PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Templar

mandricus · October 2017

My feedback on Templars on their current state.

PvE:

MagPlars: we are pretty much screwed. If we build for damage, we can't sustain. If we build for sustain, we can't do enough damage. It's a short blanket.
The more important thing is that we are losing our class-defining abilities (puncturing is not sustainable anymore, jesus beam is not doing enough damage in order to gain a slot on our bar, and now also Ritual of Retribution won't be affordable anymore).
Morrowind's sustain changes completely destroyed the playstyle of the class. Magplars never recovered from sustain changes (the same exact thing happened for MagDKs). The Ritual of Retribution increased cost is just the final blow. Hey devs, you know that most of the Magplars use Ritual of Retribution in PvE for AOE Damage and not to cleanse, right? You screwed them in PvE because of PvP. As usual.

Stamplars: we are "meh". Not because the class has something unique or because it was looked into. It's just because Stamina specs are performing well in general at the moment. So, while we are not able to pull the same damage of a StamDK or a Stamblade, we don't have the survailability of a StamSorc or of a StamWarden, we can't bring anything unique that is really worth it in a raid scenario, since the Stamina specs are performing well in general, and PvE wise their skill bars are pretty much the same for all the classes, the class is still viable (incidentally).

PvP:

We don't have shields. We don't have mobility. We don't have escape mechanisms.
As a matter of facts, the way this class was designed in order to survive is to try to stand the damage relying on Healing and Cleanse.
Then Major manding was removed, hitting badly our ability to survive through heals.
And now they are increasing the cost of Cleansing ritual, making cleanse much more harder than before.
Stamplars are screwed. Magplars will have a hard time.

In General:

Rethinking the approach to sustain without rethinking the core mechanics of the class, and without reverting back some of the changes that were made to adjust our skills in the world of "infinite sustain" was a very dumb move.
It just destroyed MagPlars (exactly how it destroyed MagDKs.).
Talking in general about the class, the two pillars of the class' survival mechanics are not there anymore.
We don't have high burst healing and the ability to cleanse ourselves anymore.
So there is no point into playing a Templar anymore, except for an healer.
I don't know what the Zos combat team has against Templars, but looks like this patch they will finally reach what seems to be their hidden goal: this will be the final step of their plan to completely destroy the class both in PvE and PvP.

Personal conclusions:

I've both a Stamplar and a Magplar, all maxed out, with all the passives needed, all skills unlocked and maxed, several hundreds skill points, mages guild maxed, fighters guild maxed, vampirism, medicinal use, etc. etc.
There is no point into spending so much time into properly building a character (if you want to have everything maxed you need to invest an insane amount of time) just to watch them being smashed again and again, and falling into pieces patch after patch.
It's not fun. It's not worth the time. Moreover, it's pointless.
(As a side note: the same happened in the last patch to all the folks that have a MagDK. They just disappeared from PvE raids and dungeons, as well from PvP. I feel you, fellas).

At this point in time, I think I have just three options: restart from scratch with another toon (not a chance), change my approach to the game, quit the game.

As i'm, despite everything, still in love with this game, I don't think I'll quit for now.
So I will just forget about PVE raiding, and forget about PvP. Forget about wasting time into farming dungeons countless times in order to gain useless gear that I can't use on my toons, because someone is just having fun into slowly destroying them, patch after patch.

I'll just unsub my Eso Plus, join the casuals and start playing ESO as a single player game.

This is what most of the casuals are doing. In the end, most of them don't have a clue about what's going on in the MMO space of this game. They just enjoy the quests, enjoy the open world, playing with a Two-Hand sword and a Bow on a Magicka toon, and they still think this is "Skyrim online".

In the end, they are much happier than me while playing this game, as they are more relaxed and they are having fun.
I think I'll join them, and let you know how it feels.

Minno · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

The base cost increase to Cleansing Ritual is a very lazy change. I totally understand why they think it needs adjusted - the skill is VERY strong.

Increasing base cost is just a kick in the nuts to Stamplars, most of whom can only cast it 3 times consecutively already while it is only a very minor nerf to magplar.

Why not instead REDUCE the base cost as compared to live and give it the 4-second cost scaling penalty (edit: like Streak, Dodge roll). THAT is how you promote strategic use.

While you're at it, do the same for Cloak and Reflective Scale. Warden doesn't really have a signature move like the 4 vanilla classes but Wardens need a few gentle survivability nerfs too IMO.

I disagree on a scaling mechanic for purge.

There are tons of debuffs forcing Templars to use purge strategically on live. Forcing extra resorce drain to limit the number of consistent casts would mean stamplars would still only be able to purge 2-3 times in a row, but now further punish Templars.

You will see, it would get to the point where it would be better to build heavily into AOE/debuff defenses than it would be to cast a 3.5k base cost spell that could be more expensive than alliance war purge. And then you could slot vamp/forward momentum to completely remove all snares, making using purge obsolete for all Templars.

Cinbri · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Serious question regarding Eclipse though - I hopped in the PTS and checked the values on my Templar. The tooltip was 5.7k for UC - on a healer build. Sounds a bit too strong in my humble opinion. But regardless, my question was:

a) Does the damage proc from UC count towards Purifying/PotL and gets stored?
b) Are damage set procs direct damage in the context of UC (Viper not probably)?
c) How about Boundless Storm and Hurricane? Do they proc UC too?

Rhawl’ka was empty so I couldn’t test it.

a) yes
b) yes, all procsets procs, including viper on first tick of its dot.
c) yes, on first tick.

Solariken · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The base cost increase to Cleansing Ritual is a very lazy change. I totally understand why they think it needs adjusted - the skill is VERY strong.

Increasing base cost is just a kick in the nuts to Stamplars, most of whom can only cast it 3 times consecutively already while it is only a very minor nerf to magplar.

Why not instead REDUCE the base cost as compared to live and give it the 4-second cost scaling penalty (edit: like Streak, Dodge roll). THAT is how you promote strategic use.

While you're at it, do the same for Cloak and Reflective Scale. Warden doesn't really have a signature move like the 4 vanilla classes but Wardens need a few gentle survivability nerfs too IMO.

I disagree on a scaling mechanic for purge.

There are tons of debuffs forcing Templars to use purge strategically on live. Forcing extra resorce drain to limit the number of consistent casts would mean stamplars would still only be able to purge 2-3 times in a row, but now further punish Templars.

You will see, it would get to the point where it would be better to build heavily into AOE/debuff defenses than it would be to cast a 3.5k base cost spell that could be more expensive than alliance war purge. And then you could slot vamp/forward momentum to completely remove all snares, making using purge obsolete for all Templars.

ZOS really wants to neuter this skill though. They've been toying at nerfs just about every patch.

Spam penalty cost scaling is an excellent mechanic in a game without cooldowns. This would also effect magplar and stamplar equally which is the most important goal IMO. I also think this is the only way to soft-limit the scope of the skill while also making its first cast even more efficient.

Edit - @Minno to your point about cost scaling making other skills more attractive to situationally complement CRitual, I don't see that as a bad thing

Solariken · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Serious question regarding Eclipse though - I hopped in the PTS and checked the values on my Templar. The tooltip was 5.7k for UC - on a healer build. Sounds a bit too strong in my humble opinion. But regardless, my question was:

a) Does the damage proc from UC count towards Purifying/PotL and gets stored?
b) Are damage set procs direct damage in the context of UC (Viper not probably)?
c) How about Boundless Storm and Hurricane? Do they proc UC too?

Rhawl’ka was empty so I couldn’t test it.

a) yes
b) yes, all procsets procs, including viper on first tick of its dot.
c) yes, on first tick.

@Cinbri Isn't it safe to assume that most procs (including Viper) wouldn't ever trigger Eclipse damage because of the 750ms cooldown on Eclipse damage?

Cinbri · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Serious question regarding Eclipse though - I hopped in the PTS and checked the values on my Templar. The tooltip was 5.7k for UC - on a healer build. Sounds a bit too strong in my humble opinion. But regardless, my question was:

a) Does the damage proc from UC count towards Purifying/PotL and gets stored?
b) Are damage set procs direct damage in the context of UC (Viper not probably)?
c) How about Boundless Storm and Hurricane? Do they proc UC too?

Rhawl’ka was empty so I couldn’t test it.

a) yes
b) yes, all procsets procs, including viper on first tick of its dot.
c) yes, on first tick.

@Cinbri Isn't it safe to assume that most procs (including Viper) wouldn't ever trigger Eclipse damage because of the 750ms cooldown on Eclipse damage?

On practice - yes. but many proc like scoria, veli, etc. are delayed damage and proc when cooldown ends, so in theory can proc. Tho it would be fun if they removed cooldown, so it feel more like reflect than debuff, but I guess it might be too much.

Minno · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The base cost increase to Cleansing Ritual is a very lazy change. I totally understand why they think it needs adjusted - the skill is VERY strong.

Increasing base cost is just a kick in the nuts to Stamplars, most of whom can only cast it 3 times consecutively already while it is only a very minor nerf to magplar.

Why not instead REDUCE the base cost as compared to live and give it the 4-second cost scaling penalty (edit: like Streak, Dodge roll). THAT is how you promote strategic use.

While you're at it, do the same for Cloak and Reflective Scale. Warden doesn't really have a signature move like the 4 vanilla classes but Wardens need a few gentle survivability nerfs too IMO.

I disagree on a scaling mechanic for purge.

There are tons of debuffs forcing Templars to use purge strategically on live. Forcing extra resorce drain to limit the number of consistent casts would mean stamplars would still only be able to purge 2-3 times in a row, but now further punish Templars.

You will see, it would get to the point where it would be better to build heavily into AOE/debuff defenses than it would be to cast a 3.5k base cost spell that could be more expensive than alliance war purge. And then you could slot vamp/forward momentum to completely remove all snares, making using purge obsolete for all Templars.

ZOS really wants to neuter this skill though. They've been toying at nerfs just about every patch.

Spam penalty cost scaling is an excellent mechanic in a game without cooldowns. This would also effect magplar and stamplar equally which is the most important goal IMO. I also think this is the only way to soft-limit the scope of the skill while also making its first cast even more efficient.

Edit - @Minno to your point about cost scaling making other skills more attractive to situationally complement CRitual, I don't see that as a bad thing

Yea, but they want it to do 2 debuff removed and not 5. I remember when they made that change lol.

But given the large amount of debuffs available, you can't make a change to increase cost to a class that has less Regen potential and even less mobilty and close to no defense without a reliable class purge. That's why the scaling mechanic is better for streak/dodge roll, both give a significant advantage to your mobilty but also to your survivability. And both of those were abused heavily because there were no hard counters; a heavy increase to cost was needed to make a counter to their use.

And we still have abilities that no one will use given the fast paced appreciate of PvP. So adding purge to that list, would be detrimental to the lifespan of current and future Templars. Most have moved on to sorcs/nightblades who have DMG + Mobility, both of which offset the large amount of debuffs in the field.

I do agree that purge should no longer be what makes a Templar viable in PvP. But some would argue that even purge in its current state is useless and would rather be able to move faster and deal significantly more DMG. I would support a sexy mobility mechanic over purge.

Solariken · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The base cost increase to Cleansing Ritual is a very lazy change. I totally understand why they think it needs adjusted - the skill is VERY strong.

Increasing base cost is just a kick in the nuts to Stamplars, most of whom can only cast it 3 times consecutively already while it is only a very minor nerf to magplar.

Why not instead REDUCE the base cost as compared to live and give it the 4-second cost scaling penalty (edit: like Streak, Dodge roll). THAT is how you promote strategic use.

While you're at it, do the same for Cloak and Reflective Scale. Warden doesn't really have a signature move like the 4 vanilla classes but Wardens need a few gentle survivability nerfs too IMO.

I disagree on a scaling mechanic for purge.

There are tons of debuffs forcing Templars to use purge strategically on live. Forcing extra resorce drain to limit the number of consistent casts would mean stamplars would still only be able to purge 2-3 times in a row, but now further punish Templars.

You will see, it would get to the point where it would be better to build heavily into AOE/debuff defenses than it would be to cast a 3.5k base cost spell that could be more expensive than alliance war purge. And then you could slot vamp/forward momentum to completely remove all snares, making using purge obsolete for all Templars.

ZOS really wants to neuter this skill though. They've been toying at nerfs just about every patch.

Spam penalty cost scaling is an excellent mechanic in a game without cooldowns. This would also effect magplar and stamplar equally which is the most important goal IMO. I also think this is the only way to soft-limit the scope of the skill while also making its first cast even more efficient.

Edit - @Minno to your point about cost scaling making other skills more attractive to situationally complement CRitual, I don't see that as a bad thing

Yea, but they want it to do 2 debuff removed and not 5. I remember when they made that change lol.

But given the large amount of debuffs available, you can't make a change to increase cost to a class that has less Regen potential and even less mobilty and close to no defense without a reliable class purge. That's why the scaling mechanic is better for streak/dodge roll, both give a significant advantage to your mobilty but also to your survivability. And both of those were abused heavily because there were no hard counters; a heavy increase to cost was needed to make a counter to their use.

And we still have abilities that no one will use given the fast paced appreciate of PvP. So adding purge to that list, would be detrimental to the lifespan of current and future Templars. Most have moved on to sorcs/nightblades who have DMG + Mobility, both of which offset the large amount of debuffs in the field.

I do agree that purge should no longer be what makes a Templar viable in PvP. But some would argue that even purge in its current state is useless and would rather be able to move faster and deal significantly more DMG. I would support a sexy mobility mechanic over purge.

I'd like some extra mobility too, but not a speed increase - it would be awesome if Sacred Ground also reduced the effectiveness of all snares on you while standing in your circles (-30% would be about right).

Edit - to take that idea further, Master Ritualist should lose the lame soul gem mechanic and increase the speed of heavy attacks by 25% while standing in your circles. Step into my house now! Haha

Minno · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The base cost increase to Cleansing Ritual is a very lazy change. I totally understand why they think it needs adjusted - the skill is VERY strong.

Increasing base cost is just a kick in the nuts to Stamplars, most of whom can only cast it 3 times consecutively already while it is only a very minor nerf to magplar.

Why not instead REDUCE the base cost as compared to live and give it the 4-second cost scaling penalty (edit: like Streak, Dodge roll). THAT is how you promote strategic use.

While you're at it, do the same for Cloak and Reflective Scale. Warden doesn't really have a signature move like the 4 vanilla classes but Wardens need a few gentle survivability nerfs too IMO.

I disagree on a scaling mechanic for purge.

There are tons of debuffs forcing Templars to use purge strategically on live. Forcing extra resorce drain to limit the number of consistent casts would mean stamplars would still only be able to purge 2-3 times in a row, but now further punish Templars.

You will see, it would get to the point where it would be better to build heavily into AOE/debuff defenses than it would be to cast a 3.5k base cost spell that could be more expensive than alliance war purge. And then you could slot vamp/forward momentum to completely remove all snares, making using purge obsolete for all Templars.

ZOS really wants to neuter this skill though. They've been toying at nerfs just about every patch.

Spam penalty cost scaling is an excellent mechanic in a game without cooldowns. This would also effect magplar and stamplar equally which is the most important goal IMO. I also think this is the only way to soft-limit the scope of the skill while also making its first cast even more efficient.

Edit - @Minno to your point about cost scaling making other skills more attractive to situationally complement CRitual, I don't see that as a bad thing

Yea, but they want it to do 2 debuff removed and not 5. I remember when they made that change lol.

But given the large amount of debuffs available, you can't make a change to increase cost to a class that has less Regen potential and even less mobilty and close to no defense without a reliable class purge. That's why the scaling mechanic is better for streak/dodge roll, both give a significant advantage to your mobilty but also to your survivability. And both of those were abused heavily because there were no hard counters; a heavy increase to cost was needed to make a counter to their use.

And we still have abilities that no one will use given the fast paced appreciate of PvP. So adding purge to that list, would be detrimental to the lifespan of current and future Templars. Most have moved on to sorcs/nightblades who have DMG + Mobility, both of which offset the large amount of debuffs in the field.

I do agree that purge should no longer be what makes a Templar viable in PvP. But some would argue that even purge in its current state is useless and would rather be able to move faster and deal significantly more DMG. I would support a sexy mobility mechanic over purge.

I'd like some extra mobility too, but not a speed increase - it would be awesome if Sacred Ground also reduced the effectiveness of all snares on you while standing in your circles (-30% would be about right).

Edit - to take that idea further, Master Ritualist should lose the lame soul gem mechanic and increase the speed of heavy attacks by 25% while standing in your circles. Step into my house now! Haha

But if we increase the cost to those circles, those passives would be terrible.

Most agree that having a circle on the floor only benefits pve content. For PvP, those classes that have a self buff and carries with them are generally more moble than classes that have to stay around.

Master ritualist should reduce the cast time on all channels/cast time abilities if you are in your circles (which would include heavy attack.). Having a faster jabs could help make our DPS burst more viable and therefore slotting hasty prayer could be a reality!!!

Sacred ground could grant snare immunity if you cast your circles. But we could also see this with hasty prayer grant snare removal + immunity for 8 seconds instead, which would be a great change for both mag/Stam toons.

With those changes, I would deslot purge for hasty prayer on my backbar. And therefore trade debuff removal for extra mobility. And the channel time reduction would be a dps boost without adjusting DMG numbers (but might need the snare effect reviewed; but most would be for that if it means our channel taking less time to finish it's cast.)

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Cinbri -

I know you're a really good player and probably more knowledgeable of the intricacies of templar mechanics than I am, but I think you are far overestimating the value of Eclipse.

I've used the skill in Maelstrom Arena and it was not something I would recommend or would use again. I didn't feel very protected using it. This is against unthinking, non-CC breaking NPCs. DK Wings, Warden Leeching Vines, even plain old Harness Magicka are all superior options.

You can say this is effective Vs. 90% of opponents and I guess it is, but it's *really* frustrating to slot a skill that has simply zero effect on bosses and elite NPCs. These are the most important PvE fights and I'm not going to waste a slot on my bar for an ability that is 100% useless in those situations. My DK wings, Warden Leeching vines, and plain old Harness Magicka work just fine in these scenarios.

We can stop right here and assert with confidence that just based on PvE alone Eclipse is in need of some fundamental reform. It's purely a PvP skill and being having such a limited scope for a limited amount of players in the ESO community, it better bring something genuinely exciting to the table.

It's highly debatable that it does.

I do think you are right in that this is supposed to function as the Templar CC: it follows the petrify-fear-rune prison formula of going through dodge, from what you posted I get the impression it goes through block (does it? It used to not) and because most opponents are going to CC break it, a templar casting eclipse will have the same result as a DK casting petrify: opponent is hit with an undesirable spell that will prompt them to immediately CC break and consume stamina.

Except:
Eclipse is noticeably more expensive

Eclipse does not have a strong after-effect debuff (neither does Rune Prison, but it's not like sorcs need help)

Eclipse does not stop the movement of an opponent

Eclipse does not actually drop an opponent's block in order to hit them with a meteor or allow allies to hit unblocking targets.

Eclipse can be purged and cleansed by Allies.

An opponent does not have to break this - for an example, an opponent who is fleeing won't care about being Eclipsed and this are precisely the opponents I often really want to CC.

An opponent could potentially fight just fine being Eclipsed. Talons, Curse, Flame Breath, Dawnbreaker, Meteor, Sap Essence, Deep Fissure, etc., all work just fine.

That's a lot of drawbacks and functions that Eclipse can't perform that the other classes real CCs can.. What exactly is Eclipse doing that Rune prison-Fear-Petrify can't? Some magic damage if our opponent's don't CC break and hit us with direct damage attacks. That's it. What if they chose not to fulfill these conditions? Well then a templar has just used 1000 more magicka on a potential CC break (let's not forget Eclipsed can be purged and cleansed unlike Fear, Fossilize, and Rune Prison) that does not even impede my opponent's movement and has no after-effect.

So, yes, it may sort of act as a quasi CC, but it is more expensive, has more limitations, and isn't nearly as versatile or good as the other class options. But that is what precisely has been wrong with Eclipse from the beginning and why no skill has undergone as many revisions and reforms as this because after all the devs have done, most templars do not use this for PvE or PvP.

Since you used Eclipse from Launch, that is the one before the initial Imperial City revision, I'll ask you would you rather have that one or what we have on the PTS? I don't think it's close, the original Eclipse was far and away superior ... and in the grand scheme of ESO, it wasn't even that good.

Consider, the Original Total Dark morph reflected back just about every attack in the game, which encompassed a much wider array of attacks, but in actually reflecting the attacks back, also inflicted the opponents with all the accompany DoTs, CCs, debuffs, burst damage, etc. I also got healed and the opponent took damage whether or not they CC broke. Think about that, you'd have to combine both morphs on the PTS just to get something that isn't nearly as good!.

I've said this after every single PTS patch and I'll say it again. What is on the PTS will not be used by the vast majority of Templar players, ether in PvE and PvP. At some point ZoS should come to the conclusion those of us who don't use Eclipse because it has too many limitations and doesn't do anything interesting or exciting to make up for those limitations, rather than we are ignorant of Eclipse's potential.

I totally agree. Eclipse has been one of the many skills in the Templar kit that I've complained about for a long time. It simply doesn't make sense in its design. I do find your assessment lists out a lot of my complaints about the skill including cost, slushiness, weakness, etc. Its a bad skill and there's no denying that if you have a level head about it. The cost issue is one I don't normally bring up, but I do believe it is a very important issue considering the bad resource management of the class (which has been ironic considering its initial design was meant to be the best resource manager). Templar's blazing shield is rather weak now, and we lost the best CC we had (Blinding Flashes) in exchange for the much hated laser beam years ago. Shards was only ever interesting as a cc when the game didn't have cc immunity. After that time the skill was pretty horrible and the only use for it now is in the pve-healer lineup, which I'm hearing isn't even the case because people generally like the undaunted bubbles more. I love the theme of Templar, but frankly I'm tired of the class, and tired of the changes. Its not that you can't make the class work, I just don't find it very fun anymore, and it frustrated me very early in the game to begin with. The class has always been clunky and seems to just go more and more in that direction. At the same time Sorcerer and Dragon Knight always feel smooth to me. Why should I bang my head into the wall when there's a more fluid enjoyable option? The only skills Templar have that are remotely interesting are: Jabs/Sweeps, Cleansing/extended Ritual, and maybe purifying light. Templar is boring and makes me sad that I made it my main character. Even the passives make me sad, when I look how the things which use to make Templar unique and interesting were given to other classes (and in better forms)... Balanced Warrior I'm looking at you. I'm going to /rant now.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ok, extensive tests completed and so is feedback:
Changes are actually great, but, unlike changes of dragonknights, its only half-way road changes, during next pts cycles we need additional tweaks to solidify new skills mechanics.
1. Eclipse - overall I don't understand all bad feedback about it and calling it crap... First of all and best thing - it became reliable skill that you can use against everyone, well at least against 90% of enemies, I can finally get this skill as my main CC and don't be afraid that all stamina builds will laugh at my face.

How can it be good when it doesn't reflect or stop DoTs, like Puncturing Sweep and Lightning Flood and Blockade of Elements and anything else classified as DoT which are most prevalent, where even in pvp players do use DoTs and ground targeted skills?

How can it be good when it can be broken by break free so easily and give that player free CC immunity without ever hampering their movement?
It's not even real "control" if it doesn't restrict movement in some way. At the very best this skill could be, it would only cause players to run away or avoid attacking for a very brief time due to the obvious futility of doing so with their build. That's not a win. This reminds me of the change to the heavy armor passives they thought would "get players to stop attacking the heavy armor class" as if they would notice those passives or even care because they're "so strong! stop the pain!" which they aren't.

How can it be good when, in pve, it doesn't even apply to anything but the very weakest enemies?
Seriously, this is the most stupid thing about this skill ever and has always been the problem with it. You can't use it against bosses, which we really wish we could, or even against enemies with just one of those special indicators on their health bars, like trolls and gargoyles.
Give me a break! That's just the most absolutely useless "control"/"defensive" skill ever because it doesn't provide any defense against the targets you need defense against most, all because of the stupid decision to give higher class npcs COMPLETE DEBUFF AND CONTROL IMMUNITY!

Just kill the Eclipse skill in pve already and put in the tooltip that it does nothing in pve and is meant for pvp. You're just confusing newer players with the lie that it could possibly be useful in pve when really the only time it is useful is when even a skeever or mudcrab could kill them because they don't know how to play, which means they wouldn't know how to use eclipse right anyway. Are accidental benefits to ignorant players(not an insult, different definition) a reason to keep this skill useless for skilled players?

As for Solar Barrage, a point blank AoE, meant to be used in melee range, with a cast time, with the amount of enemies in any group content especially vet content that can and do those big interrupt attacks or do that "run back and fling a snare" thing or just have an AoE that staggers us, makes it another pass in most of that content.
If I'm being pressured with interrupts so my cast time skills are risky then I'll risk that time only on Puncturing Sweep or Healing Ritual which would both maybe save my life during that time while Solar Barrage wouldn't. Also, Puncturing Sweep still does something when interrupted due to it being a channel which makes it a DoT and actually faster than an instant skill for a portion of the damage and self-heal on each hit.

So, Eclipse is garbage in pve and insanely easy to counter in pvp while Solar Barrage may be close to useful but is worthless when under pressure.
Thanks for nothing.

Edit: removed duplicate line.

I disagree. The changes they're making to Solar Barrage make the skill garbage. Its not useful at all. Go use something else with better dps and make use of the limited amount of slots on your bar. You explain why this is so but I think you're too gentle in describing the change. Its a horrible change that actually manages to make the skill even worse. If it worked with a timebomb feature like Proxy Det it MIGHT be useful IF you could activate it hidden in stealth. Even then I'm not so sure.

Solariken · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

The base cost increase to Cleansing Ritual is a very lazy change. I totally understand why they think it needs adjusted - the skill is VERY strong.

Increasing base cost is just a kick in the nuts to Stamplars, most of whom can only cast it 3 times consecutively already while it is only a very minor nerf to magplar.

Why not instead REDUCE the base cost as compared to live and give it the 4-second cost scaling penalty (edit: like Streak, Dodge roll). THAT is how you promote strategic use.

While you're at it, do the same for Cloak and Reflective Scale. Warden doesn't really have a signature move like the 4 vanilla classes but Wardens need a few gentle survivability nerfs too IMO.

I disagree on a scaling mechanic for purge.

There are tons of debuffs forcing Templars to use purge strategically on live. Forcing extra resorce drain to limit the number of consistent casts would mean stamplars would still only be able to purge 2-3 times in a row, but now further punish Templars.

You will see, it would get to the point where it would be better to build heavily into AOE/debuff defenses than it would be to cast a 3.5k base cost spell that could be more expensive than alliance war purge. And then you could slot vamp/forward momentum to completely remove all snares, making using purge obsolete for all Templars.

ZOS really wants to neuter this skill though. They've been toying at nerfs just about every patch.

Spam penalty cost scaling is an excellent mechanic in a game without cooldowns. This would also effect magplar and stamplar equally which is the most important goal IMO. I also think this is the only way to soft-limit the scope of the skill while also making its first cast even more efficient.

Edit - @Minno to your point about cost scaling making other skills more attractive to situationally complement CRitual, I don't see that as a bad thing

Yea, but they want it to do 2 debuff removed and not 5. I remember when they made that change lol.

But given the large amount of debuffs available, you can't make a change to increase cost to a class that has less Regen potential and even less mobilty and close to no defense without a reliable class purge. That's why the scaling mechanic is better for streak/dodge roll, both give a significant advantage to your mobilty but also to your survivability. And both of those were abused heavily because there were no hard counters; a heavy increase to cost was needed to make a counter to their use.

And we still have abilities that no one will use given the fast paced appreciate of PvP. So adding purge to that list, would be detrimental to the lifespan of current and future Templars. Most have moved on to sorcs/nightblades who have DMG + Mobility, both of which offset the large amount of debuffs in the field.

I do agree that purge should no longer be what makes a Templar viable in PvP. But some would argue that even purge in its current state is useless and would rather be able to move faster and deal significantly more DMG. I would support a sexy mobility mechanic over purge.

I'd like some extra mobility too, but not a speed increase - it would be awesome if Sacred Ground also reduced the effectiveness of all snares on you while standing in your circles (-30% would be about right).

Edit - to take that idea further, Master Ritualist should lose the lame soul gem mechanic and increase the speed of heavy attacks by 25% while standing in your circles. Step into my house now! Haha

But if we increase the cost to those circles, those passives would be terrible.

Most agree that having a circle on the floor only benefits pve content. For PvP, those classes that have a self buff and carries with them are generally more moble than classes that have to stay around.

Master ritualist should reduce the cast time on all channels/cast time abilities if you are in your circles (which would include heavy attack.). Having a faster jabs could help make our DPS burst more viable and therefore slotting hasty prayer could be a reality!!!

Sacred ground could grant snare immunity if you cast your circles. But we could also see this with hasty prayer grant snare removal + immunity for 8 seconds instead, which would be a great change for both mag/Stam toons.

With those changes, I would deslot purge for hasty prayer on my backbar. And therefore trade debuff removal for extra mobility. And the channel time reduction would be a dps boost without adjusting DMG numbers (but might need the snare effect reviewed; but most would be for that if it means our channel taking less time to finish it's cast.)

Awesome idea @Minno! A reduction of all cast times and channels via Master Ritualist while standing in your circles would be an absolutely YUGE quality of life improvement and make this class feel more fun again! @ZOS_Wrobel please please consider this.

While ground-based buffs are less potent in PvP, they can be very powerful. Extended Ritual has a very nice size and I do a lot of work with and within it. It's awesome for rock humping in BG's for example. I think the above change to Master Ritualist and a soft self snare reduction in Sacred Ground as previously mentioned would be all Templars need to feel great about building a house and calling it a home.

Katinas · October 2017

@ZOS_Wrobel
It is about time Templars get access to Major Sorcery and Major Brutality from a class skill.

Dragonknights have access to Major Sorcery from Molten Weapons and Major Brutality from its morph Igneous Weapons for 33 seconds.
Nightblades have access to Major Brutality from Drain Power and Major Sorcery from its morph Sap Essence for 20 seconds.
Sorcerers have access to Major Brutality from Surge and Major Sorcery from its morph Power Surge for 33 seconds.
Wardens have access to Major Sorcery from Betty Netch and Major Brutality from its morph Bull Netch for 27 seconds.

Templars have no skill to gain either Major Sorcery or Major Brutality from a class skill or class passive.
Balanced Warrior passive increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.
Suggestion: Increase both Spell and Weapon damage by 3-4% and increase both Spell and Physical Resistance by 1500-2000.

Illuminate passive grants the Templar and its allies Minor Sorcery for 20 seconds when casting a Dawn's Wrath skill.
Suggestion: Also add Major Sorcery for the casting Templar for 20 seconds.

Gnortranermara · October 2017

Katinas wrote: »

Balanced Warrior passive increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.
Suggestion: Increase both Spell and Weapon damage by 3-4%

Nono, no. That would be a Stamplar nerf, and nerfs of any kind are the last thing this class needs. Any given character only uses either Weapon OR Spell Damage, not both. If they buff both (which they should) they should both get the same full 6%.

Cinbri · October 2017

Few things that concern me:
A. Showed in bug section of one example, but Sweep ult very often still missing targets on initial hit, even if they 1m infront of you. I don't know why it happen but it really annoying, make you feel that you just wastig large portion of damage.

B. Dev comment about Solar Barrage is not justify adding cast time to treat it as initial skill. Those morphs and initial skill fill absolutely different roles and for that reason can't be treated equally. Solar Barrage as different from Solar Flare, Dark Flare as Repentance from Restoring Aura, Radiant Aura - different roles, different mechanics.

C. Nerf to purge is making feel that Templar have good sustain, but it simply not a truth. Templars are bad tanks, that fact everyone knows. While there is magicka dragonknights who is best tank from magicka classes, and, despite whiners try to claim that dk sustain is terrible, it sustain in pretty good spot. And for best tanks they getting only buffs for they sustain - more stamina from Battle Roar, while this passive have unique synergy with any ult generation sets, like Bloodspawn, that make restore resources overtime by ult higher. They got high buff to Helping Hands to restore stamina. Both those passives absolutely independent from other sources and can be only boosted.
On other side is Templar, who know as worst tank. They can no longer synnergize with itemization, like Battle Roar, since repenting monster adds was removed, decreasing its stamina sustain (and tbh it feels weird - while dk still can wear Bllodspawn or other ult generation sets (and that what they doing) and boost their triple resource restore even higher by changing part of restore mechanic that not contradict max resource part; Templars lost that possibility by restore its one resource by Repent. I remember my old calculations of how Bloodspawn boost resource restore of dk in compare to old repentable Engine Guardian for templar, and result: they equal in overall resource returns). Maybe its time to make monster adds repentable again to grant changed Repentance possibility to be affected by itemization? (since Repentance lost almost all group utility, that I believe was good change and fact that all other classes can synergize with itemizations [hint on Necropotence])
It does have 3 sustain skills, but those sustain skills have serious limitations unlike universal dk's ones. And unlike dk's templars got mostly nerfs: decrease of Aura profit, or 30% increase cost of Cleansing Ritual back in time now accompanied with additional 14% cost increase.
Zos should get some love to make sustain of Templar as good as zos claim it is:

1. Restoring Aura/Radiant Aura - mostly pvp skill because there is such skill as Elemental Drain for pve. It works longer, it has zero cost, it apply one of strongest debuff that especially good in pve, and since manasteal debuff can't be stacked - you don't need more than one enemy at a time with it. While Aura in pve - cost a lot, apply debuff on several targets, but it has no use, shorter than Drain, and only benefit is minor regen buffs. Main use of it in pve is aggroing and pulling mobs toward you for grinding.
And in pvp it has even stronger restrictions: its apply aoe debuff, but as said you can't stack it, in addition that debuff can be purged, making your cast unnefective; mana returns can be missed by target evading your damage.
Its base cost is 3510, however take into account Restoring Spirit passive - 3370. Back in time when manasteal restored 400 mana per second, with 18 sec duration it is 7200 mana restore in perfect conditions, that almost impossible to get anywhere beside dueling. That made mana profit for using skill 3830 mana.
After nerf to 300 mana restore it became: 5400 restore magicka and profit is 2070. Means after manasteal nerf Drain wasn't affected coz zero cost, but Aura's effectiveness decreased.
Mentioning again that get it almost impossible to get perfect rotation of it coz it can be evaded or purged. Make enemy dodge 5 attacks or purge it making skill to loose any profit of active cast. So, in pvp with such restrictions it not very reliable skill to use.
It contradict with Wardens skill, Veins - it automatically apply debuff on enemy target that hitted you or ally. Enemy can decrease gains by dodging, but purging here is uneffective coz debuff is self-reapplying, i.e. it has one less restriction. While Aura apply debuff of enemies around, Veins apply it smartly - on those who attack you or teammate, and making chance that you will proc healthstealing debuff by dots or damage very high.
To make Aura is solid sustain skill it should get some some buffs. Reduce its cost to fit nerfed manasteal debuff, so Aura would grant same resource restore as previous, or remove some of restrictions - for example change it like wardens one - to be self-buff with reapplayable debuff.

2. Honor the Dead - another sustain morph, picking which you loosing status of "healbot" because of limitations of healing it grant in compare with other morph BoL. Calling Templar with Honor as healbot is same as calling healbot sorc or nb with Healing Ward spammed on allies. Morph with its cutted healing capability obviously is pvp morph, so I'll talk about pvp.
And in return of its healing limitation it grant sustain, but this sustain once again has serious limitation coz its resource restore over time. Restore over 60% over 8 sec looks that way: 12%(initial cast)+12%+12%+12%+12%. Literally it means you will get 60% only in duel where you can afford to use skill every 6 sec. But in open-world, small-scale you will never get it, because its main defensive skill that Templar forced to spam in attempt to survive. While heavy pressured you might afford to cast it every 2 sec, gaining 24% mana restore or 4sec to gain 36%, but even if you wear heavy armor while focused by at least 2 enemies, you cant afford to wait 6 seconds before recast coz you probably will be dead. Also even as frontal cone in group fights it has high chance to be stolen by allies, that forcing you immediately recast skill for self, once again restrict mana return to 12%. That making this sustain return that on paper look awesome 60% de facto twice worse in 90% of situations. In its restore it so far from Harness Magicka that with meta stacking can return more than 50% of its cost on every recast (there is al lot comments about how much sustain it grants), almost instantly. Honor can't do even half of restore of Harness.
It restriction in return making it once again good on paper, but de facto much weaker than sustain should be.
That's why I suggest to buff mana returns to make it restore 60% over 6 sec, or keep 8sec but restore 75%. Because restore resources over time is rough, and you know it.

3. And 3rd sustain skill - Channeled Focus. And once again same as previous 2 skills it has serious limitations. It is 15-18 sec buff that restore 240 mana per second with possibility to move away for 8 sec. I was agree that for its restrictions it has low cost and can be spammed, but not anymore.
Lets compare cost - effect:
Lighting Form: 3848/23 = 167 mana used per second.
Volatile Armor: 2700/20 = 135 mana used per second.
Rune Focus: 1815/15 = 121 mana used per second.
Channeled Focus: 1037/18 = 57 mana used per second.
^^^ from here Focus use just a bit less mana than Volatile but it has 5 sec shorter duration, that means it will be used more often, i.e. shorter GCD than any other same skill (including Blue Netch). While Focus wins 885 mana, with average mana regen nowdays ~1400, for its 2 sec shorter duration it will loose 1400 mana more, while Volatile armor with those additional gain of mana completely repay its cost without loosing additional effects. Exact same with Lightning Form.
Next: Channeled Focus is double reducing mana spent on cast, its it morph feature, same as mana return: Form - duration and speedbuff, Volatile - aoe dot. But unlike Channeled it cant be wasted. While benefits of Rune from passives like Sacred Ground is irrelevant - it doesn't matter that you can heal stronger and apply snare in small area, when every Templar use Cleansing Ritual that to exact same but in giant radius.
Movement in pvp is very important for that reason. Especially given that Templar has worst mobility kiting for me already hard, but activating Focus for defense means you will gain only 8 sec of it. For this 8 sec - you restore 1920 mana, that is 883 mana profit of skill. Compare it with Volatile: it will have all buffs applied to you for full duration, while longer recast repay its cost, and doesn't punish mobility; while Channeled will grant only 8 sec buffs and 883 mana return. In such situation you want to recast Channeled to gain major buffs again to reduce damage, but it means that 883 mana you gained from previous cast minus 1037 = -154 mana profit, i.e. morph what supposed to be strength is not working; you wasting mana gains on recasts. Ofcourse in static situation skill works better, but, it means skill promoting turtling, i.e. all those useless tank builds that stack reactive+malubet, etc. what called "cancer meta". While in open world, even in duels, after leaving rune you with high chance wont return back.
Recap: while other skills cost more they have at least 2 effects attached to them for full duration, and gcd of its full duration repay its cost completely.

Now lets imagine you somehow manage to get full effect (pretty mythical but still). And compare mana gain with Blue Betty:
Channeled 8sec - 1920 mana restore, full 18sec - 4320 mana restore. 240mana/s
Netch - cant be wasted and always restore full mana 25sec - 4029. 161mana/s
^^From using in mobile situations it restore twice more than 8sec Channeled. And with being zero cost it is full 4029 profit profit, unlike Channeled -154.
And it looks like Channeled full duration is much stronger in mana returns, but that's not: with 25 sec duration of mana return that equal to 2 Rune casts, mana return of Rune will be 240*25=6000-2074= 3926 mana gain.
While Blue Betty for duration of its 1 cast and free recast of next one: 4029-(0*2)= 4029 mana gain.
Even with full duration Blue Betty restore just a bit but still more mana than Channeled. You can make Channeled to restore more than Betty but only by forced to play light armor/reduce cost glyphs while Betty mana restore will be always 100% returns and independent to itemization. And for lower mana returns Betty got much more utility, including interfere with itemizations (proc Necropotence)

TL;DR: Current Channeled Focus not just loosing in utility to other classes coz its ground-based bonus cant be used on full strength while others benefit for its 100% strength, but even in mana returns it restricted too much.
That why I suggest: keep it as ground ability but make buffs to attached to caster for majority of time, not minority.

P.S.: TL;DR: while it looks like Templar have great resources sustain coz number of sustain skills, de facto unlike other classes, those skills restricted so high, that benefit from choosing even full sustain morphs(that's what I doing) is not that crucial in combine effectiveness. And now with increased cost of class-defining purge, sustain part must be buffed.
@ZOS_Wrobel

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2017

Katinas wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel
It is about time Templars get access to Major Sorcery and Major Brutality from a class skill.

Dragonknights have access to Major Sorcery from Molten Weapons and Major Brutality from its morph Igneous Weapons for 33 seconds.
Nightblades have access to Major Brutality from Drain Power and Major Sorcery from its morph Sap Essence for 20 seconds.
Sorcerers have access to Major Brutality from Surge and Major Sorcery from its morph Power Surge for 33 seconds.
Wardens have access to Major Sorcery from Betty Netch and Major Brutality from its morph Bull Netch for 27 seconds.

Templars have no skill to gain either Major Sorcery or Major Brutality from a class skill or class passive.
Balanced Warrior passive increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.
Suggestion: Increase both Spell and Weapon damage by 3-4% and increase both Spell and Physical Resistance by 1500-2000.

Illuminate passive grants the Templar and its allies Minor Sorcery for 20 seconds when casting a Dawn's Wrath skill.
Suggestion: Also add Major Sorcery for the casting Templar for 20 seconds.

I'd like to point out that those other classes get access to the buffs you're talking about, but some of them get better or equal versions of Balanced Warrior now... I'm not sure you want to weaken this passive any more than it has been weakened.

Feanor · October 2017

Also Templar does have access to major defile, one of the strongest debuffs in game... But of course I understand slotting entropy or running spell power pots is not optimal.

Fuxo · October 2017

Yes, the buffs should be revisited. Templars did not have major sorcery in the original design since they had major mending. But major mending is long gone. Stamplars have weapon damage bonus from balanced warrior, but magicka templars have been nerfed a lot.

A solution for increasing DPS without increasing healing for magicka templars is to change balanced warrior passive to give +5% damage done (< minor berserk) instead of just weapon damage.

jbjondeaueb17_ESO · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Also Templar does have access to major defile, one of the strongest debuffs in game... But of course I understand slotting entropy or running spell power pots is not optimal.

Except Major Defile is only useful in PvP and "hidden" behind a skill, even if it can do high damage in PvP, is a long channel, slow travel, and easily dodgeable skill.

Katinas · October 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to point out that those other classes get access to the buffs you're talking about, but some of them get better or equal versions of Balanced Warrior now... I'm not sure you want to weaken this passive any more than it has been weakened.

The passive is somewhat of a running joke. It is called Balanced Warrior and increases Spell Resistance and Weapon Damage. Would it be more balanced if it increased Physical Resistance and Spell Damage, or would it be less balanced?
My suggestion is to make it more overall balanced by increasing both types of resistances and both types of damage. But increasing both stats would be a bit too overpowered that's why I suggested increasing both values but at a slightly lower value. 6% of both WD and SD plus 2640 of both SR and PR would be a major buff. I would be very happy indeed if it increased both damages by around 3-4% and both resistances by around 2k.

Cinbri · October 2017

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Also Templar does have access to major defile, one of the strongest debuffs in game... But of course I understand slotting entropy or running spell power pots is not optimal.

Except Major Defile is only useful in PvP and "hidden" behind a skill, even if it can do high damage in PvP, is a long channel, slow travel, and easily dodgeable skill.

Well, we will see next week how does sorcs will feel to stand there in cast inerruptable channel in attempt to get strong effect with aoe.

Another thing that disturb me is that Templar lack of defensive Hard CC.
People saying that removal of stun from Blazing is promoted healbots. It is weird to hear coz old mechanic of Blazing is what was benefiting healbots: even with low dps it was still large(8m) aoe with huge range, unblockable dot, strongest in game synergy, and undodgeable Stun. It was frustrating when healbots were spamming it standing in save 20m away and stunning you all the time while simultaneously granted their team resource restore synergy. Also having CC effect for both morphs was bad implementation coz it prevented to combine with other CCs - Toppling Charge or Eclipse. That's why removal hard CC from Blazing was good change.
However as I said Templar is only class that now lack of defensive AoE+CC. For offense we have new Unstable Core, but we need also defensive.
That's why to fix it I believe either Luminous Shards or Solar Barrage should changed to be AoE+CC:
1. Everyone knows basic quote of death recap and game rule: to fight outnumbered use skill with "defensive" CC (irony that recap still telling us to use Shards..) to equal the odds. But sadly we lack of such skill now. Total Dark is defensive but is soft CC with lost aoe damage component.
2. Since it should be AoE, as other classes have - it should be either new Barrage or Luminous Shards. But since zos wana make skill lines to promote roles - Aedric Spear line for tanking, so one morph of Shards should get back it's CC - Luminous:
a) Removing CC back in time was nice but in the end it was removed from both morphs, reducing diversity of skill slots. Anyone with CC could slot Blazing and CC; anyone without CC could slot Luminous for CC and other skill for damage. For diversity Luminous could get it back.
b) Current Luminous doesn't benefit for class, its promote group play. I believe skills, like passives in first way should benefit for caster, that making morph unique and universal in any implementation. And even unmorphed Shards while being AoE already helping a lot with group play - it has strongest in-game synergy that can benefit only allies, but not caster. That's why current even more restore resources should be changed. It should be AoE, not yet another skill for zergers.
c) There is easy way to implement CC for Luminous - by remove mechanics that were making previous usage too OP. Main such mechanic is huge 25m range that skill could be used. Zos already showed on examples of Petirfy that range is important. Also Elemental ring which effect is becoming ranged aoe. Without range it automatically become 8m aoe with smart direction choose, i.e. used only in melee range.
So, Luminous morph should be removed more resources from synergy, remove range (upon casting skill, Shards would land on head of your char) and grant unblockable Stun for 2 sec. Maybe even reduce radius of AoE or synnergy.
Thus way it would be melee undodgeable/nblockable AoE with delay hard CC. In compare to another morph it will be obvious dps loss, less utility coz caster will be forced to go melee range, i.e. healers won't be capable to exploit it.
d) another reason why it would be good on Shards - is because it is delayed CC. Everyone who used Shards knows that unlike other AoE skills Shards have very obvious "land time". But that was playing positive role to make it's CC as defensive - as example back when Blazing had stun: when you saw enemy prepare or already used gap-closer on you - you could cast Sahrd on yourself and prepare your damage rotations; when enemy was reaching you they were CCed before they could block by Stun delay coz "land time". It was some kind of anti-gapcloser CC. And by being CC means that in melee range CC was automatically undodgeable single target without actually being AoE CC.So Luminous could become undodgeable/unblockable single target CC with AoE damage.
@ZOS_Wrobel

NevoX · October 2017

Bring back Stun/CC for Blazing spear.
Was taken away before all the counter measures for CC was created.

Kind regards

Nevo X

technohic · October 2017

Katinas wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to point out that those other classes get access to the buffs you're talking about, but some of them get better or equal versions of Balanced Warrior now... I'm not sure you want to weaken this passive any more than it has been weakened.

The passive is somewhat of a running joke. It is called Balanced Warrior and increases Spell Resistance and Weapon Damage. Would it be more balanced if it increased Physical Resistance and Spell Damage, or would it be less balanced?
My suggestion is to make it more overall balanced by increasing both types of resistances and both types of damage. But increasing both stats would be a bit too overpowered that's why I suggested increasing both values but at a slightly lower value. 6% of both WD and SD plus 2640 of both SR and PR would be a major buff. I would be very happy indeed if it increased both damages by around 3-4% and both resistances by around 2k.

Could just do both damages and forget the resistance

Whatever they do, they should not buff magplar at Stamplar expense.

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

Katinas wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel
It is about time Templars get access to Major Sorcery and Major Brutality from a class skill.

Dragonknights have access to Major Sorcery from Molten Weapons and Major Brutality from its morph Igneous Weapons for 33 seconds.
Nightblades have access to Major Brutality from Drain Power and Major Sorcery from its morph Sap Essence for 20 seconds.
Sorcerers have access to Major Brutality from Surge and Major Sorcery from its morph Power Surge for 33 seconds.
Wardens have access to Major Sorcery from Betty Netch and Major Brutality from its morph Bull Netch for 27 seconds.

Templars have no skill to gain either Major Sorcery or Major Brutality from a class skill or class passive.
Balanced Warrior passive increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.
Suggestion: Increase both Spell and Weapon damage by 3-4% and increase both Spell and Physical Resistance by 1500-2000.

Illuminate passive grants the Templar and its allies Minor Sorcery for 20 seconds when casting a Dawn's Wrath skill.
Suggestion: Also add Major Sorcery for the casting Templar for 20 seconds.

Good suggestion.

Solariken · October 2017

Why are so many people crusading against Balanced Warrior?

1) It IS balanced because it provides an offensive boon and a defensive boon.

2) The spell resistance benefits all Templars equally.

3) The 6% weapon damage is not really unfair to magplars since they get 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery.

This passive is fine.

Major Brutality/Sorcery is a separate issue and I agree that we NEED these buffs in the class kit. Everything in the game is balanced around having these core buffs. I wish ZOS would find an intelligent way to add both buffs to the class.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Why are so many people crusading against Balanced Warrior?

1) It IS balanced because it provides an offensive boon and a defensive boon.

2) The spell resistance benefits all Templars equally.

3) The 6% weapon damage is not really unfair to magplars since they get 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery.

This passive is fine.

Major Brutality/Sorcery is a separate issue and I agree that we NEED these buffs in the class kit. Everything in the game is balanced around having these core buffs. I wish ZOS would find an intelligent way to add both buffs to the class.

I'm not railing against Balanced Warrior. I like the concept of the passive, but I have a problem with the way they've lowered the Templar recovery rates while simultaneously handed out similar passives to other classes like Balanced Warrior like candy. In the case of Stamplar they work, if you can blast your enemy quickly. The exhaustion rate on Templar is very high though, and they've wrecked what was already a confining Repentance skill by causing all Templars to compete with one another for these resources. As a Templar I can't stand other Templars being around, which I find rather annoying from a matter of design. There are gameplay reasons for this as well as thematic reasons for this (Templar is clearly the Stendarr-oriented, Imperial Legion oriented class). It seems at odds with the theme of the class that the more Templars on the field, the less effective they each become.

Solariken · October 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Why are so many people crusading against Balanced Warrior?

1) It IS balanced because it provides an offensive boon and a defensive boon.

2) The spell resistance benefits all Templars equally.

3) The 6% weapon damage is not really unfair to magplars since they get 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery.

This passive is fine.

Major Brutality/Sorcery is a separate issue and I agree that we NEED these buffs in the class kit. Everything in the game is balanced around having these core buffs. I wish ZOS would find an intelligent way to add both buffs to the class.

I'm not railing against Balanced Warrior. I like the concept of the passive, but I have a problem with the way they've lowered the Templar recovery rates while simultaneously handed out similar passives to other classes like Balanced Warrior like candy. In the case of Stamplar they work, if you can blast your enemy quickly. The exhaustion rate on Templar is very high though, and they've wrecked what was already a confining Repentance skill by causing all Templars to compete with one another for these resources. As a Templar I can't stand other Templars being around, which I find rather annoying from a matter of design. There are gameplay reasons for this as well as thematic reasons for this (Templar is clearly the Stendarr-oriented, Imperial Legion oriented class). It seems at odds with the theme of the class that the more Templars on the field, the less effective they each become.

I completely agree with you here on all points and want to see these things addressed, I just don't think Balanced Warrior needs anything changed. The really garbage passives that should be the focus for revision are Enduring Rays, Light Weaver, and to a lesser extent Master Ritualist.

Repentance makes me angry too. I just don't understand how ZOS could have been so small-minded with that change. ):<

Joy_Division · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Why are so many people crusading against Balanced Warrior?

1) It IS balanced because it provides an offensive boon and a defensive boon.

2) The spell resistance benefits all Templars equally.

3) The 6% weapon damage is not really unfair to magplars since they get 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery.

This passive is fine.

Major Brutality/Sorcery is a separate issue and I agree that we NEED these buffs in the class kit. Everything in the game is balanced around having these core buffs. I wish ZOS would find an intelligent way to add both buffs to the class.

Because it doesn't provide an offensive boon to magplars. Because every class I group with also gets 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery. Because NB Master Assassin increases Weapon and spell damage, because NB Pressure Points increases weapon and spell critical, because Sorcerer Expert mage increases weapon and spell damage (look at the name of the passive again, MAGE!).

And, magplar DPS is absolutely terrible.

The passive is not fine because it is an anachronistic vestige of pre-1.6 nebulous and ambiguous mess that did not neatly separate weapon damage for stamina users and spell damage for magicka users.

Solariken · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Why are so many people crusading against Balanced Warrior?

1) It IS balanced because it provides an offensive boon and a defensive boon.

2) The spell resistance benefits all Templars equally.

3) The 6% weapon damage is not really unfair to magplars since they get 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery.

This passive is fine.

Major Brutality/Sorcery is a separate issue and I agree that we NEED these buffs in the class kit. Everything in the game is balanced around having these core buffs. I wish ZOS would find an intelligent way to add both buffs to the class.

Because it doesn't provide an offensive boon to magplars. Because every class I group with also gets 100% uptime on Minor Sorcery. Because NB Master Assassin increases Weapon and spell damage, because NB Pressure Points increases weapon and spell critical, because Sorcerer Expert mage increases weapon and spell damage (look at the name of the passive again, MAGE!).

And, magplar DPS is absolutely terrible.

The passive is not fine because it is an anachronistic vestige of pre-1.6 nebulous and ambiguous mess that did not neatly separate weapon damage for stamina users and spell damage for magicka users.

Magplar DPS is bad, but adding a flavorless spell dmg boost to Balanced Warrior is not the answer. They need to fix % modifiers on skills and look at the Master Ritualist suggestions we cooked up above. For the record, I think it's dumb that they added weapon damge to Expert Mage - the lack of imagination in the combat devs is very sad.

Gan Xing · October 2017

maxjapank wrote: »

Reading all the comments about the new Eclipse is saddening. Those who didn't like Total Dark before was mainly because it only reflected ranged. So complaints were made and now the unbreakable part is gone, which was the strength of the spell. The fact that it couldn't reflect birds was an oversight of the devs. Any instant cast ranged ability should've been reflected. Total Dark shut down ranged, was unbreakable, could heal you, and finished with an aoe explosion. I don't know what to say now. Thanks?

In general birds aren't able to be reflected b/c they are like a conjured projectile, and the bird isn't coming directly from the caster. It is a weird, and annoying, especially when it's undodgeable. I think they wanted the eclipse/total dark to resemble the abilities used by the guards. In my opinion, this will be potent, and extremely irritating to fight against