Let's talk about Magicka Warden... it still sucks

Thogard · September 2017

Mag wardens currently have the highest *burst* damage in PvP due to so many of their skills lining up and hitting at the same time.

But while their burst is higher than a sorc's, their defense suffers. It's not bad, especially considering that heal ult, but it's not great either.

Increasing mag warden DPS for PvE would have to leave the beetles and the birds alone. They'd need a ground target dot or something that wouldn't be effective in PvP.

What we cannot do is give them an execute. They'd be 1second combo killing everyone in PvP that isn't holding down the block button.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

Thogard wrote: »

Mag wardens currently have the highest *burst* damage in PvP due to so many of their skills lining up and hitting at the same time.

But while their burst is higher than a sorc's, their defense suffers. It's not bad, especially considering that heal ult, but it's not great either.

Increasing mag warden DPS for PvE would have to leave the beetles and the birds alone. They'd need a ground target dot or something that wouldn't be effective in PvP.

What we cannot do is give them an execute. They'd be 1second combo killing everyone in PvP that isn't holding down the block button.

Burst is useless in PvE, so I wouldn't expect them to buff that. Buff their DoTs and make bear a single-bar ability.

kargen27 · September 2017

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

Good thing then that PvP and PvE rely on different types of damage.

Warden has high burst damage, which is useless in PvE. So just buff their DoTs, which are useless in PvP.

Or just make cliff racer dodgeable (that's the only thing that makes them "OP" in PvP).

Are you still going on about this? Get a clue. Cliff Racer is dodgeable, from several different sources. But since dodge roll isan't one of them, everyone still cries about it.

I never said magicka warden was OP in PvP (they suck there too, as you can see from PvP leader boards). I was just giving a suggestion to the whiners. If ZOS doesn't want to buff PvE DPS because kids will cry that they're OP, I'd rather they just make cliff racer dodgeable (but with a faster cast or something).

@MLGProPlayer

You obviously didn't read my comment about the specific part of your post, because Cliff Racer IS *** DODGEABLE.

No you can not dodge it. You can block it.

Betsararie · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

land make bear a single-bar ability

Now THAT would be out of control. That bear puts out way too much damage as it is.

If the bear were banned from PvP, then I would be more in favor of this.

As it is now in PvP it's just an annoying, skill-less variable that occasionally can put out high damage.

tinythinker · September 2017

Thogard wrote: »

Increasing mag warden DPS for PvE would have to leave the beetles and the birds alone. They'd need a ground target dot or something that wouldn't be effective in PvP.

So boost their ice AoE ability. One morph is based on max health and is centered on the caster, the other morph is targetable and based on max magicka+spell damage.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Now THAT would be out of control. That bear puts out way too much damage as it is.

If the bear were banned from PvP, then I would be in favor of this.

As it is now in PvP it's just an annoying, skill-less variable that occasionally can put out high damage.

The bear contributes around 3-4k of a warden's DPS in PvE. Without the bear, wardens top out at ~28-29k DPS, which isn't even close to viable for any kind of endgame content.

It also dies instantly to boss AOE in PvE, making it almost completely useless (as a dedicated ultimate) in all trial and DLC dungeon boss fights.

It needs to be a part of the warden PvE kit somehow as the class was designed around the bear contributing most of its damage. But at the same time, magicka warden needs to be able to slot a proper AOE ultimate (magicka classes that only deal single target damage are useless as stamina classes do the same thing, just MUCH better).

letsdothedungeonslow · September 2017

Do some people actually think that balance means every class should do equal damage?

Then what would be the point of having classes at all?

I don't mind my magDK doing less damage than my sorc, because they're more flexible and can off tank much better, they have chains and talons and a kick ass way of one shotting the trolls on vMA by halfway across the room.

Wardens are also flexible, and can do heals, damage and tanks, whereas sorcs are more or less a one trick pony.

The balance issues that I see is that in PvP certain skills are OP. The Warden has two of these.

If you can't do 25k with a Warden, just live with it or make a sorc.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

letsdothedungeonslow wrote: »

Do some people actually think that balance means every class should do equal damage?

Then what would be the point of having classes at all?

I don't mind my magDK doing less damage than my sorc, because they're more flexible and can off tank much better, they have chains and talons and a kick ass way of one shotting the trolls on vMA by halfway across the room.

Wardens are also flexible, and can do heals, damage and tanks, whereas sorcs are more or less a one trick pony.

The balance issues that I see is that in PvP certain skills are OP. The Warden has two of these.

If you can't do 25k with a Warden, just live with it or make a sorc.

Did you read the thread?

Currently, all magicka classes can parse in the range of 34-37k DPS, except warden which tops out at 28-29k DPS. DK and templar are both "support classes" (just like warden), but they can still output competitive DPS (they are 1-2k DPS behind sorc). It's okay to have a little variation, but not 20%.

This game was designed around the principle of every class being able to fill every role (it's their core design philosophy that's even stuck on the box for the game). DPS is the easiest role to keep that promise in since all the devs need to do is tweak numbers on abilities/passives. Making every class viable for tanking and healing is harder since that is ability-based and not so much tied to numbers.

Ihatenightblades · September 2017

tinythinker wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

It is?

No the person who said this most likely gets destroyed in pvp by ever class if he's struggling against wardens LOL

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

It is?

No the person who said this most likely gets destroyed in pvp by ever class if he's struggling against wardens LOL

In theory I can see why they might be strong in PvP, but they seem to be really unpopular on Cyrodiil leader boards (which would imply they aren't OP). I'm not sure if they fair better in BGs since BG leader boards don't show class.

pieratsos · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

It is?

No the person who said this most likely gets destroyed in pvp by ever class if he's struggling against wardens LOL

In theory I can see why they might be strong in PvP, but they seem to be really unpopular on Cyrodiil leader boards (which would imply they aren't OP). I'm not sure if they fair better in BGs since BG leader boards don't show class.

Thats because they've been in the game for only 3 months and they are locked behind a giant paywall. Did you actually expect to see the same numbers as the other 4 classes that are free and they are in the game for over 3 years?

And PVP leaderboards are not an indication of player skill or class effectiveness

Betsararie · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

It is?

No the person who said this most likely gets destroyed in pvp by ever class if he's struggling against wardens LOL

In theory I can see why they might be strong in PvP, but they seem to be really unpopular on Cyrodiil leader boards (which would imply they aren't OP). I'm not sure if they fair better in BGs since BG leader boards don't show class.

Thats because they've been in the game for only 3 months and they are locked behind a giant paywall. Did you actually expect to see the same numbers as the other 4 classes that are free and they are in the game for over 3 years?

And PVP leaderboards are not an indication of player skill or class effectiveness

This is all true

POps75p · September 2017

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone cried that Wardan would be a pay to win class so this is what you get.

I recall that myself, when they were taking away from the temp, and give things to the warden, I think is was all ESO *** to get people to buy the Update, thinking they would get a new powerful player type to play, it was prob one of they biggest BS hypes, wardens SUCK period......................................................................................., I was a fool to buy into it and bought the dlc, and now have a player type that I no longer have any use to play and it has no advantage in anything

and that's the truth, and don't try and buff, as will as be another round of ZOS BS, so just let it Rip.

FakeFox · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Just equal (in terms of DPS) to other "support classes" like templar and DK.

You realise stamina DK currently wipes the floor with everything else? Just saying. However, I think the idea of some classes pulling less DPS because they are focused on "support" is nonsense. I see no logical planing by ZOS in what turns out to be best what so ever.

pieratsos · September 2017

POps75p wrote: »

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone cried that Wardan would be a pay to win class so this is what you get.

I recall that myself, when they were taking away from the temp, and give things to the warden, I think is was all ESO *** to get people to buy the Update, thinking they would get a new powerful player type to play, it was prob one of they biggest BS hypes, wardens SUCK period......................................................................................., I was a fool to buy into it and bought the dlc, and now have a player type that I no longer have any use to play and it has no advantage in anything

and that's the truth, and don't try and buff, as will as be another round of ZOS BS, so just let it Rip.

They suck at one aspect of the game. Magicka PVE DPS. Thats the truth.
The class being dead isnt the truth. Its ur own biased personal opinion.

tinythinker · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

POps75p wrote: »

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone cried that Wardan would be a pay to win class so this is what you get.

I recall that myself, when they were taking away from the temp, and give things to the warden, I think is was all ESO *** to get people to buy the Update, thinking they would get a new powerful player type to play, it was prob one of they biggest BS hypes, wardens SUCK period......................................................................................., I was a fool to buy into it and bought the dlc, and now have a player type that I no longer have any use to play and it has no advantage in anything

and that's the truth, and don't try and buff, as will as be another round of ZOS BS, so just let it Rip.

They suck at one aspect of the game. Magicka PVE DPS. Thats the truth.
The class being dead isnt the truth. Its ur own biased personal opinion.

I've seen some cool Warden tanks and healers, which of course aren't the thread topic, but, to your point...

Flameheart · September 2017

I leveled a magicka Warden, played a few vet instances as DD, was completely underwhelmed by the dps output, got some more skillpoints to level out the onehand shield and heavy armor skill line and am playing the toon as tank now.

As a tank the class is pretty cool to play and very efficient (portal as surrogate for DK chains rocks for example, the whole group support rocks). Pretty sure it's the same for playing a healer. I heard the class sucks as magicka DD, maybe not as stamina DD. So just don't play it as magicka DD in PvE.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

Flameheart wrote: »

I heard the class sucks as magicka DD, maybe not as stamina DD. So just don't play it as magicka DD in PvE.

The point of this thread is to bring ZOS' attention to the issue, as they seem to be oblivious to it.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

POps75p wrote: »

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone cried that Wardan would be a pay to win class so this is what you get.

I recall that myself, when they were taking away from the temp, and give things to the warden, I think is was all ESO *** to get people to buy the Update, thinking they would get a new powerful player type to play, it was prob one of they biggest BS hypes, wardens SUCK period......................................................................................., I was a fool to buy into it and bought the dlc, and now have a player type that I no longer have any use to play and it has no advantage in anything

and that's the truth, and don't try and buff, as will as be another round of ZOS BS, so just let it Rip.

They suck at one aspect of the game. Magicka PVE DPS. Thats the truth.
The class being dead isnt the truth. Its ur own biased personal opinion.

They are good tanks and healers, but still not better than DK and templar (most teams still roll with 2x DK, 2x templar).

Jade1986 · September 2017

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

grannas211 · September 2017

I'm enjoying the burst (if it lands in) PVP on my mag warden. In PVE though, yeah I agree it's not a very good DD. I used it as a healer to get my undaunted maxed. While it's pretty good in that role, my Templar is definitely easier to heal on.

So basically I agree with everything except that it "sucks" in PVP.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Just equal (in terms of DPS) to other "support classes" like templar and DK.

You realise stamina DK currently wipes the floor with everything else? Just saying. However, I think the idea of some classes pulling less DPS because they are focused on "support" is nonsense. I see no logical planing by ZOS in what turns out to be best what so ever.

This topic is about magicka classes, not stamina. I'm aware that stamDK is the top DPS in the game right now.

I agree with you that there are no class-specific roles in this game. Every class should be able to fill every role. But there are a lot of people who argue that warden should suck at DPS because they are a "support class", which is obviously nonsense since both DK and templar are "support classes" (even better ones than warden), yet they have no problems dealing damage.

pieratsos · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

POps75p wrote: »

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone cried that Wardan would be a pay to win class so this is what you get.

I recall that myself, when they were taking away from the temp, and give things to the warden, I think is was all ESO *** to get people to buy the Update, thinking they would get a new powerful player type to play, it was prob one of they biggest BS hypes, wardens SUCK period......................................................................................., I was a fool to buy into it and bought the dlc, and now have a player type that I no longer have any use to play and it has no advantage in anything

and that's the truth, and don't try and buff, as will as be another round of ZOS BS, so just let it Rip.

They suck at one aspect of the game. Magicka PVE DPS. Thats the truth.
The class being dead isnt the truth. Its ur own biased personal opinion.

They are good tanks and healers, but still not better than DK and templar (most teams still roll with 2x DK, 2x templar).

Not sure what ur point is. I just said that the only thing they are not good at is magicka PVE DPS. They can do everything else fine. So no they are not dead. They just need buffs for magicka DPS without affecting their dmg in PVP cause its already too high.

Which class is the best at tanking/healing for min/max purposes in trials is kinda irrelevant as long as they are viable in those roles. They are the second best healers and tanks. If they were the best healers and tanks the P2W threads would pop up faster than you can lock them.

SanTii.92 · September 2017

Zos has yet to push a patch with significant class balance since pre morrowind, so I'm expecting Clockwork one to come with warden fixes. OR ELSE.

SodanTok · September 2017

laced wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

Bow/bow stam warden has the same DPS ceiling as magwarden, because they rely pretty much on same passives and skills. If you got some compliment for it, it is more because your dps was enough for that content or they were not expecting it to be that high from bow

It is still 20% worse than DW/bow stam warden. When talking numbers, you are looking at ~32-33k DPS on 3M dummy with bear and vma bow.

SanTii.92 · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Mag wardens currently have the highest *burst* damage in PvP due to so many of their skills lining up and hitting at the same time.

But while their burst is higher than a sorc's, their defense suffers. It's not bad, especially considering that heal ult, but it's not great either.

Increasing mag warden DPS for PvE would have to leave the beetles and the birds alone. They'd need a ground target dot or something that wouldn't be effective in PvP.

What we cannot do is give them an execute. They'd be 1second combo killing everyone in PvP that isn't holding down the block button.

Burst is useless in PvE, so I wouldn't expect them to buff that. Buff their DoTs and make bear a single-bar ability.

Finally MLG I could convince you!

SanTii.92 · September 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Wardens are borderline OP in PvP, that tree ultimate is just out of control. Completely out of control

As someone with extensive pvp play with magwardens i could agree with that statement, but mainly cause of a couple over the top mechanics, which most definetly should be addressed. Most importantly, yes you've guessed it.

Trees ulti. This is as you said completly out of control. Uptimes are insane, and provides far too much healing for its cost (as defensive ults generally tend to). Cost should be increased to 100-125, and Enchanted Forest just reworked. There is no need whatsoever for a low cost ult's morph to also contribute to higher uptimes, and even less so when both morphs serve for pretty much the same purpose. Enchanted forest should instead provide offensive buffs.
Secondly Shimmering Shield is just such a hard counter to range class it's actually pretty ridiculous. Not to mention the sustain and ult regen it provides on top of that. Hard counters are never healthy mechanics, and shimmering is one of the worse offenders. Honestly im not sure what i would do here but something should.

But this isn't really a pvp thread so I'll mention a couple things that I'd like to see to help wardens dps without affecting pvp much. First, as @MLGProPlayer mentioned, bear should definetly be allowed to single bar it. As it currently works, is not a bad ult by itself, provides some nice dps, and burst, but it simply can't compete agaisnt aoe cappabilites of the destro ult, which is where magicka dps generally shines, nor with the utility a second ult provides for pvp.

Single barred bear, move some of it's dps to the proc part, so you got to choose what you need: single target or aoe/utility. And split the hit in two do its not unmanagable for pvp. Also the respawn morph most of the times just doesnt work or you get stucked on the animation. Id like to see a stun here, but open for ideas.

Then artic wind and frozen device should be just be reworkd too for some other dps alternatives, specially device, the skill is just a fail mechanic.

Thogard wrote: »

Mag wardens currently have the highest *burst* damage in PvP due to so many of their skills lining up and hitting at the same time.

This is true, but comes at the expense of being the most telegraphed setup on the game, even more so than sorcs, and the complete lack of reliable hard ot soft Cc.

Jade1986 · September 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

mag warden could need a slight buff but im more concerned about stam warden in pve tbh

comparing it for example to a stam sorc - if you're going the dw-dot route it's not even a contest...stam sorc wins 10:0...but even if you go the burst route witha 2h - you'd think the stam warden would win out here...nope even here a stam sorc is better with a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger wrecking blow (why did they kill of the physical damage passive again?)...

So while i think mag warden might benefit from a slight damage buff the real issue imo is stam warden which needs desperatly a buff - giving it the physical damage passive back would be a start

Try a bow / bow stamden. The damage is ridiculously good. I got compliments from ( ones that werent nobs and didnt boot me ) from vet 660 players as a lvl 35 in dungeons. In pvp they are good too, really, REALLY intense and involves lots of finger action, but really good none the less. As for magden, I can see how their abilities could leave room to be desired. My Magden is a healer. I looked at the abilities and realized straight off magden dps would be problematic.

Bow/bow stam warden has the same DPS ceiling as magwarden, because they rely pretty much on same passives and skills. If you got some compliment for it, it is more because your dps was enough for that content or they were not expecting it to be that high from bow It is still 20% worse than DW/bow stam warden. When talking numbers, you are looking at ~32-33k DPS on 3M dummy with bear and vma bow.

Are you sure its the same? The snipe ability alone hits harder than any magicka warden ability. You weave Snipe, la, bird, la, poison injection and the damage is pretty good. and for pve add the hail of arrows. If it is a little weaker than the best cookie cutter build, i dont care, id rather have fun than be a sheep

Gan Xing · September 2017

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

Good thing then that PvP and PvE rely on different types of damage.

Warden has high burst damage, which is useless in PvE. So just buff their DoTs, which are useless in PvP.

Or just make cliff racer dodgeable (that's the only thing that makes them "OP" in PvP).

Are you still going on about this? Get a clue. Cliff Racer is dodgeable, from several different sources. But since dodge roll isan't one of them, everyone still cries about it.

this is true, I've seen my cliff racer miss to people going into stealth.

Killset · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Well seeing how absolutely and insanely OP in pvp, mag wardens are, I cant imagine what it would be if they got DPS increase ...

It is?

No the person who said this most likely gets destroyed in pvp by ever class if he's struggling against wardens LOL

In theory I can see why they might be strong in PvP, but they seem to be really unpopular on Cyrodiil leader boards (which would imply they aren't OP). I'm not sure if they fair better in BGs since BG leader boards don't show class.

Dude, why are you so caught up on PvP leader boards? They have absolutely nothing to do with the strength of a class. Some of the worst players I have seen regularly score top ten in cyrodiil and BG leaderboards. It is simply indicative of how much they play and not the strength of their class. Just stop. Mag Warden is one of the most stupidly overpowered things to be released in this game in a while (from a PvP perspective).