SodanTok wrote: »

Arent Khajiit 2nd best stam race in PVE?
But they are the worst PVP race indeed.

Personally both races with sneak damage (bosmer, khajiit) are in disadvantage when not using it (so not ganking or RP)

Supernatural wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

How are caltrops trash in PvP? They do much more damage, are much cheaper and can be stacked by many players. They are actually much stronger now. And the reason bow heavy attacks cannot be held anymore is because of ganking, not because of PvE.

Bow heavy attacks are because of PVE

The only place where it's worth charging heavy attacks with a Bow in PvE is Maelstrom Arena, which is hardly a reason for a nerf like that. Other than that, in trials it would be a huge DPS, as they take way too long to charge. And yes, khajiit is currently the 2nd best stamina race for PvE, and the worst for PvP, and that is the reason I made he post in the first place, this is simply not right.

Supernatural wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Arent Khajiit 2nd best stam race in PVE?
But they are the worst PVP race indeed.

Personally both races with sneak damage (bosmer, khajiit) are in disadvantage when not using it (so not ganking or RP)

Supernatural wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

Keep your hands off the Health recovery passive . Its the best passive in the game for health rec builds which ARE viable in PvP . U dirty PVErs have planty other race choices that offers high damage and sustain .

....I love it.

He comes here to *** at PVEers for being entitled when every patch has changed specifically for PVP, and spells like a three year old. Absolutely love it, ten out of ten.

English is not my language so i dont care if spelling it like 3 year old . Also cuz of PVE , Caltrops got reworked and now its trash in PvP , bow attacks have been Strongly nerfed in damage output and we cannot hold our arrows anymore .

How are caltrops trash in PvP? They do much more damage, are much cheaper and can be stacked by many players. They are actually much stronger now. And the reason bow heavy attacks cannot be held anymore is because of ganking, not because of PvE.

Bow heavy attacks are because of PVE

The only place where it's worth charging heavy attacks with a Bow in PvE is Maelstrom Arena, which is hardly a reason for a nerf like that. Other than that, in trials it would be a huge DPS, as they take way too long to charge. And yes, khajiit is currently the 2nd best stamina race for PvE, and the worst for PvP, and that is the reason I made he post in the first place, this is simply not right.

Bow/bow builds need to heavy attack too Thats why it was changed

Regarding khajiit, being last sux I agree. At least on bosmer your race is bad at both, but not worst in either.
I would simply remove the sneak passive and move the sneak detection to legerdemain and give khajiit stat boost and bosmer some basic damage (like mag classes have, + to poison/disease for example)

Would be nice of khajits got a max stam bonus.

A lot of people don't realize that crit % becomes more valuable the less of it you have.

Here's a pile of math:
The Khajiit passive contributes 0.7% more DPS to their build with this PVE meta than the last meta. The reason Redguards are slightly better after Morrowind is they can pull off a couple more skills overall while working within a tight buff window, but it's not because crits suddenly became worthless.

SodanTok wrote: »

Arent Khajiit 2nd best stam race in PVE?

How? In terms of stam regen they are not that strong.

8% crit translates into only 4% more damage unless you are heavily invested in Crit Damage.
-You can get up to 25% from champion points, but you would be giving up other very useful things like Phys Pen, Thamaturge, etc. I doubt many people would recommend investing so heavily in Precise Strikes.
-Major Force 15% - Warhorn & Pancea only, not a great uptime unless you have a large group spamming these ults instead of damage ults.
-Minor Force 10% - Trap Beast 6s, *** uptime or requires your target to hold still. Alternatively there is a light armor set and a heavy armor set that give magika and this buff, not really feasible to depend on this unless you are hitting a combat dummy.
-Templar and NB each get 10%
So you can get up to 100-110% Crit Damage, but it requires you to give up a lot of other good CPs, have a group buffing you constant, be hitting a stationary target with trap beast, and be a stamplar or stamblade. Seems kinda niche.
Idk how many points in Precise Strikes most people have, but more than 50 points in Precise Strikes it starts to scale real bad, for 18.75%, and depending on the content they may or may not spam trap beast and may or may not be NB/Templar. Kitty with ~75% crit damage is probably the most common.
IE at face value Khajiit's 'Carnage' is worth about 6% more damage.

When you consider all the other sources of crit though, its actually an even worse relative increase in damage.
Baseline 10%
Perfect Strike CP 12%
Medium Armor 'Dexterity' 10.5%
So the minimum crit any stam char will have is 32%
1.405/1.325 = 1.06
So the best relative increase in crit chance for a stam Khajiit is actually only 6%, which equates to a 4.5% increase in damage done from Carnage for a toon fairly heavily invested in Crit Damage, and no investment in Crit Chance. Thats not a good case scenario for an actual build, but its best case scenario for maximizing the relative value of 'Carnage'.
That relative increase in damage also scales inversely with Savagery, crit from sets, precise or any investment in crit chance at all. If you are an idiot like me and have a crit khajiit with 84% crit chance unbuffed in like blue gear, 'Carnage' is only worth like a 3.4% increase in damage.

Compare that to the 10% extra stam that Redguards get, which BTW scales directly with investment in stam, with food, with stam from gear etc....
7958 Base Stamina
2520 From I think purple Jewelry
3192 from Dubious Camoran Drink
7104 From Attributes
1591 From first 100 green CP
3960-4752 From Enchants,
26325 base stam minimum for a stam build, not considering set bonuses, mundus etc, which equates to 2507 effective weapon power.
-Redguard, Imperial stam classes essentially get a free 251 weapon power for being that race, even without any further investment from sets. Gold 2h with 'Agility' is 1495 weapon power. Minimum effective weapon damage for a stam build is 4002. Redguard and Imperial thus get a free 6% relative increase in stam damage. As a relative increase this can go up with further investment in stam from mundus or set, though it can go down slightly from weapon damage based sets. Compare this with Khajiits best case scenario of 4.5% relative increase.
Nord, Dunmer, Bosmer, and Orc all get 6% extra Stam, or 150 free effective weapon power minimum, 3.6% relative extra damage.
Orc though gets 4% free extra melee damage, a source that doesnt have to compete much with other sources, and so scales extremely well with gear investment. Bosmer get a crap ton of stam recovery, so much so that if they build for it the heavy attack meta does not apply to them in the slightest.
Probably as a pure PvE stam DPS, if racially optimized:
Melee:
Redguard > Orc, Bosmer > Khajiit, Imperial> Nord, Dunmer

Ranged:
Bosmer > Redguard, Khajiit > Imperial > Nord, Dunmer, Orc

IMO since Khajiit are worthless in PvP besides ganking suckers, they should at least be better than their current 3rd-5th tier in their PvE niche.

Urza1234 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Arent Khajiit 2nd best stam race in PVE?

How? In terms of stam regen they are not that strong.

8% crit translates into only 4% more damage unless you are heavily invested in Crit Damage.
-You can get up to 25% from champion points, but you would be giving up other very useful things like Phys Pen, Thamaturge, etc. I doubt many people would recommend investing so heavily in Precise Strikes.
-Major Force 15% - Warhorn & Pancea only, not a great uptime unless you have a large group spamming these ults instead of damage ults.
-Minor Force 10% - Trap Beast 6s, *** uptime or requires your target to hold still. Alternatively there is a light armor set and a heavy armor set that give magika and this buff, not really feasible to depend on this unless you are hitting a combat dummy.
-Templar and NB each get 10%
So you can get up to 100-110% Crit Damage, but it requires you to give up a lot of other good CPs, have a group buffing you constant, be hitting a stationary target with trap beast, and be a stamplar or stamblade. Seems kinda niche.
Idk how many points in Precise Strikes most people have, but more than 50 points in Precise Strikes it starts to scale real bad, for 18.75%, and depending on the content they may or may not spam trap beast and may or may not be NB/Templar. Kitty with ~75% crit damage is probably the most common.
IE at face value Khajiit's 'Carnage' is worth about 6% more damage.

When you consider all the other sources of crit though, its actually an even worse relative increase in damage.
Baseline 10%
Perfect Strike CP 12%
Medium Armor 'Dexterity' 10.5%
So the minimum crit any stam char will have is 32%
1.405/1.325 = 1.06
So the best relative increase in crit chance for a stam Khajiit is actually only 6%, which equates to a 4.5% increase in damage done from Carnage for a toon fairly heavily invested in Crit Damage, and no investment in Crit Chance. Thats not a good case scenario for an actual build, but its best case scenario for maximizing the relative value of 'Carnage'.
That relative increase in damage also scales inversely with Savagery, crit from sets, precise or any investment in crit chance at all. If you are an idiot like me and have a crit khajiit with 84% crit chance unbuffed in like blue gear, 'Carnage' is only worth like a 3.4% increase in damage.

Compare that to the 10% extra stam that Redguards get, which BTW scales directly with investment in stam, with food, with stam from gear etc....
7958 Base Stamina
2520 From I think purple Jewelry
3192 from Dubious Camoran Drink
7104 From Attributes
1591 From first 100 green CP
3960-4752 From Enchants,
26325 base stam minimum for a stam build, not considering set bonuses, mundus etc, which equates to 2507 effective weapon power.
-Redguard, Imperial stam classes essentially get a free 251 weapon power for being that race, even without any further investment from sets. Gold 2h with 'Agility' is 1495 weapon power. Minimum effective weapon damage for a stam build is 4002. Redguard and Imperial thus get a free 6% relative increase in stam damage. As a relative increase this can go up with further investment in stam from mundus or set, though it can go down slightly from weapon damage based sets. Compare this with Khajiits best case scenario of 4.5% relative increase.
Nord, Dunmer, Bosmer, and Orc all get 6% extra Stam, or 150 free effective weapon power minimum, 3.6% relative extra damage.
Orc though gets 4% free extra melee damage, a source that doesnt have to compete much with other sources, and so scales extremely well with gear investment. Bosmer get a crap ton of stam recovery, so much so that if they build for it the heavy attack meta does not apply to them in the slightest.
Probably as a pure PvE stam DPS, if racially optimized:
Melee:
Redguard > Orc, Bosmer > Khajiit, Imperial> Nord, Dunmer

Ranged:
Bosmer > Redguard, Khajiit > Imperial > Nord, Dunmer, Orc

IMO since Khajiit are worthless in PvP besides ganking suckers, they should at least be better than their current 3rd-5th tier in their PvE niche.

Actually Bosmer is better than Khajiit at ganking as well. They get an extra 6% bonus to stamina, and from stealth you always crit anyways so..

Idk, I dont really play Orc, havent tested their passives, I thought I read somewhere that it was applied after CP points.

IMO quantifying the value of the stam regen of Redguard, Khajiit, and especially Bosmer is a bit tricky, because its so dependent on build, playstyle, rotation, and simply mechanical application of skill, but if you have to heavy attack more than like once per rotation on bosmer I dont think you are building for the full value of the race.
In the end though I think I can quantify that in most conditions 6% extra stam is at least equivalent to 8% crit if not slightly better. With that being equivalent, and 20% stam recovery still > 10% stam recovery, I still think that bosmer is better than khajiit.

SodanTok wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Idk, I dont really play Orc, havent tested their passives, I thought I read somewhere that it was applied after CP points.

IMO quantifying the value of the stam regen of Redguard, Khajiit, and especially Bosmer is a bit tricky, because its so dependent on build, playstyle, rotation, and simply mechanical application of skill, but if you have to heavy attack more than like once per rotation I dont think you are building for the full value of the race.
In the end though I think I can quantify that in most conditions 6% extra stam is at least equivalent to 8% crit if not slightly better. With that being equivalent, and 20% stam recovery still > 10% stam recovery, I still think that bosmer is better than khajiit.

Nothing is tricky. At the higher end, everything is literally the same for stamina DD. Nearly identical rotations and identical gear setup. At that tier, khajiit is more damage, but redguard with the sustain gives you some breath. So that is more of preference. Plus we are talking about small difference. But when it comes to 6% max stam, that 8% crit is better every time in PVE. Recovery means very little in PVE, since building for it over doing more heavy attacks is huge DPS loss.

Go try 6M dummy. That 11% more recovery bosmer has means you will do 1-2 less heavy attack. Not in rotation. In the whole fight.

And I am not saying they should not be buffed, because they are 2nd best in PVE. I think they should be buffed, but in a way that has small or none impact on damage. Because they already re best at damage. They need PVP related buffs, so something with sustain or survivability.

No, they should be buffed in a way where they will be doing noticeably more damage than a Redguard does in end-game PvE. With all the nerfs to critical chance and damage, they are doing less than 1% damage than a Redguard does, which is simply silly. There should be some reward for running a low-sustain race like a Khajiit, and right now there is no such thing.

And as far as PvP goes, I said it already. It would make no sense for Khajiit to be given more sustain or survivability, there are already many races which fullfill that purpose.

Kidur wrote: »

And i was thinking of rolling a khajiit stamblade or stamdk.Dang

Had you been new to the game and just read the racial description or come from TES you would probably do so.

The way racial passives works is one of the most mindbogglingly stupid things in this game.
I like to compare it to level requirements for normal dungeons, back at launch normal dungeons was set to zone level and it made sense you could not enter vault of madness at level 12.
However this was changed first to scale to group leader, then one tamriel and we got the 2 dungeons but the old level requirements stay, for an level 12 its 50% chance of getting an DLC dungeon to everyone's enjoyment.

Racial passives survived beta only as they was ignored because of soft caps, then soft cap was removed.
However its lore you say, lore as in race description since Daggerfall, however if you look at how racial passives worked in Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion it was an starting bonus, you started with higher attributes and skills, this was nice but as you leveled up the bonus was reduced and as lower level skills leveled faster and you prioritized stuff you needed it was no difference at level 25. And that was single player games there you could set your own difficulty.
In an competitive multiplayer game you want to keep number of variables down, especial variables new players did not know then starting. why not add sex differences like it was in the classical TES games in CWC, males get an +5% stamina -4% magic, to balance ladies get +5% magic -4% stamina, nobody get nerfed so all is happy ???

And yes its mostly in players head, totally agree, Your dps will not jump to 40k with an race change to Altmer if doing HA with ice staff wearing heavy armor and all point into health, still its an problem created by incompetence.

On the gripping hand (grips tail) some problem is easy to solve: Dark Vader, requesting fire support on my position, yes turbo-laser at full power.

Too ugly ... I can't play it

The Khajiit race is the only race without an attribute bonus, give them health.

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

A lot of people don't realize that crit % becomes more valuable the less of it you have.

Here's a pile of math:

Say a Stamblade has Minor force, Hemorrhage & 15% Precise Strikes

Crit damage = 1.85 X Non Crit damage.

An old meta build could easily have 80% crit chance, the Khajiit passive lifts it to 88% chance.

The damage increase from adding 8% crit to a build that already has 80% crit chance = ((1.85*0.88+0.12)-(1.85*.8+.2))/(1.85*0.8+0.2) = 4.04%

The new meta has less crit chance, a Stamblade could have a 50% crit rating now.

The damage increase from adding 8% crit to a build that already has 50% crit chance = ((1.85*0.58+0.42)-(1.85*.5+.5))/(1.85*0.5+0.5) = 4.77%

The Khajiit passive contributes 0.7% more DPS to their build with this PVE meta than the last meta. The reason Redguards are slightly better after Morrowind is they can pull off a couple more skills overall while working within a tight buff window, but it's not because crits suddenly became worthless.

Its because Redguards have higher base damage...

Enslaved wrote: »

20% health regen into 6% max stamina would suffice.

They did that once, before all the crit nerfs, and all the PvPlayers complained that was boosting an already powerful Ganking build playstyle, so of course they reversed that change. Cause poor PvP.