pieratsos wrote: »

I can read just fine.

And btw you can get into PVE leaderboards that reward you with perfect weapons by doing vet mode which doesnt reward you with perfect weapons.

And yes i dont want BiS weapons to be rewarded from rewards of the worthy. For me, deserving/working for something actually means doing something good/hard and you get rewarded for it. Unlike you spending 10 minutes in cyro doesnt mean that you worked or you deserve BiS gear because of the stupid reasoning "its static requirements". And im prety happy that my standards about deserving BiS gear are not as low as yours.

Oh. Then I'm wrong in this part. I forgot it's like that. Then the solution is to remove them from there to make it fair. On the other hand, one can argue that it makes it easier to get those weapons - just complete vet without HM.Or what were you complaining about? That they are too easy to get?

Sigh. And you just said you can read and I was dumb enough to believe you. That was my whole point - it would be too easy to get it for rewards of the worthy. Then what are you arguing with? Remove perfect weapons from everywhere except for vet HM. Everything else will be easy in a month or two.

Artis wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Because vMA IS accessible to PVP players. Thats why. Accessibility and difficulty are not always the same thing.
Before you call people lazy you better read what they tell you. I literally told you that u can nerf those weapons as long you can acquire them by vMA, vDSA, vet trials so it can be accessible to all types of players. vMA and HM trials are not the same and no, it has nothing to do with the actual difficulty of the content. vMA could be 100 times harder than asylum HM and it would still be more accessible. vMA Is solo content, they can do it whenever they like and those that actually put in the work and can complete it should be rewarded.

I am not trying to create a false reality where PVP players cant get BiS weapons. You are the one living in the false reality where PVP players are doing hardcore raiding like PVE players.

And the issue with locking it behind PVP leaderboards isnt the skill (although i do agree with that statement). Its that you'd have to do PVP every single day to be able to get in there. Thats by definition inaccessible to all PVE players cause no one would do it. No matter how easy or hard it is.

Every dungeon is accessible to all types of players. The requirements are the same for everyone. Unless you can show me a pvp player's card that specifically says you can't go somewhere. I play PvP and I personally entered and completed every existing dungeon.

Solo vs group is a weak argument. Every player is in the same conditions and has to look for group. PvE players also can do vMA whenever they like and can't do trials whenever they like.

The issue with locking it behind pvp leader boards is that the requirements to get those rewards wouldn't be static. Inaccessible is not synonymous to no one would do it. No one would it = lazy or don't want it enough. If there is will, there is way.

pieratsos wrote: »

Gear locked behind PVP leaderboards should only be used in PVP. Gear locked behind PVE HM trials should only be used in PVE. Not because of difficulty. But because of accessibility.

No.

Competition can be deeper than that having rewards for pve/pvp rewarded for doing the counter parts.

If PVE players with dedicated raiding guilds that like PVE and only do PVE can find it hard to do HM trials and not whenever they like, imagine what its like for someone that isnt even a PVE player.

And btw if you can do "A" whenever you like, and you cant do "B" whenever you like then its obvious that "B" is not as accessible as "A".

This static requirements bs that you keep dragging is getting tiresome. So scrap the idea of putting it behind PVP leaderboards.

From now on you acquire BiS gear only as a reward from end of campaign rewards if you got 10 million AP during the campaign. Static requirments, accessible to everyone, no DLCs or other people can interfere with your chances. Makes sense according to you. Make it a poll and see what you get. You are probably going to break an all time record of the response "lol" in one thread. Even ZOS will probably bring LOL back just for your thread and then remove it again.

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

if people want to say something about the gear policy, especially about asylum weapons, then they should do that in the right thread about that. this thread was started to discuss only the 2h weapon and its ability.

No, this thread was started to nerf the normal weapon that is only good in PVP, and make it inaccessible to PVP players.

No this thread have nothing to do with making imperfect weapon inaccesible in PvP. You could still get them but imperfect version should be weaker from perfect one by around 20-30% not 7%. Also You dont know how good it'll be in PvE so I would reconsider that statement.

Making the difference between them so big only makes the perfected BiS. And the perfected one is inaccessible. Get it now?

No i dont know how it will be in PVE. It could be BiS in both PVP and PVE. Thats why i am not asking to lock it behind content that is inaccessible for PVE players. The question is why do you feel its ok to lock BiS PVP gear behind content that is inaccessible to PVP players?

1st of all who said it's PvP gear ? It's obtainable from PvE content and it can only be used in PvP but that doesnt make it PvP weapon. You dont know will that be good In PvE and there are certain bosses with long execute phases where it can actually be good.

2nd why this certain weapon have 7% difference between imperfected and perfected version when other have 25-50% difference ? It's unfair because this is one of more useful weapons of all Asylum ones.

I feel if there is 25-50% rule for every weapon then there shouldnt be exceptions. Why people would have to go for another of this weapons on HM but not in case of 2 hander. Also yes perfected weapons should be BiS as reward for effort of taking part in hardest contest. Lets be honest lowering ultimate gain in imperfected version down to 11 ulti is not end of the world and wouldnt make perfected version brainlesly OP and imperfected one trash but would ballance things. It's obvious PvP players will QQ about everything good they need to get from PvE. Similar thing is happening right now with maesltorm weapons changes.

If You want BiS then You should deserve it.

And yet again you completely ignore the question people ask and you repeat the same things again and again.

If i want BiS i should deserve it. I couldnt agree more. But for people to show that they deserve it, they need to have access to that content. It was explained about a million times so far. Which part do u still not understand?

Its both PVP and PVE weapon. I didnt say it wont be good in PVE. Read again. I said i dont know if it will be good in PVE. Thats why i am not asking to make it inaccessible for either PVE or PVP players. All players should have access.

Enough with the usual " PVP players QQ" and all the other bs and just answer the damn questions.
Why do you think its fine to lock BiS PVP gear behind content inaccessible to PVP players?
And do you think its right to lock PVE gear behind content inaccessible to PVE players like top 2% PVP leaderboards for example?

I think I answered Your question. If You dont see the answer it's Your problem. Comparing PvP leaderboards to trials is stupid because we all know that even casual players can have top scores in leaderboards if they'll zerg enough whole days. It's like comparing 1vX to Xv1. Both ends up killing people but 1st requires more skill.

Also why You're still saying "inaccesible for PvP players" ? Beeing PvP player doesnt mean veteran or Hard Mode in trials is inaccesible for You. It'll just take practice and skill. Beeing lazy PvP player means You'll propably QQ that Asylum imperfected 2h should be almosts same strong as Perfected one , because You're too lazy to get good and get perfected one.

You're trying to create false reality where PvP player cant get BiS weapon. In that case how is it possible so many PvP players have Maesltorm weapons ? Isnt that content also inaccesible for them ?

Because vMA IS accessible to PVP players. Thats why. Accessibility and difficulty are not always the same thing.
Before you call people lazy you better read what they tell you. I literally told you that u can nerf those weapons as long you can acquire them by vMA, vDSA, vet trials so it can be accessible to all types of players. vMA and HM trials are not the same and no, it has nothing to do with the actual difficulty of the content. vMA could be 100 times harder than asylum HM and it would still be more accessible. vMA Is solo content, they can do it whenever they like and those that actually put in the work and can complete it should be rewarded.

I am not trying to create a false reality where PVP players cant get BiS weapons. You are the one living in the false reality where PVP players are doing hardcore raiding like PVE players.

And the issue with locking it behind PVP leaderboards isnt the skill (although i do agree with that statement). Its that you'd have to do PVP every single day to be able to get in there. Thats by definition inaccessible to all PVE players cause no one would do it. No matter how easy or hard it is.

Gear locked behind PVP leaderboards should only be used in PVP. Gear locked behind PVE HM trials should only be used in PVE. Not because of difficulty. But because of accessibility.

1 simple question have You even tried new mini trial alerady or whole Your theories are basded on speculations ?

Also YES there are PvP players that are doing hard group game end content. Finding 12m group isnt that kind of an issue You just need to have proper guild which also isnt that kind of an issue. 12 people means it can take longer time to find group but it'll be also 12 weapons there so it's bigger chance to get what You want because someone can trade it with You plus retraiting will be released which means accesability of this weapons can be in fact better then accesability of vMA weapons in the past. It tooked people hundereds of runs to get BiS vMA wepoans when it fact now You'll be able to get strong weapons after 3-4 runs. Very inaccesible.

Yeah You would be force to PvP sooo much especially on this 7 days campaigns where You can just flip resources and be on leaderboards top.

It's players who decide where they'll use certain gear but best gear in each content should be get by completing harder versions of it , doesnt matter what will be later gear destination.

You do realise that speculations can be said about you too right? What if it takes hundreds of runs to complete HM by dedicated raiding guilds. What will it take for PVP players who are not even dedicated in PVE. And yes it can take longer time to find groups. But its not just any group. And the concept of time applies in PVP too. And no, exploiting ur way to leaderboards isnt what im talking about which i think was also fixed anw. Im talking about an actual 30 days campaign. And running from resource to resource all day flipping for weeks isnt something PVE players will do. No matter how easy it is.

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

if people want to say something about the gear policy, especially about asylum weapons, then they should do that in the right thread about that. this thread was started to discuss only the 2h weapon and its ability.

No, this thread was started to nerf the normal weapon that is only good in PVP, and make it inaccessible to PVP players.

No this thread have nothing to do with making imperfect weapon inaccesible in PvP. You could still get them but imperfect version should be weaker from perfect one by around 20-30% not 7%. Also You dont know how good it'll be in PvE so I would reconsider that statement.

Making the difference between them so big only makes the perfected BiS. And the perfected one is inaccessible. Get it now?

No i dont know how it will be in PVE. It could be BiS in both PVP and PVE. Thats why i am not asking to lock it behind content that is inaccessible for PVE players. The question is why do you feel its ok to lock BiS PVP gear behind content that is inaccessible to PVP players?

1st of all who said it's PvP gear ? It's obtainable from PvE content and it can only be used in PvP but that doesnt make it PvP weapon. You dont know will that be good In PvE and there are certain bosses with long execute phases where it can actually be good.

2nd why this certain weapon have 7% difference between imperfected and perfected version when other have 25-50% difference ? It's unfair because this is one of more useful weapons of all Asylum ones.

I feel if there is 25-50% rule for every weapon then there shouldnt be exceptions. Why people would have to go for another of this weapons on HM but not in case of 2 hander. Also yes perfected weapons should be BiS as reward for effort of taking part in hardest contest. Lets be honest lowering ultimate gain in imperfected version down to 11 ulti is not end of the world and wouldnt make perfected version brainlesly OP and imperfected one trash but would ballance things. It's obvious PvP players will QQ about everything good they need to get from PvE. Similar thing is happening right now with maesltorm weapons changes.

If You want BiS then You should deserve it.

And yet again you completely ignore the question people ask and you repeat the same things again and again.

If i want BiS i should deserve it. I couldnt agree more. But for people to show that they deserve it, they need to have access to that content. It was explained about a million times so far. Which part do u still not understand?

Its both PVP and PVE weapon. I didnt say it wont be good in PVE. Read again. I said i dont know if it will be good in PVE. Thats why i am not asking to make it inaccessible for either PVE or PVP players. All players should have access.

Enough with the usual " PVP players QQ" and all the other bs and just answer the damn questions.
Why do you think its fine to lock BiS PVP gear behind content inaccessible to PVP players?
And do you think its right to lock PVE gear behind content inaccessible to PVE players like top 2% PVP leaderboards for example?

I think I answered Your question. If You dont see the answer it's Your problem. Comparing PvP leaderboards to trials is stupid because we all know that even casual players can have top scores in leaderboards if they'll zerg enough whole days. It's like comparing 1vX to Xv1. Both ends up killing people but 1st requires more skill.

Also why You're still saying "inaccesible for PvP players" ? Beeing PvP player doesnt mean veteran or Hard Mode in trials is inaccesible for You. It'll just take practice and skill. Beeing lazy PvP player means You'll propably QQ that Asylum imperfected 2h should be almosts same strong as Perfected one , because You're too lazy to get good and get perfected one.

You're trying to create false reality where PvP player cant get BiS weapon. In that case how is it possible so many PvP players have Maesltorm weapons ? Isnt that content also inaccesible for them ?

Because vMA IS accessible to PVP players. Thats why. Accessibility and difficulty are not always the same thing.
Before you call people lazy you better read what they tell you. I literally told you that u can nerf those weapons as long you can acquire them by vMA, vDSA, vet trials so it can be accessible to all types of players. vMA and HM trials are not the same and no, it has nothing to do with the actual difficulty of the content. vMA could be 100 times harder than asylum HM and it would still be more accessible. vMA Is solo content, they can do it whenever they like and those that actually put in the work and can complete it should be rewarded.

I am not trying to create a false reality where PVP players cant get BiS weapons. You are the one living in the false reality where PVP players are doing hardcore raiding like PVE players.

And the issue with locking it behind PVP leaderboards isnt the skill (although i do agree with that statement). Its that you'd have to do PVP every single day to be able to get in there. Thats by definition inaccessible to all PVE players cause no one would do it. No matter how easy or hard it is.

Gear locked behind PVP leaderboards should only be used in PVP. Gear locked behind PVE HM trials should only be used in PVE. Not because of difficulty. But because of accessibility.

1 simple question have You even tried new mini trial alerady or whole Your theories are basded on speculations ?

Also YES there are PvP players that are doing hard group game end content. Finding 12m group isnt that kind of an issue You just need to have proper guild which also isnt that kind of an issue. 12 people means it can take longer time to find group but it'll be also 12 weapons there so it's bigger chance to get what You want because someone can trade it with You plus retraiting will be released which means accesability of this weapons can be in fact better then accesability of vMA weapons in the past. It tooked people hundereds of runs to get BiS vMA wepoans when it fact now You'll be able to get strong weapons after 3-4 runs. Very inaccesible.

Yeah You would be force to PvP sooo much especially on this 7 days campaigns where You can just flip resources and be on leaderboards top.

It's players who decide where they'll use certain gear but best gear in each content should be get by completing harder versions of it , doesnt matter what will be later gear destination.

You do realise that speculations can be said about you too right? What if it takes hundreds of runs to complete HM by dedicated raiding guilds. What will it take for PVP players who are not even dedicated in PVE. And yes it can take longer time to find groups. But its not just any group. And the concept of time applies in PVP too. And no, exploiting ur way to leaderboards isnt what im talking about which i think was also fixed anw. Im talking about an actual 30 days campaign. And running from resource to resource all day flipping for weeks isnt something PVE players will do. No matter how easy it is.

If You would read earlier I mentioned I am ok with perfected weapons having a chance to drop from veteran version which imo is decent not incredibly hard but requiring spome practice. It much better then 3-4 run on normal version and getting almost same good weapon ans the one that drops from Hard Mode.
If You're talking about specific campaign then I am saying about specific type of players dedicated to get better because they want get good gear.

pieratsos wrote: »

Good thats all i wanted to hear. That common sense is not ur thing.

The insult didn't help your point at all. The common sense is my thing, it's you being a drama queen. "Inaccessible"? what a joke.

pieratsos wrote: »

And im with you when you say those BiS weapons shouldnt be acquired so easily as just doing normal trials. It should require to work for it. But until they are accessible like vMA for example, normal weapons being on par with perfected weapons is a necessary evil to balance the fact that the combination accessibility and difficulty of HM makes the perfected weapons almost impossible to get for 99% of the players. Thats why they made them on par anw. Destro staff being different is the exception not the rule. And yes if they drop in vet mode then it will be much much better. Id much like a hard mode vMA that gives you tokens for getting those weapons and complete removal of normal weapons. Not just nerf. Easily accessible to everyone but f*cking hard and rewards only the best players.

No, that's unfair. Best players have to be rewarded.

Derra wrote: »

Sure we all have the same contitions if we´re ignoring that someone who can play from 6am to 11am has a much smaller playerpool to draw from and no preexisting guilds to apply to when he wants to run the content.
If that´s the same conditions as someone who can play from 6pm to 12pm every day - i don´t think anyone can help you.

It's not a problem. There are Australian players and guilds including top players. If one can't meet requirements - it's his problem and then he won't get every single item in game, plain and simple.

Derra wrote: »

Like i said. Having a requirement of 11 other players to even play content is a dynamic element to compete in the content as the playerpool is not a constant resource to draw from.

Saying you can just get different/new players for vetHM content is - as we both know - being ignorant at best.

We´ll probably never agree because for you 11 other players are somehow not a requirement to run content. Which just showcases that you´re absolutely unable to expand your horizon on the matter at hand beyond anything that applies to yourself.

Like I said, everyone is in the same conditions. THe requirement is still static - deal certain DPS, don't fail certain mechanics. These numbers will be the same tomorrow and next week. Unlike in PvP , where technically you can get into top 2% by killing just 1 player if there's only 2 of you in the campaign. Or you can be playing every day but if it happened so that there are other players playing even more - then you're out of luck. THAT's dynamic. Raids are static. The monsters are there and they are the same for everyone. Go and kill them.

Oh no, you are the one who only thinks about himself. I'm totally fine if I don't benefit from the system if that system is better for the game as a whole. You are the one trying to change the system around yourself.

Derra wrote: »

It does not make sense.

Because aquiring 10 million ap is dynamic in terms of: You need other players to kill.

You have a static number you need to achieve. However the means to achieve that number are subject to the dynamic resource other players represent.

Same with getting people to pve with. You need people to kill or to retake resources/keeps. Which is a dymamic requirement to meet a static goal.

Makes perfect sense. Maybe you need to refresh your education a bit.

No, Acquiring 10 mil AP technically doesn't require any players to kill. You can get that much capturing keeps and resources. It's static because you need 10 million AP period. That number doesn't change. Making it into top 2%, however, can require different amounts of AP on different weeks depending on what other players have. THAT is dynamic. Do you really not see the difference?

It's NOT the same getting people to pve with. Or if it is, then great, that's my point anyway. Because pvp leader board WAS NOT the same.

Either way - everyone is in the same conditions. If no one can find players to get 10 mil AP, then no one will have weapons - so no one is wrecking havoc. IF no one can find a raid - then no one is wrecking havoc. If only a select few got weapons - then again no havoc. Havoc is what we had, say, on battlegrounds when stamina builds would destroy everything - now that was havoc because it would happen a lot. A few people with weapons? You won't even notice.

Derra wrote: »

So when there are no players to retake keeps or kill - you can not make any more aps once you´ve taken all keeps and resources.

Tell me again how you´re not dependant on a dymamic resource to get those 10 million ap.

You´re not at the same conditions if at 6pm you have players to kill / trade resources keeps and at 6pm you don´t.
That´s the point.

There are players in all time zones. If I play at bad time - it's my problem, not game's problem. And it simply means I'll reach the static requirement slower, but I'll still reach it. So no issue here. Emperor has dynamic conditions AND players in different time zones have different populations, yet, I don't recall you saying anything against it. If I'm wrong, link the thread.

Derra wrote: »

The problem is you´re not realizing i´m not trying to change the system around myself.
If i really want or need it i´ll do it. Which will probably be the case if i ever loose a fight to someone with that weapon.

I´m trying to change how things are for people that are not in a position like me to be able to get such a weapon if they deem it neccessary - because i don´t think something that is as hard to obtain as a vetHM trial drop should be relevant in pvp.

Yeah no. I realize everything and the problem is you feeling that everyone is entitled to get everything without putting too much effort and people who put more effort than others don't deserve to be rewarded more. They tried it in different countries already, it doesn't work. That's why ESO servers aren't somewhere in eastern europe...

Why shouldn't it be relevant in PvP? It's an MMO with a complex world. And players who somehow manage to compete in different aspect should be rewarded more than players who play fewer aspects. I don't want fishing achievements to contribute to achievement score, too, but it does and if I ever want to be in top X% in achievements, then I need to be ready to do what other players are ready to do.

Derra wrote: »

I´m looking at it from the point of players i´m killing every day in cyro - and i deem it asinine that those people would be locked out from getting the best gear because i don´t think of them as unworthy plebs.

I could adapt your stance on the matter if i wanted to. I´m just convinced based on 16 years of playing almost any western mmo on the market that the current design decision regarding these weapons isn´t good for the game we´re playing and especially it´s pvp - because i know i´m the minority.

They aren't unworthy plebs. They just need to meet certain requirements just like everyone else. They will have their imperfect versions easy if they want. And what about players who don't sub/buy certain DLCs? Are they unworthy plebs? You don't seem to be against them not having certain gear - and they are the ONLY group for which content is inaccessible. Not wanting to put effort to find people to go with does not mean that content is inaccessible.

Feanor wrote: »

People are still discussing itemization with @Artis? The discussion here is like the one we had about vMA weapon RNG, token system, and that multiple times. It's no different here. I'd rather have strong unique weapons that can be obtained exclusively in PvP and offer strengths for PvP solely than having them tucked away in DLC PvE content.

I'd rather have both. The competition is deeper that way. But that's not what the argument is about. It's not about me or you or other few regular forum goers.

Derra wrote: »

Oh ironically if i remember right the intention was to make raiding gear pve focused and be a reward for players doing the trial.
That´s why they removed pvp relevant traits on those - they didn´t want the gear to be relevant in an activity where it could not be obtained or be aquired with gold.

Almost got it right. Yes, the intention is to lock gear behind content, so you can't get it that easy.

PvP relevant traits weren't removed. You can still use all the traits that are left in pvp. Not to mention that weapons+jewelry are immune to that. Or what trait do you suggest to remove from Asylum weapons?

Derra wrote: »

On everything else you´ve posted just:

I think there is no basis for the assumption of having an even playing field. The requirements may be static but the starting point to get there for these people is not. They´d have to put in expotentially more effort to get to the same result.
A static requirement isn´t static when the starting point isn´t.
Based on this i think every argument you´re making is flawed because you´re priviledged and can´t see that you are.

You´re unable/unwilling to understand it. So let it be. I won´t bother replying anymore because you´re not getting the point i´m making. No idea if it´s intentional or if you´re lacking the mental capacity. I don´t know which one is more favorable in that case. I´ll let you choose if you´re an I or an A.

The starting point is the least relevant factor. As long as the ceiling is the same. Because that's where competition happens. Just like in TES games we never cared about those +10 to heavy armor because in the end the cap is still the same.

In this case, the starting point is the same though. We all start at level 1. I'm privileged/?? ahahahhaa so you are one of those! I KNEW it, but didn't want to accuse anyone. Of course! That makes sense. And so you want hand outs and don't want to work like other people worked and they only reached what they reached cause of privilege anyway. I see, I see.

So your way is to diminish my effort and I'm just privileged. What about you then? Weren't you complaining you're only playing in mornings yet you got a lot more raids than me? So then my privilege doesn't matter.
I am privileged? Can't believe it. I spent literal YEARS to get into raiding, no one wanted to play with me. I spent tons of time to get into guilds that would let me get into groups to raid with. I only got into a static raiding group where my spot is more or less guaranteed (as in I'm invited to come regularly. a "core" group they call them on NA) this year. And it's still only group after all this time. And you're saying I'm privileged? Tusk off with that nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about. I couldn't even step inside Sanctum Ophidia for a while, while others where having fun there and I would just be left out even though I paid for it too, you know. I could get none of that end-game gear and I was just fine. And if I wasn't? I would try and do something, not ask for handouts and getting that gear without having to do content.

No, nothing makes my argument flawed, because it's not based on my experience at all. It's based on a simple truth - successful effort must be rewarded - and logic.

I am absolutely able and willing to understand it. And most of concepts in principle. The ones I can't have more math than you heard of, definitely not something you're saying here. Not sure you are in position to insult my mental capacity. But ok, if insults are fair game, let's change the tone.