Joy_Division wrote: »

The more I think about Eclipse, the more I think it doesn't work because it falls between two stools.

Is it a CC or is it a spell meant to protect the templar? It tries to do both and doesn't do either well enough. Although I think the skill should be totally reworked to provide a unique debuff so as to differentiate the classes more, make templar tanks have something that the prototypical DK tank can't offer, and just to make the "house" defensive concept more a reality, this is what I how would recommend ZoS change it.

• Both morphs do damage when the spell is CC broke. Make the target's decision more interesting rather than "Oh, I'm eclipsed, let me just CC break." This is the way the old Eclipse worked and templars still didn't use it because it was perceived as being too weak.
• The skills are too expensive.
• The Unstable Core morph, in addition to doing more damage, should hit the opponent with a lingering debuff of sorts if the spell is CC broke.
• The Total Dark morph should provide the templar with a buff if the spell is CC broke.

This would help alleviate the those situations when the caster feels they got nothing out of the spell because it was CC broke and makes the cost more reflective of the benefit. This skill is not THAT good and there is no reason for it to cost THAT much.

I would like guaranteed damage as well if they have to keep the CC breaking.

Also, it needs to work on bosses for both a defensive benefit and damage at the same time or it will still be replaced by skills that do both better.
It just needs to work on bosses period. Skills that just don't work on many enemies, just don't work.

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Yes, we do have everything everyone else has....except we need to use potions and gear and non-class skills everyone else has access to as an "alternative" to their skills that give them and EXCEPT those other classes often get those buffs on actually useful skills that aren't ultimates AND sometimes even passives.

You can't, just can't, compare one class to another by using non-class tools as those are available to all for the same benefit and disadvantages and not truly comparing the classes themselves.
That's like saying I'm as good as the best NFL defensive lineman because I have access to an exoskeletal robot suit that makes me stronger. You're adding things to the equation to balance an unbalanced base equation, which doesn't really work when you try to simplify the equation to a simple "law" that applies to all situations.

In my opinion, the solar barrage still wont be used. In pve, its a fine opening for trashfights. Buffing, solar barrage, elemental blockade, etc. the points is, it only serves an opening option, since infight, nobody will use that because of its casttime and the 6 seconds duration, which probably us odd for a good rotation. In singletarget fights nobody will use it, so why even slotting, if you can only use it once in a one minute trashmob fight?
For pvp its pretty the same reason. We run into an enemy, cast it like inferno from dk, buff up and fight. But nobody would reapply that skill in a real fight, since the cast without no immediate damage leaves the templar very vulnerable to the burst of an enemy. every enemy will see, that there are like 2 seconds in which, they wont be damaged, so lets land some hard hits on the templar meanwhile, he cant even heal in that second casting. Only way this skill can be used is in ballgroups.
There were already quite some ideas about this morph, like shards, that immobalize and stuff. How about you revise that skill.

To the eclipse...yes its worth nothing in pve, since bosses arent affected by it. Make total dark applicable on bosses and templar tanks have some nice option to inflict some dps on bosses while they heal themselves while tanking.

For pvp it still looks bad in most situations. Most people know, if their attacks are dots or direct damage, so either way they break it, get cc immunity and just go ahead as if nothing happened. Others will just ignore it, since they mainly put out dots, so why bothering. So it will work on magsorcs and magblades, if they have no stamina to break it...great. Or as mentioned permablocking dks. But actually its still just not worth it for the high costs. A rework is needed, please add some debuff if the enemy breaks free. And probably some benefit like magicka return, if it lasts the whole duration. And add giving back the costs of it, if casted on a immune enemy, just like dks get their ressources back from chains on immune enemies.

Elsterchen wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Hmm the new eclipse could actually be more dangerous then you think in pvp.

Has anyone tested what constitutes direct damage yet?

For example

Does procs or enchants or bash count toward that?

It was kind of usefull ... funny, when it returned the damage of cristal frags or any other hard hitting single target damage spell/projectle back to the caster. The new version will make 4k magic damage ... well or whatever is left of that after battle spirit and migitation in PVP. Yet this spell grants CC immunity to enemy, the effect can be avoided by break free as well as purge. Gimme one reason to slot a skill that will dot my enemy for 500-1k damage in PVP, that costs alot, gives CC immunity to my enemy and is clunky to play with. Seriously thats junk. Even in PVE its kind of worthless - and NPCs usually neither purge or break free!

If it reflected the damage of the attack that was used while Eclipsed, I would use it. It would be a good Dizzying Swing punishment and would be fine granting CC immunity to those observant enough to break it before spamming. The damage is too low to make it worthwhile in this state.

I was debating popping in to PTS to test these since they want us to do that, but it really comes down to not having a situation I want to use these on that I could see providing any value to my build over having something else take up the slot.

1. Solar Barrage: Now uninterruptible being in melee range, and that's needed but still for 1 second cast then 2 second delay before damage to pulse. Why wouldn't I just use blazing spear that gives me instant damage and immediate return on DOTs in PvE. In PvP, barrage can stay with me so the target cant just walk out of it, but at the same time; my only hard CC also pushes a target away. I can't CC and burst with this, I just would have to hump them to keep the damage hitting. Its like empowering sweeps which is an ultimate but has a cast and long delay with no instant damage, and hits for about a fraction of the damage. Of course, an ultimate is an ultimate but we are talking a cheap ultimate that as is, is not widely used even though it is far superior for damage.

Give us a major expedition buff while active or root immunity briefly (lord knows if we use this, we want to use jabs as well, and that would help immensly) or something that adds value to where I know, I would want to possibly have it on my bar

2. Eclipse: Its just neither a good damage/buff/debuff/heal nor is it a decent CC. The ability is trying to be too many things at once and failing to be decent at any one thing. Poor mans reflect that gives CC immunity. I don't even know the point any more.

Only suggestion I can make, to go along with many to fall on def ears; is make is similar to an ability I remember in SWG called stasis with a little twist for ESO. Target is silenced in the bubble and can not be damaged or healed (at least at base form). Morphs could be one that then does debuffs/damages the target after it expires. The other morph can be a friendly target that then heals them at expiration. They can still move while in it. CC immunity of course

In short; I need a reason to use these. Whether they are optimal or not could be left for testing but theres no use me testing these if I don't find them useful.

Minno wrote: »

The buffs listed alone don't paint the full picture.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Before we list buffs that templars supposedly have, let's not forget they are dependent on morph choices (and thus not all templars have them) and other classes can get them too.

I don't have minor protection. But my Warden does.

Well yes I can get major sorcery from a pot and I do get minor sorcery from casting a Dawn Wrath Skill. By the other 4 classes get major sorcery without using a pot and get minor sorcery simply by being grouped with me.

Yes, I can get major protection on our healing ultimate. So can a NB on Veil, which also grants that to allies. And a Warden can get that on an ultimate that's actually pretty good.

I'm not at all impressed by the buffs accessible to templars, especially when major mending was just stripped away (without any re-compensatory unnerfing of skills such as Sweeps whose nerfs were justified because we had major mending) and the major resolve/ward skill is tied to the staying in the same spot when the developers have consciously developed PvE content so we can't do that.

Those classes, while they don't need to slot morphs to get SD, they do have to slot their class skills (sorcs) while nbs can't get major crit without running outside sources. They also have pigeonholed themselves into certain builds but can't escape them because they don't have the flexibility that Templars have with their bar setups. Templars have more flexibility in the buffs, if I don't want to use degeneration I can use a pot. I can use heavy armor and do without restoring focus because you'll have the same healing received buff so you can run channeled focus for extra Regen to help with block with frost staff. You can run ele drain or restoring aura for the same minor mag drain; one will hit all enemies while the other gives a significant armor debuff. And our restoration skill line gives us the option to do with another weapon besides resto staff; and vitality pots gives us back a major healing buff we lost so you can slot swords which will buff your burning light proc while using destro staff backbar for mag return/support. Other mag classes that have their own way to increase SD have to slot resto staff for their heals and cannot purge effects off them cheaply and consistently.

There are benefits to how Templars are already setup. We can be ranged or be melee, sometimes in the same bar. And the strength of our DMG sources is that they should be consistent lower DMG, but ignore dodge roll/reflects or proc additional DMG on consistent use. Other classes are either highly reflective, highly blocked, highly dodged or have no execute/ranged skill line. Only problem is we are plauged by terrible cast times or terrible mechanics. At least we don't have the super high skill costs that DKs have lol.

Templars should control the Battlfield conditions through consistency and debuffing enemies while picking what we need to change up our offense/defense builds as the meta shifts. That's how I see the Templar class against the other classes, not flashy but works.

Let's Count the ways.

Major Resolve: all classes (Templar has cheap Mana cost major resolve that procs minor mending and can proc minor vitality and minor protection)
Minor Resolve: Sorc, NB, DK (sorcs+ NB don't have a burst heal, dk has no healing skill line so it makes sense temps don't have minor resist buffs.)
Major Ward: all classes (Templar has cheap cost major ward)
Minor Ward: Sorc, NB, DK (same as minor resolve)
Major Fortitude: DK (has no healing skill line, health returned on ulti use so they needed major fortitude to add heals)
Minor Fortitude: Templar (stuck on one skill that requires slotting)
Major Endurance: DK, Warden (two hander+ dual weld procs this which is pretty abundant)
Minor Endurance, Templar, NB, Warden (can stack with major Endurance gained from dual weld)
Major Intellect: none
Minor Intellect: Sorcerer, Templar, Warden (sorcs have to use the shield that doesn't add additional shield strength, which most don't.)
Major Sorcery: DK, NB, Warden, Sorcerer (no trade offs aside from expensive casts for some, tied behind a heal with no empwer buff, on a animal that only gives the buff plus some Regen and 2% DMG for slotting it, and the other is melee range requiring a hit.)
Minor Sorcery: Templar (tied behind a ranged spamable that snares and price major prophecy)
Major Prophecy: Templar, DK, Warden (vamps bane also generates Ultimate on use, has a snare, procs fire DMG sets reliably and helps proc skoria. DK has to slot their spell on the same bar, warden's buff is tied to it's healing line.)
Minor Prophecy: Sorcerer
Major Brutality: Sorcerer, NB, Warden, DK (two hander/dual weld gives this buff easily.)
Minor Brutality: DK (requires expensive mag spell to cast but everyone get the buff for 10 seconds)
Major Savagery: Templar, DK, Warden (tied to Stam's morph that's spamable that also ignores dodge/reflects. Also procs burning light/skoria and does extra DMG on blocking targets. DK must slot spell making it one bar only, warden must use green lotus morph and costs mag to cast but can use on both bars if cast but only gives healing on light/heavy attack to one player that's nearby.
Minor Savagery: NB (tied to crit hits)
Major Berserk: NB (tied to kills using marked target but you don't get to see stealth enemies and duration is for 5 seconds)
Minor Berserk: NB, Warden (both great morphs, everyone else can use resto staff or 2pc slimecraw)
Major Vitality: NB (tied to 150 cost Ultimate)
Minor Vitality: DK, Templar, NB (tied to cheap spamable rune. Also provides minor protection buff, and major resists + minor mending)
Major Mending: DK, Warden (dks buff tied to small shield duration, warden is only available at 40% healing or below.)
Minor Mending: Templar, NB (tied to purge and rune. Lasts 8 seconds standing off spell. Doesn't harm you. NB does Oblivion DMG to them for their new spell)
Major Protection: NB, Warden, Templar (tied to Ultimate; templar+NB are Stationary. Temps also gives 16000 armor, warden is more moble but also 200 ultimate versus the other two which are 150.)
Minor Protection: Templar, NB, Warden (warden/Templar consistently proc. Wardens is 4k mag. NB is tied to cloak and most pick the crit morph instead)
Major Evasion: NB (requires mag cost. But gives crit chance and 10% crit DMG for slotting)
Minor Evasion: Warden (choice between minor berserk or minor evasion must take place)
Major Expedition: NB, Sorcerer, DK, Warden (cheap potions available with a hot component for everyone. Stamina has options through dual weld or bow. NB requires mag cost, mag Sorc only gets this buff, DK requires use of chains, and wardens is also mag cost. All durations are really low)
Minor Expedition: Sorcerer (Stam morph only)
Major Heroism: Warden (requires aborb of mag damage and casting spell)
Minor Lifesteal: Warden (requires enemy to hit player with vines)
Minor Toughness: Warden (procs on healing. Very reliable)

Major Buffs:

• Sorcerer: 5
• Nightblade: 9
• Templar: 5
• Dragonknight: 10
• Warden: 11

Minor Buffs:

• Sorcerer: 5
• Nightblade: 8
• Templar: 7
• Dragonknight: 4
• Warden: 7

The availability of buffs is most certainly not one of the strengths of the Templar Class. If anything, it is a relative weakness.

It's not about the total number of available buffs for each; it's about what those buffs bring to the table and how reliably you can control them Templars have more "bang for your buck" buff packages. For example, restoring rune gives us minor protection, minor vitality, major resolve+major ward, and snares anyone in it for less than 1800 mag. Everyone else only has one of these buffs to each spell and has to cast them for 4k base mag in some cases.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Another bad thing is that Templar don't have major sorc/brutality buff implemented into class ability. We had major mending that was defensive counterpart but after we lost it we once again left as only class that have nor defensive major buff nor offensive one.

They currently have:
- minor protection+minor vitality and s passive that includes minor mending
- minor sorcery with major socery on pots or degeneration. Degeneration gives you a small heal+ heals on light attacks
- major protection on our healing ultimate. Plus another 16000 resists. For comparison, you get more than 10k with major resist buff+ chudan/pirate combo.
- purge that removes 5 debuffs, which include power of the light removal+ major penetration sources and bleeds.
- major savagery on jabs

We don't need major socery built in nor do we need another Major defensive buff; we have opportunities to stack minor/major buffs. I'm worried we start adding for DMG buffs, they are going to remove other defensive buffs that will be worse.

Yes, we do have everything everyone else has....except we need to use potions and gear and non-class skills everyone else has access to as an "alternative" to their skills that give them and EXCEPT those other classes often get those buffs on actually useful skills that aren't ultimates AND sometimes even passives.

You can't, just can't, compare one class to another by using non-class tools as those are available to all for the same benefit and disadvantages and not truly comparing the classes themselves.
That's like saying I'm as good as the best NFL defensive lineman because I have access to an exoskeletal robot suit that makes me stronger. You're adding things to the equation to balance an unbalanced base equation, which doesn't really work when you try to simplify the equation to a simple "law" that applies to all situations.

Except this isn't a competitive sport, it's an RPG with a heavy emphasis on selecting stats/gear to create builds that let you complete the content in a fun setting.

Under your philosophy, WoW would be a better game to play because gear is determined for you as well as the skills; you don't get to mix and match across build spectrums to make your rotation unique to how you want to play. At least in ESO, I can get what I need to make a build that contradicts the meta; access to outside skills and gear is the only way this is possible.

1) Restoring Focus is VERY small radius and stays in one spot. You're not using that in pvp and not very often when it could matter in pve and only if you're a tank.

2) Yes, this is a competitive sport as far as most pvpers are concerned with how they talk and post. They're always worried about what everyone else can do compared to themselves, wanting an even fight(while really wanting to win every time) or what we call "balance".

So sorry, it does matter that all classes should be balanced and they currently are not.


Edit:
Yes, World of Warcraft has very much better balanced PVP because it levels the playing field. Most games that have great pvp experiences do the same thing where they grant players a minimum level of acceptable gear, or just straight up max gear, that only applies its stats in pvp arenas to avoid unbalancing pve.
It works in those games for a reason so thank you for bringing up another comparison game that does it better than ESO.