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Damage Shields

Zophix
Zophix
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Why do damage shields still give 100% critical resistance? I'm not referring to only sorcs here either...
I'm just curious why it's needed.
Edited by Zophix on September 30, 2017 12:41AM
  • CyrusArya
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    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    Yup. This is further compounded by the fact that shields cannot critically strike. Therefore taking irregular crit spikes while not being able to crit themselves would make shielding dynamics mathematically inconsistent in terms of balance. Imagine if heals couldn't crit for example and think about the ramifications that would have in any fight. Not exactly rocket science.
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  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    This has been held up as the end all be all of why we can’t have crit on shields but get a friend hit them with a DoT and let it expire let them heal back to full health and then do it again with a shield up the damage is way lower.

    With shields having no resistance you would think that they took more damage but I have tested this personal with my stamina build on a mage friend the damage reduction is strong.
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  • idk
    idk
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    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    This has been held up as the end all be all of why we can’t have crit on shields but get a friend hit them with a DoT and let it expire let them heal back to full health and then do it again with a shield up the damage is way lower.

    With shields having no resistance you would think that they took more damage but I have tested this personal with my stamina build on a mage friend the damage reduction is strong.

    My guess is the testing was not done on a heavy resistance build for starters. It is also probably not the justification. Read just above your post. Shields cannot crit. Heals can.
  • xiZeroPointix
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    no resistances, non critable. Its almost like adding 12k to your health for 6 seconds. When struck...the damage mitigation reduces to just tooltip damage of your weapon since you cant apply status efects to sheilds or dots such as bleed. Striking a shield will be just base damage without very many damage modifiers because the game doesnt see it as a target, therefore the regular damage mechanics are ignored. You are limited when a target is shielded. With current stamina builds tho a sheild will onlt mitigate 1 maybe 2 attacks before being depleted. Rarely do shields actually remain for the full duration. Crit modifiers along with other forms of damage modifiers are only applied to targets that are recognized by the game. Sheilds are designed in a way that it is not seen as an individual target like dungeon monsters or other players. But shields also do not mitigate all damage and the shielded target can and does recieve damage. As long as the shield is up the player will recieve on ocassion non critable base damage..the same way the shield does.
  • Derra
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    no resistances, non critable. Its almost like adding 12k to your health for 6 seconds. When struck...the damage mitigation reduces to just tooltip damage of your weapon since you cant apply status efects to sheilds or dots such as bleed. Striking a shield will be just base damage without very many damage modifiers because the game doesnt see it as a target, therefore the regular damage mechanics are ignored. You are limited when a target is shielded. With current stamina builds tho a sheild will onlt mitigate 1 maybe 2 attacks before being depleted. Rarely do shields actually remain for the full duration. Crit modifiers along with other forms of damage modifiers are only applied to targets that are recognized by the game. Sheilds are designed in a way that it is not seen as an individual target like dungeon monsters or other players. But shields also do not mitigate all damage and the shielded target can and does recieve damage. As long as the shield is up the player will recieve on ocassion non critable base damage..the same way the shield does.

    You can apply bleeds on shields.
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  • xiZeroPointix
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    Hmm learn sonething new everyday...that means something broken
  • Kilandros
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    Yup. This is further compounded by the fact that shields cannot critically strike. Therefore taking irregular crit spikes while not being able to crit themselves would make shielding dynamics mathematically inconsistent in terms of balance. Imagine if heals couldn't crit for example and think about the ramifications that would have in any fight. Not exactly rocket science.

    Dragon's Blood only recently became able to to crit heal after nearly 3 years. Consistency has never been this game's strong suit. Careful when tossing that term around.
    Edited by Kilandros on September 30, 2017 1:37PM
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    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

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  • Derra
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    Yup. This is further compounded by the fact that shields cannot critically strike. Therefore taking irregular crit spikes while not being able to crit themselves would make shielding dynamics mathematically inconsistent in terms of balance. Imagine if heals couldn't crit for example and think about the ramifications that would have in any fight. Not exactly rocket science.

    Dragon's Blood only recently became able to to crit heal after nearly 3 years. Consistency has never been this game's strong suit. Careful when tossing that term around.

    It got changed in the right direction though?

    Why would you want to go backwards.
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  • Kilandros
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    Derra wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    Yup. This is further compounded by the fact that shields cannot critically strike. Therefore taking irregular crit spikes while not being able to crit themselves would make shielding dynamics mathematically inconsistent in terms of balance. Imagine if heals couldn't crit for example and think about the ramifications that would have in any fight. Not exactly rocket science.

    Dragon's Blood only recently became able to to crit heal after nearly 3 years. Consistency has never been this game's strong suit. Careful when tossing that term around.

    It got changed in the right direction though?

    Why would you want to go backwards.

    Not even remotely close to what I said. All I'm saying is be careful with your comparisons. This game doesn't have a good track record of things working the way a reasonable MMO player would expect them to work.
    Edited by Kilandros on September 30, 2017 1:48PM
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    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Joy_Division
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    Because it gives arrogant sorcerers a false sense of security that they can get away with wearing all divines/infused on their armor.


  • ak_pvp
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    Shields take unresisted damage. Which is already quite high. If that unresisted high damage crits, you'll be seeing onehits to shields. Making them useless.

    Not happening.
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  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Shields take unresisted damage. Which is already quite high. If that unresisted high damage crits, you'll be seeing onehits to shields. Making them useless.

    Not happening.

    Unresisted Damage without damage modification so shields take less damage then a normal attack unless you have no damage buffs.
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  • ak_pvp
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Shields take unresisted damage. Which is already quite high. If that unresisted high damage crits, you'll be seeing onehits to shields. Making them useless.

    Not happening.

    Unresisted Damage without damage modification so shields take less damage then a normal attack unless you have no damage buffs.

    Do you mean the immune to status effect part. Because yeah, than needs to go.
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  • Vapirko
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    Perhaps dots should go through shields and direct damage is absorbed? Something like that.
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Perhaps dots should go through shields and direct damage is absorbed? Something like that.

    I don’t understand how you can have a shield outside your body that stop DoTs on your body. This makes no sense.
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  • DDuke
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    Because it gives you 0 armor and spell resistance. :smile:

    Well, it's not like that unresisted damage amounts to much - most of the 5/1/1 light armor builds (the ones that actually use dmg shields) get around 15% mitigation, where as a dmg shield can mitigate up to around 75% (depending on CP setup & class passives) crit damage.

    E.g. 50% crit & 75% crit dmg build is dealing dmg to you.

    Casting shield makes you take 15% more (assuming there's no buffs/debuffs/CPs that would affect mitigation), but you'd also take an average 37.5% less damage by not taking crits. Which is better? You tell me.

    Of course this varies a lot depending on whom you're fighting, but it takes a lot for shield to actually make you take more damage than you would without it, especially considering the following factors:
    • Dmg shield builds typically don't run much as much Impen as other builds, since it's practically a dead stat when your shield is up (which benefits more from Infused on large pieces for example).
    • You won't have points to spare for Resistant, as those points are going for Bastion.


    In my opinion, they should just increase shield strengths slightly & make crits count on them - this would also make crit a more desirable stat in PvP (which it currently isn't).
    Edited by DDuke on September 30, 2017 9:14PM
  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
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    Yeah, I don't main a sorc or mage blade, but if you could crit shields they would melt. Sure, i think the shield stacking is a bit extreme but without it light armor targets are hot butter. honestly, if they wanted to change anything, they should make it so if you already have a shield up, casting any other shields other than the same shield skill again, costs more. You could still shield stack, it just would come at a cost.
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  • xiZeroPointix
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    You can apply status effects through the shield to the player, but shields cannot take on the effect itself.The way the shields work is the system will check if your shielded before you take on any damage whatsoever.Hardned ward for example will mitigate all damage even dots and status effects that were applied before you put your shield up. They will take any and all types of damage mechanics. You can even sheild through taking your own health such as equillibrium from the mages skill line. No damage modifiers are applied to sheilds just your base damage stats..weapon damage self buffs and tooltip damage. Crit modifiers and other sources of damage modification are completely ignored.
  • WuffyCerulei
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    It's just player damage shields that cannot be critically hit in pvp. In pve, NPC damage shields can't be critically damaged either.
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  • Juhasow
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    DDuke wrote: »

    Well, it's not like that unresisted damage amounts to much - most of the 5/1/1 light armor builds (the ones that actually use dmg shields) get around 15% mitigation, where as a dmg shield can mitigate up to around 75% (depending on CP setup & class passives) crit damage.

    E.g. 50% crit & 75% crit dmg build is dealing dmg to you.

    Casting shield makes you take 15% more (assuming there's no buffs/debuffs/CPs that would affect mitigation), but you'd also take an average 37.5% less damage by not taking crits. Which is better? You tell me.

    Your math is wrong here @DDuke. Lets make simple test and say we're fighting 50% crit chance 75% crit dmg enemie and we have 15% dmg mitigation from armor. Lets consider taking 10 hits each for 1k not mitigated dealt to shields and 850 with 15% armor mitigation dealt to us without shields

    Dmg taken on armor
    5 x 850 + 5 x 1487,5 = 11687,5
    Dmg taken on shields
    10 x 1000 = 10000
    If dmg on shields could crit
    5 x 1000 + 5 x 1750 = 13 750

    So You take around 17% less dmg on shields then You would take on armor and You would take around 18% more dmg on shields if dmg on them could crit.If enemie would have 40% crit which is closer to current average value then it would be around 10%.
    Edited by Juhasow on October 1, 2017 12:44AM
  • DDuke
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Well, it's not like that unresisted damage amounts to much - most of the 5/1/1 light armor builds (the ones that actually use dmg shields) get around 15% mitigation, where as a dmg shield can mitigate up to around 75% (depending on CP setup & class passives) crit damage.

    E.g. 50% crit & 75% crit dmg build is dealing dmg to you.

    Casting shield makes you take 15% more (assuming there's no buffs/debuffs/CPs that would affect mitigation), but you'd also take an average 37.5% less damage by not taking crits. Which is better? You tell me.

    Your math is wrong here @DDuke . Lets make simple test and say we're fighting 50% crit chance 75% crit dmg enemie and we have 15% dmg mitigation from armor. Lets consider taking 10 hits each for 1k not mitigated dealt to shields and 850 with 15% armor mitigation dealt to us without shields

    Dmg taken on armor
    5 x 850 + 5 x 1487,5 = 11687,5
    Dmg taken on shields
    10 x 1000 = 10000


    So You take around 17% less dmg on shields then You would take on armor agaisnt 50% crit chance enemie which is not so often seen lately. If enemie would have 40% crit which is closer to current average value then it would be around 10%.

    Ah yes, forgot to take into account how mitigation affects the crit dmg. But still, as you can see shields result in much less (16.875%) dmg taken in that example.

    To be honest, it's really difficult to determine by how much shields outperform armor mitigation in terms of dmg taken reduced - different penetration values, crit chances, crit modifiers etc.

    With 40% crit chance & 75% modifier, you'd still take 11.05% more dmg without shield (using your scenario of 10 hits):
    6 x 850 + 4 x 1487.5 = 11 050
    10 x 1000 = 10 000
    Edited by DDuke on October 1, 2017 12:38AM
  • IxSTALKERxI
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    Also keep in mind like @CyrusArya mentioned, Shields don't crit. So you can kind of think of them like a burst heal that doesn't crit.

    Also despite crit not being as good dmg wise against shields - crit is still an important stat for self healing especially in CP as you can increase your crit healing quite a bit.

    I personally don't have a problem with damage shields - if you've ever fought heavily outnumbered on a magicka build you'd know how poorly they scale outnumbered as a defensive mechanic compared to dodge roll or blocking. Also because they require active casting, it can be easy to die when hit with CC, and it also uses up a global cooldown on staying alive instead of going on the offensive etc.

    But yeah, I've played both magicka and stamina and I think shields are quite balanced.
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  • Juhasow
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Well, it's not like that unresisted damage amounts to much - most of the 5/1/1 light armor builds (the ones that actually use dmg shields) get around 15% mitigation, where as a dmg shield can mitigate up to around 75% (depending on CP setup & class passives) crit damage.

    E.g. 50% crit & 75% crit dmg build is dealing dmg to you.

    Casting shield makes you take 15% more (assuming there's no buffs/debuffs/CPs that would affect mitigation), but you'd also take an average 37.5% less damage by not taking crits. Which is better? You tell me.

    Your math is wrong here @DDuke . Lets make simple test and say we're fighting 50% crit chance 75% crit dmg enemie and we have 15% dmg mitigation from armor. Lets consider taking 10 hits each for 1k not mitigated dealt to shields and 850 with 15% armor mitigation dealt to us without shields

    Dmg taken on armor
    5 x 850 + 5 x 1487,5 = 11687,5
    Dmg taken on shields
    10 x 1000 = 10000


    So You take around 17% less dmg on shields then You would take on armor agaisnt 50% crit chance enemie which is not so often seen lately. If enemie would have 40% crit which is closer to current average value then it would be around 10%.

    Ah yes, forgot to take into account how mitigation affects the crit dmg. But still, as you can see shields result in much less (16.875%) dmg taken in that example.

    To be honest, it's really difficult to determine by how much shields outperform armor mitigation in terms of dmg taken reduced - different penetration values, crit chances, crit modifiers etc.

    With 40% crit chance & 75% modifier, you'd still take 11.05% more dmg without shield (using your scenario of 10 hits):
    6 x 850 + 4 x 1487.5 = 11 050
    10 x 1000 = 10 000

    I updated my main post to add fact that if dmg on shields could crit You would take 18% more dmg on shields then on armor which could cause spending resources on shields that'll end up beeing bursted down anyway.
    Edited by Juhasow on October 1, 2017 12:47AM
  • DDuke
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    Also keep in mind like @CyrusArya mentioned, Shields don't crit. So you can kind of think of them like a burst heal that doesn't crit.

    Also despite crit not being as good dmg wise against shields - crit is still an important stat for self healing especially in CP as you can increase your crit healing quite a bit.

    I personally don't have a problem with damage shields - if you've ever fought heavily outnumbered on a magicka build you'd know how poorly they scale outnumbered as a defensive mechanic compared to dodge roll or blocking. Also because they require active casting, it can be easy to die when hit with CC, and it also uses up a global cooldown on staying alive instead of going on the offensive etc.

    But yeah, I've played both magicka and stamina and I think shields are quite balanced.

    All true, I don't really see a problem with them balance wise at the moment - but they still kind of limit other players build options in PvP (essentially making crit an almost worthless set bonus when it comes to offense).

    I don't see why that has to be - ZOS could just increase the shield values accordingly. Perhaps even buff medium in the process by consequently making Dexterity a more useful passive.
    Juhasow wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Well, it's not like that unresisted damage amounts to much - most of the 5/1/1 light armor builds (the ones that actually use dmg shields) get around 15% mitigation, where as a dmg shield can mitigate up to around 75% (depending on CP setup & class passives) crit damage.

    E.g. 50% crit & 75% crit dmg build is dealing dmg to you.

    Casting shield makes you take 15% more (assuming there's no buffs/debuffs/CPs that would affect mitigation), but you'd also take an average 37.5% less damage by not taking crits. Which is better? You tell me.

    Your math is wrong here @DDuke . Lets make simple test and say we're fighting 50% crit chance 75% crit dmg enemie and we have 15% dmg mitigation from armor. Lets consider taking 10 hits each for 1k not mitigated dealt to shields and 850 with 15% armor mitigation dealt to us without shields

    Dmg taken on armor
    5 x 850 + 5 x 1487,5 = 11687,5
    Dmg taken on shields
    10 x 1000 = 10000


    So You take around 17% less dmg on shields then You would take on armor agaisnt 50% crit chance enemie which is not so often seen lately. If enemie would have 40% crit which is closer to current average value then it would be around 10%.

    Ah yes, forgot to take into account how mitigation affects the crit dmg. But still, as you can see shields result in much less (16.875%) dmg taken in that example.

    To be honest, it's really difficult to determine by how much shields outperform armor mitigation in terms of dmg taken reduced - different penetration values, crit chances, crit modifiers etc.

    With 40% crit chance & 75% modifier, you'd still take 11.05% more dmg without shield (using your scenario of 10 hits):
    6 x 850 + 4 x 1487.5 = 11 050
    10 x 1000 = 10 000

    I updated my main post to add fact that if dmg on shields could crit You would take 18% more dmg on shields then on armor which could cause spending resources on shields that'll end up beeing bursted down anyway.

    I see. That's a big if though, and precisely why ZOS would have to update shield values to reflect them being crittable.
  • SirMewser
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    Zophix wrote: »
    Why do damage shields still give 100% critical resistance? I'm not referring to only sorcs here either...
    I'm just curious why it's needed.

    As long as damage shields; have 0 resistance, oblivion damage exists, battle spirit nerfs shields, and the duration nerf isn't reverted...

    It's a bit silly to ask why barriers can't be critically damaged when you can otherwise remove the skills from the game, because that is what you're basically suggestion to happen.
    Edited by SirMewser on October 1, 2017 3:22AM
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