PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Templar

technohic · October 2017

Well; I think if UC is to give at least damage if broke early and provided they make it unblockable "CC" and damage (seeing how the breakfree itself provides a built in block) that would be the only way I could make use out of it. For Total Dark; I like the idea of a HOT being applied to the Templar if broken early.

Minno · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Question, @Cinbri , @Joy_Division and everyone else:
- what do we do with total dark? I know Cinbri mentioned it's in a good spot, but I can't but feel it still needs some love.
- should total dark get a similar treatment as UC? Except with a different effect that's delayed? What about a strong HoT?

I feel like our talk on UC has overshadowed TD to the point where they may have missed our feedback on it.

I think Unstable Core has potential, though Cinbri's explanation of how easy it is to mitigate undermines it too much. Total Dark is entirely dependent on the target's cooperation to take any damage and that is something even unthinking NPCs manage to avoid so I cannot see why a Templar would use that morph in any content or instance the game has to offer.

Someone earlier in the thread unfavorably contrasted Eclipse with other class specific skills meant to defend them and I thought is was insightful. All the other class skills defend against every enemy and Eclipse only does against one ... maybe. Such a specialized ability by nature needs to be noticeably stronger than more versatile and generalized counterparts and Eclipse isn't.

Maybe TD could be a self buff that forces the enemy to decide if it should attack or wait out the duration? That would solve the "single target issue". But that requires cc immunity to be removed, and wrobel stated they will do no such thing. It's literally imprisoned by the design intent; which I consider a failure in design not application and nothing irks me more than ideas that can't progress because they are stuck behind a "wall".

I agree on your assessment that it's too much risk for reward. in fact there is no reward for running TD. At least UC will be granting some DMG and has potential to be a worthy skill that will see use in PvP (if they can fix the bugs and make the DMG unblockable).

Minno · October 2017

technohic wrote: »

Well; I think if UC is to give at least damage if broke early and provided they make it unblockable "CC" and damage (seeing how the breakfree itself provides a built in block) that would be the only way I could make use out of it. For Total Dark; I like the idea of a HOT being applied to the Templar if broken early.

I like the hot too. But I think the spell is starting to clash with it's design intent.

Joy mentioned before that the ability wants to be a utility spell but also be a soft cc but it cannot be both. I agree with this in that the enemy gaining cc immunity leads to more problems in functionality and it's consistent use.

Players will notice issues with eclipse, and if players cannot reliably increase their dps/survivability, the spell will be dropped in favor of options that will be more functional:
- In pve, you cannot use this ability on bosses or heavy mobs due to immune to cc. This creates an issue where players try to use it but nothing happens. If nothing happens, the spell will get dropped for abilities that can be cast on both bosses and move. Solution: drop cc immunity.
- in PvP it's single target, high cost, low DMG/heal tied to enemy using direct attacks, and it's blockable. Afterwards it grants cc immunity, but during that time the enemy can choose to attack or not attack or break free for no risk. Since there is no residual effect, the cc immunity granted removes your ability to hard cc your target and using the hard cc early denies you the chance to use the redirected DMG/heal. Solution: remove cc immunity.

As you can see both have issues with the cc immunity but nothing proposed solves the problems it has by being both a soft cc and DMG/heal. UC is the closest thus far to solving it's limitation, but it's still a couple of changes away before it can see moderate use in both pve/PvP.

To me it's a failure and a waste of employee billable hours; I would have redirected efforts of the team to rescrape or built upon the current live offerings.

Solariken · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Question, @Cinbri , @Joy_Division and everyone else:
- what do we do with total dark? I know Cinbri mentioned it's in a good spot, but I can't but feel it still needs some love.
- should total dark get a similar treatment as UC? Except with a different effect that's delayed? What about a strong HoT?

I feel like our talk on UC has overshadowed TD to the point where they may have missed our feedback on it.

I think Unstable Core has potential, though Cinbri's explanation of how easy it is to mitigate undermines it too much. Total Dark is entirely dependent on the target's cooperation to take any damage and that is something even unthinking NPCs manage to avoid so I cannot see why a Templar would use that morph in any content or instance the game has to offer.

Someone earlier in the thread unfavorably contrasted Eclipse with other class specific skills meant to defend them and I thought is was insightful. All the other class skills defend against every enemy and Eclipse only does against one ... maybe. Such a specialized ability by nature needs to be noticeably stronger than more versatile and generalized counterparts and Eclipse isn't.

Maybe TD could be a self buff that forces the enemy to decide if it should attack or wait out the duration? That would solve the "single target issue". But that requires cc immunity to be removed, and wrobel stated they will do no such thing. It's literally imprisoned by the design intent; which I consider a failure in design not application and nothing irks me more than ideas that can't progress because they are stuck behind a "wall".

I agree on your assessment that it's too much risk for reward. in fact there is no reward for running TD. At least UC will be granting some DMG and has potential to be a worthy skill that will see use in PvP (if they can fix the bugs and make the DMG unblockable).

You nailed it. Not only is it locked into the arbitrary framework of its original design, it's once again being tweaked without a single thought toward stamplar/tank/hybrid utility. I absolutely despise the false dichotomy of stamina/magicka in this game and how often the devs reinforce it.

This is a perfect opportunity to make the damned thing useful for every type of Templar while still costing magicka.

1) Make it deal damage as a % of the targets direct damage dealt.
2) Make Total Dark STEAL a % of all healing done to the target for the duration.
3) Make Unstable Core deal a % of the target's max health before mitigation, unblockable.

There. Everyone can use it.

Can we please keep in mind that full-magicka Templar is not the only build type? You guys are all very insightful, smart players but you seem to have the same tunnel-vision toward Templar that ZOS does sometimes

Minno · October 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Question, @Cinbri , @Joy_Division and everyone else:
- what do we do with total dark? I know Cinbri mentioned it's in a good spot, but I can't but feel it still needs some love.
- should total dark get a similar treatment as UC? Except with a different effect that's delayed? What about a strong HoT?

I feel like our talk on UC has overshadowed TD to the point where they may have missed our feedback on it.

I think Unstable Core has potential, though Cinbri's explanation of how easy it is to mitigate undermines it too much. Total Dark is entirely dependent on the target's cooperation to take any damage and that is something even unthinking NPCs manage to avoid so I cannot see why a Templar would use that morph in any content or instance the game has to offer.

Someone earlier in the thread unfavorably contrasted Eclipse with other class specific skills meant to defend them and I thought is was insightful. All the other class skills defend against every enemy and Eclipse only does against one ... maybe. Such a specialized ability by nature needs to be noticeably stronger than more versatile and generalized counterparts and Eclipse isn't.

Maybe TD could be a self buff that forces the enemy to decide if it should attack or wait out the duration? That would solve the "single target issue". But that requires cc immunity to be removed, and wrobel stated they will do no such thing. It's literally imprisoned by the design intent; which I consider a failure in design not application and nothing irks me more than ideas that can't progress because they are stuck behind a "wall".

I agree on your assessment that it's too much risk for reward. in fact there is no reward for running TD. At least UC will be granting some DMG and has potential to be a worthy skill that will see use in PvP (if they can fix the bugs and make the DMG unblockable).

You nailed it. Not only is it locked into the arbitrary framework of its original design, it's once again being tweaked without a single thought toward stamplar/tank/hybrid utility. I absolutely despise the false dichotomy of stamina/magicka in this game and how often the devs reinforce it.

This is a perfect opportunity to make the damned thing useful for every type of Templar while still costing magicka.

1) Make it deal damage as a % of the targets direct damage dealt.
2) Make Total Dark STEAL a % of all healing done to the target for the duration.
3) Make Unstable Core deal a % of the target's max health before mitigation, unblockable.

There. Everyone can use it.

Can we please keep in mind that full-magicka Templar is not the only build type? You guys are all very insightful, smart players but you seem to have the same tunnel-vision toward Templar that ZOS does sometimes

I am sorry for that; I do main magplars and as such it's what my knowledge is based on.

I'll elaborate on what you have given and try to give feedback on a few options on how to tackle this for all templars.

"1) Make it deal damage as a % of the targets direct damage dealt. ".
Two ideas, one with cc immunity in mind and the other without cc immunity.:
- Cc immunity version will "steal" a percentage of their total direct DMG on you and redirect it back. This way the cc immunity makes sense because you are taking away a funtional part of the enemy and in turn they should have a moment to breath to recover. Anything lower than 10% would not be worth the cc immunity however.
- non cc immunity, makes this a self buff. Anyone that targets you redirects the DMG back a flat amount or heals you for a flat amount. Total dark becomes stamina, UC becomes mag (I feel like stamina could use the extra heal while magplars need the DMG).

2) Make Total Dark STEAL a % of all healing done to the target for the duration.
-total dark should become stamina morph and a self buff that ignores the cc immunity. The heal could be based off your max stats so it's for everyone.

3) Make Unstable Core deal a % of the target's max health before mitigation, unblockable.
I don't like this; 10% off 21000 is 2100. After mitigation, it would be terrible for the cost. And it doesn't solve which Stam/mag build it would scale for.

M'Hael · October 2017

Destruent wrote: »

For tanks it would be nice if you introduce any HP-scaling heal....like DKs have...dragonblood is OP as f***, and is really THE ability making DK-tanks a lot more independent from healers than any other tank...

I agree with your idea, but what makes DK tanks more independent is the ability to use magicka to cast a 30% shield... that regens 5% stam... while never dropping block. No other class can trade one resource for another without dropping block (the shield is some extra-delicious frosting).

Elsterchen · October 2017

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Cinbri also another thought; what happens after you break free? If it applies the DMG from the time bomb, is there enough time to block? Or does it count it right after you break free forcing the DMG to apply before another action can take place?

If they don't break free and just block, then that is a problem because templars don't have an unblockable cc like everyone else just received in this pts patch to force the DMG to go through. Of course this reduces the flexibility and the consistency of the spell, since we have to assume the best players will use an immunity pot prior to engaging further reducing the consistency of this ability.

Every other class gets a way to reduce hits taken; Ball of Lightning (Sorcerer), Dragon Fire Scale (Dragonknight), Shimmering Shield (Warden), and Shadowy Disguise (Nightblade)...

And Templar gets... a targeted, high-cost, low-effectiveness, CC breakable non-CC...

Just LOL is all I have to say.

The pain we suffer due to the ability to purge debuffs with a hot, slot a ranged class execute, mag based gap closer thats undodgeable, access to a spamable undodgeable/unreflected DPS ability that also procs extra DMG, ranged major prophecy buff with a dot, 10% extra DMG on blocking targets, a cheap rune that gives both minor protection/vitality with major armor buffs and a powerful burst heal.

Everyone has access to a purge....

Our execute is broken, it doesnt scale correctly..

Worst/least reliable gap closer in the game....

That dps ability is a melee ranged channel...

Slotting prophecy is attainable by everyone by slotting magelight....

Great our damage buff is 10% more on blocking targets. Soo instead of my hard hitting ability doing 2k vs a target that blocks, it now does 2.2k. Yipeee.....

Ok rune is great, ill admitt that.

Templars heal is great but im not even gurateed to recieve the heal from it. Whenever i cast a heal with 2 or more people around, i have to double sometimes triple cast it.

So yeah try again...

100% agree + please do not forget that stamplars do not have acess to anything one would call "burst-heal"... you wouldn#t call a 3-4k heal (PVE!) ... = near to nothing in PVP... a powerfull heal, would you?

Destruent · October 2017

M'Hael wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

For tanks it would be nice if you introduce any HP-scaling heal....like DKs have...dragonblood is OP as f***, and is really THE ability making DK-tanks a lot more independent from healers than any other tank...

I agree with your idea, but what makes DK tanks more independent is the ability to use magicka to cast a 30% shield... that regens 5% stam... while never dropping block. No other class can trade one resource for another without dropping block (the shield is some extra-delicious frosting).

Believe me...no tank in PvE has sustainproblems...u can always do one or two heavy-attacks to get stam, but DKs are the only one who can heal theirselves...

LordSlif · October 2017

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to address a couple topics we’ve seen recently, and give you an idea of some things we’ll be iterating on. First, let’s chat about Unstable Core, which we want to make more appealing. In short, we’re looking at making the explode deal more damage, especially since this ability is pretty expensive to use. We’ve also seen some of you suggest that this ability should apply damage to CC-immune targets. However, this would allow you to circumvent the natural cooldown of the ability, so this isn’t something we’d likely implement.

Another piece of feedback we saw was that Solar Barrage should not be interruptable since it's a melee ranged ability. We agreed with this feedback, and actually made this change in the last PTS patch.

Lastly, we’ve seen some of you mention that the damage from Radiant Destruction and Biting Jabs appears to be incorrect. We’re digging into this, and will let you all if we need additional information.

Thanks to everyone for hopping on the PTS and testing out these changes! Please continue to post feedback as you’re able.

Pleaseeee think about empower

LordSlif · October 2017

The Templars have good snares, because of this they dnt have speed buffs... it is ok, this is correct, but u must to agree that they dnt have direct dmg (maybe 1 or 2 skills if they are on bar), so why templars have empower buff if it only works on direct dmg skills?
The problem is bigger than " why templars have empower buff?", i can undrestand this buff on dark flare (1sec cast) this skill has a high dmg so with more 20% dmg... super high dmg... what can i say about the new solar barrage a cast time DoT ability? Empower will not work on this skill and will not work on a bunch of others skills, so what is the point? A cast time ability with a useless buff? The idea of the new solar barrage is good now, but if u let empower on it... it will still be useless like before.
Eso has many buffs and debuffs. Cast abilities need be more strong because when u use it u get exposed and in this case more strong = better buff or debuff.

Suggestions:
Minor lifesteal
Minor or major defile like dark flare
Major sorcery
Major prophecy
Major heroism
Minor force

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

5. CP bugs - the worst class bugs, it should be first priority fix. And we cant ignore it anymore since there will be no no-CP bgs. Reported it in bug section but will duplicate here:
1. Sweeps - doesn't count as direct damage but as dot, so it buffed by Elem Expert and Thaumaturge. But than why does Ironclad count is as direct attack and does reduce damage from enemy sweeps in addition to Thickskinned and Elem Defender? Instead of fix Ironclad just make Sweeps to be threated as direct damage, it will help a lot to Templar dps, especially in pve.

No.
Puncturing Sweep is a DoT like any other channeled skill. They need to fix ironclad.

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2017

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

danno8 · October 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

After playing a Sorc for the last few months I can say one thing about Power Surge where it is greatly better than Sweeps; if you are stunned and you have put down any kind of DoT's or delayed damage, the heals from Power Surge keep ticking away. When you get stunned as a Templar those heals stop.

That's on top of a pretty big shield to help cover that health bar. When I get stunned on my Templar it feels like a critical moment, on my Sorc it feels much easier to ride it out.

LordSlif · October 2017

do not compare power surge with sweeps... different purposes

Kilandros · October 2017

LordSlif wrote: »

do not compare power surge with sweeps... different purposes

Different sweeps for different peeps, as they might say.

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2017

danno8 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

After playing a Sorc for the last few months I can say one thing about Power Surge where it is greatly better than Sweeps; if you are stunned and you have put down any kind of DoT's or delayed damage, the heals from Power Surge keep ticking away. When you get stunned as a Templar those heals stop.

That's on top of a pretty big shield to help cover that health bar. When I get stunned on my Templar it feels like a critical moment, on my Sorc it feels much easier to ride it out.

Break free and more sweeps. Also, Ritual of Retribution and Purifying light don't stop when stunned.

LordSlif · October 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

After playing a Sorc for the last few months I can say one thing about Power Surge where it is greatly better than Sweeps; if you are stunned and you have put down any kind of DoT's or delayed damage, the heals from Power Surge keep ticking away. When you get stunned as a Templar those heals stop.

That's on top of a pretty big shield to help cover that health bar. When I get stunned on my Templar it feels like a critical moment, on my Sorc it feels much easier to ride it out.

Break free and more sweeps. Also, Ritual of Retribution and Purifying light don't stop when stunned.

Yepp right, in my opinion the only problem with sweeps is the area, it has a small area, a few more meters would make a big difference

maxjapank · October 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

Melee has always been a Magicka Templar's strength, imo. Ritual of Retribution, Channeled Focus, Sweeps all require us to be in melee range. And to be on the offensive, we need to be jabbing. The lack of mobility outside of Mist has required us to play in melee range, and that seems to be what the devs wanted us to do. The whole defend our home thing.

But this is what has made the current Total Dark effective. It was viable against Magicka NBs and Sorcs. And it was good against any Stam that used a bow. And the unbreakable part was the key thing. Sure, an enemy player could stop attacking and just buff up or run away, but it allowed me to gap close to them and set down my "home" again. Being a "soft" cc also meant that I could stun them before the unbreakable part finished, too.

I am highly disappointed that this unbreakable part of Eclipse is being taken away. There needs to be something that makes "breaking free" more punishable. And there needs to be a cc immunity check so that I do not waste Magicka by casting the spell on someone who is cc immune. It's just silly to be casting something that costs Magicka that does absolutely nothing.

LordSlif · October 2017

LordSlif wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

After playing a Sorc for the last few months I can say one thing about Power Surge where it is greatly better than Sweeps; if you are stunned and you have put down any kind of DoT's or delayed damage, the heals from Power Surge keep ticking away. When you get stunned as a Templar those heals stop.

That's on top of a pretty big shield to help cover that health bar. When I get stunned on my Templar it feels like a critical moment, on my Sorc it feels much easier to ride it out.

Break free and more sweeps. Also, Ritual of Retribution and Purifying light don't stop when stunned.

Yepp right, in my opinion the only problem with sweeps is the area, it has a small area, a few more meters would make a big difference

People will say: "but lava whip has 8meters too"
I know it, but a instant cast ability is different from a channeled ability, is very easy walk through the templars and escape from part of the dmg

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2017

maxjapank wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

Melee has always been a Magicka Templar's strength, imo. Ritual of Retribution, Channeled Focus, Sweeps all require us to be in melee range. And to be on the offensive, we need to be jabbing. The lack of mobility outside of Mist has required us to play in melee range, and that seems to be what the devs wanted us to do. The whole defend our home thing.

But this is what has made the current Total Dark effective. It was viable against Magicka NBs and Sorcs. And it was good against any Stam that used a bow. And the unbreakable part was the key thing. Sure, an enemy player could stop attacking and just buff up or run away, but it allowed me to gap close to them and set down my "home" again. Being a "soft" cc also meant that I could stun them before the unbreakable part finished, too.

I am highly disappointed that this unbreakable part of Eclipse is being taken away. There needs to be something that makes "breaking free" more punishable. And there needs to be a cc immunity check so that I do not waste Magicka by casting the spell on someone who is cc immune. It's just silly to be casting something that costs Magicka that does absolutely nothing.

All agreed.

danno8 · October 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

After playing a Sorc for the last few months I can say one thing about Power Surge where it is greatly better than Sweeps; if you are stunned and you have put down any kind of DoT's or delayed damage, the heals from Power Surge keep ticking away. When you get stunned as a Templar those heals stop.

That's on top of a pretty big shield to help cover that health bar. When I get stunned on my Templar it feels like a critical moment, on my Sorc it feels much easier to ride it out.

Break free and more sweeps. Also, Ritual of Retribution and Purifying light don't stop when stunned.

Thanks for the advice

. I was just making a point that when I'm soloing Veteran dungeons, sometimes an ill timed stun will kill my Templar, whereas on my Sorc it's not such a big deal.

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2017

danno8 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

WeyounTM wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The problem is that templars have way more easy self-healing than Sorcerers get. Ritual of Retribution and Puncturing Sweep is almost all you need to solo world bosses and at least normal mode dungeons.

While both templar abilities have their upsides, they still are nowhere near close to what a Sorc can get away with. You only need to cast power surge and you will get a nice and juicy heal whenever you crit. And you can get that heal with any damage that actually crits...at a long range too. With Sweeps you always need to be near your target and are locked into a channel, while a Sorc can cast all kinds of abilities from a safe distance.
I am by no means a good player, maybe mediocre....but it was much easier for me to complete vMA with my sorc compared to my Templar.

The healing from Puncturing Sweep scales with amount of enemies though, and it starts nearly as good as the sorcerer Power Surge heal value. Just 2 enemies in the AoE makes the heal from Puncturing Sweep better, easily.
The templar also gets healing from Ritual of Retribution and potentially Radiant Glory and Purifying Light while also having instant heals that don't require a pet in Breath of Life.

Maybe you think it a disadvantage to be in melee range, but I prefer melee range since it keeps enemies in range of my AoEs while making it a lot easier to just walk out of cone attacks that need to be dodged from farther back. Templars have a lot of tools to survive in melee range as well with just a little bit of movement to keep enemies in front for Puncturing Sweep.

After playing a Sorc for the last few months I can say one thing about Power Surge where it is greatly better than Sweeps; if you are stunned and you have put down any kind of DoT's or delayed damage, the heals from Power Surge keep ticking away. When you get stunned as a Templar those heals stop.

That's on top of a pretty big shield to help cover that health bar. When I get stunned on my Templar it feels like a critical moment, on my Sorc it feels much easier to ride it out.

Break free and more sweeps. Also, Ritual of Retribution and Purifying light don't stop when stunned.

Thanks for the advice . I was just making a point that when I'm soloing Veteran dungeons, sometimes an ill timed stun will kill my Templar, whereas on my Sorc it's not such a big deal.

It's the opposite for me, but then I don't build for max damage like most. I build a bit more balanced with a little less health than max magicka. I guess the problem is I could never really use shields well enough with that short 6 second duration. I'm much better healing up damage.

Edit:
Typically in any game that has healing, heals tend to be more powerful than damage prevention anyway. They have to be to support a healer role.

GallantGuardian · October 2017

Tamplars need a reliable multi target cc that immobilizes

Templars need a reliable way to gain back resources

Templars need better defensive measures for tankplars

Please address devs

LordSlif · October 2017

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Tamplars need a reliable multi target cc that immobilizes

Templars need a reliable way to gain back resources

Templars need better defensive measures for tankplars

Please address devs

Pls we dnt wanna an op char. The problem is the no mobility and the easy way how people can go out of puncturing, as i said an expedition buff on the new solar barrage (cast time) is a good solution

GallantGuardian · October 2017

LordSlif wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Tamplars need a reliable multi target cc that immobilizes

Templars need a reliable way to gain back resources

Templars need better defensive measures for tankplars

Please address devs

Pls we dnt wanna an op char. The problem is the no mobility and the easy way how people can go out of puncturing, as i said an expedition buff on the new solar barrage (cast time) is a good solution

I'm not talking about dps ... why is everything constantly only looked at through dps eyes

I want to tank withbmy templar ... we just got done with an update to make it where everyone can be an effective healer regardless of class...

I want to tank ... templar pve tanks should be a thing with out relying on others to cc and resource manage ...

It's doable now but difficult to use non selfish set gear builds ...

A multi target immobilize cc isn't dk specific since other classes have one ... why can't templars ?

I want to tank on my templar and us templar abilities for more than just self heals I want it to help me with actually tanking

Cinbri · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Question, @Cinbri , @Joy_Division and everyone else:
- what do we do with total dark? I know Cinbri mentioned it's in a good spot, but I can't but feel it still needs some love.
- should total dark get a similar treatment as UC? Except with a different effect that's delayed? What about a strong HoT?

I feel like our talk on UC has overshadowed TD to the point where they may have missed our feedback on it.

Total Dark is in much better position that UC, just like it always was. And different mechanics allow to choose morphs that better fit your playstyle. TD don't have on-break effect but it has strong debuff effect that making enemy almost a no threat for Templar and by this forcing him to CC Break. I hope free cc immunity will be fixed to make skill more usefull, but even now I imagine in my bg matches what would happen if I used TD instead of toppling charge, and anywhere where I don't need mobility result would be much stronger, for example vs stamknight: he always permasnare and permablocking making it impossible to land your Toppling to CC him, but now with TD I can cast it on him and be like "how do you block this, huh?" and he permablock as long as he want but it wont save him from forcing to waste stamina on break free and if he wont do it all his attacks will be just moskitos bites that I can freely ignore even if he decides to land his super-omega-combo on me, and if he will continue attack while permablocking he will drain his own stamina anyway and for duration of debuff his stamina loss will be equal to stamina loss of CC Break. Toppling is hardly punishing enemy mobility when enemy CC beak immideately anyway, but TD simply will deal more damage that Charge coz it always happen at least 2-3 attacks before enemy realise that he is CCed (also coz bubble has rendering problems and in laggy fights it will be visible on screen only couple seconds later). And that CC that not just deal more damage that Charge but also grant survivability to Templar, and that especially will be good when you 1vX where your Charge or Aurora wont be very helpfull and overall unreliable but with TD you can apply undodgeable/unblockable debuff that enemy have to break, and just by experience it will always proc several times before enemy CC Break, transforming it into CC that also heal you, you can drop off block for its duration coz enemy wont hurt you hard enough. But if TD would restore your stamina instead of healing it would be even better, tho seems wont happen.
Also with slotting TD I could finally remorph my Toppling Charge into Explosive and transform it into gap-closer undodgeable AoE with undodgeable interrupt. That will be even stronger given that medium armor might become stronger than next update.
UC on other side don't have strong effect during debuff but effect on break free - more offensive morph. But currently it just so weak that I don't even think of morphing it. In theory it could serve as AoE+CC since its damage is equal to 1 tick of Solar Barrage, but unlike Barrage it cost much more and proc only once while solar bomb visual is misleading coz it while its radius looks big defacto it not 8m aoe.
Anyway having at least solo-target root would be much stronger, once again coz changes to armor. Doubt it will happen but if both morphs would apply root after expire woul make them much better even if like Petrify it have to get restricitons like shorter range (and as melee Templar I wouldn't mind of such restriction)
P.S.: on even more negative side with all side changes for new Templar builds it will be hard to find a spot for Eclipse simply coz there is too many good Templar skills nowdays and only 10 skillslots..

UppGRAYxDD · October 2017

Just remove the total dark skill and replace it with a 3.5 sec undodgeable unblockable stun like DK and sorc...solar barrage will still not get used so make it either a stam poison flare or an instant cast dark flare that deals less dmg with no empower...

NBrookus · October 2017

maxjapank wrote: »

It's just silly to be casting something that costs Magicka that does absolutely nothing.

Fossilize is the same; you just don't cast it if they are CC immune. Some of the visual indicators are pretty weak but the swirls indicating CC immunity are IMO really clear.

Minno · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Question, @Cinbri , @Joy_Division and everyone else:
- what do we do with total dark? I know Cinbri mentioned it's in a good spot, but I can't but feel it still needs some love.
- should total dark get a similar treatment as UC? Except with a different effect that's delayed? What about a strong HoT?

I feel like our talk on UC has overshadowed TD to the point where they may have missed our feedback on it.

Total Dark is in much better position that UC, just like it always was. And different mechanics allow to choose morphs that better fit your playstyle. TD don't have on-break effect but it has strong debuff effect that making enemy almost a no threat for Templar and by this forcing him to CC Break. I hope free cc immunity will be fixed to make skill more usefull, but even now I imagine in my bg matches what would happen if I used TD instead of toppling charge, and anywhere where I don't need mobility result would be much stronger, for example vs stamknight: he always permasnare and permablocking making it impossible to land your Toppling to CC him, but now with TD I can cast it on him and be like "how do you block this, huh?" and he permablock as long as he want but it wont save him from forcing to waste stamina on break free and if he wont do it all his attacks will be just moskitos bites that I can freely ignore even if he decides to land his super-omega-combo on me, and if he will continue attack while permablocking he will drain his own stamina anyway and for duration of debuff his stamina loss will be equal to stamina loss of CC Break. Toppling is hardly punishing enemy mobility when enemy CC beak immideately anyway, but TD simply will deal more damage that Charge coz it always happen at least 2-3 attacks before enemy realise that he is CCed (also coz bubble has rendering problems and in laggy fights it will be visible on screen only couple seconds later). And that CC that not just deal more damage that Charge but also grant survivability to Templar, and that especially will be good when you 1vX where your Charge or Aurora wont be very helpfull and overall unreliable but with TD you can apply undodgeable/unblockable debuff that enemy have to break, and just by experience it will always proc several times before enemy CC Break, transforming it into CC that also heal you, you can drop off block for its duration coz enemy wont hurt you hard enough. But if TD would restore your stamina instead of healing it would be even better, tho seems wont happen.
Also with slotting TD I could finally remorph my Toppling Charge into Explosive and transform it into gap-closer undodgeable AoE with undodgeable interrupt. That will be even stronger given that medium armor might become stronger than next update.
UC on other side don't have strong effect during debuff but effect on break free - more offensive morph. But currently it just so weak that I don't even think of morphing it. In theory it could serve as AoE+CC since its damage is equal to 1 tick of Solar Barrage, but unlike Barrage it cost much more and proc only once while solar bomb visual is misleading coz it while its radius looks big defacto it not 8m aoe.
Anyway having at least solo-target root would be much stronger, once again coz changes to armor. Doubt it will happen but if both morphs would apply root after expire woul make them much better even if like Petrify it have to get restricitons like shorter range (and as melee Templar I wouldn't mind of such restriction)
P.S.: on even more negative side with all side changes for new Templar builds it will be hard to find a spot for Eclipse simply coz there is too many good Templar skills nowdays and only 10 skillslots..

Thanks for your feedback!

I always thought explosive charge was the superior morph due to the fact it does 7k undodgeable DMG before mitigation+battlespirit but also can proc burning light adding another 5k.

TD could root the enemy, but I'm worried that will only help you for shutting down ranged builds or Stam builds gap closing.

TD could add a buff to you as soon as you cast it. Mobility speed, minor armor buffs, etc. Something to help offset that the cc immunity is going to ruin the uptime on this ability. And since it will not work on bosses in pve, it safe to say PvP has strict authority on how this morph is designed. As @Solariken said, it could be a morph that returns a percentage based on your target's DMG and then heals you. This way it's a defensive skill for both Stam/mag but mag can use the heal reliably but at least the DMG portion can help stamplars gain a little defense due to the loss of a burst heal.

maxjapank · October 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

It's just silly to be casting something that costs Magicka that does absolutely nothing.

Fossilize is the same; you just don't cast it if they are CC immune. Some of the visual indicators are pretty weak but the swirls indicating CC immunity are IMO really clear.

Total dark does dmg at the end on live. And you're still missing the point of why Total Dark is good as is now. Many have though.