not heavy armor.
However, HA was already no choice for PvE DD, besides some niche hybrid builds. But these hardly matter.
I hope you know what these changes will bring. In PvP people chose HA over MA because medium sucks, and it will still suck after the patch. All these changes bring is to force even more HA user, who weren't permablocking or wearing 7th + fury before, to do exactly that. Just to compensate for survivability, dmg and heals lost. And it will just be the same issue as before. GG ZOS. GG to all who thinks this solves anything.
First off I did a bit of math, and vigor tooltips scale about 2:1 with weapon damage before battle spirit, so losing Wrath removes about 240 points of healing total, before factoring in crits, this hardly "guts" the self healing of a heavy build.
Secondly, let's compare the raw sustain values of constitution and Light/Medium armour.
With 5 armour pieces constitution breaks even with the recovery passives of Light/Medium at about 1350 base recovery, and remember this regen is not cut off by block and gives back both magicka and stamina. The extra regen from heavy attacks is also nothing to sneeze at.
All this means that Heavy armour is actually the king of in-combat sustain.
Survivability wise Heavy Armour offers the best base resists, as well as percentage health amplifications and healing bonuses, which provide significantly more survivability than medium or light armour on it's own.
The removal of Wrath removes about 1-2k damage from a burst combo and a miniscule amount of healing. They haven't cut the sustain or the durabillity of heavy builds, only cut down on some of the unnecessary damage they had.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Does it?
Wrath removal not only guts offense, but also the strength of their heals.
Consitution was nerfed so they can't sustain as easily without sacrificing something (e.g. dmg glyphs for regen on jewls which means again, lower heals).
And don't forget the shuffle lockout. Not only the evasion buff (but to be honest, with so much unblockable stuff already evasion hardly mattered), but primarily it forces HA to either have a hard time to line of sight or loose a burst heal.
And now tell me where the survivability comes from? Permablocking? That's a problem of how block costs are calculated. Heavy armor passives have no cost decrease in it. All you could say about it is that constitution (which is nerfed, just like BR) or the strong damage sets synergyze better with it.
But that's it. If permablocking is the problem, change that, not heavy armor.
If 1.2k dmg bonus from sets is the problem, change them, not heavy armor.
However, HA was already no choice for PvE DD, besides some niche hybrid builds. But these hardly matter.
I hope you know what these changes will bring. In PvP people chose HA over MA because medium sucks, and it will still suck after the patch. All these changes bring is to force even more HA user, who weren't permablocking or wearing 7th + fury before, to do exactly that. Just to compensate for survivability, dmg and heals lost. And it will just be the same issue as before. GG ZOS. GG to all who thinks this solves anything.
First off I did a bit of math, and vigor tooltips scale about 2:1 with weapon damage before battle spirit, so losing Wrath removes about 240 points of healing total, before factoring in crits, this hardly "guts" the self healing of a heavy build.
Secondly, let's compare the raw sustain values of constitution and Light/Medium armour.
With 5 armour pieces constitution breaks even with the recovery passives of Light/Medium at about 1350 base recovery, and remember this regen is not cut off by block and gives back both magicka and stamina. The extra regen from heavy attacks is also nothing to sneeze at.
All this means that Heavy armour is actually the king of in-combat sustain.
Survivability wise Heavy Armour offers the best base resists, as well as percentage health amplifications and healing bonuses, which provide significantly more survivability than medium or light armour on it's own.
The removal of Wrath removes about 1-2k damage from a burst combo and a miniscule amount of healing. They haven't cut the sustain or the durabillity of heavy builds, only cut down on some of the unnecessary damage they had.
Indeed, magicka heavy armor will be the one with the shortest stick. 100 spell damage, on a templar is roughly 1k more healing with BoL.
1-2k is not huge viewed from a burst combo. It is if you see that heavy armor is about sustained dmg, not burst.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Does it?
Wrath removal not only guts offense, but also the strength of their heals.
Consitution was nerfed so they can't sustain as easily without sacrificing something (e.g. dmg glyphs for regen on jewls which means again, lower heals).
And don't forget the shuffle lockout. Not only the evasion buff (but to be honest, with so much unblockable stuff already evasion hardly mattered), but primarily it forces HA to either have a hard time to line of sight or loose a burst heal.
And now tell me where the survivability comes from? Permablocking? That's a problem of how block costs are calculated. Heavy armor passives have no cost decrease in it. All you could say about it is that constitution (which is nerfed, just like BR) or the strong damage sets synergyze better with it.
But that's it. If permablocking is the problem, change that, not heavy armor.
If 1.2k dmg bonus from sets is the problem, change them, not heavy armor.
However, HA was already no choice for PvE DD, besides some niche hybrid builds. But these hardly matter.
I hope you know what these changes will bring. In PvP people chose HA over MA because medium sucks, and it will still suck after the patch. All these changes bring is to force even more HA user, who weren't permablocking or wearing 7th + fury before, to do exactly that. Just to compensate for survivability, dmg and heals lost. And it will just be the same issue as before. GG ZOS. GG to all who thinks this solves anything.
First off I did a bit of math, and vigor tooltips scale about 2:1 with weapon damage before battle spirit, so losing Wrath removes about 240 points of healing total, before factoring in crits, this hardly "guts" the self healing of a heavy build.
Secondly, let's compare the raw sustain values of constitution and Light/Medium armour.
With 5 armour pieces constitution breaks even with the recovery passives of Light/Medium at about 1350 base recovery, and remember this regen is not cut off by block and gives back both magicka and stamina. The extra regen from heavy attacks is also nothing to sneeze at.
All this means that Heavy armour is actually the king of in-combat sustain.
Survivability wise Heavy Armour offers the best base resists, as well as percentage health amplifications and healing bonuses, which provide significantly more survivability than medium or light armour on it's own.
The removal of Wrath removes about 1-2k damage from a burst combo and a miniscule amount of healing. They haven't cut the sustain or the durabillity of heavy builds, only cut down on some of the unnecessary damage they had.
Indeed, magicka heavy armor will be the one with the shortest stick. 100 spell damage, on a templar is roughly 1k more healing with BoL.
1-2k is not huge viewed from a burst combo. It is if you see that heavy armor is about sustained dmg, not burst.
Can't say I would be sad to see templars in heavy spamming breath go into the dumpster.
The thing about sustained damage in pvp is that unless you have a lot of it, to the point where you outstrip the opponents ability to heal or run away, it typically won't pick up kills.
I'm not sure on the exact numbers for what 200 weapon/spell damage equates to in terms of DPS, but you can equate it to Nirnhoned which is about a 4-5% DPS buff overall, so again, in terms of PVP pressure it isn't a huge loss.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
I wonder how long some of you have even played ESO. You know what people used the old Bracing passive (you know, the one that gave -20% block cost) for? Nothing, because holding block was a death sentence after they cut stamina regen while blocking. Builds that ran heavy in Cyrodiil usually used it exclusively for the extra passive tankiness (e.g. raid healers) and definitely *not* for blocking more. The old block cost passive was for all intents and purposes useless in PvP.
You know why people can block a lot more now? Among other reasons, the introduction of sturdy and the greatly increased potency of passives like Constitution (which make block sustainable by providing a form of resource sustain even while blocking). So no, heavy armour lost practically nothing and gained a lot when they made all those passive changes.
And last I checked the blanket sustain nerfs of morrowind also affect light and medium armour setups (in fact, light and medium got their own cost reduction passives nerfed too, just like heavy's constitution passive). In terms of CP theres certainly no difference - cost reduction from CP was widely used for both light/medium and heavy builds. So what's your point?
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
Heavy already offers 'enough' bonus healing and survivability already. Adding to that wouldn't fix the issue of it being overbearing.
Does it?
Wrath removal not only guts offense, but also the strength of their heals.
Consitution was nerfed so they can't sustain as easily without sacrificing something (e.g. dmg glyphs for regen on jewls which means again, lower heals).
And don't forget the shuffle lockout. Not only the evasion buff (but to be honest, with so much unblockable stuff already evasion hardly mattered), but primarily it forces HA to either have a hard time to line of sight or loose a burst heal.
And now tell me where the survivability comes from? Permablocking? That's a problem of how block costs are calculated. Heavy armor passives have no cost decrease in it. All you could say about it is that constitution (which is nerfed, just like BR) or the strong damage sets synergyze better with it.
But that's it. If permablocking is the problem, change that, not heavy armor.
If 1.2k dmg bonus from sets is the problem, change them, not heavy armor.
However, HA was already no choice for PvE DD, besides some niche hybrid builds. But these hardly matter.
I hope you know what these changes will bring. In PvP people chose HA over MA because medium sucks, and it will still suck after the patch. All these changes bring is to force even more HA user, who weren't permablocking or wearing 7th + fury before, to do exactly that. Just to compensate for survivability, dmg and heals lost. And it will just be the same issue as before. GG ZOS. GG to all who thinks this solves anything.
First off I did a bit of math, and vigor tooltips scale about 2:1 with weapon damage before battle spirit, so losing Wrath removes about 240 points of healing total, before factoring in crits, this hardly "guts" the self healing of a heavy build.
Secondly, let's compare the raw sustain values of constitution and Light/Medium armour.
With 5 armour pieces constitution breaks even with the recovery passives of Light/Medium at about 1350 base recovery, and remember this regen is not cut off by block and gives back both magicka and stamina. The extra regen from heavy attacks is also nothing to sneeze at.
All this means that Heavy armour is actually the king of in-combat sustain.
Survivability wise Heavy Armour offers the best base resists, as well as percentage health amplifications and healing bonuses, which provide significantly more survivability than medium or light armour on it's own.
The removal of Wrath removes about 1-2k damage from a burst combo and a miniscule amount of healing. They haven't cut the sustain or the durabillity of heavy builds, only cut down on some of the unnecessary damage they had.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »The bigger issue with the removal of Wrath is Zos already removed a passive to add Wrath yet they are not replacing wrath with anything else. This makes HA passives weaker than it has ever been since the game was released.
Not even close to the truth.
Constitution is about twice as strong. (Multiplied by ~4 with the DB update, then almost halved with morrowind)
+25% heavy attack resource restore.
More max health and healing received
No block cost reduction anymore, but now there's the sturdy trait to optimise that instead
So it's no bonus from HA anymore, which makes it weaker since you could get "sturdy" from the passives and wear another armor trait. It's like saying "templars aren't nerfed when they removed major mending because there's that buff in the resto skill line."
Also, I like how you "forgot" to include that MW was an all across resource management nerf with the removal of cost reduction CP and how they gutted the Black Rose set when you write about how constitution being so strong.
I wonder how long some of you have even played ESO. You know what people used the old Bracing passive (you know, the one that gave -20% block cost) for? Nothing, because holding block was a death sentence after they cut stamina regen while blocking. Builds that ran heavy in Cyrodiil usually used it exclusively for the extra passive tankiness (e.g. raid healers) and definitely *not* for blocking more. The old block cost passive was for all intents and purposes useless in PvP.
You know why people can block a lot more now? Among other reasons, the introduction of sturdy and the greatly increased potency of passives like Constitution (which make block sustainable by providing a form of resource sustain even while blocking). So no, heavy armour lost practically nothing and gained a lot when they made all those passive changes.
And last I checked the blanket sustain nerfs of morrowind also affect light and medium armour setups (in fact, light and medium got their own cost reduction passives nerfed too, just like heavy's constitution passive). In terms of CP theres certainly no difference - cost reduction from CP was widely used for both light/medium and heavy builds. So what's your point?
My point is? That heavy armor will be worse after the patch than in a long time.
Bracing gone. It's substitute gone. No replacement at all. Means overall less boni from passives. Constitution also halfed. (And spare me that it was buffed 1 1/2 years ago, if we compare everything only to how it was at X instead of how it is now most arguments become nonsense).
And in this arugment you shouldn't even care that blocking was a death sentence then. It sure isn't now. Actually, blocking becomes even more important for HA since they either miss a burst heal or a snare removal for fast LoS. So a return of bracing would indeed help a bit. But, and that is a big but, if they finally correct how block costs are calculated so that permablocking would become significantly harder in the first place (but then still easier on HA than on other types).
That passive was bad anyway. I only had it up when multiple people were attacking me on open field.