Is there a Warden meta?

Docmandu · August 2017

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Warden is the only class that can have a permanent 20% dodge bonus.

or.. warden is the only class that can have Minor Evasion permanently up, which is a whooping 5% extra dodge.

Both statements are identical.. one of them would sell more papers though

Neoicelord · August 2017

As a PS4 player, i do not have to worry about my crap warden dps because there is no dps meter

Enslaved · August 2017

What is good for stamina PvP

Pick tanky stamina race

Orsimer
Imperial
Nord

Play with 2h and 1h&s
Make your CP about 60% tanky and 40% dd
Use at least 2 proc sets and one tanky one.

You will be able to survive ton of damage and *** people off with procs, undogeable cliff racer, trees that heal you and bugs that hit like a truck.

Is it best stamina PvP option? I don't care, it is fun as hell.

Peekachu99 · August 2017

Docmandu wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Warden is the only class that can have a permanent 20% dodge bonus.

or.. warden is the only class that can have Minor Evasion permanently up, which is a whooping 5% extra dodge.

Both statements are identical.. one of them would sell more papers though

Yes, and when combined with shuffle that gives you a 1/5 dodge chance instead of around 1/6. That's not insignificant, especially in PVP where a billion things are wailing on you. AND you still have the 30% mobility bonus.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno Is there any way to make people in your ignore list unable to tag you? It's already annoying that I can see the name of people in my Ignore List when they post stuffs, now they even can tag me and it appears on my Notifications.

Artis , Patrick, please put your ego down for a moment and please hear me out this time. I will try to settle this once and for all. Your definition of "effective" (the one with the best result is effective and the one with the second best effective is not) is different from the one made by Oxford.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/effective

effective
ADJECTIVE

Successful in producing a desired or intended result.
‘effective solutions to environmental problems’

The job of a DD is to pull the highest DPS number possible to complete the content. A DD kills things with 10 DPS is not being "effective", as in, he is not producing a desired or intended result. Let's say for example, if all classes can pull roughly 36k DPS, but Warden can only pull 30k DPS with the current toolkit, Wardens don't have the toolkit needed to be effective in DPSing compared to other classes, because the result Warden produces is clearly not desirable.
But, if Sorcs can pull 38k and DKs pull 37k, while DKs aren't producing the best result, they are producing a desired result, hence they are effective at what they are doing.

Now we take a look at healers. All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.

OK, tanks are next.
- Nightblade is at the current states are at best situational and at worst ineffective tank class. The job of a tank is to hold aggro, CC mobs, apply debuff, blow Warhorn and stay alive. Nightblade tanks have troubles staying alive in vet trials and their crowd control's capability is questionable. Although they are not useless because Sap tanking does work well in 4-man content, overall they just fall short.
- Sorc tanks, on the other hand, are extremely underrated (I am quoting Gilliam The Rouge here). They have all the tools needed to tank well, they have good sustain, good CC, cheap ults, I don't know why people don't utilize them more especially when top tier theorycrafters like Gilliam do see their potential. In PvP, Encase + Negate Sorc tanks are very scary and in a well coordinated group, they have potential to shine.
- Templar is in a pretty funny situation. They shine in 4-man content like Nightblade, with a Templar tank, people can run 3 DDs and don't need a healer. In PvP, they are the best tanks imo, outperform DKs by far. Templar tank/healbot is the most annoying thing and it's a nightmare to any 1vXer because not only you can't kill them, you can't kill their friends either because they just cast one BoL and their friends go back to full health. But, in vet trials, they are so bad because of their CC's capability is non-existent since the removal of stun from spear shard, and their stamina management is straight-up bad.
- We don't need to talk about DK and Warden tanks because we all know that they are good.

So what's not a DPS class?

A class is not a DPS class if the class doesn't have access to any damage dealing abilities.
A class is not a tank class if the class is not built with tanking abilities.
A class is not a healer class if the class is not built with healing abilities.

So, there's no such thing as a DPS/Healer/Tank class, because they are all built to do all three, but, there are effective DPS/Healer/Tank class and there are ineffective DPS/Healer/Tank class.

Nightblade is an effective DPS class (if the rumours are true, but testing not done), an effective Healer class and an ineffective Tank class.
Sorc is the best DPS class, an effective Healer class (but also the worst Healer class) and an extremely underrated Tank class.
Templar is an effective DPS class, the best Healer class, and a situational Tank class (outshines DK in PvP and 4-man content, DLC and DSA included, but falls short in vet trials).
Dragonknight is an effective DPS class, an effective healer class, and the best Tank class.
Warden is an ineffective DPS class (if the numbers here are to be believed), the second best Healer class, and an effective Tank class.

I totally agree with Vaoh on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure Vaoh will agree with me on this.

Besides the part about Sorcs being the best DPS class (was true in the past, but not anymore), I agree with you on pretty much everything

The most important thing you mention is what it means for a class to be effective.

If we assumed a Magicka Sorcerer pulls 36K, and a Magicka Warden pulls 34-35K, I would be *happy* and never play my Sorc again. Instead that Magicka Sorcerer pulling 36K would go up against a Warden pulling like 26-27K.

It's terrible how bad Warden DPS is. Hence, I push for buffs. The only people who disagree are whiny PvPers who don't read the context of a post or people who believe every class does only one role.

If magsorc is no longer the best, Is it stamDK now?

It's a bit more complicated right now, which is exactly what makes a Warden's situation worse. As a whole ZOS has balanced things pretty well.

All of the classes are pulling close to the same DPS in general, but bring different group buffs to a raid. You can bring any DPS and feel effective..... granted you aren't a Warden

DKs have insane single target and are the "top" Stam DPS with great Magicka DPS. NBs are just all around fantastic, and pull higher numbers than Sorcs for both Magicka and Stamina in single target. Sorcs are very noob-friendly and have amazing AoE DPS. Templars have high DPS but mainly shine in execute on Magicka, and are great on Stamina. As a whole, Stamina DPS > Magicka DPS, but is melee.

It all depends on your build and group composition. A Stam NB, Mag NB, and Stamplar can make great use of the HoF Major Slayers sets by using class-based low cost DPS ults. Mag DK provides a group fire damage buff. Stamplar provides PotL. NB gives Minor Savagery. Sorc gives Minor Prophecy. Templar gives Minor Sorcery. DK gives Minor Brutality. Etc, etc.

Although I try not to use Alcast as a perfect example since he streams and has a Youtube (making him automatically a horrible person to certain ppl), his group recently earned 180K in vHoF.

Group DPS composition was 4 Stam/4 Mag - there was only 1x Sorcerer build in their group, which was a Mag Sorc likely to gain that group Minor Prophecy and because Mag Sorc is still great and is certainly not underperforming.

It's really good to see that classes are balanced enough so people start focusing on group composition rather than "bringing the only class with the highest single target DPS"

Someday, magicka warden will be balanced too. I hope.

They're the only DPS class that isn't viable in vet trials right now.

wesly.backersb16_ESO · August 2017

For me an Argonian-Warden-Healer is equal (or maybe even better) to a Templar healer.
I keep up all groupmembers' health without problems.

It keeps magicka-pool all the time +60%. And when in need of magicka, 1 potions adds an extra +4k magicka to refill the pool.
I have no issue for Warden-healers. I have no experience in DPS

Artis · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Since you direct me to @Vaoh, I totally agree with him on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure he will agree with me on this, as will many other people in the community.

@hmsdragonfly he said "not as effective", which means "effective", but not as much. And indeed, he then said it's just not "competitive". So what do you agree with?

If the job is to hammer nails - is this the effective way because it gets the job done?

Politely asked you to answer many times already, but you keep forgetting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li223z2CreQ

If yes, then the head is the hammering tool which makes no sense and is patently false or there's no necessity in such tools/they don't exist/can't be defined, since anything can be used. Or is it not optimal and there are special tools that are optimal for the task? Yes, and that's how you define hammering tools and that hammer is a hammering tool because it's optimal and the head is not. Even though, as the video shows, it is effective. Just not as effective = not as efficient in this context. Not "competitive" as written by Vaoh who you agree with in another comment. So what do you totally agree with? Because what you quoted directly contradicts what he said later.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Someday, magicka warden will be balanced too. I hope.

They're the only DPS class that isn't viable in vet trials right now.

Define "viable", please. Because according to @hmsdragonfly favorite source, Oxford dictionary, viable = capable of working successfully; feasible. And then magicka warden DPS is viable. I saw one getting vhof HM down to 3% and he can get it soon if he keeps going.

The problem is that there is no reason to bring a magicka warden if you can bring, say , a magicka sorc instead. But they are viable and have enough DPS to get the job done. And they seem to be pretty okay in PvP, no?

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Since you direct me to @Vaoh, I totally agree with him on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure he will agree with me on this, as will many other people in the community.

@hmsdragonfly he said "not as effective", which means "effective", but not as much. And indeed, he then said it's just not "competitive". So what do you agree with?

If the job is to hammer nails - is this the effective way because it gets the job done?
Politely asked you to answer many times already, but you keep forgetting.
If yes, then the head is the hammering tool which makes no sense and is patently false or there's no necessity in such tools/they don't exist/can't be defined, since anything can be used. Or is it not optimal and there are special tools that are optimal for the task? Yes, and that's how you define hammering tools and that hammer is a hammering tool because it's optimal and the head is not. Even though, as the video shows, it is effective. Just not as effective = not as efficient in this context. Not "competitive" as written by Vaoh who you agree with in another comment. So what do you totally agree with? Because what you quoted directly contradicts what he said later.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Someday, magicka warden will be balanced too. I hope.

They're the only DPS class that isn't viable in vet trials right now.

Define "viable", please. Because according to favorite source, Oxford dictionary, viable = capable of working successfully; feasible. And then magicka warden DPS is viable. I saw one getting vhof HM down to 3% and he can get it soon if he keeps going.

The problem is that there is no reason to bring a magicka warden if you can bring, say , a magicka sorc instead. But they are viable and have enough DPS to get the job done. And they seem to be pretty okay in PvP, no?

Look, I don't care what your definition of "effective" is. I am not going to spend the rest of the day arguing what is effective and what is not, if you disagree with me, fine, Warden is a ___ DPS class, insert whatever you want in the blank, ineffective, inefficient, boring, funny, happy, high, evil, dead, Patrick from Spongebob, pay-to-lose, Batman, s'wit, fithy, Argonian, nix-ox, purple, bald, whatever the hell you like. Go bother Oxford with your nail hammering nonsense, just insert whatever you want in the blank, OK?

This is my final answer to everything, and if you have anything against it, so be it, your disagreement is duly noted. OK? Even if for you it's not OK, duly noted.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Patrick, please put your ego down for a moment and please hear me out this time. I will try to settle this once and for all. Your definition of "effective" (the one with the best result is effective and the one with the second best result is not) is different from the one made by Oxford.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/effective

effective
ADJECTIVE

Successful in producing a desired or intended result.
‘effective solutions to environmental problems’

The job of a DD is to pull the highest DPS number possible to complete the content. A DD kills things with 10 DPS is not being "effective", as in, he is not producing a desired or intended result. Let's say for example, if all classes can pull roughly 36k DPS, but Warden can only pull 30k DPS with the current toolkit, Wardens don't have the toolkit needed to be effective in DPSing compared to other classes, because the result Warden produces is clearly not desirable.
But, if Sorcs can pull 38k and DKs pull 37k, while DKs aren't producing the best result, they are producing a desired result, hence they are effective at what they are doing.

Now we take a look at healers. All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.

OK, tanks are next.
- Nightblade in the current states is an at best situational and at worst ineffective tank class. The job of a tank is to hold aggro, CC mobs, apply debuff, blow Warhorn and stay alive. Nightblade tanks have troubles staying alive in vet trials and their crowd control's capability is questionable. Although they are not useless because Sap tanking does work well in 4-man content, overall they just fall short.
- Sorc tanks, on the other hand, are extremely underrated (I am quoting Gilliam The Rouge here). They have all the tools needed to tank well, they have good sustain, good CC, cheap ults, I don't know why people don't utilize them more especially when top tier theorycrafters like Gilliam do see their potential. In PvP, Encase + Negate Sorc tanks are very scary and in a well coordinated group, they have potential to shine.
- Templar is in a pretty funny situation. They shine in 4-man content like Nightblade, with a Templar tank, people can run 3 DDs and don't need a healer. In PvP, they are the best tanks imo, outperform DKs by far. Templar tank/healbot is the most annoying thing and it's a nightmare to any 1vXer because not only you can't kill them, you can't kill their friends either because they just cast one BoL and their friends go back to full health. But, in vet trials, they are so bad because of their CC's capability is non-existent since the removal of stun from spear shard, and their stamina management is straight-up bad.
- We don't need to talk about DK and Warden tanks because we all know that they are good.

So what's not a DPS class?

A class is not a DPS class if the class doesn't have access to damage dealing abilities.
A class is not a tank class if the class doesn't have access to tanking abilities.
A class is not a healer class if the class doesn't have access to healing abilities.

So, there's no such thing as a DPS/Healer/Tank class, because they are all built to do all three, but, there are effective DPS/Healer/Tank class and there are ineffective DPS/Healer/Tank class.

+ Nightblade is an effective DPS class (if the rumours are true, but testing not done), an effective Healer class and an ineffective Tank class.
+ Sorc is the best DPS class, an effective Healer class (but also the worst Healer class) and an extremely underrated Tank class.
+ Templar is an effective DPS class, the best Healer class, and a situational Tank class (outshines DK in PvP and 4-man content, DLC and DSA included, but falls short in vet trials).
+Dragonknight is an effective DPS class, an effective healer class, and the best Tank class.
+ Warden is an ineffective DPS class (if the numbers here are to be believed), the second best Healer class, and an effective Tank class.

Since you direct me to @Vaoh, I totally agree with him on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure he will agree with me on this, as will many other people in the community.

cbaudersub17_ESO · August 2017

@hmsdragonfly: so now this person is also wanting to redefine or misuse the word 'viable'? Saw that I got hurty feeling tagged, too.

Tan9oSuccka · August 2017

I love getting hit with pigeons in Cyrodiil.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Since you direct me to @Vaoh, I totally agree with him on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure he will agree with me on this, as will many other people in the community.

@hmsdragonfly he said "not as effective", which means "effective", but not as much. And indeed, he then said it's just not "competitive". So what do you agree with?

If the job is to hammer nails - is this the effective way because it gets the job done?
Politely asked you to answer many times already, but you keep forgetting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li223z2CreQ
If yes, then the head is the hammering tool which makes no sense and is patently false or there's no necessity in such tools/they don't exist/can't be defined, since anything can be used. Or is it not optimal and there are special tools that are optimal for the task? Yes, and that's how you define hammering tools and that hammer is a hammering tool because it's optimal and the head is not. Even though, as the video shows, it is effective. Just not as effective = not as efficient in this context. Not "competitive" as written by Vaoh who you agree with in another comment. So what do you totally agree with? Because what you quoted directly contradicts what he said later.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Someday, magicka warden will be balanced too. I hope.

They're the only DPS class that isn't viable in vet trials right now.

Define "viable", please. Because according to @hmsdragonfly favorite source, Oxford dictionary, viable = capable of working successfully; feasible. And then magicka warden DPS is viable. I saw one getting vhof HM down to 3% and he can get it soon if he keeps going.

The problem is that there is no reason to bring a magicka warden if you can bring, say , a magicka sorc instead. But they are viable and have enough DPS to get the job done. And they seem to be pretty okay in PvP, no?

Competitive trial groups usually require 35k dps test. Magicka warden can't reach that number without some serious jumping through hoops. It's the only class that can't do this. And this is all without destro ult, which is pretty much mandatory in any serious run. You can't even hit 30k without the bear ult.

Being 5k+ dps behind all other magicka DPS classes, and 10-15k behind stamina classes is not at all viable.

Viable, competitive, effective, etc. all mean the same thing. Magicka warden is a positively awful class at the moment. By far the weakest in the entire game. They are a liability in trials.

kichwas · August 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

People keep saying "jack of all trades", but this isn't true at all. If they were, they'd be good at everything, but never the best or worst at anything. Right? This is not true at all for Wardens.

There is no Warden meta right now. This is mainly due to them being on par with or slightly below another class spec, or just flat out horrible.

In PvE, they make good tanks and healers. Unfortunately Templar is still the preferred healer, and DK is still the preferred tank. Wardens can be accepted in these roles though if you know what you're doing.

******** Healer - my Argonian Templar because it was the only race left I liked, and I happily discovered it was ideal.
I am finding that if you do know the Warden it is a very powerful healer - I prefer those over Templars here at the 'I am still leveling so I make mistakes when I tank" stage.

If they play it like it's a Templar though - it is horrible.

The Warden has heals that work in cones and lines and need to be aimed.

When I heal on mine I run all over the place and chase people down, avoid effects, and do all the things a good DPS or tank should also be doing.

But I sometimes get "Templar converts" who want to stand in one out of the way spot and 'artillery fire' their healing. These guys will either not do well and be silent, or not do well and demand we stop moving so much...

I also get Warden healers who play like me. If the tank is mixing x amount, the DPS moving 1.5x... a good warden is moving 2x as much as the tank is. And when they do - we get runs where we're all messing up but that Warden is still keeping us almost perma-topped-off.

So I prefer seeing a Warden healer over a Templar healer. I think it forces a player to be more active and situationally aware. The Warden healer cannot be played by the 'significant other player' (that player who hates gaming but plays to spend 'together time' with someone). It's kind of the healer to pick if you really like tanking or DPSing, but always wished you could do support that mattered and was just as engaging.

I think Warden healing is a superior 'gameplay design' than Templar healing. I can't yet say whether it is as powerful at 'group buffs' but I have already found the stamina and magika group regen buffs that people keep saying it is missing...

********** Tanking - my Khajiit Templar because let's make this harder on myself.

For tanking... I am simultaneously leveling 5 characters right now because I can't pick a "main" and because this lets me send the gear I just finished using on one over to the next one... They're all only level 20-22, but I am spamming dungeons with them...

So for the tanks, in "normal dungeons"... I think the DK is yes, the easiest to tank with in terms of toolset. But the Warden is number 2, and the Templar at this range struggles - I think I need to unlock more things in Undaunted and Alliance War and maybe even somewhere else, as well as finish my class skill line...

******** DPS

I don't play DPS in games, so I can't say here, even for early lowbie impressions. Character #4 for me is a sorcerer DPS and my biggest 'lead weight' on leveling these characters is forcing myself to play that one and avoiding the temptation to get her a resto-staff to make leveling "less painful"...

For perspective. My DK tank is Redguard, my Templar tank is Orc, my one DPS, the Sorcerer, is Dark Elf. With that I ran out of races I liked so I'm unlikely to make character number 6 soon. But maybe those choices will explain to some why I am finding certain classes better or worse while leveling?

kichwas · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Warden is the only class that can have a permanent 20% dodge bonus. Warden has a reliable and fantastic aoe lockdown. Wardens have great sustain and utility. I've shelved my DK tank and now main my Warden exclusively for for Trials/ dungeons/ PVE. Only thing a DK has over Warden are chains and Magma Armor, but permanent 30% speed buff and healing ultimate (or pirate skeleton) makes up for that (and it's fun as hell zipping around). Also with Pirate, you can have almost 100% major protection uptime.

Warden healers are just as good as Templars. DPS are okay; but with spinner/ destro/ archmage/ bsw (necro is getting nerfed) they're more than adequate dps. Can't be top tier at everything. But still competive. Could be a console stigma, too, since I've seen plenty of them in PC trials and dungeons.

You haven't seen plenty of them in competitive trial runs on PC. Just look at leader boards.

Morrowind is 2 months old right now right?

So even if Warden was as silly overpowered as the typical 'new class in an MMO expansion' is in most other MMOs - it would not yet have been seen much at top play (edit: yeah I slightly contradict this below... But it's a matter of degrees).

People don't just need to level it, they need to master it, and gear it. And I imagine at top play you have people with very high CP scores from being max level for a few years, and a whole toolkit they know so well they could do a trial with their monitor turned off (slight exaggeration).

I am NOT saying you are reaching the wrong conclusion. Only that I would not expect to see those top teams even trying them yet. Some of their members likely have some Warden alts - but at that level of play you often don't have much time to practice your alt, and your team leader is often very set against letting in 'test characters'.

You see new classes pop into top level raids in games like WoW within this time frame only because those games typically make a new classes way overpowered for the span of half their first expansion's lifecycle (WoW's Death Knight and Monk were both like this in at least 2 of their 3 specs) - and they make them easy to master, to get a LOT of people on them when they first launch. When a class outperforms every other class by 10-20% or more of a margin, a competitive group will quickly put it into the roster as a way to get a world first. But otherwise, such organized play groups are going to be smartly conservative about changes to their roster.

You don't swap out your quarterback midway through the Superbowl unless Superman tries out for your team...

Koensol · August 2017

Why do people post 'meta' after literally everything these days? As if that gives it more weight and meaning...

Jammer480 · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Since you direct me to @Vaoh, I totally agree with him on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure he will agree with me on this, as will many other people in the community.

@hmsdragonfly he said "not as effective", which means "effective", but not as much. And indeed, he then said it's just not "competitive". So what do you agree with?

If the job is to hammer nails - is this the effective way because it gets the job done?
Politely asked you to answer many times already, but you keep forgetting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li223z2CreQ
If yes, then the head is the hammering tool which makes no sense and is patently false or there's no necessity in such tools/they don't exist/can't be defined, since anything can be used. Or is it not optimal and there are special tools that are optimal for the task? Yes, and that's how you define hammering tools and that hammer is a hammering tool because it's optimal and the head is not. Even though, as the video shows, it is effective. Just not as effective = not as efficient in this context. Not "competitive" as written by Vaoh who you agree with in another comment. So what do you totally agree with? Because what you quoted directly contradicts what he said later.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Someday, magicka warden will be balanced too. I hope.

They're the only DPS class that isn't viable in vet trials right now.

Define "viable", please. Because according to @hmsdragonfly favorite source, Oxford dictionary, viable = capable of working successfully; feasible. And then magicka warden DPS is viable. I saw one getting vhof HM down to 3% and he can get it soon if he keeps going.

The problem is that there is no reason to bring a magicka warden if you can bring, say , a magicka sorc instead. But they are viable and have enough DPS to get the job done. And they seem to be pretty okay in PvP, no?

Competitive trial groups usually require 35k dps test. Magicka warden can't reach that number without some serious jumping through hoops. It's the only class that can't do this. And this is all without destro ult, which is pretty much mandatory in any serious run. You can't even hit 30k without the bear ult.

Being 5k+ dps behind all other magicka DPS classes, and 10-15k behind stamina classes is not at all viable.

Viable, competitive, effective, etc. all mean the same thing. Magicka warden is a positively awful class at the moment. By far the weakest in the entire game. They are a liability in trials.

You only mention dps...they're fine as tanks and healers, even in competitive groups.

Saturn · August 2017

If we are talking PvE then I think Wardens really only excel as healers, but I have yet to see any warden tanks, so I don't know if that could be good too. DPS-wise they are in a bad spot, due to their incredibly meager lineup of damage skills, not to mention lack thereof.

For PvP they are quite solid in all capacities, and as damage dealers they are helped by their two animal companion skills Cliff Racer and Scorch, which are very difficult to counter, the former being undodgeable, unreflectable, incredibly spammable and has a 28 meter ranger, the latter being hard to counter due to the instant pop-up, which only tell are some slight circles at the feet of the caster. With their wide range of heals and defensive skills they are also quite tanky, and I'm definitely beginning to dislike going 1v1 with any competent wardens as people get better at playing them.

Similar to magicka sorcerers that were buggered in PvE for the longest time, but godlike in PvP, so too does the Warden have this weird duality where it sucks in one setting and excels in the other. I think it's fair to say that very little proper testing and comparison to current classes were made when the Warden was designed, as it's skill lineup is messy and it cannot accurately fulfill its role as a jack-of-all-trades.

117Dios · August 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

People keep saying "jack of all trades", but this isn't true at all. If they were, they'd be good at everything, but never the best or worst at anything. Right? This is not true at all for Wardens.

There is no Warden meta right now. This is mainly due to them being on par with or slightly below another class spec, or just flat out horrible.

In PvE, they make good tanks and healers. Unfortunately Templar is still the preferred healer, and DK is still the preferred tank. Wardens can be accepted in these roles though if you know what you're doing.
Damage Dealing Wardens are significantly behind in DPS. It doesn't even compare to other classes. You get laughed at for trying to bring one in a trial, especially if you're a Magicka Warden.

As long as you don't care about any competitive content, Wardens are fine.... everything is technically balanced in ESO when viewed this way. However, if you are looking for effectiveness, do not choose a Warden for PvE DPS. They are the only class that is horrible at it.

If choosing a role for your Warden based on effectiveness, I'd say to create a Warden Tank or Healer, leaning mostly toward a Tank.

that is the literal definition of jack of all trades, master of none

you even agreed to it

Artis · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Viable, competitive, effective, etc. all mean the same thing. Magicka warden is a positively awful class at the moment. By far the weakest in the entire game. They are a liability in trials.

@MLGProPlayer does "etc" include efficient?

@hmsdragonfly @cbaudersub17_ESO see? More people using effective, viable as synonyms to competitive, i.e. optimal. Not just getting the desired result. And your "final answer" didn't answer anything, that's not what I asked at all. Moreover, it's self-contradictory, because in the end you say you completely agree with Vaoh, when he uses the word "effective" as a synonym to the word "competitive", i.e. optimal. So then everything sub-optimal is ineffective? Then nontemplar healer are ineffective together with warden DPS and I'd agree. But for some reason you have a double standard here and the former is effective and the latter isn't effective for you.

And the video clearly shows that the desired result is achieved, then the head is a a hammering tool? No, we know it's not. Because something being a hammering/healing/DPS tool is defined by it's superiority to other tools, it's designed for this specific task and is optimal compared to other options. Which makes a hammer a hammering tool and head - not a hammering tool EVEN though it's effective and get's the job done. Similarly - there are healer classes and dps classes, even though all classes can heal and deal just enough DPS. Just some are optimal and others are not. But it's ok, take your time to answer. I'll ask you in another thread where it's appropriate later.

@cbaudersub17_ESO how come trying to redefine? I just copypasted the definition from the Oxford dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/viable where am I wrong?

Being 5k+ dps behind all other magicka DPS classes, and 10-15k behind stamina classes is not at all viable.

It is viable, just not optimal. Right, @hmsdragonfly ? The oxford definition is linked just above.

p.s. OP, just wait until Monday for the new update and then a couple of weeks until people see what works. The relative difference of warden's DPS and other classes' DPS might change.

qsnoopyjr · August 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

People keep saying "jack of all trades", but this isn't true at all. If they were, they'd be good at everything, but never the best or worst at anything. Right? This is not true at all for Wardens.

Wardens are good at everything, support for DPS, support for healing, support for tanks.
It's just a lot of classes are masters at DPS, few are masters at tank and healing.

Wardens being a jack of trades, just doesnt make good viable when you got a lot of masters.

All the other classes can master something, but then they cannot do something else.
Meanwhile Warden cannot master anything, but they can be good at everything.

Of course when you got the DK, Sorc, Temp, and NB going all out DPS... Warden all out DPS will not match. But Warden can do some heals and tank support too while the other classes cannot do it.

When you got a game, where everyone is played to a specific role, you wanna be a master at it, not a jack of trades type class.
Like in Everquest at end game, you want that Warrior tank, not a paladin or shadowknight. You want that cleric healing, not that druid or shaman healing.

majulook · August 2017

I find that most of the critics of the Warden have never played one.

While not as strong a DPS as my other characters.

I find my Magden does very well in PVE. I am in the Rift finishing up Cadwell's Silver.

I find I can solo most Dolmens, and some of the World Bosses in the world. Never had a problem with Delve's or Dungeon's
I have completed Vvardenfel, some Trials (SO, AA, MoL), and some Undaunted daily's (norm and vet).
(Also completed both Bloodroot Forge and Falkreath Hold on PTS with this character).

Need to finish:
Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood. (I most of the passives for both these).
Wrothgar - done Old Orsinium, Rkindaleft, and in group for all the WB daily's once.

Currently using:
5pc TBS with Shadow/Thief Mundus
5pc Necropotence (belt, glove, and jewelry)
Sharpened destro Flame Staff w/Oblivion dmg (front bar)
Sharpened destro Lightning Staff w/Oblivion dmg (back bar)

I may need to change some stuff after Aug 14 update.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

majulook wrote: »

I find that most of the critics of the Warden have never played one.

While not as strong a DPS as my other characters.

I find my Magden does very well in PVE. I am in the Rift finishing up Cadwell's Silver.

I find I can solo most Dolmens, and some of the World Bosses in the world. Never had a problem with Delve's or Dungeon's
I have completed Vvardenfel, some Trials (SO, AA, MoL), and some Undaunted daily's (norm and vet).
(Also completed both Bloodroot Forge and Falkreath Hold on PTS with this character).

Need to finish:
Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood. (I most of the passives for both these).
Wrothgar - done Old Orsinium, Rkindaleft, and in group for all the WB daily's once.

Currently using:
5pc TBS with Shadow/Thief Mundus
5pc Necropotence (belt, glove, and jewelry)
Sharpened destro Flame Staff w/Oblivion dmg (front bar)
Sharpened destro Lightning Staff w/Oblivion dmg (back bar)

I may need to change some stuff after Aug 14 update.

Any class can complete overland content, vet dungeons, and normal trials.

DPS magicka wardens really struggle in vet trials though,. I don't like them in vet DLC dungeons either as they unneccessarily prolong fights.

I have a fully levelled and geared magicka warden (all skills unlocked). I desperately want to make it my main as I enjoy the play style, but the horrid DPS makes that extremely difficult.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

Of course when you got the DK, Sorc, Temp, and NB going all out DPS... Warden all out DPS will not match. But Warden can do some heals and tank support too while the other classes cannot do it.

You can't provide support while DPSing. There is not enough room in your rotation. If you add support skills to your rotiation, your DPS drops even further. They don't have any hybrid skills that are both offensive and provide support, like templar, example. Rune Focus and Ritual of Retribution are both offensive skills that provide group support. A templar does not lose DPS by slotting them. Warden doesn't have anything like that.

Magicka warden is objectively a terrible DPS class. They parse 5k+ behind all other magicka DPS classes. They cannot meet most DPS benchmarks.

As a jack of all-trades, they should be a decent DPS class. Even if the worst, they should not be this far behind.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Viable, competitive, effective, etc. all mean the same thing. Magicka warden is a positively awful class at the moment. By far the weakest in the entire game. They are a liability in trials.

@MLGProPlayer does "etc" include efficient?

@hmsdragonfly @cbaudersub17_ESO see? More people using effective, viable as synonyms to competitive, i.e. optimal. Not just getting the desired result. And your "final answer" didn't answer anything, that's not what I asked at all. Moreover, it's self-contradictory, because in the end you say you completely agree with Vaoh, when he uses the word "effective" as a synonym to the word "competitive", i.e. optimal. So then everything sub-optimal is ineffective? Then nontemplar healer are ineffective together with warden DPS and I'd agree. But for some reason you have a double standard here and the former is effective and the latter isn't effective for you.

And the video clearly shows that the desired result is achieved, then the head is a a hammering tool? No, we know it's not. Because something being a hammering/healing/DPS tool is defined by it's superiority to other tools, it's designed for this specific task and is optimal compared to other options. Which makes a hammer a hammering tool and head - not a hammering tool EVEN though it's effective and get's the job done. Similarly - there are healer classes and dps classes, even though all classes can heal and deal just enough DPS. Just some are optimal and others are not. But it's ok, take your time to answer. I'll ask you in another thread where it's appropriate later.

@cbaudersub17_ESO how come trying to redefine? I just copypasted the definition from the Oxford dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/viable where am I wrong?

Being 5k+ dps behind all other magicka DPS classes, and 10-15k behind stamina classes is not at all viable.

It is viable, just not optimal. Right, @hmsdragonfly ? The oxford definition is linked just above.

p.s. OP, just wait until Monday for the new update and then a couple of weeks until people see what works. The relative difference of warden's DPS and other classes' DPS might change.

Of course it includes "efficient" too. And magicka warden is an extremely inefficient DPS class.

Their putrid DPS means that boss fights last longer than they should. With no AOE ult, it means that trash mob fights last longer than they should. That's inefficiency. That's why no team with leader board ambitions will ever bring one along.

I'm not sure what your argument even is. Magicka warden is a terrible DPS class. This is objective fact. Nothing to debate. Arguing about definitions of words is grasping for straws.

Integral1900 · August 2017

It's a fun class but in pve it just doesn't have the teeth

Artis · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Of course it includes "efficient" too. And magicka warden is an extremely inefficient DPS class.

See @hmsdragonfly @cbaudersub17_ESO? people use these words as synonyms/interchangeable.

@MLGProPlayer is English your first language btw?

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Their putrid DPS means that boss fights last longer than they should. With no AOE ult, it means that trash mob fights last longer than they should.

I'm not sure what your argument even is. Magicka warden is a terrible DPS class. This is objective fact. Nothing to debate. Arguing about definitions of words is grasping for straws.

I know what you mean. No reason to bring a class that is weaker than others when you can bring a stronger class. Worse resource management (and shards > orbs still) - fights last longer, no chains? - fights last longer, less damage? - fights last longer.

My argument is that magicka warden is not a terrible DPS class, it's a class terrible in DPS and hence not a DPS class at all at the moment. Just like there are tank and healer classes. That's my argument. Also, not quite arguing with you, as you see above - I agree and understand you completely.

But then again, look what happened when people asked to buff DPS of other classes before Morrowind https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/342362/rip-nightblades-assuming-they-were-alive-at-one-point/p1 where @hmsdragonfly would derail the thread not being able to understand that NB wasn't a DPS class at the moment, which OP tried to explain and other NBs agreed or commented something similar even before it even started. And that's a person who said that it's important what "community" wants when NB community disagreed and he was just being laughed at and humiliated but still kept trolling poor OP. To reiterate - I'm not arguing with you, if you didn't get it yet

Jammer480 · August 2017

I don't understand why people say the warden is bad just because it lacks in dps...great tank, solid heals. It doesn't need to be a 40k trial dps.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

Jammer480 wrote: »

I don't understand why people say the warden is bad just because it lacks in dps...great tank, solid heals. It doesn't need to be a 40k trial dps.

It's not even a 35k DPS class...

And it doesn't have an AOE ult either (if you slot an AOE ult, it's not even a 30k DPS class...)

It's a hundred miles behind the next worst DPS class, and that's unacceptable for end game.

SanTii.92 · August 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

I think the first priority got to be to let the bear be single barred it. It's functionality is too straight forward to occupy both ult slots, and can't really compete with the utility that brings a second ult for pvp nor the aoe for pve, even when it's single target dmge is fine. Not to mention the pathing issues it still probably has.

Increase proc cost to 85, move some dmge from the basic attacks to the proc, so you got to choose aoe/utility or single dmge, split the dmge into 2 hits, so it's not too oppresive for pvp, and allow us to single bar it.

Probably not enough but i'd start there.

Jammer480 · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jammer480 wrote: »

I don't understand why people say the warden is bad just because it lacks in dps...great tank, solid heals. It doesn't need to be a 40k trial dps.

It's not even a 35k DPS, and that's a problem. It doesn't even have an AOE ult.

But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

Jammer480 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jammer480 wrote: »

I don't understand why people say the warden is bad just because it lacks in dps...great tank, solid heals. It doesn't need to be a 40k trial dps.

It's not even a 35k DPS, and that's a problem. It doesn't even have an AOE ult.

But that's my point...it doesn't need that. 25-30k is doable and fine for enjoying 99% of the game contents, including vma. No, it's not competitive or built for speed runs or top scores. But a warden healer or tank CAN be part of the competitive aspect of the game. Still can't see the issue...

The issue is that the 4 other classes can all run competitive end game content. Warden shouldn't be left out.

DK and templar can both support and DPS in end game. No reason why warden can't either. It doesn't need to be the best DPS class. It can be the worst. It just needs to be viable. If it was 1-2k DPS behind the other classes, it would be viable for end game. But at 5k+ behind, no chance.