My Warden is a "Paladin" build that I came up with. He's tanky enough to survive 2 DPS players either for a very long time or never. He heals well enough that he can't be ignored either. I love my Warden

MornaBaine wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

So okay I will only ever derp about in PvE on my 2 wardens. One is a Breton and will go Magicka and primarily healer. The other is a Nord and I'd like to go Stam and two-hander with her. Suggestions please?

Breton Healer Warden: Spell Power Cure + Worm Cult/Twilight Remedy with Master Resto and Lightning Staves

Thanks for that! Now I just need advice for my Nord... who is also a werewolf.

Pirate Skeleton, Knight Errant, Undaunted set (heavy, from Elden). All easy to get, also a stamina build with a decent damage shield. Puncture your way to glory! Cackle when you turn into a skeleton and use northern star as soon as it's off proc.

FakeFox wrote: »

DPS on Magicka isn't bad either.

Sorry, what?

DPS on magicka warden is positively awful. They can't even crack 30k on the target skeleton without the bear ult equipped. And even with it equipped, you're looking at 32-33k DPS self-buffed.

Vaoh wrote: »

As long as you don't care about any competitive content, Wardens are fine.... everything is technically balanced in ESO when viewed this way. However, if you are looking for effectiveness, do not choose a Warden for PvE DPS. They are the only class that is horrible at it.

If choosing a role for your Warden based on effectiveness, I'd say to create a Warden Tank or Healer, leaning mostly toward a Tank.

I decided to create a Warden character for kicks, and I kinda like it. I'm not doing anything special, but I like the healing aspects and can really help a group. Yes, probably not as good as Templar, but then I haven't fully exploited the Warden yet, either.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Warden is the only class that can have a permanent 20% dodge bonus. Warden has a reliable and fantastic aoe lockdown. Wardens have great sustain and utility. I've shelved my DK tank and now main my Warden exclusively for for Trials/ dungeons/ PVE. Only thing a DK has over Warden are chains and Magma Armor, but permanent 30% speed buff and healing ultimate (or pirate skeleton) makes up for that (and it's fun as hell zipping around). Also with Pirate, you can have almost 100% major protection uptime.

Warden healers are just as good as Templars. DPS are okay; but with spinner/ destro/ archmage/ bsw (necro is getting nerfed) they're more than adequate dps. Can't be top tier at everything. But still competive. Could be a console stigma, too, since I've seen plenty of them in PC trials and dungeons.

You haven't seen plenty of them in competitive trial runs on PC. Just look at leader boards.

I said PC Trials, nothing about competitive metas which are exclusionary across the board. Even still, Wardens aren't 'unseen' in the leaderboards. They do exist even in that environment (but aren't favoured).

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

People keep saying "jack of all trades", but this isn't true at all. If they were, they'd be good at everything, but never the best or worst at anything. Right? This is not true at all for Wardens.

There is no Warden meta right now. This is mainly due to them being on par with or slightly below another class spec, or just flat out horrible.

In PvE, they make good tanks and healers. Unfortunately Templar is still the preferred healer, and DK is still the preferred tank. Wardens can be accepted in these roles though if you know what you're doing.
Damage Dealing Wardens are significantly behind in DPS. It doesn't even compare to other classes. You get laughed at for trying to bring one in a trial, especially if you're a Magicka Warden.

As long as you don't care about any competitive content, Wardens are fine.... everything is technically balanced in ESO when viewed this way. However, if you are looking for effectiveness, do not choose a Warden for PvE DPS. They are the only class that is horrible at it.

If choosing a role for your Warden based on effectiveness, I'd say to create a Warden Tank or Healer, leaning mostly toward a Tank.

@cbaudersub17_ESO @hmsdragonfly

Here, another example of the use of the word. Now go ahead, and tell him that warden DPS's effectiveness is okay, because it gets the job done. Because of course they kill things - any DPS who pushes more than 0 DPS kills things at some point. And warden's DPS is enough to complete content, so it's effective = it's effectiveness is just fine. In case you didn't see the thread yet, expected you to comment about that last paragraph already.

@Vaoh, but with all the utility they can bring and options to play other roles better than many other classes, shouldn't their DPS be lower? Not much lower, but 10-20(-25?)% seems kinda fair. Much more than that could be too much of course, less than 10% is pretty much negligible in practice. What would you like their DPS to be compared to others?

Vaoh mains a sorc: lives under the presumption that all classes should be as OP and flawless.

SoLooney wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Well for pve there is a warden pulling 37k with MD and Juliano's and a kena piece. I'm trying Scathing and Necro or scathing and julianos. Push bout 27k with purple gear and a percise vMA shock staff.

I think youre talking about stileana, yea, if i can get the moondancer 5 piece bonus proccing, all my magicka char would see a huge boost in dps too, i have yet to see a dps test where a mag warden gets above 30k without moondancer proc, just someone casting ele drain

Synergies also give you magicka of course so you don't need to heavy attack during the test.

A self-buffed magicka warden DPS test is depressing. I'm still shocked at how ZOS testers could release (and charge people money for) such an awful class.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Is there any way to make people in your ignore list unable to tag you? It's already annoying that I can see the name of people in my Ignore List when they post stuffs, now they even can tag me and it appears on my Notifications.

@Artis , Patrick, please put your ego down for a moment and please hear me out this time. I will try to settle this once and for all. Your definition of "effective" (the one with the best result is effective and the one with the second best result is not) is different from the one made by Oxford.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/effective

effective
ADJECTIVE

Successful in producing a desired or intended result.
‘effective solutions to environmental problems’

The job of a DD is to pull the highest DPS number possible to complete the content. A DD kills things with 10 DPS is not being "effective", as in, he is not producing a desired or intended result. Let's say for example, if all classes can pull roughly 36k DPS, but Warden can only pull 30k DPS with the current toolkit, Wardens don't have the toolkit needed to be effective in DPSing compared to other classes, because the result Warden produces is clearly not desirable.
But, if Sorcs can pull 38k and DKs pull 37k, while DKs aren't producing the best result, they are producing a desired result, hence they are effective at what they are doing.

Now we take a look at healers. All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS and pulling the highest HPS is irrelevant to everything anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.

OK, tanks are next.
- Nightblade in the current states is an at best situational and at worst ineffective tank class. The job of a tank is to hold aggro, CC mobs, apply debuff, blow Warhorn and stay alive. Nightblade tanks have troubles staying alive in vet trials and their crowd control's capability is questionable. Although they are not useless because Sap tanking does work well in 4-man content, overall they just fall short.
- Sorc tanks, on the other hand, are extremely underrated (I am quoting Gilliam The Rouge here). They have all the tools needed to tank well, they have good sustain, good CC, cheap ults, I don't know why people don't utilize them more especially when top tier theorycrafters like Gilliam do see their potential. In PvP, Encase + Negate Sorc tanks are very scary and in a well coordinated group, they have potential to shine.
- Templar is in a pretty funny situation. They shine in 4-man content like Nightblade, with a Templar tank, people can run 3 DDs and don't need a healer. In PvP, they are the best tanks imo, outperform DKs by far. Templar tank/healbot is the most annoying thing and it's a nightmare to any 1vXer because not only you can't kill them, you can't kill their friends either because they just cast one BoL and their friends go back to full health. But, in vet trials, they are so bad because of their CC's capability is non-existent since the removal of stun from spear shard, and their stamina management is straight-up bad.
- We don't need to talk about DK and Warden tanks because we all know that they are good.

So what's not a DPS class?

A class is not a DPS class if the class doesn't have access to damage dealing abilities.
A class is not a tank class if the class doesn't have access to tanking abilities.
A class is not a healer class if the class doesn't have access to healing abilities.

So, there's no such thing as a DPS/Healer/Tank class, because they are all built to do all three, but, there are effective DPS/Healer/Tank class and there are ineffective DPS/Healer/Tank class.

+ Nightblade is an effective DPS class (if the rumours are true, but testing not done), an effective Healer class and an ineffective Tank class.
+ Sorc is the best DPS class, an effective Healer class (but also the worst Healer class) and an extremely underrated Tank class.
+ Templar is an effective DPS class, the best Healer class, and a situational Tank class (outshines DK in PvP and 4-man content, DLC and DSA included, but falls short in vet trials).
+Dragonknight is an effective DPS class, an effective healer class, and the best Tank class.
+ Warden is an ineffective DPS class (if the numbers here are to be believed), the second best Healer class, and an effective Tank class.

Since you direct me to @Vaoh, I totally agree with him on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure he will agree with me on this, as will many other people in the community.

Vaoh wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno Is there any way to make people in your ignore list unable to tag you? It's already annoying that I can see the name of people in my Ignore List when they post stuffs, now they even can tag me and it appears on my Notifications.

Artis , Patrick, please put your ego down for a moment and please hear me out this time. I will try to settle this once and for all. Your definition of "effective" (the one with the best result is effective and the one with the second best effective is not) is different from the one made by Oxford.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/effective

effective
ADJECTIVE

Successful in producing a desired or intended result.
‘effective solutions to environmental problems’

The job of a DD is to pull the highest DPS number possible to complete the content. A DD kills things with 10 DPS is not being "effective", as in, he is not producing a desired or intended result. Let's say for example, if all classes can pull roughly 36k DPS, but Warden can only pull 30k DPS with the current toolkit, Wardens don't have the toolkit needed to be effective in DPSing compared to other classes, because the result Warden produces is clearly not desirable.
But, if Sorcs can pull 38k and DKs pull 37k, while DKs aren't producing the best result, they are producing a desired result, hence they are effective at what they are doing.

Now we take a look at healers. All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.

OK, tanks are next.
- Nightblade is at the current states are at best situational and at worst ineffective tank class. The job of a tank is to hold aggro, CC mobs, apply debuff, blow Warhorn and stay alive. Nightblade tanks have troubles staying alive in vet trials and their crowd control's capability is questionable. Although they are not useless because Sap tanking does work well in 4-man content, overall they just fall short.
- Sorc tanks, on the other hand, are extremely underrated (I am quoting Gilliam The Rouge here). They have all the tools needed to tank well, they have good sustain, good CC, cheap ults, I don't know why people don't utilize them more especially when top tier theorycrafters like Gilliam do see their potential. In PvP, Encase + Negate Sorc tanks are very scary and in a well coordinated group, they have potential to shine.
- Templar is in a pretty funny situation. They shine in 4-man content like Nightblade, with a Templar tank, people can run 3 DDs and don't need a healer. In PvP, they are the best tanks imo, outperform DKs by far. Templar tank/healbot is the most annoying thing and it's a nightmare to any 1vXer because not only you can't kill them, you can't kill their friends either because they just cast one BoL and their friends go back to full health. But, in vet trials, they are so bad because of their CC's capability is non-existent since the removal of stun from spear shard, and their stamina management is straight-up bad.
- We don't need to talk about DK and Warden tanks because we all know that they are good.

So what's not a DPS class?

A class is not a DPS class if the class doesn't have access to any damage dealing abilities.
A class is not a tank class if the class is not built with tanking abilities.
A class is not a healer class if the class is not built with healing abilities.

So, there's no such thing as a DPS/Healer/Tank class, because they are all built to do all three, but, there are effective DPS/Healer/Tank class and there are ineffective DPS/Healer/Tank class.

Nightblade is an effective DPS class (if the rumours are true, but testing not done), an effective Healer class and an ineffective Tank class.
Sorc is the best DPS class, an effective Healer class (but also the worst Healer class) and an extremely underrated Tank class.
Templar is an effective DPS class, the best Healer class, and a situational Tank class (outshines DK in PvP and 4-man content, DLC and DSA included, but falls short in vet trials).
Dragonknight is an effective DPS class, an effective healer class, and the best Tank class.
Warden is an ineffective DPS class (if the numbers here are to be believed), the second best Healer class, and an effective Tank class.

I totally agree with Vaoh on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure Vaoh will agree with me on this.

Besides the part about Sorcs being the best DPS class (was true in the past, but not anymore), I agree with you on pretty much everything

The most important thing you mention is what it means for a class to be effective.

If we assumed a Magicka Sorcerer pulls 36K, and a Magicka Warden pulls 34-35K, I would be *happy* and never play my Sorc again. Instead that Magicka Sorcerer pulling 36K would go up against a Warden pulling like 26-27K.

It's terrible how bad Warden DPS is. Hence, I push for buffs. The only people who disagree are whiny PvPers who don't read the context of a post or people who believe every class does only one role.

If magsorc is no longer the best, Is it stamDK now?

Blanco wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Be a tank and cancerous. You've just entered the Warden meta.

Wardens are the cancer of PvP. You want to contribute to that?

where did the cliff racer touch you?
do you need a Waambulance?

nowhere significant, a warden can't kill anything, it just sits in it's healing ulti avoiding fights so it can focus on its little baby 'objectives' because it can't stand there and fight.

Summoning @Tryxus. Dude one-clips everyone with Soul Assault.

Vaoh wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno Is there any way to make people in your ignore list unable to tag you? It's already annoying that I can see the name of people in my Ignore List when they post stuffs, now they even can tag me and it appears on my Notifications.

Artis , Patrick, please put your ego down for a moment and please hear me out this time. I will try to settle this once and for all. Your definition of "effective" (the one with the best result is effective and the one with the second best effective is not) is different from the one made by Oxford.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/effective

effective
ADJECTIVE

Successful in producing a desired or intended result.
‘effective solutions to environmental problems’

The job of a DD is to pull the highest DPS number possible to complete the content. A DD kills things with 10 DPS is not being "effective", as in, he is not producing a desired or intended result. Let's say for example, if all classes can pull roughly 36k DPS, but Warden can only pull 30k DPS with the current toolkit, Wardens don't have the toolkit needed to be effective in DPSing compared to other classes, because the result Warden produces is clearly not desirable.
But, if Sorcs can pull 38k and DKs pull 37k, while DKs aren't producing the best result, they are producing a desired result, hence they are effective at what they are doing.

Now we take a look at healers. All 5 classes have all the tools needed to be effective in healing. If we do a HPS test, for sure all classes will still produce more or less the same amount of HPS, so HPS is out of the way. The job of the DPS is to pull the highest number possible to complete the content as quickly as they can, and the job of the healer is to
1) Pull enough HPS to heal through all encounters, but that's out of the way because all of them pull more or less equal HPS anyway.
2) Support the group: feed resources to the group, burst heal in scary situations, blow Warhorn.
It used to be the case that non-Templar healers weren't effective because they couldn't support the group with stamina, but now all classes can provide the group with both magicka and stamina through orbs, and all classes can apply minor magickasteal, they can do everything a Templar healer does so they are all effective in healing. Sure, we can go all days to list pros and cons of each class, but it doesn't matter because overall all classes can do everything listed above.

OK, tanks are next.
- Nightblade is at the current states are at best situational and at worst ineffective tank class. The job of a tank is to hold aggro, CC mobs, apply debuff, blow Warhorn and stay alive. Nightblade tanks have troubles staying alive in vet trials and their crowd control's capability is questionable. Although they are not useless because Sap tanking does work well in 4-man content, overall they just fall short.
- Sorc tanks, on the other hand, are extremely underrated (I am quoting Gilliam The Rouge here). They have all the tools needed to tank well, they have good sustain, good CC, cheap ults, I don't know why people don't utilize them more especially when top tier theorycrafters like Gilliam do see their potential. In PvP, Encase + Negate Sorc tanks are very scary and in a well coordinated group, they have potential to shine.
- Templar is in a pretty funny situation. They shine in 4-man content like Nightblade, with a Templar tank, people can run 3 DDs and don't need a healer. In PvP, they are the best tanks imo, outperform DKs by far. Templar tank/healbot is the most annoying thing and it's a nightmare to any 1vXer because not only you can't kill them, you can't kill their friends either because they just cast one BoL and their friends go back to full health. But, in vet trials, they are so bad because of their CC's capability is non-existent since the removal of stun from spear shard, and their stamina management is straight-up bad.
- We don't need to talk about DK and Warden tanks because we all know that they are good.

So what's not a DPS class?

A class is not a DPS class if the class doesn't have access to any damage dealing abilities.
A class is not a tank class if the class is not built with tanking abilities.
A class is not a healer class if the class is not built with healing abilities.

So, there's no such thing as a DPS/Healer/Tank class, because they are all built to do all three, but, there are effective DPS/Healer/Tank class and there are ineffective DPS/Healer/Tank class.

Nightblade is an effective DPS class (if the rumours are true, but testing not done), an effective Healer class and an ineffective Tank class.
Sorc is the best DPS class, an effective Healer class (but also the worst Healer class) and an extremely underrated Tank class.
Templar is an effective DPS class, the best Healer class, and a situational Tank class (outshines DK in PvP and 4-man content, DLC and DSA included, but falls short in vet trials).
Dragonknight is an effective DPS class, an effective healer class, and the best Tank class.
Warden is an ineffective DPS class (if the numbers here are to be believed), the second best Healer class, and an effective Tank class.

I totally agree with Vaoh on Warden not being effective in DPS and I am sure Vaoh will agree with me on this.

Besides the part about Sorcs being the best DPS class (was true in the past, but not anymore), I agree with you on pretty much everything

The most important thing you mention is what it means for a class to be effective.

If we assumed a Magicka Sorcerer pulls 36K, and a Magicka Warden pulls 34-35K, I would be *happy* and never play my Sorc again. Instead that Magicka Sorcerer pulling 36K would go up against a Warden pulling like 26-27K.

It's terrible how bad Warden DPS is. Hence, I push for buffs. The only people who disagree are whiny PvPers who don't read the context of a post or people who believe every class does only one role.

If magsorc is no longer the best, Is it stamDK now?

It's a bit more complicated right now, which is exactly what makes a Warden's situation worse. As a whole ZOS has balanced things pretty well.

All of the classes are pulling close to the same DPS in general, but bring different group buffs to a raid. You can bring any DPS and feel effective..... granted you aren't a Warden

DKs have insane single target and are the "top" Stam DPS with great Magicka DPS. NBs are just all around fantastic, and pull higher numbers than Sorcs for both Magicka and Stamina in single target. Sorcs are very noob-friendly and have amazing AoE DPS. Templars have high DPS but mainly shine in execute on Magicka, and are great on Stamina. As a whole, Stamina DPS > Magicka DPS, but is melee.

It all depends on your build and group composition. A Stam NB, Mag NB, and Stamplar can make great use of the HoF Major Slayers sets by using class-based low cost DPS ults. Mag DK provides a group fire damage buff. Stamplar provides PotL. NB gives Minor Savagery. Sorc gives Minor Prophecy. Templar gives Minor Sorcery. DK gives Minor Brutality. Etc, etc.

Although I try not to use Alcast as a perfect example since he streams and has a Youtube (making him automatically a horrible person to certain ppl), his group recently earned 180K in vHoF.

Group DPS composition was 4 Stam/4 Mag - there was only 1x Sorcerer build in their group, which was a Mag Sorc likely to gain that group Minor Prophecy and because Mag Sorc is still great and is certainly not underperforming.

It's really good to see that classes are balanced enough so people start focusing on group composition rather than "bringing the only class with the highest single target DPS"

I am still levelling my stam Warden in Kyne but I really like playing it. It plays much like any 2h/bow stam class with bug assault for extra burst, screamy wings for mobility, glowy netch for stam recovery & magic forest for heals.

.