danno8 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Templar. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the changes on the Solar Barrage and Eclipse abilities.

Once I get in to PTS I will test, but I gotta tell you, unless Solar Barrage has a HUGE dot tick there is no way it can be good with a 1 second cast time.

You guys (developers) really need to keep in mind what is already available:

Elemental Wall: 8 seconds, no cast time, big DoT
Blazing Spear : 8 seconds, no cast time medium DoT, but with Burning light proc chance
Vampires Bane/ Reflective Light: 6/12 seconds, no cast time, big DoT

Do any of these have a cast time? No. If you give a skill a cast time it needs to be accompanied with a big burst, and if it is melee range, it can not be interruptible.

Remember when you made Wrecking Blow, Heavy Attacks and all melee skills generally uninterruptable? You guys did that for a reason. Please try to remember what that reason was.

Enough with the cast time skills on Templars already! We are constantly locked up in some sort of cast time, channel or animation. Jesus! We can barely pick up any kind of synergy because when the cast time or channel is finally over the synergy is gone.

Enough!

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

For how much does the new Solar barrage tick everytime it pulses?
Does it tick 4 times over this six seconds for the amount of damage the old barrage used to (on each tick)?
If that is the case then it is a stronger DoT than Blockade and actually a really big buff to Magicka templar.
I see the cast time as a counterargument but remember that puncturing sweeps is a channel we are used to that behaves in timing exactly like darkflare so it's interchangeable. Really interested how hard it hits though.

On PTS Dark Flare does like 6k DMG for me, the new solar barrage does 3x 2k.

Destruent wrote: »

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

For how much does the new Solar barrage tick everytime it pulses?
Does it tick 4 times over this six seconds for the amount of damage the old barrage used to (on each tick)?
If that is the case then it is a stronger DoT than Blockade and actually a really big buff to Magicka templar.
I see the cast time as a counterargument but remember that puncturing sweeps is a channel we are used to that behaves in timing exactly like darkflare so it's interchangeable. Really interested how hard it hits though.

On PTS Dark Flare does like 6k DMG for me, the new solar barrage does 3x 2k.

Thanks!!
Ok it ticks three times nice to know might be a considerable Dot not as strong as Blockade though.

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

For how much does the new Solar barrage tick everytime it pulses?
Does it tick 4 times over this six seconds for the amount of damage the old barrage used to (on each tick)?
If that is the case then it is a stronger DoT than Blockade and actually a really big buff to Magicka templar.
I see the cast time as a counterargument but remember that puncturing sweeps is a channel we are used to that behaves in timing exactly like darkflare so it's interchangeable. Really interested how hard it hits though.

On PTS Dark Flare does like 6k DMG for me, the new solar barrage does 3x 2k.

Thanks!!
Ok it ticks three times nice to know might be a considerable Dot not as strong as Blockade though.

Real quick testing:

While Dark Flare is just over 11k for the test character, Solar flare is just over 4k per tick. It is 3 ticks, there is no initial damage tick at all.

The DPS for just Solar Barrage with the above setup is 2235 over a 1 minute span.
Blazing Spear is around 2591 over a 1 minute span.
Wall of Elements is around 4000 over a 1 minute span.
Vamps Bane is just under 2000 over a 1 minute span.

The biggest problem is that it is 6 seconds, so it WILL fall off before you can get around to refreshing it, while both BS and WoE at 8 seconds, and Vamp Bane at 12 seconds mean you can refresh them without them falling off.

If I could get on my main I could try swapping out some other skills with it to see the impact on overall DPS, but I can't right now due to the problem ZoS is having with character log ins at the moment.

My gut feeling though is that it is just too short a DoT to use in a full rotation, and with the 1 second cast time it also eats up the GCD of a spammable like sweeps.

I don't see how it will help overall DPS at all, and again using a 1 second casted spell in melee range is terrible in PvP for obvious reasons, and as stated above not optimal at all in PvE either.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Can anyone on PTS share some tooltips for the new Solar Barrage? Would like to see some actual numbers before I go cry in my coffee.

Just did.

On a badly specced template:

Impulse: 2787 magicka cost, 3436 instant damage in 6 meter radius (+1 minor mangle debuff)

Solar Barrage: 2787 magicka cost, 4266 damage after 1 second cast time AND 2 second delays (and then another pulse 2 seconds later and then another pulse 2 seconds after that) in 8 meter radius. Higher tool tip, though impulse gets +10% penetration. Still Solar Barrage is going to put out more a lot more damage per single cast.

I'm pretty sure templars are going to want this for trash fights, even with the cast time and I'm guessing even with boss + add fights it's still worth using.

I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole in PvP, but for PvE content the skill is absolutely improved, no doubt about it.

BTW: tool tip is wrong, says it no longer has a cast time (obvious it's intended that it does).

Could somebody on PTS tell us if Eclipse returns damage on Cliff Racer? It looks like this skill is going to be severely outclassed by Defensive Posture now, but if there was any sort of counter for pigeonspam that'd be good for the game. I guess. Well, not really if nobody slots it, but it's a start.

Why can't eclipse give the enemy player a new debuff called minor confusion and deal x% of the damage they deal returned to them.

Minor confusion: you have a 5% chance for your attacks to miss their target.

So the base ability would apply minor confusion and deal no damage.

Morph one:
Minor confusion + deal x% of the damage they deal returned to the caster

Morph two:
Minor confusion + x% of the damage casted by the caster heals you

The ability will act as a dot so only cleansable. When the ability ends it will not give cc immunity

As a heavy user on Unstable core, I'd say the change is a very much needed boost to defense for the templar. I'll need to test it on the pts soon though.

On live, unstable core gives magplar the burst it needs to compete without valkyn skoria. Fully buffed, it's around 10k, and while this would be around 5k in PvP before mitigation, consider this:
- it's juicy AOE DMG. Everyone around the target gets that DMG. Add in another AOE Ultimate+ jabs and you'll have pressure for multiple enemies.
- undodgeable. Good luck nightblade looking to dodge roll or go into stealth. Also breaks stealth.
- procs minor sorcery. Every little bit helps and you have easy access to major sorcery buff.
- 3.5 second timer let's you decide when you want to burst an enemy. Skoria requires dots+ a cooldown and you need to make sure it's hitting the target you want to burst.
- very much hidden by purfying light. Even I have trouble seeing it if it's on my enemy lol.
- scales off master at arms CP+ fire staff making it stronger. But swords are better for Templars, 5% boost from them also boosts burning light procs which cannot be increased by staffs. Burning light also scales off master at arms+ elemental expert (5k procs for me!)

Using it as the sole skill is not fun. But together with other sources, its consistent burst you control when it hits.

This change will add a debuff utility and we'll make running Unstable core more sexy for Templars looking to escape from the value skoria/HA pigeonhole.

Burst example video:
https://youtu.be/bXmv1iWLEqY

Always awesome RNG when it doesn't count for real.

On a template, I got a 470K score in VMA which isn't terrible. This is my impression of the two new skills:

I think people lose sight of the fact that a skill has to be more than useful, it''s got to be better than the alternatives that can replace it on an ability bar. Is the new Eclipse and new Solar Barrage useful and serve a function? Yes. Are the more appealing than the skills I have to take off my bar to fit them into my build? I don't think so.

Solar Barrage: People might not know the channel no longer snares the templar. Not as debilitating but I still hate cast-times though.

To make room for Solar Barrage, I replaced Luminous Shards. For finishing vMA, it's a close call. Each has its uses. Barrage is going to be more PBAoE on DPS trash pulls, Shards is going to make for a smoother rotation (not to be underestimated) and can be used at range. I personally think the cast time and the powerful synergy will make me default to Luminous shards.

For PvP, I would consider using Solar Barrrage if I ran in a ball-group, and only then. Cast-time in open world is a bad idea.

Eclipse:

I thought I'd like this and I didn't. The old issues with the original spell are still there:

• The original skill did not effect CC immune targets at all. If you take the Total Dark morph cast this on a CC immune target, it literally is a waste of some 3.5K to 4K magicka because it does absolutely nothing. Ouch.
• The skill could never effect elite NPCs, mini-bosses, to say nothing of bosses. It still can't. Am I really supposed to slot a skill on my bar that I can't use in the most important fights? Wow, that is asking a lot.
• The fact that this skill must be aimed and hit a specific opponent makes it often more trouble than it's worth. DK, Wardens, and defensive posture users just press a button and they are protected even from bosses. That's easy. Templars have to deal with the unreliable tab-targeting system in this game just to protect themselves against some eligible opponents and some attacks.

The new version doesn't do enough to make it worth while

• "Direct damage" is certainly better than just projectiles, but even the unthinking non-CC breaking AI mobs were using an unsettling amount of attacks that were damaging, snaring, CCing, me. Did not feel very protected. Rather use Harness magicka since it shields me Vs. every opponent and every attack in the game, as well as aiding me with resoruce managment.
• The old Total Dark did damage, this one doesn't.

Back in 1.6 when I cast Total Dark, it reflected virtually everything in the game (even things like weapon enchantments and some ultimates), healed me, and did damage. And even then it was considered niche because enemy players could CC break it and, unlike the PvP resource guards, it cant simply be recasted on CC immune opponents. What we have on the PTS isn't as good and retains the drawbacks.

No ability in the game has received as many changes and reforms as Eclipse and every time it ultimately proves to be unpopular with most players. At some point, there comes a time when the fundamental core elements of the skill need to be recognized as unworkable, impractical, too niche, etc., and to just restart over from scratch.

I think I speak for many templars when I say Eclipse should be totally transformed to act as a unique CC that no other class has access to. Zos has given Dragonknights and Sorcerers what only Nightbaldes once had: unblockable, undogeable CC.
WoW. That's ... powerful. And what do templars have? Javelin, a skill that can be blocked, dodged, reflected, and provides no debuff after-effect. Especially frustrating since we once had Blinding Flashes. Please do NOT give us some carbon copy re-skin of what they have, rather give us something that we, and I'm even talking about the few remaining templar tank diehards, can meaningful contribute in a group environment even if our DPS isn't raid worthy (and it won't be until Sweeps and Radiant Destruction get fixed the way Sorc and NB executes got fixed).

Joy_Division wrote: »

Always awesome RNG when it doesn't count for real.

On a template, I got a 470K score in VMA which isn't terrible. This is my impression of the two new skills:

I think people lose sight of the fact that a skill has to be more than useful, it''s got to be better than the alternatives that can replace it on an ability bar. Is the new Eclipse and new Solar Barrage useful and serve a function? Yes. Are the more appealing than the skills I have to take off my bar to fit them into my build? I don't think so.

Solar Barrage: People might not know the channel no longer snares the templar. Not as debilitating but I still hate cast-times though.

To make room for Solar Barrage, I replaced Luminous Shards. For finishing vMA, it's a close call. Each has its uses. Barrage is going to be more PBAoE on DPS trash pulls, Shards is going to make for a smoother rotation (not to be underestimated) and can be used at range. I personally think the cast time and the powerful synergy will make me default to Luminous shards.

For PvP, I would consider using Solar Barrrage if I ran in a ball-group, and only then. Cast-time in open world is a bad idea.

Eclipse:

I thought I'd like this and I didn't. The old issues with the original spell are still there:

• The original skill did not effect CC immune targets at all. If you take the Total Dark morph cast this on a CC immune target, it literally is a waste of some 3.5K to 4K magicka because it does absolutely nothing. Ouch.
• The skill could never effect elite NPCs, mini-bosses, to say nothing of bosses. It still can't. Am I really supposed to slot a skill on my bar that I can't use in the most important fights? Wow, that is asking a lot.
• The fact that this skill must be aimed and hit a specific opponent makes it often more trouble than it's worth. DK, Wardens, and defensive posture users just press a button and they are protected even from bosses. That's easy. Templars have to deal with the unreliable tab-targeting system in this game just to protect themselves against some eligible opponents and some attacks.

The new version doesn't do enough to make it worth while

• "Direct damage" is certainly better than just projectiles, but even the unthinking non-CC breaking AI mobs were using an unsettling amount of attacks that were damaging, snaring, CCing, me. Did not feel very protected. Rather use Harness magicka since it shields me Vs. every opponent and every attack in the game, as well as aiding me with resoruce managment.
• The old Total Dark did damage, this one doesn't.

Back in 1.6 when I cast Total Dark, it reflected virtually everything in the game (even things like weapon enchantments and some ultimates), healed me, and did damage. And even then it was considered niche because enemy players could CC break it and, unlike the PvP resource guards, it cant simply be recasted on CC immune opponents. What we have on the PTS isn't as good and retains the drawbacks.

No ability in the game has received as many changes and reforms as Eclipse and every time it ultimately proves to be unpopular with most players. At some point, there comes a time when the fundamental core elements of the skill need to be recognized as unworkable, impractical, too niche, etc., and to just restart over from scratch.

I think I speak for many templars when I say Eclipse should be totally transformed to act as a unique CC that no other class has access to. Zos has given Dragonknights and Sorcerers what only Nightbaldes once had: unblockable, undogeable CC.
WoW. That's ... powerful. And what do templars have? Javelin, a skill that can be blocked, dodged, reflected, and provides no debuff after-effect. Especially frustrating since we once had Blinding Flashes. Please do NOT give us some carbon copy re-skin of what they have, rather give us something that we, and I'm even talking about the few remaining templar tank diehards, can meaningful contribute in a group environment even if our DPS isn't raid worthy (and it won't be until Sweeps and Radiant Destruction get fixed the way Sorc and NB executes got fixed).

Requoting this whole thing to double the chances that @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom etc read it. @Joy_Division does Eclipse return damage on Cliff Racer?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Always awesome RNG when it doesn't count for real.

On a template, I got a 470K score in VMA which isn't terrible. This is my impression of the two new skills:

I think people lose sight of the fact that a skill has to be more than useful, it''s got to be better than the alternatives that can replace it on an ability bar. Is the new Eclipse and new Solar Barrage useful and serve a function? Yes. Are the more appealing than the skills I have to take off my bar to fit them into my build? I don't think so.

Solar Barrage: People might not know the channel no longer snares the templar. Not as debilitating but I still hate cast-times though.

To make room for Solar Barrage, I replaced Luminous Shards. For finishing vMA, it's a close call. Each has its uses. Barrage is going to be more PBAoE on DPS trash pulls, Shards is going to make for a smoother rotation (not to be underestimated) and can be used at range. I personally think the cast time and the powerful synergy will make me default to Luminous shards.

For PvP, I would consider using Solar Barrrage if I ran in a ball-group, and only then. Cast-time in open world is a bad idea.

Eclipse:

I thought I'd like this and I didn't. The old issues with the original spell are still there:

• The original skill did not effect CC immune targets at all. If you take the Total Dark morph cast this on a CC immune target, it literally is a waste of some 3.5K to 4K magicka because it does absolutely nothing. Ouch.
• The skill could never effect elite NPCs, mini-bosses, to say nothing of bosses. It still can't. Am I really supposed to slot a skill on my bar that I can't use in the most important fights? Wow, that is asking a lot.
• The fact that this skill must be aimed and hit a specific opponent makes it often more trouble than it's worth. DK, Wardens, and defensive posture users just press a button and they are protected even from bosses. That's easy. Templars have to deal with the unreliable tab-targeting system in this game just to protect themselves against some eligible opponents and some attacks.

The new version doesn't do enough to make it worth while

• "Direct damage" is certainly better than just projectiles, but even the unthinking non-CC breaking AI mobs were using an unsettling amount of attacks that were damaging, snaring, CCing, me. Did not feel very protected. Rather use Harness magicka since it shields me Vs. every opponent and every attack in the game, as well as aiding me with resoruce managment.
• The old Total Dark did damage, this one doesn't.

Back in 1.6 when I cast Total Dark, it reflected virtually everything in the game (even things like weapon enchantments and some ultimates), healed me, and did damage. And even then it was considered niche because enemy players could CC break it and, unlike the PvP resource guards, it cant simply be recasted on CC immune opponents. What we have on the PTS isn't as good and retains the drawbacks.

No ability in the game has received as many changes and reforms as Eclipse and every time it ultimately proves to be unpopular with most players. At some point, there comes a time when the fundamental core elements of the skill need to be recognized as unworkable, impractical, too niche, etc., and to just restart over from scratch.

I think I speak for many templars when I say Eclipse should be totally transformed to act as a unique CC that no other class has access to. Zos has given Dragonknights and Sorcerers what only Nightbaldes once had: unblockable, undogeable CC.
WoW. That's ... powerful. And what do templars have? Javelin, a skill that can be blocked, dodged, reflected, and provides no debuff after-effect. Especially frustrating since we once had Blinding Flashes. Please do NOT give us some carbon copy re-skin of what they have, rather give us something that we, and I'm even talking about the few remaining templar tank diehards, can meaningful contribute in a group environment even if our DPS isn't raid worthy (and it won't be until Sweeps and Radiant Destruction get fixed the way Sorc and NB executes got fixed).

This is basically my conclusions as well.

If Eclipse ditched CC-breakable portion of the skill so it worked on bosses and didn't provide easy CC-immunity it would be useable. And it should since it doesn't reflect any more, only deals moderate damage like any other skill. There is nothing "CC" about the skill in the PTS version. It doesn't slow, stun, reflect, disorient, root...nothing. Why can it be CC broken again?

If Solar Barrage ditched the cast time, then it may be useable as well. Certainly would add to the "house".

Neoauspex wrote: »

. @Joy_Division does Eclipse return damage on Cliff Racer?

@Neoauspex

I do not know because I tested it in vMA. In my estimation whether it does or doesn't will not matter.

If I am a Wadren opponent and if I am holding block, have used CC break the previous 7 seconds, or used an immovable potion, then you will not Eclipse me and you will waste 3.5K magicka. If I am eclipsed, I will simply CC break it, enjoy the 7 seconds of CC immunity, and then proceed to spam birds.

I definitely understand your frustration with being bird spammed.