Rouven wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Rouven wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Rouven wrote: »

(...)

The world as a whole isn't pushing that everything and everyone move to one option so my observations are asking ZOS to change the game in order to push everyone towards one way would be friction causing just as if this occurred in real life. That's just one side...the customer side....there is still the business or sellers side of this and it would seem to follow a similar friction if implemented.

Thoughts?

I'd argue here that the world is indeed pushing. Where are the corner stores/mom and pop shops?
In many industries you will find that there is no local option to buy things - online is the only way.

If there was the option - like in the real world - for a global "online" competition shop - aka auction house - the majority of traders would be deserted. But the draconian government is suppressing free trade - lol.



How is it that we largely agree if we can do something with less clicks that is a good thing but not when it comes to trading.

@Rouven
Interesting as there are clearly communicated comments for and against in this thread as well as others.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to write, some in this game world are pushing rather than assuming some equate to all?

Mh, I'd say it's more akin to pulling.

Like tug of war.

O K, so in tug of war as an analogy, I wouldn't like ZOS to add either side more help and as this is being discussed any actions they take does just that. Other than QoL items like updates to the UI to remove clutter or alow concise and quicker search and viewing. That QoL shouldn't be taken as to add access to view more store or zone viewing of traders.

I'm saying QoL as in if I'm at the Guild Bank, maybe I could have more than 5 Guilds to see, so in another thread I commented on the possibility of GL or GMs to have alliances which could open up someone to maybe 25 guild stores. That's QoL but changing traders.....doesn't seem the right way to look at QoL for gameplay on this in my opinion.

Who benefits from your qol proposal?

@Rouven
Who benefits.....
That depends on whether other folks theories are accurate.......my suggestion isn't to change the traders but its addressing the theory that large groups of players don't have access or the ability to sale and buy due to traders. It addresses the theory that some guilds operate as monopolies in terms of traders. It also addresses the opinions that this game blocks or negates large groups of players from readily available commerce.

As a result of this...IF said guild has a trader, the alliances store access is removed until the trader is lost.

Raraaku wrote: »

Allow non-guild members to trade at Guild Stores for a % tariff that the current Trade Guild that owns that Store can set as well as inventory control over non-members i.e. take off items that are underselling members which are returned to the original seller. Prime trading hubs can sell a higher tariff % due to location and traffic while lesser locations can set smaller tariff % to balance out higher profit for the sellers at the expense of a less popular trading location.

I wont tag you but my argument with these ideas is it encourages separation in a game whose design at some point requires group play to experience everything so its a bad approach to change or confuse players by changing the existing.

Lets look at the impacts of MSA and the main story solo only situations..... lets not go there again

Raraaku wrote: »

Allow non-guild members to trade at Guild Stores for a % tariff that the current Trade Guild that owns that Store can set as well as inventory control over non-members i.e. take off items that are underselling members which are returned to the original seller. Prime trading hubs can sell a higher tariff % due to location and traffic while lesser locations can set smaller tariff % to balance out higher profit for the sellers at the expense of a less popular trading location.

Best idea that has probably ever been posted on these forums.

Good lord,

The solution is not less competition. (Auction house) the solution is more competition (more locations) and a better search feature.

Auction houses just landed to those who already exert enough influence on the economy.

The ability to search all kiosk's and see prices but not be able to buy unless you go to the actual vendor.

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

this system works for a certain kind of seller. but its awful for most buyers even with TTC (becasue you STILL have to hoof it all over the place, checking traders one by one -if you are lucky/don't mind paying higher price, it will be at the first trader you check, but more often then not - by the time you get there, the item is gone), its awful for anyone who is a sporadic seller or a sporadic player, the only thing this system is good for is gold sync.

and before someone says anything about me not understanding the system, I understand it fine. currently without selling tempers for that extra burst of gold I may want for luxury furnishings, I make 300k plus per week with my two non prime but decent nonetheless location guilds. not a power seller, but good enough to qualify for even a prime location guild without having to change anything about how I play.

I still. hate. this system. it sucks as a buyer (and I don't even want to contemplate how much more it sucks on console where awesome guild store doesn't exist). its a pain if you are not a regular seller. it NEEDS a rework.

@Linaleah

It's not clear in your comment "why it sucks" ......it's clear why you don't like parts of it but the feature as a whole, it's a very realistic experience.

Here's what I'm reading.....just picked your comment as an example to quote.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to have to go other places or search multiple times for items I want to buy. Instead I want to see any and everything in one place with one interaction.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to be limited to who my listed items for sale are seen by, instead I want everyone to see everything in one interaction.


For arguments sake, would you agree that you dislike the real worlds model of buying and selling goods today?

given that I do bulk of my shopping on amazon, occasionally supplemented by a few other online retailers, are you sure you want me to answer that question? you may not get the answer you are expecting.

the system as it is right now is a time sink. pointless time sink. plenty of MMO's on the market do NOT have this pointless time sink and do just fine in terms of their economies. I don't play a fantasy video game for a "realistic" experience anyways.

why the system sucks? my comment does mention it. it excludes anyone that is not a daily player/seller. it excludes people with limited playtime that don't have an hour to spend running around just to buy couple of items (the point of buying rather then farming btw, is to save that time you would have spent farming) UI is absolutely awful. and its far more exploitable than centralized trading whether its an auction with bids, or just straight up trading - is.

Yes, I'm asking cause its good conversation.

Lets use your comment about Amazon. and lets add in the possibilities that you can buy everything you want and need from Amazon exclusively. That doesn't eliminate other goods and services being purchased and sold by ....another website, multi level marketing concepts, another legitimate brick and motor building, as well as some lady or guy selling items at a tent or out the back of their cars/trucks legitimately.

I'll agree that using Amazon for you and some as well as having that experience in a game seems "best" but as we know, the rest of the world for reasons known and unknown use other legitimate ways to buy and sale goods and services.

The world as a whole isn't pushing that everything and everyone move to one option so my observations are asking ZOS to change the game in order to push everyone towards one way would be friction causing just as if this occurred in real life. That's just one side...the customer side....there is still the business or sellers side of this and it would seem to follow a similar friction if implemented.

Thoughts?

thoughts? simple.

1. small business are online as well. amazon is not the only marketplace there is (did you know that what amazon sells is not all amazon, there are tons of sellers that sell THROUGH amazon, but are not actualy part OF amazon). then there's e-bay, etsy, Walmart is nowadays a marketplace not unlike amazon and heck even individual websites that are still easily accessible and usable with a click of a button and ability to compare prices without leaving amazon etc websites, so that you

2. I have zero problem with existence of brick and mortar, I do occasionally shop in brick and mortar stores when opportune (I did say bulk, not all). but what YOU and people who agree with you push for is that scattered brick and mortar is the ONLY way to shop. no amazon or places LIKE amazon.

a compromise was suggested many a time. allow people to list without being in a guild - make the listing fee higher vs listing with a guild to keep being in the guild desirable for sellers who are more consistent rather just want to sell here and there sporadically. keep individual kiosks, but also make all of them searchable and purchasable from - at a central location. add a surcharge (shipping costs if you will) for shopping at a central location vs directly at a kiosk. if you must keep the system - FIX it so that its more accessible to MORE people and less of an exploitable mess. as an added bonus, it should normalize kiosk costs.

1. I'm aware that Amazon is a network of vendors and sellers which is why this example makes sense to utilize. Its comparable to the discussion where Amazon is the Guild Store and the vendors or sellers are each player. As I also wrote about other outlets in various forms.... Follow my suggestion which offers more vendors access to the Guild store from 5 per player up to 25, that's a increase of 20 stores at most per player. Its the equivalent of not having to ever leave a desired town with a guild store in addition to access to the guild traders in said town....in some examples that's over 35 or more with no need to travel.

They are easily accessible to YOU, don't apply yourself as the reality of EVERYONE ELSE. (I'm no yelling but caps are to draw attention to words I seek to highlight).

Its not correct to look at another idea only from YOUR point of view and conclude that EVERYONE would be one in the same in terms of desires, access and frequency of use or benefit.

2. Not sure where you drew the idea that other outlets are the only way to shop. its more accurate to interpret that other outlets are for SOME, the ONLY way to shop as I wrote a few times, nothing applies equally to EVERYONE. (Again not yelling just drawing attention to specific words).

Regarding the use of the word "Compromise"
-This is a request of you and others from ONLY YOUR point of view excluding EVERYONE ELSE therefore SOME may use YOUR idea while others may not as in todays design, the reality is Guild Stores are not the ONLY way to buy and sale.

-Your suggestions aren't addressing all sides.
Specifically many are happy as is
many want changes
many don't care
many don't use any of this

Just sharing perspectives

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Rouven wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@Rouven
Who benefits.....
That depends on whether other folks theories are accurate.......my suggestion isn't to change the traders but its addressing the theory that large groups of players don't have access or the ability to sale and buy due to traders. It addresses the theory that some guilds operate as monopolies in terms of traders. It also addresses the opinions that this game blocks or negates large groups of players from readily available commerce.

I can't really see how this proposal would do this.

Let's divvy this up and let me call one the trader market (existing model) and the other an open market (I don't want to say auction house because I'm not talking about the bidding process etc).

Ability to sell items.

Trader Market: Join a guild, visit NPC, navigate interface.
Open Market: No prerequisite, press hotkey to open interface, navigate interface.

Ability to buy items.

Trader Market: Visit NPC, navigate interface, visit next NPC etc or exit game browse 3rd party site, visit correct NPC and hope the item is still for sale
Open Market: Hotkey, navigate interface.

Notice here the divide between a casual user that might not check a third party site for pricing and the power (?) user in the trader market.

Not addressed yet is the position of the trader NPC which again puts the casual user at a potential disadvantage - can we agree there is a reason why some trader NPC's are more coveted? Perhaps we can agree that convenience plays a factor here despite the potential of a 3rd party website to check pricing. This does not exist in the open market.

So while there is the potential for all to buy and only a minimum prerequisite to sell here there are advantages on being in the big, the right guild, correct? Why else would there be the need for some to join more than one trading guild?

Personally I don't believe the monopoly arguments on either side of the fence. No one has real proof and the people who run the games all say that this does not happen in their game.

Other games have even more cyclical data for individual items - sort of buy when lesser people are online and sell when more people are playing (on even a daily basis), so at the end of the day the power user will always have an edge when it comes to trading - and good for them.

This 5 guilds together would not really change much, just the ratio. Largest guilds will join together and we are right back where we started, nothing changed for the average Joe.

I'd love to imagine a system where we have an open concept, minimum friction for entry, complete overview over the market and still some incentive for actual traders, skill lines or the like. Discounts for the professional - I don't know, just throwing things out there at this point.

For me trading is more about convenience and completing collections and getting rid of things like recipes I think others might find useful or if I simply have too much of something. Since I don't enjoy the trading aspect itself per se but I don't have the feeling I can easily sell something for a fair market price I for the most part don't participate other than buying the occasional recipe if I really want something.

It's akin to me letting out a loud sigh if I'd have to find a mailbox in-game.

You're not trying to see, you're just arguing your point....and that's fine I'm just sharing another perspective.

I'm not here to argue at all but a dialogue with you does not seem to be happening. Instead you are simply projecting your opinion onto me.
I'm open minded but I don't really see any convincing perspective from your side nor do you seem willing to explain your perspective. Neither do I understand your point about bringing Karl Marx into this, nor about the real world comparison nor about your qol feature and I tried to explain why. It seemed to me you were about sharing ideas, which is the only reason why I responded to you in the first place but I must have misunderstood that.

But that's fine, no need to further talk past each other and no hard feeling from my side. Cheers.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

this system works for a certain kind of seller. but its awful for most buyers even with TTC (becasue you STILL have to hoof it all over the place, checking traders one by one -if you are lucky/don't mind paying higher price, it will be at the first trader you check, but more often then not - by the time you get there, the item is gone), its awful for anyone who is a sporadic seller or a sporadic player, the only thing this system is good for is gold sync.

and before someone says anything about me not understanding the system, I understand it fine. currently without selling tempers for that extra burst of gold I may want for luxury furnishings, I make 300k plus per week with my two non prime but decent nonetheless location guilds. not a power seller, but good enough to qualify for even a prime location guild without having to change anything about how I play.

I still. hate. this system. it sucks as a buyer (and I don't even want to contemplate how much more it sucks on console where awesome guild store doesn't exist). its a pain if you are not a regular seller. it NEEDS a rework.

@Linaleah

It's not clear in your comment "why it sucks" ......it's clear why you don't like parts of it but the feature as a whole, it's a very realistic experience.

Here's what I'm reading.....just picked your comment as an example to quote.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to have to go other places or search multiple times for items I want to buy. Instead I want to see any and everything in one place with one interaction.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to be limited to who my listed items for sale are seen by, instead I want everyone to see everything in one interaction.


For arguments sake, would you agree that you dislike the real worlds model of buying and selling goods today?

given that I do bulk of my shopping on amazon, occasionally supplemented by a few other online retailers, are you sure you want me to answer that question? you may not get the answer you are expecting.

the system as it is right now is a time sink. pointless time sink. plenty of MMO's on the market do NOT have this pointless time sink and do just fine in terms of their economies. I don't play a fantasy video game for a "realistic" experience anyways.

why the system sucks? my comment does mention it. it excludes anyone that is not a daily player/seller. it excludes people with limited playtime that don't have an hour to spend running around just to buy couple of items (the point of buying rather then farming btw, is to save that time you would have spent farming) UI is absolutely awful. and its far more exploitable than centralized trading whether its an auction with bids, or just straight up trading - is.

Yes, I'm asking cause its good conversation.

Lets use your comment about Amazon. and lets add in the possibilities that you can buy everything you want and need from Amazon exclusively. That doesn't eliminate other goods and services being purchased and sold by ....another website, multi level marketing concepts, another legitimate brick and motor building, as well as some lady or guy selling items at a tent or out the back of their cars/trucks legitimately.

I'll agree that using Amazon for you and some as well as having that experience in a game seems "best" but as we know, the rest of the world for reasons known and unknown use other legitimate ways to buy and sale goods and services.

The world as a whole isn't pushing that everything and everyone move to one option so my observations are asking ZOS to change the game in order to push everyone towards one way would be friction causing just as if this occurred in real life. That's just one side...the customer side....there is still the business or sellers side of this and it would seem to follow a similar friction if implemented.

Thoughts?

thoughts? simple.

1. small business are online as well. amazon is not the only marketplace there is (did you know that what amazon sells is not all amazon, there are tons of sellers that sell THROUGH amazon, but are not actualy part OF amazon). then there's e-bay, etsy, Walmart is nowadays a marketplace not unlike amazon and heck even individual websites that are still easily accessible and usable with a click of a button and ability to compare prices without leaving amazon etc websites, so that you

2. I have zero problem with existence of brick and mortar, I do occasionally shop in brick and mortar stores when opportune (I did say bulk, not all). but what YOU and people who agree with you push for is that scattered brick and mortar is the ONLY way to shop. no amazon or places LIKE amazon.

a compromise was suggested many a time. allow people to list without being in a guild - make the listing fee higher vs listing with a guild to keep being in the guild desirable for sellers who are more consistent rather just want to sell here and there sporadically. keep individual kiosks, but also make all of them searchable and purchasable from - at a central location. add a surcharge (shipping costs if you will) for shopping at a central location vs directly at a kiosk. if you must keep the system - FIX it so that its more accessible to MORE people and less of an exploitable mess. as an added bonus, it should normalize kiosk costs.

1. I'm aware that Amazon is a network of vendors and sellers which is why this example makes sense to utilize. Its comparable to the discussion where Amazon is the Guild Store and the vendors or sellers are each player. As I also wrote about other outlets in various forms.... Follow my suggestion which offers more vendors access to the Guild store from 5 per player up to 25, that's a increase of 20 stores at most per player. Its the equivalent of not having to ever leave a desired town with a guild store in addition to access to the guild traders in said town....in some examples that's over 35 or more with no need to travel.

They are easily accessible to YOU, don't apply yourself as the reality of EVERYONE ELSE. (I'm no yelling but caps are to draw attention to words I seek to highlight).

Its not correct to look at another idea only from YOUR point of view and conclude that EVERYONE would be one in the same in terms of desires, access and frequency of use or benefit.

2. Not sure where you drew the idea that other outlets are the only way to shop. its more accurate to interpret that other outlets are for SOME, the ONLY way to shop as I wrote a few times, nothing applies equally to EVERYONE. (Again not yelling just drawing attention to specific words).

Regarding the use of the word "Compromise"
-This is a request of you and others from ONLY YOUR point of view excluding EVERYONE ELSE therefore SOME may use YOUR idea while others may not as in todays design, the reality is Guild Stores are not the ONLY way to buy and sale.

-Your suggestions aren't addressing all sides.
Specifically many are happy as is
many want changes
many don't care
many don't use any of this

Just sharing perspectives

all right, lets see if I can adress it point by point.

1. no, network of sellers on amazon is NOT players within the guild, its trading guilds within the server. your suggestion doesn't fix the problem of people who are not selling regularly enough to be IN a trading guild. it also doesn't address that you STILL most likely will have to travel all over the place, just to find that one item you are looking for.

they are easily accessible to EVERYONE (not shouting, emphasizing the word) with internet connection. shipping directly to home is a variable, but given that I don't live inside a major city, so most of the time - have to pick up my packages from a post office - I get that. its STILL more convenient and faster then driving around from store to store to look for an item that may not even be there. unlike real life, I cannot just call a store ahead and ask them if its still available - in ESO, I have to physically get to the trader and check. heck there was this one time when i found an item on TTC and went to the location it was supposed to be listed... only to find that that guild lost their trader for a week, putting me back to square one. and that is WITH addons alleviating some of the issues on PC.

2. by rejecting centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores.

people who are no looking for a change - are not looking for a compromise to begin with. it also doesn't fix the system for the majority. my compromise (which wasn't even originally suggested by me - I just think its an awesome idea) addresses people who are willing to give a little, while still keeping the core of what they enjoy about the system - trader kiosks, trading guilds and looking for deals in far away locations.

people who don't care are irrelevant as they are not affected.

people who are not using any of this - you have to ask yourself a question. why? why aren't they using it? is it becasue they don't care? or because the system is convoluted and inaccessible for them?

I am also merely sharing perspective. the difference is - you don't think the change is needed. I do.

Shamus44 wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

All 5 of my guilds lost our Kiosks this week... This has never happened before. Ive always had at least one guild maintain a kiosk. There is something janky going on here...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371855/trader-bug#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/355542/bug-guild-trader-none-hired#latest

Thanks @Shamus44 for clearing that up. I haven't had a chance to check the actual status since I noticed last night.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

this system works for a certain kind of seller. but its awful for most buyers even with TTC (becasue you STILL have to hoof it all over the place, checking traders one by one -if you are lucky/don't mind paying higher price, it will be at the first trader you check, but more often then not - by the time you get there, the item is gone), its awful for anyone who is a sporadic seller or a sporadic player, the only thing this system is good for is gold sync.

and before someone says anything about me not understanding the system, I understand it fine. currently without selling tempers for that extra burst of gold I may want for luxury furnishings, I make 300k plus per week with my two non prime but decent nonetheless location guilds. not a power seller, but good enough to qualify for even a prime location guild without having to change anything about how I play.

I still. hate. this system. it sucks as a buyer (and I don't even want to contemplate how much more it sucks on console where awesome guild store doesn't exist). its a pain if you are not a regular seller. it NEEDS a rework.

@Linaleah

It's not clear in your comment "why it sucks" ......it's clear why you don't like parts of it but the feature as a whole, it's a very realistic experience.

Here's what I'm reading.....just picked your comment as an example to quote.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to have to go other places or search multiple times for items I want to buy. Instead I want to see any and everything in one place with one interaction.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to be limited to who my listed items for sale are seen by, instead I want everyone to see everything in one interaction.


For arguments sake, would you agree that you dislike the real worlds model of buying and selling goods today?

given that I do bulk of my shopping on amazon, occasionally supplemented by a few other online retailers, are you sure you want me to answer that question? you may not get the answer you are expecting.

the system as it is right now is a time sink. pointless time sink. plenty of MMO's on the market do NOT have this pointless time sink and do just fine in terms of their economies. I don't play a fantasy video game for a "realistic" experience anyways.

why the system sucks? my comment does mention it. it excludes anyone that is not a daily player/seller. it excludes people with limited playtime that don't have an hour to spend running around just to buy couple of items (the point of buying rather then farming btw, is to save that time you would have spent farming) UI is absolutely awful. and its far more exploitable than centralized trading whether its an auction with bids, or just straight up trading - is.

Yes, I'm asking cause its good conversation.

Lets use your comment about Amazon. and lets add in the possibilities that you can buy everything you want and need from Amazon exclusively. That doesn't eliminate other goods and services being purchased and sold by ....another website, multi level marketing concepts, another legitimate brick and motor building, as well as some lady or guy selling items at a tent or out the back of their cars/trucks legitimately.

I'll agree that using Amazon for you and some as well as having that experience in a game seems "best" but as we know, the rest of the world for reasons known and unknown use other legitimate ways to buy and sale goods and services.

The world as a whole isn't pushing that everything and everyone move to one option so my observations are asking ZOS to change the game in order to push everyone towards one way would be friction causing just as if this occurred in real life. That's just one side...the customer side....there is still the business or sellers side of this and it would seem to follow a similar friction if implemented.

Thoughts?

thoughts? simple.

1. small business are online as well. amazon is not the only marketplace there is (did you know that what amazon sells is not all amazon, there are tons of sellers that sell THROUGH amazon, but are not actualy part OF amazon). then there's e-bay, etsy, Walmart is nowadays a marketplace not unlike amazon and heck even individual websites that are still easily accessible and usable with a click of a button and ability to compare prices without leaving amazon etc websites, so that you

2. I have zero problem with existence of brick and mortar, I do occasionally shop in brick and mortar stores when opportune (I did say bulk, not all). but what YOU and people who agree with you push for is that scattered brick and mortar is the ONLY way to shop. no amazon or places LIKE amazon.

a compromise was suggested many a time. allow people to list without being in a guild - make the listing fee higher vs listing with a guild to keep being in the guild desirable for sellers who are more consistent rather just want to sell here and there sporadically. keep individual kiosks, but also make all of them searchable and purchasable from - at a central location. add a surcharge (shipping costs if you will) for shopping at a central location vs directly at a kiosk. if you must keep the system - FIX it so that its more accessible to MORE people and less of an exploitable mess. as an added bonus, it should normalize kiosk costs.

1. I'm aware that Amazon is a network of vendors and sellers which is why this example makes sense to utilize. Its comparable to the discussion where Amazon is the Guild Store and the vendors or sellers are each player. As I also wrote about other outlets in various forms.... Follow my suggestion which offers more vendors access to the Guild store from 5 per player up to 25, that's a increase of 20 stores at most per player. Its the equivalent of not having to ever leave a desired town with a guild store in addition to access to the guild traders in said town....in some examples that's over 35 or more with no need to travel.

They are easily accessible to YOU, don't apply yourself as the reality of EVERYONE ELSE. (I'm no yelling but caps are to draw attention to words I seek to highlight).

Its not correct to look at another idea only from YOUR point of view and conclude that EVERYONE would be one in the same in terms of desires, access and frequency of use or benefit.

2. Not sure where you drew the idea that other outlets are the only way to shop. its more accurate to interpret that other outlets are for SOME, the ONLY way to shop as I wrote a few times, nothing applies equally to EVERYONE. (Again not yelling just drawing attention to specific words).

Regarding the use of the word "Compromise"
-This is a request of you and others from ONLY YOUR point of view excluding EVERYONE ELSE therefore SOME may use YOUR idea while others may not as in todays design, the reality is Guild Stores are not the ONLY way to buy and sale.

-Your suggestions aren't addressing all sides.
Specifically many are happy as is
many want changes
many don't care
many don't use any of this

Just sharing perspectives

all right, lets see if I can adress it point by point.

1. no, network of sellers on amazon is NOT players within the guild, its trading guilds within the server. your suggestion doesn't fix the problem of people who are not selling regularly enough to be IN a trading guild. it also doesn't address that you STILL most likely will have to travel all over the place, just to find that one item you are looking for.

they are easily accessible to EVERYONE (not shouting, emphasizing the word) with internet connection. shipping directly to home is a variable, but given that I don't live inside a major city, so most of the time - have to pick up my packages from a post office - I get that. its STILL more convenient and faster then driving around from store to store to look for an item that may not even be there. unlike real life, I cannot just call a store ahead and ask them if its still available - in ESO, I have to physically get to the trader and check. heck there was this one time when i found an item on TTC and went to the location it was supposed to be listed... only to find that that guild lost their trader for a week, putting me back to square one. and that is WITH addons alleviating some of the issues on PC.

2. by rejecting centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores.

people who are no looking for a change - are not looking for a compromise to begin with. it also doesn't fix the system for the majority. my compromise (which wasn't even originally suggested by me - I just think its an awesome idea) addresses people who are willing to give a little, while still keeping the core of what they enjoy about the system - trader kiosks, trading guilds and looking for deals in far away locations.

people who don't care are irrelevant as they are not affected.

people who are not using any of this - you have to ask yourself a question. why? why aren't they using it? is it becasue they don't care? or because the system is convoluted and inaccessible for them?

I am also merely sharing perspective. the difference is - you don't think the change is needed. I do.

@Linaleah

Fair lets touch on this point by point that a good way to break down the discussion.


1. Amazon IS a company who provides services to others who seek a way to sale, or buy goods and services.

-Guild Store in a trading guild is a group of players who've come together in order to list items for others to buy and where players also may join for better access to buy. In some of these, resources are pooled to obtain a Guild Trader.

-Guild Store in a non-trade guild offers the same exact features and options subject to the members desires which may or may not resemble a trading guilds actions and intent.

-Guild Trader is an extension of the Guild store whereas the Guild Store is an additional opportunity made available to more players at a specific location per week.

Amazon is just as accessible in the game of ESO as a Guild trader in context to the games technology compared the worlds technology in 2017. So in the correct context of what we are discussing, I would argue Amazon is literally the accurate reference based on your analogy. Convenience and reasonable, as well as accessible and possible all matter in our discussion in context to this game.


ESO:
-We don't have the internet, or satellites, nor do we have fiber optic, DSL, Cable, Cell phones, or hard line phones.

-The game allows us humans technology means but our actual characters behave and interact in a dated environment where outside of magic.....instant access isn't possible at all. So the context of the Amazon example while its easy to understand, doesn't make a strong argument as to what ESO the game should offer if we are putting into context of ESO....the world not XYZ game on PC, Xbox and PlayStation.

2. You write, "Rejecting a centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores."

- This idea that everything should be instant and accessible anywhere....lacks a meaningful reality in the game.
- How is this magical search happening in context of ESO?
In the world we have the internet, satellite, cell and hard line phones, fiber optic, DSL, Cable, etc. that exists to allow such to occur. And with all of that, we still cant search all outlets from one place.

At this point I'm respectfully going to argue.....very simply put.....This suggestion has to make sense in context to what is going on and as its often expressed, it doesn't align. The system isn't broken, its just not what some others want.


At least come with lore based means with some deadric and cosmic powers that exist to suggest how someone is ......and BAM they all of a sudden should be able to see, grab, send, receive things magically in the game.

Looking at how transmutation is being added....its coming with context.
Regardless of anyone's opinion on if there's a better way, at least give credit to the game not being one where things added aren't literally pulled out of the blue like what other games do.

amazon provides "kiosks" if you will for companies large and small. that is why amazon is not a guild but rather a server itself. but unlike guild traders - the space amazon provides is virtually limitless, becasue unlike guild kiosks, amazon doesn't limit either number of stores its willing to host, or how many people are allowed to be a part of the company represented.

moreover whenever I search for an item on amazon? ALL the results show up regardless of who listed them.

ESO. we have magic, instant travel, instant communication via magic, moreover - we can acess our banked items and gold from every. single. banker in a game. no matter where they are located. with upcoming update? we will also be able to deliver our crafting writs to any. turn in. spot. in a game. regardless of who supposedly ordered those items via in game text. what we also have is near instant delivery of mail. ANY mail. doesn't matter where you were when you bought something - you could be in Auridon shopping your own guild's listings, and your guild kiosk is in Wrothgar - your get your purchase delivered right away. same goes for listing. I can list items at any banker and they immediately show up at the trader nowhere near where i listed them. like magic. heck our modern technology cannot do that, not with physical items like ESO can.

arguing against being able to search and buy more then your guild from central location give all of the above is a bit.. odd, no? in context of the game it makes PERFECT sense to be able to shop at a central location. because its already here. in game. with zero lore explanation. the restriction is arbitrary.

kargen27 wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

There is no need to debate with the monopolists. Of course they will defend the current system because they are profiting from it.

It's the exact same thing when the government wants to bring more competition to a monopoly-dominated industry. You will hear all kinds of arguments from the monopolist: "jobs will be lost", "investments will plummet", "profits will leave the country", etc.

In the end, more competition means better quality at lower price for the consumer. In ESO, the prerequisite to more competition is to remove asymetry of information. An AH could do that, but it's not the only way. A centralized searching tool could also do the trick (akin to the TTC website).

Around 160 guild vendors vs one auction house. Which one lends itself to items being monopolized? It isn't the 160 vendors.

I wouldn't mind seeing a place in each zone you could visit and see what all the traders in that zone have. Putting it in the bank of the main city would work. It shouldn't show prices though so if you wanted a bargain you would have to visit each trader and check the price.

People keep mentioning lower prices. That is only true for common or easy to get items. With a central auction house it would be very easy for three or four people to completely control rare items.

LMAO TTC has made monopolizing on PC very easy. And its not like Console players arent paying attention to the site and taking cues there. Go to any major hub on PS4 NA server and guaranteed listed items are set and locked in to preset listings. With very little in the way of differing prices. I dont know what youre searching for in these kiosks. But its obviously not the most sought after and constantly moving product. So youre either talking out of your rearend here or youre being disengenous.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Raraaku wrote: »

snip

I wont tag you but my argument with these ideas is it encourages separation in a game whose design at some point requires group play to experience everything so its a bad approach to change or confuse players by changing the existing.

Lets look at the impacts of MSA and the main story solo only situations..... lets not go there again

While I'm still new to the game, I do not understand how this would confuse players. It's an addition upon an existing system which preserves the economic system in which ZoS is using. Also, I would argue that it would actually encourage group play. In that while the tariff system would allow an introduction to newer players, like myself, to trading and crafting without some of my perceived pitfalls of the current system. Right now there are two ways to trade with other players, join a Guild or directly trade. Both of these options can seem unappealing to newer players initially who may not be prepared or even want to have to pay thousands of gold in fees or sales; while there is always the possibility of being scammed with direct trading.

I think that the tariff system would serve as a great introductory tool to new players to the ins and outs of ESO's economy while also providing a safe option to sell their stuff. In terms with of not promoting group play, I don't think it would be too far to assume once players have the means to acquire more lucrative/higher level items that fetch a much higher price in the market; they would be much more inclined to join a Trading Guild in order to avoid losing a lot more money from these items due to tariffs. I know that I would be much more inclined to join a Guild if I'm trying to sell an item worth 20k and the Guild Store is charging a 20% tariff than if I'm just trying to sell something worth only 2k, because I personally wouldn't want to lose 4k gold compared to 400 gold. The system could also be used to help off-set the costs of maintaining a Guild Store in a prime location while also allowing a chance of those less prime locations do more business due to lower tariffs; which would in turn possibly allow them to make enough money to challenge for a better location.

But as I've stated before, and that you can tell from signature, I'm still new to the game and have not yet joined a Trading Guild, these are just my two cents coming from the perspective of a newbie.

Turelus wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

Ladies and gentlemen:

Why is it that now even many secondary and tertiary locations in ESO are going for millions of gold each week? And what does that say about the primary trade hub locations?

This is unsustainable. Something has got to give. Bid prices are insane, and there's no way sales are covering those bids. And when some guilds are now charging 15,000 to 20,000 gold a week in membership fees, you know those GMs are feeling the heat, too.

Maybe it's time for an auction house. Yeah, I know, those dreaded words: an auction house. It'll probably never happen, but short of that, what can Zeni do to put some sanity back into bid pricing and, on a larger scale, the ESO economy as a whole?

You answered this already, if it's unsustainable then it will crash and go back down.

The Housing Bubble in 2008 was unsustainable, too. Fortunately, the market correction had few consequences....

In all seriousness, though, the problem isn't that the current system is "unsustainable," because for the wealthy, because it may not be. It's that the current system is prohibitive to new entrants into the market.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

this system works for a certain kind of seller. but its awful for most buyers even with TTC (becasue you STILL have to hoof it all over the place, checking traders one by one -if you are lucky/don't mind paying higher price, it will be at the first trader you check, but more often then not - by the time you get there, the item is gone), its awful for anyone who is a sporadic seller or a sporadic player, the only thing this system is good for is gold sync.

and before someone says anything about me not understanding the system, I understand it fine. currently without selling tempers for that extra burst of gold I may want for luxury furnishings, I make 300k plus per week with my two non prime but decent nonetheless location guilds. not a power seller, but good enough to qualify for even a prime location guild without having to change anything about how I play.

I still. hate. this system. it sucks as a buyer (and I don't even want to contemplate how much more it sucks on console where awesome guild store doesn't exist). its a pain if you are not a regular seller. it NEEDS a rework.

@Linaleah

It's not clear in your comment "why it sucks" ......it's clear why you don't like parts of it but the feature as a whole, it's a very realistic experience.

Here's what I'm reading.....just picked your comment as an example to quote.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to have to go other places or search multiple times for items I want to buy. Instead I want to see any and everything in one place with one interaction.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to be limited to who my listed items for sale are seen by, instead I want everyone to see everything in one interaction.


For arguments sake, would you agree that you dislike the real worlds model of buying and selling goods today?

given that I do bulk of my shopping on amazon, occasionally supplemented by a few other online retailers, are you sure you want me to answer that question? you may not get the answer you are expecting.

the system as it is right now is a time sink. pointless time sink. plenty of MMO's on the market do NOT have this pointless time sink and do just fine in terms of their economies. I don't play a fantasy video game for a "realistic" experience anyways.

why the system sucks? my comment does mention it. it excludes anyone that is not a daily player/seller. it excludes people with limited playtime that don't have an hour to spend running around just to buy couple of items (the point of buying rather then farming btw, is to save that time you would have spent farming) UI is absolutely awful. and its far more exploitable than centralized trading whether its an auction with bids, or just straight up trading - is.

Yes, I'm asking cause its good conversation.

Lets use your comment about Amazon. and lets add in the possibilities that you can buy everything you want and need from Amazon exclusively. That doesn't eliminate other goods and services being purchased and sold by ....another website, multi level marketing concepts, another legitimate brick and motor building, as well as some lady or guy selling items at a tent or out the back of their cars/trucks legitimately.

I'll agree that using Amazon for you and some as well as having that experience in a game seems "best" but as we know, the rest of the world for reasons known and unknown use other legitimate ways to buy and sale goods and services.

The world as a whole isn't pushing that everything and everyone move to one option so my observations are asking ZOS to change the game in order to push everyone towards one way would be friction causing just as if this occurred in real life. That's just one side...the customer side....there is still the business or sellers side of this and it would seem to follow a similar friction if implemented.

Thoughts?

thoughts? simple.

1. small business are online as well. amazon is not the only marketplace there is (did you know that what amazon sells is not all amazon, there are tons of sellers that sell THROUGH amazon, but are not actualy part OF amazon). then there's e-bay, etsy, Walmart is nowadays a marketplace not unlike amazon and heck even individual websites that are still easily accessible and usable with a click of a button and ability to compare prices without leaving amazon etc websites, so that you

2. I have zero problem with existence of brick and mortar, I do occasionally shop in brick and mortar stores when opportune (I did say bulk, not all). but what YOU and people who agree with you push for is that scattered brick and mortar is the ONLY way to shop. no amazon or places LIKE amazon.

a compromise was suggested many a time. allow people to list without being in a guild - make the listing fee higher vs listing with a guild to keep being in the guild desirable for sellers who are more consistent rather just want to sell here and there sporadically. keep individual kiosks, but also make all of them searchable and purchasable from - at a central location. add a surcharge (shipping costs if you will) for shopping at a central location vs directly at a kiosk. if you must keep the system - FIX it so that its more accessible to MORE people and less of an exploitable mess. as an added bonus, it should normalize kiosk costs.

1. I'm aware that Amazon is a network of vendors and sellers which is why this example makes sense to utilize. Its comparable to the discussion where Amazon is the Guild Store and the vendors or sellers are each player. As I also wrote about other outlets in various forms.... Follow my suggestion which offers more vendors access to the Guild store from 5 per player up to 25, that's a increase of 20 stores at most per player. Its the equivalent of not having to ever leave a desired town with a guild store in addition to access to the guild traders in said town....in some examples that's over 35 or more with no need to travel.

They are easily accessible to YOU, don't apply yourself as the reality of EVERYONE ELSE. (I'm no yelling but caps are to draw attention to words I seek to highlight).

Its not correct to look at another idea only from YOUR point of view and conclude that EVERYONE would be one in the same in terms of desires, access and frequency of use or benefit.

2. Not sure where you drew the idea that other outlets are the only way to shop. its more accurate to interpret that other outlets are for SOME, the ONLY way to shop as I wrote a few times, nothing applies equally to EVERYONE. (Again not yelling just drawing attention to specific words).

Regarding the use of the word "Compromise"
-This is a request of you and others from ONLY YOUR point of view excluding EVERYONE ELSE therefore SOME may use YOUR idea while others may not as in todays design, the reality is Guild Stores are not the ONLY way to buy and sale.

-Your suggestions aren't addressing all sides.
Specifically many are happy as is
many want changes
many don't care
many don't use any of this

Just sharing perspectives

all right, lets see if I can adress it point by point.

1. no, network of sellers on amazon is NOT players within the guild, its trading guilds within the server. your suggestion doesn't fix the problem of people who are not selling regularly enough to be IN a trading guild. it also doesn't address that you STILL most likely will have to travel all over the place, just to find that one item you are looking for.

they are easily accessible to EVERYONE (not shouting, emphasizing the word) with internet connection. shipping directly to home is a variable, but given that I don't live inside a major city, so most of the time - have to pick up my packages from a post office - I get that. its STILL more convenient and faster then driving around from store to store to look for an item that may not even be there. unlike real life, I cannot just call a store ahead and ask them if its still available - in ESO, I have to physically get to the trader and check. heck there was this one time when i found an item on TTC and went to the location it was supposed to be listed... only to find that that guild lost their trader for a week, putting me back to square one. and that is WITH addons alleviating some of the issues on PC.

2. by rejecting centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores.

people who are no looking for a change - are not looking for a compromise to begin with. it also doesn't fix the system for the majority. my compromise (which wasn't even originally suggested by me - I just think its an awesome idea) addresses people who are willing to give a little, while still keeping the core of what they enjoy about the system - trader kiosks, trading guilds and looking for deals in far away locations.

people who don't care are irrelevant as they are not affected.

people who are not using any of this - you have to ask yourself a question. why? why aren't they using it? is it becasue they don't care? or because the system is convoluted and inaccessible for them?

I am also merely sharing perspective. the difference is - you don't think the change is needed. I do.

@Linaleah

Fair lets touch on this point by point that a good way to break down the discussion.


1. Amazon IS a company who provides services to others who seek a way to sale, or buy goods and services.

-Guild Store in a trading guild is a group of players who've come together in order to list items for others to buy and where players also may join for better access to buy. In some of these, resources are pooled to obtain a Guild Trader.

-Guild Store in a non-trade guild offers the same exact features and options subject to the members desires which may or may not resemble a trading guilds actions and intent.

-Guild Trader is an extension of the Guild store whereas the Guild Store is an additional opportunity made available to more players at a specific location per week.

Amazon is just as accessible in the game of ESO as a Guild trader in context to the games technology compared the worlds technology in 2017. So in the correct context of what we are discussing, I would argue Amazon is literally the accurate reference based on your analogy. Convenience and reasonable, as well as accessible and possible all matter in our discussion in context to this game.


ESO:
-We don't have the internet, or satellites, nor do we have fiber optic, DSL, Cable, Cell phones, or hard line phones.

-The game allows us humans technology means but our actual characters behave and interact in a dated environment where outside of magic.....instant access isn't possible at all. So the context of the Amazon example while its easy to understand, doesn't make a strong argument as to what ESO the game should offer if we are putting into context of ESO....the world not XYZ game on PC, Xbox and PlayStation.

2. You write, "Rejecting a centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores."

- This idea that everything should be instant and accessible anywhere....lacks a meaningful reality in the game.
- How is this magical search happening in context of ESO?
In the world we have the internet, satellite, cell and hard line phones, fiber optic, DSL, Cable, etc. that exists to allow such to occur. And with all of that, we still cant search all outlets from one place.

At this point I'm respectfully going to argue.....very simply put.....This suggestion has to make sense in context to what is going on and as its often expressed, it doesn't align. The system isn't broken, its just not what some others want.


At least come with lore based means with some deadric and cosmic powers that exist to suggest how someone is ......and BAM they all of a sudden should be able to see, grab, send, receive things magically in the game.

Looking at how transmutation is being added....its coming with context.
Regardless of anyone's opinion on if there's a better way, at least give credit to the game not being one where things added aren't literally pulled out of the blue like what other games do.

amazon provides "kiosks" if you will for companies large and small. that is why amazon is not a guild but rather a server itself. but unlike guild traders - the space amazon provides is virtually limitless, becasue unlike guild kiosks, amazon doesn't limit either number of stores its willing to host, or how many people are allowed to be a part of the company represented.

moreover whenever I search for an item on amazon? ALL the results show up regardless of who listed them.

ESO. we have magic, instant travel, instant communication via magic, moreover - we can acess our banked items and gold from every. single. banker in a game. no matter where they are located. with upcoming update? we will also be able to deliver our crafting writs to any. turn in. spot. in a game. regardless of who supposedly ordered those items via in game text. what we also have is near instant delivery of mail. ANY mail. doesn't matter where you were when you bought something - you could be in Auridon shopping your own guild's listings, and your guild kiosk is in Wrothgar - your get your purchase delivered right away. same goes for listing. I can list items at any banker and they immediately show up at the trader nowhere near where i listed them. like magic. heck our modern technology cannot do that, not with physical items like ESO can.

arguing against being able to search and buy more then your guild from central location give all of the above is a bit.. odd, no? in context of the game it makes PERFECT sense to be able to shop at a central location. because its already here. in game. with zero lore explanation. the restriction is arbitrary.

- We see Amazon the same in general 2017 world or real life. It seems we don’t agree on Amazons context if it were looked at in the world of ESO.

-In ESO the game world, a limitless and infinite listing and search that’s all encompassing....I understand why you want it but why and how does this become possible in the eso world.

Not on a ZOS server but more specific to ask....what in the eso world has occurred that our characters to get this new power that wasn’t possible?

We do have the ability to teleport, attack, heal and shield with magic as well as craft and soon change some properties of items but all of that is explained in lore.

Bank access is also logically explained and meaningful as it occurs with NPCs, and assistants with actual structures incorporated.

Communication isn’t actually instant ....not trying to be weird but text chat or voice chat isn’t how our characters communicate it’s how the users communicate so thats not of the ESo world.

Mail is sent and while we don’t have mailboxes to check the mail in terms of items for arguments sake does occur in the game world of eso in an unexplained manner. So I’m with you here.

Problem is guild stores and kiosks work within the game exclusively absent of user based tools like mail.

I don’t want to put sway on this so I’m gonna go off on a magical tangent. Would the mail system change to this user based feature absent of eso game world logic to some 2017 Amazon-ish thing to offer what you’re asking for?

It’s odd to me that people want this game to be like another game they left. Specifically saying a feature not the whole game because the way features like this work, they effect everyone regardless ofif you do or don’t want it or use it. It’s a server world

I don’t think it’s odd for people not to want a all encompassing searchable without logic, reason or basis on the game you’re playing when it’s a role playing game. Regardless of if we are or aren’t into the role play aspect as we still are playing a character.

This stuff matters to me.

I feel like you are selectively ignoring in game things because.. reasons? if the bunk is explained WHY does it work one way for guilds you are in, but the other for guilds you are not in? where exactly is it explained in game that being a member of the guild changes how physical item mailing works?

instantaneous magical communication does exist in game. from scrying bowls to magic mirrors, communication in this game can work the same way as in real life. sometimes its snail mail. and sometimes its as instant as a mirror call.

moreover - you are changing the subject and trying to turn it into "I just want it to be like that other game I played" show me a single game that works the way the compromise that I offered does? if one exists, its not the game I have personaly played. what I want for this game is to have less pointless time sinks. this. specific. game. it doesn't have to be the same way as other games work, but it should stop being so backwards and exclusionary.

if people didn't want all encompassing searchable? TTC would not exist and would NOT be as popular as it is right now. for all that "we like the game as it is" a suspicious number of those same people take advantage of TTC. and master merchant.

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

this system works for a certain kind of seller. but its awful for most buyers even with TTC (becasue you STILL have to hoof it all over the place, checking traders one by one -if you are lucky/don't mind paying higher price, it will be at the first trader you check, but more often then not - by the time you get there, the item is gone), its awful for anyone who is a sporadic seller or a sporadic player, the only thing this system is good for is gold sync.

and before someone says anything about me not understanding the system, I understand it fine. currently without selling tempers for that extra burst of gold I may want for luxury furnishings, I make 300k plus per week with my two non prime but decent nonetheless location guilds. not a power seller, but good enough to qualify for even a prime location guild without having to change anything about how I play.

I still. hate. this system. it sucks as a buyer (and I don't even want to contemplate how much more it sucks on console where awesome guild store doesn't exist). its a pain if you are not a regular seller. it NEEDS a rework.

@Linaleah

It's not clear in your comment "why it sucks" ......it's clear why you don't like parts of it but the feature as a whole, it's a very realistic experience.

Here's what I'm reading.....just picked your comment as an example to quote.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to have to go other places or search multiple times for items I want to buy. Instead I want to see any and everything in one place with one interaction.

-In a video game which uses multiple players on an massive online server in a role playing game, I don't want to be limited to who my listed items for sale are seen by, instead I want everyone to see everything in one interaction.


For arguments sake, would you agree that you dislike the real worlds model of buying and selling goods today?

given that I do bulk of my shopping on amazon, occasionally supplemented by a few other online retailers, are you sure you want me to answer that question? you may not get the answer you are expecting.

the system as it is right now is a time sink. pointless time sink. plenty of MMO's on the market do NOT have this pointless time sink and do just fine in terms of their economies. I don't play a fantasy video game for a "realistic" experience anyways.

why the system sucks? my comment does mention it. it excludes anyone that is not a daily player/seller. it excludes people with limited playtime that don't have an hour to spend running around just to buy couple of items (the point of buying rather then farming btw, is to save that time you would have spent farming) UI is absolutely awful. and its far more exploitable than centralized trading whether its an auction with bids, or just straight up trading - is.

Yes, I'm asking cause its good conversation.

Lets use your comment about Amazon. and lets add in the possibilities that you can buy everything you want and need from Amazon exclusively. That doesn't eliminate other goods and services being purchased and sold by ....another website, multi level marketing concepts, another legitimate brick and motor building, as well as some lady or guy selling items at a tent or out the back of their cars/trucks legitimately.

I'll agree that using Amazon for you and some as well as having that experience in a game seems "best" but as we know, the rest of the world for reasons known and unknown use other legitimate ways to buy and sale goods and services.

The world as a whole isn't pushing that everything and everyone move to one option so my observations are asking ZOS to change the game in order to push everyone towards one way would be friction causing just as if this occurred in real life. That's just one side...the customer side....there is still the business or sellers side of this and it would seem to follow a similar friction if implemented.

Thoughts?

thoughts? simple.

1. small business are online as well. amazon is not the only marketplace there is (did you know that what amazon sells is not all amazon, there are tons of sellers that sell THROUGH amazon, but are not actualy part OF amazon). then there's e-bay, etsy, Walmart is nowadays a marketplace not unlike amazon and heck even individual websites that are still easily accessible and usable with a click of a button and ability to compare prices without leaving amazon etc websites, so that you

2. I have zero problem with existence of brick and mortar, I do occasionally shop in brick and mortar stores when opportune (I did say bulk, not all). but what YOU and people who agree with you push for is that scattered brick and mortar is the ONLY way to shop. no amazon or places LIKE amazon.

a compromise was suggested many a time. allow people to list without being in a guild - make the listing fee higher vs listing with a guild to keep being in the guild desirable for sellers who are more consistent rather just want to sell here and there sporadically. keep individual kiosks, but also make all of them searchable and purchasable from - at a central location. add a surcharge (shipping costs if you will) for shopping at a central location vs directly at a kiosk. if you must keep the system - FIX it so that its more accessible to MORE people and less of an exploitable mess. as an added bonus, it should normalize kiosk costs.

1. I'm aware that Amazon is a network of vendors and sellers which is why this example makes sense to utilize. Its comparable to the discussion where Amazon is the Guild Store and the vendors or sellers are each player. As I also wrote about other outlets in various forms.... Follow my suggestion which offers more vendors access to the Guild store from 5 per player up to 25, that's a increase of 20 stores at most per player. Its the equivalent of not having to ever leave a desired town with a guild store in addition to access to the guild traders in said town....in some examples that's over 35 or more with no need to travel.

They are easily accessible to YOU, don't apply yourself as the reality of EVERYONE ELSE. (I'm no yelling but caps are to draw attention to words I seek to highlight).

Its not correct to look at another idea only from YOUR point of view and conclude that EVERYONE would be one in the same in terms of desires, access and frequency of use or benefit.

2. Not sure where you drew the idea that other outlets are the only way to shop. its more accurate to interpret that other outlets are for SOME, the ONLY way to shop as I wrote a few times, nothing applies equally to EVERYONE. (Again not yelling just drawing attention to specific words).

Regarding the use of the word "Compromise"
-This is a request of you and others from ONLY YOUR point of view excluding EVERYONE ELSE therefore SOME may use YOUR idea while others may not as in todays design, the reality is Guild Stores are not the ONLY way to buy and sale.

-Your suggestions aren't addressing all sides.
Specifically many are happy as is
many want changes
many don't care
many don't use any of this

Just sharing perspectives

all right, lets see if I can adress it point by point.

1. no, network of sellers on amazon is NOT players within the guild, its trading guilds within the server. your suggestion doesn't fix the problem of people who are not selling regularly enough to be IN a trading guild. it also doesn't address that you STILL most likely will have to travel all over the place, just to find that one item you are looking for.

they are easily accessible to EVERYONE (not shouting, emphasizing the word) with internet connection. shipping directly to home is a variable, but given that I don't live inside a major city, so most of the time - have to pick up my packages from a post office - I get that. its STILL more convenient and faster then driving around from store to store to look for an item that may not even be there. unlike real life, I cannot just call a store ahead and ask them if its still available - in ESO, I have to physically get to the trader and check. heck there was this one time when i found an item on TTC and went to the location it was supposed to be listed... only to find that that guild lost their trader for a week, putting me back to square one. and that is WITH addons alleviating some of the issues on PC.

2. by rejecting centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores.

people who are no looking for a change - are not looking for a compromise to begin with. it also doesn't fix the system for the majority. my compromise (which wasn't even originally suggested by me - I just think its an awesome idea) addresses people who are willing to give a little, while still keeping the core of what they enjoy about the system - trader kiosks, trading guilds and looking for deals in far away locations.

people who don't care are irrelevant as they are not affected.

people who are not using any of this - you have to ask yourself a question. why? why aren't they using it? is it becasue they don't care? or because the system is convoluted and inaccessible for them?

I am also merely sharing perspective. the difference is - you don't think the change is needed. I do.

@Linaleah

Fair lets touch on this point by point that a good way to break down the discussion.


1. Amazon IS a company who provides services to others who seek a way to sale, or buy goods and services.

-Guild Store in a trading guild is a group of players who've come together in order to list items for others to buy and where players also may join for better access to buy. In some of these, resources are pooled to obtain a Guild Trader.

-Guild Store in a non-trade guild offers the same exact features and options subject to the members desires which may or may not resemble a trading guilds actions and intent.

-Guild Trader is an extension of the Guild store whereas the Guild Store is an additional opportunity made available to more players at a specific location per week.

Amazon is just as accessible in the game of ESO as a Guild trader in context to the games technology compared the worlds technology in 2017. So in the correct context of what we are discussing, I would argue Amazon is literally the accurate reference based on your analogy. Convenience and reasonable, as well as accessible and possible all matter in our discussion in context to this game.


ESO:
-We don't have the internet, or satellites, nor do we have fiber optic, DSL, Cable, Cell phones, or hard line phones.

-The game allows us humans technology means but our actual characters behave and interact in a dated environment where outside of magic.....instant access isn't possible at all. So the context of the Amazon example while its easy to understand, doesn't make a strong argument as to what ESO the game should offer if we are putting into context of ESO....the world not XYZ game on PC, Xbox and PlayStation.

2. You write, "Rejecting a centralized search and shopping from a single location in favor of scattered kiosks, you ARE in fact suggesting that we don't have an outlet like amazon, ONLY scattered stores."

- This idea that everything should be instant and accessible anywhere....lacks a meaningful reality in the game.
- How is this magical search happening in context of ESO?
In the world we have the internet, satellite, cell and hard line phones, fiber optic, DSL, Cable, etc. that exists to allow such to occur. And with all of that, we still cant search all outlets from one place.

At this point I'm respectfully going to argue.....very simply put.....This suggestion has to make sense in context to what is going on and as its often expressed, it doesn't align. The system isn't broken, its just not what some others want.


At least come with lore based means with some deadric and cosmic powers that exist to suggest how someone is ......and BAM they all of a sudden should be able to see, grab, send, receive things magically in the game.

Looking at how transmutation is being added....its coming with context.
Regardless of anyone's opinion on if there's a better way, at least give credit to the game not being one where things added aren't literally pulled out of the blue like what other games do.

amazon provides "kiosks" if you will for companies large and small. that is why amazon is not a guild but rather a server itself. but unlike guild traders - the space amazon provides is virtually limitless, becasue unlike guild kiosks, amazon doesn't limit either number of stores its willing to host, or how many people are allowed to be a part of the company represented.

moreover whenever I search for an item on amazon? ALL the results show up regardless of who listed them.

ESO. we have magic, instant travel, instant communication via magic, moreover - we can acess our banked items and gold from every. single. banker in a game. no matter where they are located. with upcoming update? we will also be able to deliver our crafting writs to any. turn in. spot. in a game. regardless of who supposedly ordered those items via in game text. what we also have is near instant delivery of mail. ANY mail. doesn't matter where you were when you bought something - you could be in Auridon shopping your own guild's listings, and your guild kiosk is in Wrothgar - your get your purchase delivered right away. same goes for listing. I can list items at any banker and they immediately show up at the trader nowhere near where i listed them. like magic. heck our modern technology cannot do that, not with physical items like ESO can.

arguing against being able to search and buy more then your guild from central location give all of the above is a bit.. odd, no? in context of the game it makes PERFECT sense to be able to shop at a central location. because its already here. in game. with zero lore explanation. the restriction is arbitrary.

- We see Amazon the same in general 2017 world or real life. It seems we don’t agree on Amazons context if it were looked at in the world of ESO.

-In ESO the game world, a limitless and infinite listing and search that’s all encompassing....I understand why you want it but why and how does this become possible in the eso world.

Not on a ZOS server but more specific to ask....what in the eso world has occurred that our characters to get this new power that wasn’t possible?

We do have the ability to teleport, attack, heal and shield with magic as well as craft and soon change some properties of items but all of that is explained in lore.

Bank access is also logically explained and meaningful as it occurs with NPCs, and assistants with actual structures incorporated.

Communication isn’t actually instant ....not trying to be weird but text chat or voice chat isn’t how our characters communicate it’s how the users communicate so thats not of the ESo world.

Mail is sent and while we don’t have mailboxes to check the mail in terms of items for arguments sake does occur in the game world of eso in an unexplained manner. So I’m with you here.

Problem is guild stores and kiosks work within the game exclusively absent of user based tools like mail.

I don’t want to put sway on this so I’m gonna go off on a magical tangent. Would the mail system change to this user based feature absent of eso game world logic to some 2017 Amazon-ish thing to offer what you’re asking for?

It’s odd to me that people want this game to be like another game they left. Specifically saying a feature not the whole game because the way features like this work, they effect everyone regardless ofif you do or don’t want it or use it. It’s a server world

I don’t think it’s odd for people not to want a all encompassing searchable without logic, reason or basis on the game you’re playing when it’s a role playing game. Regardless of if we are or aren’t into the role play aspect as we still are playing a character.

This stuff matters to me.

I feel like you are selectively ignoring in game things because.. reasons? if the bunk is explained WHY does it work one way for guilds you are in, but the other for guilds you are not in? where exactly is it explained in game that being a member of the guild changes how physical item mailing works?

instantaneous magical communication does exist in game. from scrying bowls to magic mirrors, communication in this game can work the same way as in real life. sometimes its snail mail. and sometimes its as instant as a mirror call.

moreover - you are changing the subject and trying to turn it into "I just want it to be like that other game I played" show me a single game that works the way the compromise that I offered does? if one exists, its not the game I have personaly played. what I want for this game is to have less pointless time sinks. this. specific. game. it doesn't have to be the same way as other games work, but it should stop being so backwards and exclusionary.

if people didn't want all encompassing searchable? TTC would not exist and would NOT be as popular as it is right now. for all that "we like the game as it is" a suspicious number of those same people take advantage of TTC. and master merchant.

Let me discuss a bit more if I may...

There’s a difference between the world of eso and the users experience of playing ZOS’ game.

I’m not selectively ignoring what the user experiences however I am particular to always seperate the user from the game world. There’s a story I had of role play long ago......in short I learned that when playing online in a shared space my human isn’t my character and it’s very important that the two are always understood as separate.

Maybe “bunk” is a typo and it should read bank?
The bank exists in the game world as an actual bank. Traveling to other towns and having access to your items is explained or possible due to the traveling NPCs, merchants, horse and carts and the occasional NPC dialogue or NPCs found in need or dead.

Guild banks and guild stores....why they work for ones you’re in and ones you’re not in. It’s explained in the NPC dialogue and backed up as the GM establishes the “account” with the NPC. It’s obviously seperate as it’s members only, it doesn’t need a further explanation as it’s guild permission based not automatic.

Mail in the world of TES exists by means of NPCs traveling to you with messages so while that’s not a literal NPC interaction in this game it does happen on some quests so it’s there.

Instant communication between unknown soulless and unknown heroes with souls....No sorry. I have to stop and clarify....regardless of your UI settings and platform no one knows anyone, their story, their intent or even if another exists. So let’s consiser if you’re playing with no zone text chat, no console chat, no nameplates, and use only /s absent of a player name.

That’s the game world....in context

Regarding me changing the conversation....
I’m not accusing you of trying to make this whole game exactly like another I’m simply pointing out as I wrote before, you are seeking for this game to add features you’ve experienced in other games. Take your pick...the feature you want as described exists in some other games. Maybe not exactly as you describe but it’s the same.

Also, it’s not a compromise that you’re describing it’s your hope to add a feature. It’s not a situation where anything needs or has to change so there’s no compromise. Also whose to say anyone who is in the position to allow or deny any request is even considering anything? Just pointing out it’s not a compromise, it’s just a desire you have or a feature request.

There’s nothing wrong with your desire to want to reduce time syncs but the results of such desires has a direct impact on everyone playing the game. I like how the game works in terms of what we are discussing. I’m open to some changes but the basis to me works just fine. I agree your ideas of change don’t have to be the same as other games but the features you’re asking for as very similar to some other games so that’s how the request is interpreted. See it’s not the specifics of the feature you’re asking for but the experience that’s similar.

Believe it or not some of us enjoy what you refer to as exclusionary or limiting. What I can tell you is there are far fewer people who are using add-ons and such or external websites than how your comment reads.

Simply knowing there are three platforms where two don’t allow add-ons is part of it. The other part is that people use different means of doing things. I’m not saying there aren’t many who do, and I’m not even saying that the many who do don’t put number those who don’t but I do know it’s far fewer than how your comment reads.

Thing is....this has been discussed from pre PC closed beta up until now and so will something be added, I’d argue yes but is that better .... many will argue yes, many will argue no and many will not say a thing.

I’m just sharing my point of view on it