PVE is too Easy

Axoinus · August 2017

Difficulty sliders for Delves!!!!

Sheva I 7 I · August 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

After 3+ years of playing ESO I find myself slowly losing interest in the game. I found myself after 2 years beginning to take short breaks and then return temporarily refrshed only to fall back into the slump again. At almost 20 years of playing MMOs I thought maybe I was facing MMO burnout. I read a lot on the forums at MMORPG.com and a lot of the old MMO gamers seem to go through it along with the feeling the MMOs nowadays just aren't cutting it. Truth is, ESO has some very good qualities, from the amount of area to explore, the soundtrack, RVR style PVP, etc. Of course it also has it's negative issues as well, at least for me, but none that I can't adapt and still enjoy playing. So I kept asking myself, why am I feeling this way. I'm an MMO player for all of these years, hell it's what I do. My conclusion to what's causing this feeling is the simplicity of the PVE in this game. Overland mobs are really a joke. There is no fear of death. This includes delves.I know this topic has come up in the past as I'm a professional lurker of these forums since day 1 but damn something needs to be done. I thought maybe it was CP putting it over the tip but if you create a new character and don't allocate CP it's still faceroll easy. I know some of the vet dungeons are tough (thank god) but I can only run those so long until I'm blue in the face and swearing because that last piece I need hasn't dropped..We spend a lot of time in Overland and delve pve, I just wish there was some challenge, some fear, a feeling I can easily get over my head just farming mats in the wrong areas. Add some random champion mobs, increase the health of the ones we have, make them hit harder, anything at this point. Give me a reason to drag a friend around fighting mobs. Sorry I just had to rant. I'm getting tired of this easy mode a lot of these games are pushing nowadays and even though I'm a vet MMO gamer, I'm not the best player there is, not by a long shot, and I'm crying for some difficulty. Anyone else?

Well then where is your "the Dynamo" title? If its so easy you should have it.

Megabear · August 2017

ESO's PvE content is by far the easiest I've experienced, which I actually enjoy. No stress at all. I don't want to bang my head against the same raid boss for days on end. Vet trial in ESO? It's easier than trash mobs in some MMO's I've played lol.

Apherius · August 2017

It's why i created a post call " Third difficulty ? " just for more challenge , just for have fun without increase artificialy the difficulty ... but no way to avoid these " Just remove your cp's , just play naked " comment ... I would like to do this but when you die while playing without cps / gear you are just like " Hum ... if I die it's just because i don't have cps or gear " and it's not interessting at all ... I don't want more reward , I just want the game to give me some challenge ... not to create my own challenge.
But As i can see ... 40% don't want everyone to have fun , i still don't understand this.

Ardaghion · August 2017

I'm glad the average overland content isn't any harder. Sure the usual mobs are pretty easy now that I'm at level 50 and getting close to CP60. On the other hand my wife and I decided to give the world boss Clannfear in Auridon a try when we were around level 30. We got crushed in about 15 seconds. It was fun (or funny) but we immediately realized we weren't ready for WBs.

I like the idea that the tougher content is a bit isolated, I'd hate to randomly run into Snapjaw when I'm out trying to gather crafting materials. On the other hand I like it when some enemies just transport near your location and you can decide if you want to engage them or not. Although you may not have a choice. That happened in one location where I was getting a skyshard that was surrounded by lava. I got attacked by a lot of enemies spawning in as well as some bugs (shalks I think) and didn't have much time to react or room to move. I came close to dying but I beat them and it was quite exhilarating.

The idea of some randomness in the spawn locations in the delves or dungeons is a good idea, almost too easy to look at the map and see where they spawn. Although there have been a few times when I haven't payed attention and the boss was already killed and I didn't know I was standing near the spawn point!

Drpsychoball · August 2017

TBH the game is so much easier than it used to be

Malmai · August 2017

Too much time in life and this is result...

seedubsrun · August 2017

Apherius wrote: »

It's why i created a post call " Third difficulty ? " just for more challenge , just for have fun without increase artificialy the difficulty ... but no way to avoid these " Just remove your cp's , just play naked " comment ... I would like to do this but when you die while playing without cps / gear you are just like " Hum ... if I die it's just because i don't have cps or gear " and it's not interessting at all ... I don't want more reward , I just want the game to give me some challenge ... not to create my own challenge.
But As i can see ... 40% don't want everyone to have fun , i still don't understand this.

I can't even participate in these kinds of threads anymore because of just what you say (He says while participating in this thread) Asking it to be harder pisses people off, compromising pisses people off, suggesting it's dumb gimping yourself to create some faux harder difficulty pisses people off, suggesting Zos implements ways to make new players better so the game can be harder without screwing anyone pisses people off. Why it's too much to ask that people who pay for a game get to enjoy all of it is beyond me. Some people don't like their game to be too easy. Some people want to use their current build while questing and get a challenge. Some people want both of those things in a totally compromising manner that should be a no brainer to others but for some mystifying reason isn't.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2017

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

B: Most of the people dont like what you like. Most people have limited free time and would rather not have to research a dungeon just to do it. This is a MMO we all have to share. Sorry, but you dont come before everyone else.

What you should likely do: Advocate reform of the system itself. Until tanking is actually usefull, fun to play, and in a good spot, and DPS does not require external research, you will -never- have the balls hard options you so crave because the game simply wont be able to support it. When half the battle is finding a build that -functions- and the biggest barrier to entry for trials is 'are you willing to use what the raid leader says because this is what works and nothing else', difficulty is the least of your problems.

And if you want that system reform? The dev team needs to change.

Alternatively: Advocate for a third difficulty tier to be implimented so you -can- have what you want without screwing everyone else in the process. This is to be considered a temp solution. Because otherwise your just going to be puting a bandaid on a gaping wound. The problem is bigger than this

And if none of those options appeal to you, you will never be satisfied, and you should probably try to find another MMO.

Zardayne · August 2017

Sheva I 7 I wrote: »

Zardayne wrote: »

After 3+ years of playing ESO I find myself slowly losing interest in the game. I found myself after 2 years beginning to take short breaks and then return temporarily refrshed only to fall back into the slump again. At almost 20 years of playing MMOs I thought maybe I was facing MMO burnout. I read a lot on the forums at MMORPG.com and a lot of the old MMO gamers seem to go through it along with the feeling the MMOs nowadays just aren't cutting it. Truth is, ESO has some very good qualities, from the amount of area to explore, the soundtrack, RVR style PVP, etc. Of course it also has it's negative issues as well, at least for me, but none that I can't adapt and still enjoy playing. So I kept asking myself, why am I feeling this way. I'm an MMO player for all of these years, hell it's what I do. My conclusion to what's causing this feeling is the simplicity of the PVE in this game. Overland mobs are really a joke. There is no fear of death. This includes delves.I know this topic has come up in the past as I'm a professional lurker of these forums since day 1 but damn something needs to be done. I thought maybe it was CP putting it over the tip but if you create a new character and don't allocate CP it's still faceroll easy. I know some of the vet dungeons are tough (thank god) but I can only run those so long until I'm blue in the face and swearing because that last piece I need hasn't dropped..We spend a lot of time in Overland and delve pve, I just wish there was some challenge, some fear, a feeling I can easily get over my head just farming mats in the wrong areas. Add some random champion mobs, increase the health of the ones we have, make them hit harder, anything at this point. Give me a reason to drag a friend around fighting mobs. Sorry I just had to rant. I'm getting tired of this easy mode a lot of these games are pushing nowadays and even though I'm a vet MMO gamer, I'm not the best player there is, not by a long shot, and I'm crying for some difficulty. Anyone else?

Well then where is your "the Dynamo" title? If its so easy you should have it.

Why even post that? You'll get your next star soon enough. I don't need a Dynamo title..as you see I even claimed I'm not a great player, just a veteran MMO player that misses a challenge in a large portion of the game. Sorry you took it as I'm an elitist or something.

Here's what I said:
even though I'm a vet MMO gamer, I'm not the best player there is, not by a long shot

seedubsrun · August 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

B: Most of the people dont like what you like. Most people have limited free time and would rather not have to research a dungeon just to do it. This is a MMO we all have to share. Sorry, but you dont come before everyone else.

What you should likely do: Advocate reform of the system itself. Until tanking is actually usefull, fun to play, and in a good spot, and DPS does not require external research, you will -never- have the balls hard options you so crave because the game simply wont be able to support it.

And if you want that system reform? The dev team needs to change.

OP isn't talking about dungeons. They're talking about regular ole questing content and overland game play. They aren't suggesting it all just gets harder damn everyone else. They suggested a toggle with the OPTION to be more difficult so PvE questing (which is what most of the game is) isn't so easy that completing it feels like a chore. Some people like it easy-awesome don't adjust the difficulty. Some would like it harder- awesome toggle the harder difficulty. That's all the OP's point is.

Also, to say that questing is just for beginner's is silly to say (I know you didn't say that doctordarkspawn, others did). That essentially means that when Morrowind came out all of it except for the new trial was for new players? Either that can't possibly be Zos's intention or they're completely inept cash grabbers that we mindlessly feed money to for basically no reason

Doctordarkspawn · August 2017

seedubsrun wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

B: Most of the people dont like what you like. Most people have limited free time and would rather not have to research a dungeon just to do it. This is a MMO we all have to share. Sorry, but you dont come before everyone else.

What you should likely do: Advocate reform of the system itself. Until tanking is actually usefull, fun to play, and in a good spot, and DPS does not require external research, you will -never- have the balls hard options you so crave because the game simply wont be able to support it.

And if you want that system reform? The dev team needs to change.

OP isn't talking about dungeons. They're talking about regular ole questing content and overland game play. They aren't suggesting it all just gets harder damn everyone else. They suggested a toggle with the OPTION to be more difficult so PvE questing (which is what most of the game is) isn't so easy that completing it feels like a chore. Some people like it easy-awesome don't adjust the difficulty. Some would like it harder- awesome toggle the harder difficulty. That's all the OP's point is.

My answer does not change.

The reason the overland is as easy as it is compared to any other MMO is because it has to be, because the tools the player is given are crappy and near-broken. Fix the system and the difficulty and satisfaction will follow.

Like I said. When an effective leveling build, a dungeon build, requires external research, difficulty is the least of your problems. The system just does not work.

buttaface · August 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

After 3+ years of playing ESO...My conclusion to what's causing this feeling is the simplicity of the PVE in this game.

This isn't tennis or speaking a foreign language, it's a video game. Perhaps do what others do when they have played a video game enough...

...and go play a different, new game.

Or you could complain about how easy something you've done for three years is that essentially boils down to 1/10 the keystrokes you would use word processing.

Or even better, PUG veteran dungeons, use white gear, turn off your CP.

This isn't a "world" that you "live in," it's a video game.

Zardayne · August 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Zardayne wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Zardayne This is not meant personally, but overland isn't meant to be super challenging. It's meant for new players, not three year veterans like us. For us, there are vet trials, vet dlc dungeons, and of course maelstrom.

BUT

If you want to have fun and really have a good challenge in overworld, make a new character with no outside help. That means no CP, no set gear, and if you've got the fire in you, all white gear with no traits you make at a random crafting station.

While your run of the mill mob probably won't be too bad, when you get to bosses (doubly so with world bosses) like this, you're going to have to fight for your life.

I don't know why overland shouldn't be meant to be challenging. Not all of it of course. They need to inject some danger though throughout zones and delves. Perhaps some wandering champion mobs with it's defenders. You see that quite abit in Guild Wars 2. Maybe spawned groups of npc with some elites thrown in to invade random towns and villages in a zone such as Rift has. A huge zone boss that spawns randomly once a day or week to keep you on your feet that takes 5+ players to bring down (such as a giant I encountered in GW2 once that took a lot of us to drop with multiple deaths).

In delves right now you can look on the map and know exactly where the boss is. Stengthen them and have that dude walk the halls (like they do the bad boy elites in the Imperial city) randomly on occassion. Nothing increases the danger and fear more than making a pull of mobs and then here comes the champ around the corner. That gets people backpeddling. Add traps to the delves that can actually kill you..slow the game down a tad and make a player think. I mean hell you die and you instantly spawn back up. Pride might be bruised a bit but after a few of those it'll toughen a player up. Other than that death's painless in the game. This isn't Asheron's Call where you when you died in the Lugian Citadel at 2 am in the morning and you lost you breastplate and best axe, you had to wade back in there just to get your gear back. I miss those days..the days of high adventure.

If we only had PVP servers like the old days..then you add some danger and excitement to PVE without even touching the mobs. Like i said I've got to the point I try to level PVEing in Cyrodiil.

These are all ideas that would make Overland and delve PVE fun and somewhat challenging. Trials and such shouldn't be the only challenges in the game.

Overland content is not meant for end game players. It is meant for casuals and new players to experience a story. And as I said, you have the capacity to make it night and day just by dropping sets and traits and CP.

Think of it this way; if we made overland very, very difficult scaled to a cp660+ with bis gear and 3 years of working knowledge, how would any new players enter the game? It would stagnate, more than likely. You need the little roller coasters and the big scary one, both.

Wandering champions the strength of world bosses: heck yes!

Wandering delve bosses: might make it harder to track them all, but still heck yes!

Gear drop on death: Sorry, not my cup of tea. I would cancel my sub and stop playing.

Open world PvP: Sorry, not my cup of tea. I would cancel my sub and stop playing.

The two latter points however, I'd be fine with if they were a server option and not a mandatory game wide thing. Ie, if zos made an NA and EU "legendary" server for all platforms, giving people a fresh start and making you KOS in enemy alliances. I just don't see a lot of developing time going into that, cool though it may be.

Yea the gear drop on death was harsh and I'm glad that's no longer being used in most MMOs. I remember in the instance I mentioned in Asheron's call, it was a work night and by the time I got all the way into the citadel to get my gear before my corpse was released to just anyone, it was after 3 in the morning. The next day at work was a pain lol. I don't miss that really but it was challenging haha.

As far as open world pvp I always felt it had it pros and cons and I definitely wouldn't want it forced on anyone. Sure it was intense and exciting but there were those days when someone, normally ganker rogue types, that would kill and then camp your area to kill you again. Yea those days sucked. It was great though when others that had the same thing happen rallied together and ran them out of the area.

Zardayne · August 2017

Bombashaman wrote: »

For OP there should be a difficulty toggle. Ramp it up and keep on going. There is no reason to make anyone elses game harder.

You know like you mention here and I believe someone else did as well, perhaps adding a difficulty slider to delves would help.

seedubsrun · August 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

B: Most of the people dont like what you like. Most people have limited free time and would rather not have to research a dungeon just to do it. This is a MMO we all have to share. Sorry, but you dont come before everyone else.

What you should likely do: Advocate reform of the system itself. Until tanking is actually usefull, fun to play, and in a good spot, and DPS does not require external research, you will -never- have the balls hard options you so crave because the game simply wont be able to support it.

And if you want that system reform? The dev team needs to change.

OP isn't talking about dungeons. They're talking about regular ole questing content and overland game play. They aren't suggesting it all just gets harder damn everyone else. They suggested a toggle with the OPTION to be more difficult so PvE questing (which is what most of the game is) isn't so easy that completing it feels like a chore. Some people like it easy-awesome don't adjust the difficulty. Some would like it harder- awesome toggle the harder difficulty. That's all the OP's point is.

My answer does not change.

The reason the overland is as easy as it is compared to any other MMO is because it has to be, because the tools the player is given are crappy and near-broken. Fix the system and the difficulty and satisfaction will follow.

Like I said. When an effective leveling build, a dungeon build, requires external research, difficulty is the least of your problems. The system just does not work.

Yes, this I agree with. I've mentioned before that they don't give new players the tools needed to be successful in this game and compensate by just making the game easy. That system is terrible and absolutely needs to be looked into. It may not be a huge problem now but what about a year or two from now when there's even more players at max CP finding the game too easy or twice as many end game players that never really learned how to play? It's built to eventually fail.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

We need more zones like Craglorn. A mix of faceroll easy content and slightly challenging content. Main quest should be faceroll easy, but it would be nice to have some challenging group delves and group instances (like Skyreach, Shada's Tear, etc.). These are very easy when done in groups, so the casual players will still have a chance to complete them, while the players looking for a bit of a challenge can solo them.

Ardaghion · August 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

Bombashaman wrote: »

For OP there should be a difficulty toggle. Ramp it up and keep on going. There is no reason to make anyone elses game harder.

You know like you mention here and I believe someone else did as well, perhaps adding a difficulty slider to delves would help.

The difficulty slider on delves would require making them instanced. I guess you could make normal difficulty delves shared but as soon as you choose higher difficulty it becomes a separate instance for you are your group.

Zardayne · August 2017

seedubsrun wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

B: Most of the people dont like what you like. Most people have limited free time and would rather not have to research a dungeon just to do it. This is a MMO we all have to share. Sorry, but you dont come before everyone else.

What you should likely do: Advocate reform of the system itself. Until tanking is actually usefull, fun to play, and in a good spot, and DPS does not require external research, you will -never- have the balls hard options you so crave because the game simply wont be able to support it.

And if you want that system reform? The dev team needs to change.

OP isn't talking about dungeons. They're talking about regular ole questing content and overland game play. They aren't suggesting it all just gets harder damn everyone else. They suggested a toggle with the OPTION to be more difficult so PvE questing (which is what most of the game is) isn't so easy that completing it feels like a chore. Some people like it easy-awesome don't adjust the difficulty. Some would like it harder- awesome toggle the harder difficulty. That's all the OP's point is.

Also, to say that questing is just for beginner's is silly to say (I know you didn't say that doctordarkspawn, others did). That essentially means that when Morrowind came out all of it except for the new trial was for new players? Either that can't possibly be Zos's intention or they're completely inept cash grabbers that we mindlessly feed money to for basically no reason

I feel overland questing shouldn't just be "for beginners". Just like dungeons have normal and vet modes. There's a huge world to explore and have fun in and I love going back through those areas and farming and helping folks with the increased difficulty world bosses.The same ones we all were facerolling solo just a while back. A new player shouldn't have to suffer because a veteran player wants a challenge and a Vet shouldn't have to be bored to tears and be forced to quit due to the game being too easy. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. To me the answer shouldn't be "your in end game now so your only hard pve you get is Trials, maelstrom, and some of the new vet dungeons." Everytime a new expansion drops I shouldn't have to make a new nord character, run naked or in dropped gear, drink magica regen drinks on my stamplar, and tie my mouse hand behind my back to enjoy a challenge.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Overland content is not meant for end game players. It is meant for casuals and new players to experience a story. And as I said, you have the capacity to make it night and day just by dropping sets and traits and CP.

The problem is that overland content is 90% of this game.

Just look at Morrowind. 30 hours of the easiest quest content imaginable. What do endgame players get? A single raid...

nbksaske · August 2017

Ive played since launch on ps4, over cp cap, done all pve content apart from vmol and vhof, moved over to xbox to start again with friends... And i can tell you, its not easy, world bosses can 1 shot you, doing dungeons you have to watch what your doing more so, there are real challenges until your past 350cp id say,

If you have got all achievements and... Done it all, go do everything you can in pvp, or go play another game, to say this games pve is easy.... Bit cheap and unfair saying so wearing your bis setup and max cp.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

nbksaske wrote: »

Ive played since launch on ps4, over cp cap, done all pve content apart from vmol and vhof, moved over to xbox to start again with friends... And i can tell you, its not easy, world bosses can 1 shot you, doing dungeons you have to watch what your doing more so, there are real challenges until your past 350cp id say,

If you have got all achievements and... Done it all, go do everything you can in pvp, or go play another game, to say this games pve is easy.... Bit cheap and unfair saying so wearing your bis setup and max cp.

Power creep is a problem.

The game shouldn't become faceroll easy just because you've reached max level and are wearing the best gear. You're punishing your veteran players. MMOs are supposed to be long lasting with new content being added for new and veteran players alike. ZOS releases new content almost exclusively aimed at new players.

maboleth · August 2017

Jhalin wrote: »

Overland is way too easy I agree. It was better before the One Tamriel update, then it had the standard difficulty climb of a typical MMO. Pushing ahead to higher level zones let you flex your muscles but it was still fun.

It was a mistake to get rid of that system, the "port anywhere" is fine but level scaling should have stayed. Craglorn is the only semi-difficult overland PvE content we have now, and that's only if you solo everything.

I do recommend getting into a trials guild, if for no other reason than to experience something new.

Totally wrong. The enemies scale at your level now and for everyone. It's just that if you have mastered the combat, it will still feel somewhat easy. Before you had the entire zones and quests totally useless if you have, for example, overleveled the content by playing cyrodiil. You were fighting level 5 or 15 enemies like a veteran. It drove me mad, as I'm a quester, as well as pvper. One Tamriel is one of the best updates this game had. It finally feels like a true ES game.

But I agree with a suggestion for a random enemy that would have tougher hits, hp and be more challenging.

tplink3r1 · August 2017

PVE was fun when the game released, but it was nerfed so 10 years old kids can play it too.

It's not because you have learned the mechanics and not about power creep, THE GAME WAS NERFED.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

nbksaske wrote: »

Ive played since launch on ps4, over cp cap, done all pve content apart from vmol and vhof, moved over to xbox to start again with friends... And i can tell you, its not easy, world bosses can 1 shot you, doing dungeons you have to watch what your doing more so, there are real challenges until your past 350cp id say,

If you have got all achievements and... Done it all, go do everything you can in pvp, or go play another game, to say this games pve is easy.... Bit cheap and unfair saying so wearing your bis setup and max cp.

Power creep is a problem.

The game shouldn't become faceroll easy just because you've reached max level and are wearing the best gear. You're punishing your veteran players.

It never -became- faceroll easy for that reason.

It became faceroll easy because the hastily converted skill and class system balance couldn't handle properly constructed PVE. So they had to scale it down.

zyk · August 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

It's actually the opposite. ESO had challenging content at launch. When released, Crag delves were probably more challenging then than vet dungeons are today.

But ESO launched too soon with too much unfinished and the core and hardcore MMO audience mostly left before 1.5.

It did better with single player TES fans, but they found the vet difficulty to be overwhelming, so the difficulty was reduced. Over the past year, ZOS has been open about its desire to lower the ceiling and raise the floor the make all content more accessible.

IMO, ESO was far better at being a challenging game than it is at being an easy game.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2017

zyk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

It's actually the opposite. ESO had challenging content at launch. When released, Crag delves were probably more challenging then than vet dungeons are today.

But ESO launched too soon with too much unfinished and the core and hardcore MMO audience mostly left before 1.5.

It did better with single player TES fans, but they found the vet difficulty to be overwhelming, so the difficulty was reduced. Over the past year, ZOS has been open about its desire to lower the ceiling and raise the floor the make all content more accessible.

IMO, ESO was far better at being a challenging game than it is at being an easy game.

This is true. The game was balls hard at launch.

And yet it was all training for the PVP mode. Pledges didn't exist, the groupfinder tool didn't exist, the game was basicly just training through the vet content and the dungeons to make the players adept at fighting as a group, until they got to vet rank 12, at which point the PVP mode was all there was.

Unfinished? It wasn't there. It was never the focus, and the PVE content was just there as a story/training session.

Everything else, however, is accurate. It did better with single player TES fans who found the difficulty a load of crap (I was one of them, I should know) and just left. Then, around the time the dev team changed they realized they couldn't survive without a PVE audience so they hit the overland difficulty in the nuts, created the pledge system, and kept things mild. But in doing so, they butchered the skill system and balance itself, and made it -all- they could do.

As for Crag...Crag sucks. Nobody wants to quest with a group. It's why it was basicly adapted to solo-ability.

TLDR: It may have been better as a hard game to you, but the sad fact is it wasn't profitable. Not on an MMO scale. Wizardry online kinda proved that. The game tried to reach for the wrong audience. In more ways then one. And it's still punishing itself for it.

seedubsrun · August 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

It's actually the opposite. ESO had challenging content at launch. When released, Crag delves were probably more challenging then than vet dungeons are today.

But ESO launched too soon with too much unfinished and the core and hardcore MMO audience mostly left before 1.5.

It did better with single player TES fans, but they found the vet difficulty to be overwhelming, so the difficulty was reduced. Over the past year, ZOS has been open about its desire to lower the ceiling and raise the floor the make all content more accessible.

IMO, ESO was far better at being a challenging game than it is at being an easy game.

This is true. The game was balls hard at launch.

And yet it was all training for the PVP mode. Pledges didn't exist, the groupfinder tool didn't exist, the game was basicly just training through the vet content and the dungeons to make the players adept at fighting as a group, until they got to vet rank 12, at which point the PVP mode was all there was.

Unfinished? It wasn't there. It was never the focus, and the PVE content was just there as a story/training session.

Everything else, however, is accurate. It did better with single player TES fans who found the difficulty a load of crap (I was one of them, I should know) and just left. Then, around the time the dev team changed they realized they couldn't survive without a PVE audience so they hit the overland difficulty in the nuts, created the pledge system, and kept things mild. But in doing so, they butchered the skill system and balance itself, and made it -all- they could do.

As for Crag...Crag sucks. Nobody wants to quest with a group. It's why it was basicly adapted to solo-ability.

TLDR: It may have been better as a hard game to you, but the sad fact is it wasn't profitable. Not on an MMO scale. Wizardry online kinda proved that. The game tried to reach for the wrong audience. In more ways then one. And it's still punishing itself for it.

It really feels like the whole concept of the game was never thought out properly. Like they add things in here and there cause they realize they forgot it or thought something wouldn't be important only to later find it was. They've gotten much better at figuring out what people want but they still focus on new players and selling things too much imo. Obviously keeping new players coming and getting enough money stream going to keep the game alive are extremely important but without taking care of veteran players to maintain a longevity with a strong base, all they'll have is a revolving door of people coming and eventually leaving.

Maybe the way things were for PvE difficulty early on make them scared to up things now but it really seems like now is the time to start thinking about offering more to end game players. If all upcoming "Chapters" are going to be like Morrowind, it'll be hard to ask vet players and especially vet ESO+ members to shell out cash for a whole expansion where only 5% is actually a challenge.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2017

seedubsrun wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

It's actually the opposite. ESO had challenging content at launch. When released, Crag delves were probably more challenging then than vet dungeons are today.

But ESO launched too soon with too much unfinished and the core and hardcore MMO audience mostly left before 1.5.

It did better with single player TES fans, but they found the vet difficulty to be overwhelming, so the difficulty was reduced. Over the past year, ZOS has been open about its desire to lower the ceiling and raise the floor the make all content more accessible.

IMO, ESO was far better at being a challenging game than it is at being an easy game.

This is true. The game was balls hard at launch.

And yet it was all training for the PVP mode. Pledges didn't exist, the groupfinder tool didn't exist, the game was basicly just training through the vet content and the dungeons to make the players adept at fighting as a group, until they got to vet rank 12, at which point the PVP mode was all there was.

Unfinished? It wasn't there. It was never the focus, and the PVE content was just there as a story/training session.

Everything else, however, is accurate. It did better with single player TES fans who found the difficulty a load of crap (I was one of them, I should know) and just left. Then, around the time the dev team changed they realized they couldn't survive without a PVE audience so they hit the overland difficulty in the nuts, created the pledge system, and kept things mild. But in doing so, they butchered the skill system and balance itself, and made it -all- they could do.

As for Crag...Crag sucks. Nobody wants to quest with a group. It's why it was basicly adapted to solo-ability.

TLDR: It may have been better as a hard game to you, but the sad fact is it wasn't profitable. Not on an MMO scale. Wizardry online kinda proved that. The game tried to reach for the wrong audience. In more ways then one. And it's still punishing itself for it.

It really feels like the whole concept of the game was never thought out properly. Like they add things in here and there cause they realize they forgot it or thought something wouldn't be important only to later find it was. They've gotten much better at figuring out what people want but they still focus on new players and selling things too much imo. Obviously keeping new players coming and getting enough money stream going to keep the game alive are extremely important but without taking care of veteran players to maintain a longevity with a strong base, all they'll have is a revolving door of people coming and eventually leaving.

Maybe the way things were for PvE difficulty early on make them scared to up things now but it really seems like now is the time to start thinking about offering more to end game players. If all upcoming "Chapters" are going to be like Morrowind, it'll be hard to ask vet players and especially vet ESO+ members to shell out cash for a whole expansion where only 5% is actually a challenge.

Funny about 'forgetting', they tend to remove cornerstones of the original system first, not figure out how important they were, then try to put out fires with the nerf hammer.

Classic example: Softcaps. DPS was much better to achieve when the goal was to spread your stats out. Then they removed it, found out players, big shock, got WAY too powerfull via stat stacking, and had to redo how stacking worked.

Then, seeing that they were now underpowered, made -all- the sets encourage stat-stacking. You see the problem with this line of reactionary thought? The new team has never thought ahed.

seedubsrun · August 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail:

The reason the game isn't that hard is A: Because the system simply isn't built for it. It was originally designed to be a PVP system and it was hastily converted to a duel system when they figured out the game simply couldn't survive without the hardcore PVE audience.

It's actually the opposite. ESO had challenging content at launch. When released, Crag delves were probably more challenging then than vet dungeons are today.

But ESO launched too soon with too much unfinished and the core and hardcore MMO audience mostly left before 1.5.

It did better with single player TES fans, but they found the vet difficulty to be overwhelming, so the difficulty was reduced. Over the past year, ZOS has been open about its desire to lower the ceiling and raise the floor the make all content more accessible.

IMO, ESO was far better at being a challenging game than it is at being an easy game.

This is true. The game was balls hard at launch.

And yet it was all training for the PVP mode. Pledges didn't exist, the groupfinder tool didn't exist, the game was basicly just training through the vet content and the dungeons to make the players adept at fighting as a group, until they got to vet rank 12, at which point the PVP mode was all there was.

Unfinished? It wasn't there. It was never the focus, and the PVE content was just there as a story/training session.

Everything else, however, is accurate. It did better with single player TES fans who found the difficulty a load of crap (I was one of them, I should know) and just left. Then, around the time the dev team changed they realized they couldn't survive without a PVE audience so they hit the overland difficulty in the nuts, created the pledge system, and kept things mild. But in doing so, they butchered the skill system and balance itself, and made it -all- they could do.

As for Crag...Crag sucks. Nobody wants to quest with a group. It's why it was basicly adapted to solo-ability.

TLDR: It may have been better as a hard game to you, but the sad fact is it wasn't profitable. Not on an MMO scale. Wizardry online kinda proved that. The game tried to reach for the wrong audience. In more ways then one. And it's still punishing itself for it.

It really feels like the whole concept of the game was never thought out properly. Like they add things in here and there cause they realize they forgot it or thought something wouldn't be important only to later find it was. They've gotten much better at figuring out what people want but they still focus on new players and selling things too much imo. Obviously keeping new players coming and getting enough money stream going to keep the game alive are extremely important but without taking care of veteran players to maintain a longevity with a strong base, all they'll have is a revolving door of people coming and eventually leaving.

Maybe the way things were for PvE difficulty early on make them scared to up things now but it really seems like now is the time to start thinking about offering more to end game players. If all upcoming "Chapters" are going to be like Morrowind, it'll be hard to ask vet players and especially vet ESO+ members to shell out cash for a whole expansion where only 5% is actually a challenge.

Funny about 'forgetting', they tend to remove cornerstones of the original system first, not figure out how important they were, then try to put out fires with the nerf hammer.

Classic example: Softcaps. DPS was much better to achieve when the goal was to spread your stats out. Then they removed it, found out players, big shock, got WAY too powerfull via stat stacking, and had to redo how stacking worked.

Then, seeing that they were now underpowered, made -all- the sets encourage stat-stacking. You see the problem with this line of reactionary thought? The new team has never thought ahed.

Lol, oh man you're so right. The stat stacking system essentially killed hybrid builds too and is one of the reason most of the gear in this game is useless. Wish someone smart and knowledgeable would post a thread mapping a timeline of all of Zos's terrible ideas in chronological order