Defilted wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

According to many people in this thread, levelling 1-50 doesn't take very long at all. And given that CPs are account-wide, most of that work is already done. There's no benefit to an auto-levelled character of any level, and with regards to this thread, it doesn't solve the need for class change.

Leveling 1 to 50 does not take very long. So if the people in this thread are correct why do we need a class change token? You make the point for me. My idea does not require a players to spend additional money and also makes switching to a new class very easy. However my idea does require development dollars with no foreseeable return in additional ESO sub dollars.

As I said at least twice already in this thread, the want for a class change token has nothing to do with levelling. And I don't think it has much to do with FOTM builds either. Sure that may be one interested audience, but it's primarily for the people who care about keeping their progress in the umpteen other things the character has done:

Enodoc wrote: »

1500 quests, 1000 POIs, 180 riding skill-ups, 366 skyshards, 297 lorebooks, 3000 Eidetic books, 6 weapon lines, 3 armour lines, 5 Guild lines, 6 crafting lines, 4 world lines, and 1200 achievements.

Your class choice and class progression has no bearing on any of these, so if you just want to try a new class, you shouldn't have to start all these things from scratch as well. Your suggestion of an auto-boost to any given level doesn't help that at all.

Stuhlfleisch wrote: »

Bump

Try not to do that. You'll just end up getting the thread locked.

Defilted wrote: »

The majority reason people want a class change token is to change to the FOTM build class.

As already million times said before - make this token like about 5000 crowns and 1 year cooldown or just one change per account. People think twice before even buy it.

Would have liked an "I'm impartial" option

Time goes by and zos still is oblivious to these threads, sadly

Defilted wrote: »

@Enodoc
So the whole issue is achievements and horses? I do not get it, but if that is the issue, then good luck...

I was actually thinking more of quests and skill lines, but sure

Stuhlfleisch wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Stuhlfleisch wrote: »

Bump

Try not to do that. You'll just end up getting the thread locked.

Why does writing "bump" get threads locked?

It's considered spamming, and is against the forum rules.

I can't see a problem with this if it will make the game more fun for some players and bring in a little cash as well.

Now please bump my thread too with some kind words :0)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371589/zos-can-we-pretty-please-craft-jewelry-in-our-crafted-sets#latest

White wabbit wrote: »

So all those that put some effect in and levelled one of each class gets two fingers stuck up due to some that can't put a little effort in and level a new character , one of the benefits of level a class is you learn how to play that class , but people just want it handed to them on a plate

I think you're either (a) misunderstanding what is being asked, or (b)not considering the whole process. I don't want you to think I'm snapping/arguing. I'm just trying to explain how things would actually go, because I don't feel like you're considering benefits, drawbacks, and efforts of what you are comparing.

All of the following is baseds simply on what what was in the original post, where I want to emphasize that the OP is asking for a class change. It's not adding a new character or leveling a character to 50.

Cross-Class Player Benefits
The essential point to make is extra effort = extra utility. You shouldn't need to put in X effort for a level 50 Nightblade and Y effort for a level 50 Dragonknight. It should simply be X effort for a level 50 character.
When it's like that, it's simply [Effort] x [Characters] = [Utility].

When you reference "all those that put some [effort] in and levelled one of each class", I'm assuming you mean that they have at least 4 (we'll exclude the Warden) character slots and spent the time to level each one to 50.
Person A spent the time and leveled five characters to 50. Person A has a level 50 Sorcerer, Templar, Nightblade, and Dragonknight.

Let's say someone else only has one character.
Person B only spent the time to level one character to 50. Person B has a level 50 Templar.

Person B decided they want to play a Sorcerer and instead of making a new character and leveling them up, they decide to use a class change on their templar.
Person B only spent the time to level one character to 50. Person B now has a level 50 Sorcerer. (They no longer have a level 50 Templar!)

If something happens and Sorcerers get nerfed to worthlessness, Person A can just not play their Sorcerer as much and play another character. Person B has to choose between (A)creating a new character and leveling them to 50 (B) pay AGAIN to change them to something else--where they'll have to level the skill lines, or (C) play a worthless class --or quit playing ESO-- until there is a fix.

And then, if they fix the issue or end up over-buffing Sorcerers and they're OP, Person A just needs to start playing the Sorcerer again. With the skills fully leveled, and bars already set.
Person B (matching the option they chose) has to do one of the following:
(A) go back to their sorcerer. In this case, they did some of the effort that Player A did to get some of the utility back.
(B) Either play a class that they don't like as much, or pay to change the class back to the sorcerer (meaning they basically paid 2 class-change tokens for temporary enjoyment that Person A got for free), and still has to re-level the sorcerer skill line.
(C) Nothing, in which the game was harder for them, and/or they may have had to miss out on content. Person A probably enjoyed the game more than them.


The only way someone can even skip some (definitely not all) of the effort that you may have done is by (for example) leveling up 4 sorcerers and using 3 class changes to have all four (which requires purchasing three class changes. And I strongly doubt the Effort vs Cost is that big of a deal.

And really, unless they turn in a ton of master writs, or actively avoiding class skills (or attacking) they still have to learn the skills. As the OP said, the class skill lines would reset to 0. So, that means you still need to work your way up to max class skills and get the passives.


Who Class Changes Truly Benefit
The true benefit of a class change is the OTHER content. It's achievements, motifs, trait research, etc. Very few of that is class-related, and most of that really only matters to those who play the hardest content in the game (I guess they say that some classes are better at Maelstrom Arena and trials content and such).

And this is another time to give the important reminder that it is not duplicated. A Sorcerer Master Crafter isn't different from a Templar Master Crafter. And changing your Templar Master Crafter to a Sorcerer doesn't double your efforts. It simply means you don't have to start over.

If you want three master crafter characters, or even three characters with full bag space, the class change token won't help you.

Some Concluding Thoughts

I know people can still be against it, but I want to make sure people know for sure what they're disagreeing to. Once you know the actual benefits, agreement or disagreement is simply based on personal opinion.

I've personally had to change my character based on class.(Actually it's the opposite of my earler example.)
I started with a Sorcerer character, got them to 50, had max horse training and badges, completed the the main and home faction questline, completed Mages and Fighers' Guild questlines, gave the motifs, and was nearly finished with all trait research, then I realized I really wanted her to be a Templar. I had to create a new character (nearly the exact same race and look, a similar name; basically the exact same character, but as a templar) and level her up and redo the content.. And when my templar pretty much caught up, I deleted my sorcerer.
In my personal situation, the crown cost (assuming it would be on par with race change motifs) would have been absolutely worth saving the duplicated time and effort, because I had to do content twice for rewards that I only wanted once.

Having done that, I would have preferred to just be able to change my characters' class, re-level their skills and move on. I don't agree that just because I had to do it the hard way that someone else should need to. I feel empathy for those that find themselves in the same boat, and even if I like Templars above any new class that comes out, and never use a class change token, I would want other people to have the option (even if it costs real money) to avoid that.
And honestly, when I'm thinking of it more like that, I'm more supportive of it. I think it my last post and back with the Warden, I was neutral because it was was helpful, but not necessary, and technically could be considered the players' fault. But, at the end of the day, I believe video games are for enjoyment, and people already have enough to grind at endgame.

Of course you may not feel that way, and depending on how you weigh different factors in the game (and to be frank, based on a lot of reasons I see against this type of thing, your level of selfishness), you might see reasons to be against it. Or be neutral.
In fact, it's possible that despite what I thought, you had accurately considered the benefits and drawbacks before your post.

I just think the worst thing people can do is try to shut something down because they are misinformed.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kind of ironic that you think people are too stupid to realize what a class change is so you feel the need to write an essay explaining it

First, I apologize if it seemed like I thought you were stupid. It's a common thing for people to hear of an aspect that seems like it may be bad for them, and automatically get defensive about it and shut it down. I've seen and/or had it happen from anything from food prices to politics to health advice. I don't think that it's stupidity. I think it's a natural reaction. It prevents you from getting sucked into notoriously bad things like timeshares and unwanted subscriptions, but can cause people to react harshly to something that won't actually hurt them.

My only understanding of what affected your opinion was what you gave in your old post, and my post was explanatory based on what you wrote. I only really saw two points, and they didn't seem completely accurate.

"...put some effect in and levelled one of each class gets two fingers stuck up due to some that can't put a little effort in and level a new character.."
My understanding was that you were saying that the class change tokens would give people get bigger benefits than someone who leveled up each class to 50.
If that was what you meant, then it didn't seem like you accurately weighed the pros and the cons of each option. The main issue that you mentioned was effort. So, I explained the amount of effort that each side would need to put in, and gave an example scenario to show you that putting in more effort had a reward.

If I misunderstood your sentence (maybe you were referring specifically to FotMs), then I overgeneralized who you were referring to, an I'm sorry. I thought you were referring to basically anyone that wanted a Race Change token instead of starting a new character over. But, I also don't think that you should have completely shut down the idea without considering the other people that would have been affected.

"..So all those that , one of the benefits of level a class is you learn how to play that class.."
Considering they still have to level the skill line to unlock everything, that's not necessarily true, especially with alts. If someone wants to learn the class, they'll pay attention and learn about their class as they unlock and level up skills. If they don't care to learn the class, they'll learn a few essential moves to get by (like Templar's Sweeps).


I'm not saying you have no valid reasons to be against it. I'm saying that the reasons that you provided in that post weren't completely accurate, and I was under the impression that you simply thought "They instantly get a level 50 templar?! That's not fair!"

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

and then deliver a great example of a stupid choice

There were other factors in my decision to delete the character. I can see why you think it was stupid, since I based the explanation and example on class strengths. In that case (where you'd be willing to do class changes based on some patch issue), it would have been stupid for me to delete a sorcerer if I ever thought I'd ever play one. It's not the case for me. Having a sorc was fun, but I realized I enjoy the game more with just one character, and since I like healer-types, templar was best.

My main point was that while your post seemed to say that a class change token would waste the effort of someone that leveled every class, I was trying to point out that not only is that person's effort not wasted, but that the absence of a class change token has caused other people to waste even more time just to change a decision they made within the first hour of playing the game.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

The amount of people switching to FotM builds would escalate. ZOS shines with not well thought through balance changes that often lead to stuff being exploitable and broken. What stops cheap ass FotM players now is their lack of dedication, whis is the very basis of the fotm behaviour. Then they would simply pay a few bucks and swamp cyro or trials with what is broken during the respective patch. Would be a shame when cyro consists entirely out of magsorcs or what the forum deems to be OP.

I can see how unlimited class changes could be a problem depending on how expensive the item is, and how much of the FotM base can afford to do it.

So it might not be too bad to make it a somewhat higher price point to where people that are only doing it to replace mains can afford it if they really want the utility, while too expensive for most FotM players.

And there's also the possibility of controlling the availability of the token. If they let you purchase one, like the starter pack, and provide one with each Chapter, it seems like it should make most people happy. It would allow them to see if they like the new class, while not allowing even richer ones to follow the meta.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ever thought about why Zeni puts a timer on your horse training or whatever annoying thing you have to do every 20 hours? Because that is how they ensure that people play the game, to brighten some statistics on how many people play each day and how many characters are made. ZOS wont let you skip the grind because that's how they keep this game alive, how they earn money.

I don't think that it's simply "ZOS likes grinding so ZOS won't give it to you."
Unless ZOS has officially stated that they'll never allow class changes, I doubt that it's completely off the table.

To me, it feels like ZOS knows they have plenty of grind-y things at end-game to hold people over at this point, and are looking more towards purchases. They're putting more and more of the grinds we hate most into the crown store. The main issue is the high price.

The total cost is a lot For 10 days of horse training, you'd need 1,000 crowns. Each research scroll knocks off a day for one craft for 400 crowns. and then a majority of the motifs are 5,000 crowns (and most of the motifs that are cheaper than that are easily obtainable in-game).

So, the price will probably depend on how much ZOS tends to make on those. The class change tokens aren't for extra characters, or anything, so they probably wouldn't lose much from the overall purchases.If they don't often have people shelling out a few hundred dollars to insta-max, then depending on the sales, they could find that selling Race Changes at a certain price would get some people to pay more than they would to buy individual stuff.

Or it's possible that they put it high up in the Crown Crates. The people that want them to stay meta would potentially be dumping tons of money before probably buying it with gems. Some people would either never use them or exchange them for gems, and somewhere along, it may occasionally find an owner who wants it.

It would kinda suck, and I can see some people being against either of those, but I wouldn't mind. It seems like it'd be easier to be patient and wait for a crown sale or something, and know you can do more endgame content, rather than having to replay content you already completed, or even farm gear for the character and stuff. Or if it's too expensive or you don't do crates, it could make you feel like choosing the grind is more fiscally responsible (and sometimes choosing to do something to save money makes it more enjoyable than doing something because it's the only way).

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

These things have nothing to do with being selfish.

Those aren't selfish, and when I re-read what I said, I realized that it came off like I thought every reason was selfish, when it's not all of them. I do think that actually caring the game as a whole, like the economy, game balancing, and balancing player enjoyment are valid concerns and when discussed can work towards a plan that benefits as many people as possible and inconveniences people as little as possible (in cases where something could be an inconvenience to people for it or people against it, it should go with what's the smaller inconvenience).

And even if not, if it's on actual principles (like people being against Crown Crates because they feel like it's promoting gambling), whether or not I agree, I can understand where they are coming from.

It's mainly that I just hear a lot of (what is essentially):
"You should have to do this because I had to do this/that."
"Why can't you be inconvenienced for hours/months so I'm not inconvenienced for seconds/minutes?"
"You shouldn't be allowed to do something, because having the option ruins my immersion."

They all basically say "I value my time and enjoyment of the game infinitely more than yours". And while technically, I can't stop them from thinking that way, when people act like that, there's no compromise. You can't reason with them because they just don't care, if you cater to them, you're just hurting yourself, and if you get selfish, you're acting just like them.

The reasons you just gave are absolutely valid reasons, and I'm happy to have the discussion. I understand that I won't necessarily be right on some things, or that we might have disagreements of opinion, but at least when it ends we'd hopefully have more accurate and inclusive view of the situation.

Just to show zos how incompetent they are. Having 240 sorcs in cyrodil

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stuhlfleisch wrote: »

I really would like, to have this option open, like the race, sex, appearence and name change. :P

Either that or get rid of classes as we know them and let us learn everything... but limit passives based on what is slotted in your bar. That notion will never happen though, but it would be nice. A person can dream.

This would be amazing and make ESO a borderline sandbox.

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

It seems nothing was mentioned for the next DLC regarding these tokens, but lets not give up ppl!

I am hoping and observing. :P

Eh, I feel like it's kind of a meh change, like all you would keep is your mount training and stuff, and honestly people with lots of money would just switch around to FOTM classes all the time. Plus I have to somewhat agree that the fact you can change what is suppose to be a decided choice would be kinda eh.

That being said I can understand that especially for more casual players with less time this could be useful, but honestly I think I'm overall kind of against this change.

That being said, I wouldn't QQ and rage if it was implemented, but I definitely wouldn't use it, and I don't really think I agree with it's implementation.

Hm, maybe something will come after the Halloween events... hope dies last afterall.