Why are MagPlars Perma-Op even after dozens of nerf's?

Baconlad · July 2017

Ok... @DeHei did not mean to be so rude...

So tell me, for the sake of all those that do not know, what stun is better than javy, why its better than javy, even include other classes stuns if you must.

I do not see how any single stun can possibly be better than javy, save for maybe somthing like fossilize for a magplar using sweeps spam. Having the root after the stun would be excelent.

In the case of sweep spam, why though is it not better to just rely on the stun from toppling, if the arguement is that blazing spear was better than toppling for close range, why would that be better than javy. Cause i have used javy even at its longer knockback range in place of toppling charge and blazing spear stun, and have always felt better.

Please tell.

Baconlad · July 2017

Ah and you keep saying that PC enemies are just better. Ok i cant argue that, being that ive played since 2014 you should know by now i do in fact play on PC.

So your telling me i could not possible get a javelin off on a "good player". Sorry man, but if you get stunned by anything in game, youll also get stunned by javy. "Good players" get stunned too. Stop kidding yourself. Name a player who streams, and ill show you a video of him getting stunned...there is nothing different about javelins stun compared to any other ranged stun...so if you can get stunned by frags/ stone fist/ destructive reach...you will get stunned by javy. Very missleading arguement

Akinos · July 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

Ok... @DeHei did not mean to be so rude...

So tell me, for the sake of all those that do not know, what stun is better than javy, why its better than javy, even include other classes stuns if you must.

I do not see how any single stun can possibly be better than javy, save for maybe somthing like fossilize for a magplar using sweeps spam. Having the root after the stun would be excelent.

In the case of sweep spam, why though is it not better to just rely on the stun from toppling, if the arguement is that blazing spear was better than toppling for close range, why would that be better than javy. Cause i have used javy even at its longer knockback range in place of toppling charge and blazing spear stun, and have always felt better.

Please tell.

Invigorating drain>javelin.

Baconlad · July 2017

I dont like invigorating drain on most damage magplar builds. Man i tried that out like two weekends ago, the lag made it friggin impossible to break the beam with block, although the ultimate is REALLY nice. Lag makes it worse than a instant stun. I still chose javy

Invigorating is a staple on my blazing shield build XD.

Edit: for close range sweeps spam, yeah...i may choose it over javy, but its rough not having that range for me

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i just dont get it, someone enlighten me.

1-Cleansing Ritual and it's morphs, particularly extended ritual.

2-purifying light.

Minno · July 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

I dont like invigorating drain on most damage magplar builds. Man i tried that out like two weekends ago, the lag made it friggin impossible to break the beam with block, although the ultimate is REALLY nice. Lag makes it worse than a instant stun. I still chose javy

Invigorating is a staple on my blazing shield build XD.

Edit: for close range sweeps spam, yeah...i may choose it over javy, but its rough not having that range for me

Bar swap breaks the animation for drain.

Juhasow · July 2017

There is 2 really problematic skills on magplars : radiant destruction and extended ritual. Radiant have too high range and combined with puryfying light is sometiems too easy overkill spammable safely from large distances so really hard to counter. Extended ritual well it's too cheap imo if we consider fact it removes instantly 5 (!) negative effects grants healing HoT and 8% healing buff.

Kartalin · July 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

I dont like invigorating drain on most damage magplar builds. Man i tried that out like two weekends ago, the lag made it friggin impossible to break the beam with block, although the ultimate is REALLY nice. Lag makes it worse than a instant stun. I still chose javy

You can ani-cancel it if your goal is only to stun the target.

DeHei · July 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

Ok... @DeHei did not mean to be so rude...

So tell me, for the sake of all those that do not know, what stun is better than javy, why its better than javy, even include other classes stuns if you must.

I do not see how any single stun can possibly be better than javy, save for maybe somthing like fossilize for a magplar using sweeps spam. Having the root after the stun would be excelent.

In the case of sweep spam, why though is it not better to just rely on the stun from toppling, if the arguement is that blazing spear was better than toppling for close range, why would that be better than javy. Cause i have used javy even at its longer knockback range in place of toppling charge and blazing spear stun, and have always felt better.

Please tell.

Baconlad wrote: »

Ah and you keep saying that PC enemies are just better. Ok i cant argue that, being that ive played since 2014 you should know by now i do in fact play on PC.

So your telling me i could not possible get a javelin off on a "good player". Sorry man, but if you get stunned by anything in game, youll also get stunned by javy. "Good players" get stunned too. Stop kidding yourself. Name a player who streams, and ill show you a video of him getting stunned...there is nothing different about javelins stun compared to any other ranged stun...so if you can get stunned by frags/ stone fist/ destructive reach...you will get stunned by javy. Very missleading arguement

Sure, the difference is amazing. Your javelin is a skill, which knocknack and stun for a short time. Only argument to use it is for procc burning light and only with these damage it deals nearly same damage like crystal fragment or others. You use it and need to walk again to the target to use puncturing sweep for example. Or use your gapcloser after that, what not stun, because the enemy used breaking out and got CC immunity now. Your capcloser do similar to your javelin just few damage. In total you have now 2 slots for a stun and same damage like a sorc with 1 attack and he stay save on range. There is nothing to understand wrong. Its a bad build, i think. The only 2 stuns for common skills i would prefer are the vampire drain (untireg, low damage, cc, bit life back) or that bash from 1H+shield (30% less healing, stun and low damage), because they give several functions. Templar dont have place for a skill, what just do CC! I need to have BiS skills, because of rare skillslots!

Baconlad wrote: »

I dont like invigorating drain on most damage magplar builds. Man i tried that out like two weekends ago, the lag made it friggin impossible to break the beam with block, although the ultimate is REALLY nice. Lag makes it worse than a instant stun. I still chose javy

Invigorating is a staple on my blazing shield build XD.

Edit: for close range sweeps spam, yeah...i may choose it over javy, but its rough not having that range for me

Blazing shield templar? Ok you are a zerger, that is explaining enough...

Juhasow wrote: »

There is 2 really problematic skills on magplars : radiant destruction and extended ritual. Radiant have too high range and combined with puryfying light is sometiems too easy overkill spammable safely from large distances so really hard to counter. Extended ritual well it's too cheap imo if we consider fact it removes instantly 5 (!) negative effects grants healing HoT and 8% healing buff.

Yeah ritual is strong, but not op. It has a chance to purge 1-5effects. Sometimes you just purge 1..
Radiant really? That skill only works for zerglings. Sure when anybody drops to low hp, he is dead, but only on an open field. You should allways stay next to a wall or something that can used to break skills like that cause line of sight

Brutusmax1mus · July 2017

Akinos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Ok... @DeHei did not mean to be so rude...

So tell me, for the sake of all those that do not know, what stun is better than javy, why its better than javy, even include other classes stuns if you must.

I do not see how any single stun can possibly be better than javy, save for maybe somthing like fossilize for a magplar using sweeps spam. Having the root after the stun would be excelent.

In the case of sweep spam, why though is it not better to just rely on the stun from toppling, if the arguement is that blazing spear was better than toppling for close range, why would that be better than javy. Cause i have used javy even at its longer knockback range in place of toppling charge and blazing spear stun, and have always felt better.

Please tell.

Invigorating drain>javelin.

If youre within 12 yards.

generalmyrick · July 2017

i get more damage from a highelf magplar wearing all heavy than a dark elf magplar wearing spinners grothdar and mother's sorrow.

Baconlad · August 2017

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

Joy_Division · August 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

Wtf is wrong with javelin anyway? I hear this often, but have always thought it a *** excuse. Javelin is [snip] amazing. Blazing spear stun was much worse. Only thing it had going for it was to drop it on a choke when you were trying to LOS, without having to aim it at your target. Which javelin will do a better job getting ur target off of you anyway. Are you mad you dont have a stun that goes through block? Is that the problem?

You also mentioned other stuns that players use...so whats wrong with them? Do other classes not have to go outside their class to get buffs/ cc/ execute/ heals/ defense/ damage?
Thank god we arent dragonknights...who dont even get a magick execute at ALL...
All in all i think magplar is the most well rounded class, we can tank, heal, support, damage. Any multiple different ways of doing each. I would say as templar, we lack one thing we NEED. Thats is mobility. The game has shown that being able to be mobile and reset the fight is king in cyrodil atleast. And guess what! We get that too...through being a vampire. It would be nice to not have to rely on vamp...but im not gonna complain when other classes lack so much more than magplar do. We seriously get to have our cake and eat it too.

Strongest spec in game? Nah. Deff not. But you take a player who knows what hes doing with the class, you can wreck any spec in game.

Magplar is great. Dont deny it. Im glad for being a templar over any other class. We have so many more (successful) build options/ playstyles, no class can compete with us

There isn't anything "wrong" with javelin, however for a long time there wasn't anything particularly special about it. All it does is knock players back and does OK damage for being quite an expensive skill (more than 1000 more magicka than sweeps, 1400 more than sunfire, etc.). There wasn't much to distinguish it at all from Flame Reach (indeed, for templars who wore Valkyn, Flame Reach was arguably better). Now that ZoS made the knockback 8 metes, it's better, but it still just stuns, and is easy to counter as it is reflectable, dodgable, and blockable.

Without question, it is the most annoying skill in the game to get hit with, however annoying isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. When I get hit with this, I just CC break and continue doing whatever it was that I was doing. It does little to actually impede an aggressor the way Fear or fossilize does since the latter two have potent after-effects that can't be ignored like Javelin. Sure, it can be part of an effective offensive combo (provided the opponent does not dodge or have reflect up), but knocking my opponent so far away is not necessarily something I want to do since my best skill is melee.

If a Templar wants to stay stationary in a fight, and many do because of their defensive circles and Sweeps, then Blazing Spear is a more synergistic CC. It wasn't particularly great either, but it had a lot of other uses (AoE, more burning light procs, resource return) that made it almost always worth slotting.

None of this means I think Javelin is weak or doesn't have a place or that players can use it to strong effect. That being said, it has a narrow function, no after-effect, and can be defended against a multitude of ways. I personally don't think these weaknesses (that Fossilize and Fear don't have) is worth the OK damage in return; if I want to CC an opponent, I'd rather have the reliability that the skill I use will disrupt them. There are legit reasons not to like it as a CC option.

******

As far as magplars go, I do agree they are a versatile class that can compete with just about anything out there. At least for PvP. Since that's what I do, I am fine with their standing in cyrodiil's pecking order. From what I understand, their PvE DPS is low (I think because of the execute bug) and no competitive Trial raid will use them as a tank, so there are things that ZoS can do in this respect.

My biggest complaint is that I feel much of what made the class distinctive and fun to play has been taken away and absorbed into the champion system, gear, and generic buffs accessible to everyone. But that has happened to every class.

[Edited to remove profanity]

Akinos · August 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

The only really good thing javelin is good for is pvping on Alessia Bridge imo, it's funny to knock people off into the slaughterfish. Drain can get you ult, can be animation canceled into another skill, and most people don't expect to get stunned by it, everybody expects a templar to spam javelin.

Javelin is a fun skill and does have it's uses, but overall, drain just has more utility and usefulness. After all, why would you want to push somebody 8 meters away from you as a melee magplar. BTW Javelin is a knockback, not a stun, I sorta feel like they are in 2 different categories even though they are both hard CC's. Meh, both are good skills, i just feel like a javelin throw is too predictable because you can see it coming from so far away, and because every other templar and their mom uses it.

And for the lulz, here's an old javelin clip of mine from near launch, back when everybody was bad at pvp, including myself.

https://youtu.be/SPf2Ng0Rfeg

Drdeath20 · August 2017

Magplars make great zerglings. Awesome heal ultimate, range execute and a cleanse.

For solo play magplars are reliant on world skills.

Fb ( up close fights)
Sweeps, vamps bane, ritual of ret, radiant magelight, invigorating drain.

Bb (range)
RO, force pulse, honor the dead, eclipse, dark flare

My entire build is built around having a hard stun and a strong instant cast range spell that can be worked into a burst.

Without invigorating drain and force pulse i cannot compete with good players.

DeHei · August 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

I dont want to have stress with you or others.. I dont see much arguments for javelin, but i stopped playing without drain too. The 12meters range arent good for all situations too. I just think we dont have good options. Other has many more better and i dont want to support it. Use the skill and when you have success with it, its fine. For a Stemplar i can understand why jarvelin. Because he dont have options. As Magplar you have better in my opinion. I hope you can understand it, you dont need to agree

Joy_Division wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Wtf is wrong with javelin anyway? I hear this often, but have always thought it a *** excuse. Javelin is fkn amazing. Blazing spear stun was much worse. Only thing it had going for it was to drop it on a choke when you were trying to LOS, without having to aim it at your target. Which javelin will do a better job getting ur target off of you anyway. Are you mad you dont have a stun that goes through block? Is that the problem?

You also mentioned other stuns that players use...so whats wrong with them? Do other classes not have to go outside their class to get buffs/ cc/ execute/ heals/ defense/ damage?
Thank god we arent dragonknights...who dont even get a magick execute at ALL...
All in all i think magplar is the most well rounded class, we can tank, heal, support, damage. Any multiple different ways of doing each. I would say as templar, we lack one thing we NEED. Thats is mobility. The game has shown that being able to be mobile and reset the fight is king in cyrodil atleast. And guess what! We get that too...through being a vampire. It would be nice to not have to rely on vamp...but im not gonna complain when other classes lack so much more than magplar do. We seriously get to have our cake and eat it too.

Strongest spec in game? Nah. Deff not. But you take a player who knows what hes doing with the class, you can wreck any spec in game.

Magplar is great. Dont deny it. Im glad for being a templar over any other class. We have so many more (successful) build options/ playstyles, no class can compete with us

There isn't anything "wrong" with javelin, however for a long time there wasn't anything particularly special about it. All it does is knock players back and does OK damage for being quite an expensive skill (more than 1000 more magicka than sweeps, 1400 more than sunfire, etc.). There wasn't much to distinguish it at all from Flame Reach (indeed, for templars who wore Valkyn, Flame Reach was arguably better). Now that ZoS made the knockback 8 metes, it's better, but it still just stuns, and is easy to counter as it is reflectable, dodgable, and blockable.

Without question, it is the most annoying skill in the game to get hit with, however annoying isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. When I get hit with this, I just CC break and continue doing whatever it was that I was doing. It does little to actually impede an aggressor the way Fear or fossilize does since the latter two have potent after-effects that can't be ignored like Javelin. Sure, it can be part of an effective offensive combo (provided the opponent does not dodge or have reflect up), but knocking my opponent so far away is not necessarily something I want to do since my best skill is melee.

If a Templar wants to stay stationary in a fight, and many do because of their defensive circles and Sweeps, then Blazing Spear is a more synergistic CC. It wasn't particularly great either, but it had a lot of other uses (AoE, more burning light procs, resource return) that made it almost always worth slotting.

None of this means I think Javelin is weak or doesn't have a place or that players can use it to strong effect. That being said, it has a narrow function, no after-effect, and can be defended against a multitude of ways. I personally don't think these weaknesses (that Fossilize and Fear don't have) is worth the OK damage in return; if I want to CC an opponent, I'd rather have the reliability that the skill I use will disrupt them. There are legit reasons not to like it as a CC option.

******

As far as magplars go, I do agree they are a versatile class that can compete with just about anything out there. At least for PvP. Since that's what I do, I am fine with their standing in cyrodiil's pecking order. From what I understand, their PvE DPS is low (I think because of the execute bug) and no competitive Trial raid will use them as a tank, so there are things that ZoS can do in this respect.

My biggest complaint is that I feel much of what made the class distinctive and fun to play has been taken away and absorbed into the champion system, gear, and generic buffs accessible to everyone. But that has happened to every class.

I would be happy for more options. I never saw a argument why templar need to lose there stun on blazing spear for example. The explaining from ZOS was a lie, everybody wondered why this need a change.. I dont think they will go back to the old skill, but i hope we really get better options.
For a static fight like Magplar need to is a 8meters drop back not good.. i think its easy to understand..

Akinos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

The only really good thing javelin is good for is pvping on Alessia Bridge imo, it's funny to knock people off into the slaughterfish. Drain can get you ult, can be animation canceled into another skill, and most people don't expect to get stunned by it, everybody expects a templar to spam javelin.

Javelin is a fun skill and does have it's uses, but overall, drain just has more utility and usefulness. After all, why would you want to push somebody 8 meters away from you as a melee magplar. BTW Javelin is a knockback, not a stun, I sorta feel like they are in 2 different categories even though they are both hard CC's. Meh, both are good skills, i just feel like a javelin throw is too predictable because you can see it coming from so far away, and because every other templar and their mom uses it.

And for the lulz, here's an old javelin clip of mine from near launch, back when everybody was bad at pvp, including myself.
https://youtu.be/SPf2Ng0Rfeg

Mate its a funny clip, but wtf its exactly what i am talking, you will not see scrubs like this many times on Pc. That guys would test PvP on day and in reason why they only get killed they would just do PvE..
Every player i know, use selfheal for example..

Xsorus · August 2017

I like my mag Templar, I had to drop my vamp though as fire damage is to rough on me, and I'm not eating torug pact next patch.

Stun wise you can run out charge or dawn breaker if you play no cp like me.

DeHei · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

I like my mag Templar, I had to drop my vamp though as fire damage is to rough on me, and I'm not eating torug pact next patch.

Stun wise you can run out charge or dawn breaker if you play no cp like me.

Yeah dawnbreaker is a good possibility only using a stun in right moment. I like it too

Xsorus · August 2017

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I like my mag Templar, I had to drop my vamp though as fire damage is to rough on me, and I'm not eating torug pact next patch.

Stun wise you can run out charge or dawn breaker if you play no cp like me.

Yeah dawnbreaker is a good possibility only using a stun in right moment. I like it too

I don't have my dawnbreaker leveled on my templar, nor my damn restro ult

That Restro ult would probably help with the squishyness but Dawnbreaker can be a good DPS move on no CP if you don't stun them with our Charge.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2017

Surely you don't get the ultimate regen, heal, and damage if you animation cancel invigorating drain for the stun. At least i don't on ps4.

Akinos · August 2017

DeHei wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

I dont want to have stress with you or others.. I dont see much arguments for javelin, but i stopped playing without drain too. The 12meters range arent good for all situations too. I just think we dont have good options. Other has many more better and i dont want to support it. Use the skill and when you have success with it, its fine. For a Stemplar i can understand why jarvelin. Because he dont have options. As Magplar you have better in my opinion. I hope you can understand it, you dont need to agree

Joy_Division wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Wtf is wrong with javelin anyway? I hear this often, but have always thought it a *** excuse. Javelin is fkn amazing. Blazing spear stun was much worse. Only thing it had going for it was to drop it on a choke when you were trying to LOS, without having to aim it at your target. Which javelin will do a better job getting ur target off of you anyway. Are you mad you dont have a stun that goes through block? Is that the problem?

You also mentioned other stuns that players use...so whats wrong with them? Do other classes not have to go outside their class to get buffs/ cc/ execute/ heals/ defense/ damage?
Thank god we arent dragonknights...who dont even get a magick execute at ALL...
All in all i think magplar is the most well rounded class, we can tank, heal, support, damage. Any multiple different ways of doing each. I would say as templar, we lack one thing we NEED. Thats is mobility. The game has shown that being able to be mobile and reset the fight is king in cyrodil atleast. And guess what! We get that too...through being a vampire. It would be nice to not have to rely on vamp...but im not gonna complain when other classes lack so much more than magplar do. We seriously get to have our cake and eat it too.

Strongest spec in game? Nah. Deff not. But you take a player who knows what hes doing with the class, you can wreck any spec in game.

Magplar is great. Dont deny it. Im glad for being a templar over any other class. We have so many more (successful) build options/ playstyles, no class can compete with us

There isn't anything "wrong" with javelin, however for a long time there wasn't anything particularly special about it. All it does is knock players back and does OK damage for being quite an expensive skill (more than 1000 more magicka than sweeps, 1400 more than sunfire, etc.). There wasn't much to distinguish it at all from Flame Reach (indeed, for templars who wore Valkyn, Flame Reach was arguably better). Now that ZoS made the knockback 8 metes, it's better, but it still just stuns, and is easy to counter as it is reflectable, dodgable, and blockable.

Without question, it is the most annoying skill in the game to get hit with, however annoying isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. When I get hit with this, I just CC break and continue doing whatever it was that I was doing. It does little to actually impede an aggressor the way Fear or fossilize does since the latter two have potent after-effects that can't be ignored like Javelin. Sure, it can be part of an effective offensive combo (provided the opponent does not dodge or have reflect up), but knocking my opponent so far away is not necessarily something I want to do since my best skill is melee.

If a Templar wants to stay stationary in a fight, and many do because of their defensive circles and Sweeps, then Blazing Spear is a more synergistic CC. It wasn't particularly great either, but it had a lot of other uses (AoE, more burning light procs, resource return) that made it almost always worth slotting.

None of this means I think Javelin is weak or doesn't have a place or that players can use it to strong effect. That being said, it has a narrow function, no after-effect, and can be defended against a multitude of ways. I personally don't think these weaknesses (that Fossilize and Fear don't have) is worth the OK damage in return; if I want to CC an opponent, I'd rather have the reliability that the skill I use will disrupt them. There are legit reasons not to like it as a CC option.

******

As far as magplars go, I do agree they are a versatile class that can compete with just about anything out there. At least for PvP. Since that's what I do, I am fine with their standing in cyrodiil's pecking order. From what I understand, their PvE DPS is low (I think because of the execute bug) and no competitive Trial raid will use them as a tank, so there are things that ZoS can do in this respect.

My biggest complaint is that I feel much of what made the class distinctive and fun to play has been taken away and absorbed into the champion system, gear, and generic buffs accessible to everyone. But that has happened to every class.

I would be happy for more options. I never saw a argument why templar need to lose there stun on blazing spear for example. The explaining from ZOS was a lie, everybody wondered why this need a change.. I dont think they will go back to the old skill, but i hope we really get better options.
For a static fight like Magplar need to is a 8meters drop back not good.. i think its easy to understand..

Akinos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

The only really good thing javelin is good for is pvping on Alessia Bridge imo, it's funny to knock people off into the slaughterfish. Drain can get you ult, can be animation canceled into another skill, and most people don't expect to get stunned by it, everybody expects a templar to spam javelin.

Javelin is a fun skill and does have it's uses, but overall, drain just has more utility and usefulness. After all, why would you want to push somebody 8 meters away from you as a melee magplar. BTW Javelin is a knockback, not a stun, I sorta feel like they are in 2 different categories even though they are both hard CC's. Meh, both are good skills, i just feel like a javelin throw is too predictable because you can see it coming from so far away, and because every other templar and their mom uses it.

And for the lulz, here's an old javelin clip of mine from near launch, back when everybody was bad at pvp, including myself.
https://youtu.be/SPf2Ng0Rfeg

Mate its a funny clip, but wtf its exactly what i am talking, you will not see scrubs like this many times on Pc. That guys would test PvP on day and in reason why they only get killed they would just do PvE..
Every player i know, use selfheal for example..

Did you read what I said....that clip is from early 2014 like right after the game came out lol, everybody was a scrub then imo and players like that were literally everywhere.

Joy_Division · August 2017

Akinos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

The only really good thing javelin is good for is pvping on Alessia Bridge imo, it's funny to knock people off into the slaughterfish. Drain can get you ult, can be animation canceled into another skill, and most people don't expect to get stunned by it, everybody expects a templar to spam javelin.

Javelin is a fun skill and does have it's uses, but overall, drain just has more utility and usefulness. After all, why would you want to push somebody 8 meters away from you as a melee magplar. BTW Javelin is a knockback, not a stun, I sorta feel like they are in 2 different categories even though they are both hard CC's. Meh, both are good skills, i just feel like a javelin throw is too predictable because you can see it coming from so far away, and because every other templar and their mom uses it.

And for the lulz, here's an old javelin clip of mine from near launch, back when everybody was bad at pvp, including myself.
https://youtu.be/SPf2Ng0Rfeg

Is that ... Healing Ritual?

And Sieg Blackhart, there's a blast from the past!

Lore_lai · August 2017

DeHei · August 2017

Akinos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

I dont want to have stress with you or others.. I dont see much arguments for javelin, but i stopped playing without drain too. The 12meters range arent good for all situations too. I just think we dont have good options. Other has many more better and i dont want to support it. Use the skill and when you have success with it, its fine. For a Stemplar i can understand why jarvelin. Because he dont have options. As Magplar you have better in my opinion. I hope you can understand it, you dont need to agree

Joy_Division wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

Wtf is wrong with javelin anyway? I hear this often, but have always thought it a *** excuse. Javelin is [snip] amazing. Blazing spear stun was much worse. Only thing it had going for it was to drop it on a choke when you were trying to LOS, without having to aim it at your target. Which javelin will do a better job getting ur target off of you anyway. Are you mad you dont have a stun that goes through block? Is that the problem?

You also mentioned other stuns that players use...so whats wrong with them? Do other classes not have to go outside their class to get buffs/ cc/ execute/ heals/ defense/ damage?
Thank god we arent dragonknights...who dont even get a magick execute at ALL...
All in all i think magplar is the most well rounded class, we can tank, heal, support, damage. Any multiple different ways of doing each. I would say as templar, we lack one thing we NEED. Thats is mobility. The game has shown that being able to be mobile and reset the fight is king in cyrodil atleast. And guess what! We get that too...through being a vampire. It would be nice to not have to rely on vamp...but im not gonna complain when other classes lack so much more than magplar do. We seriously get to have our cake and eat it too.

Strongest spec in game? Nah. Deff not. But you take a player who knows what hes doing with the class, you can wreck any spec in game.

Magplar is great. Dont deny it. Im glad for being a templar over any other class. We have so many more (successful) build options/ playstyles, no class can compete with us

There isn't anything "wrong" with javelin, however for a long time there wasn't anything particularly special about it. All it does is knock players back and does OK damage for being quite an expensive skill (more than 1000 more magicka than sweeps, 1400 more than sunfire, etc.). There wasn't much to distinguish it at all from Flame Reach (indeed, for templars who wore Valkyn, Flame Reach was arguably better). Now that ZoS made the knockback 8 metes, it's better, but it still just stuns, and is easy to counter as it is reflectable, dodgable, and blockable.

Without question, it is the most annoying skill in the game to get hit with, however annoying isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. When I get hit with this, I just CC break and continue doing whatever it was that I was doing. It does little to actually impede an aggressor the way Fear or fossilize does since the latter two have potent after-effects that can't be ignored like Javelin. Sure, it can be part of an effective offensive combo (provided the opponent does not dodge or have reflect up), but knocking my opponent so far away is not necessarily something I want to do since my best skill is melee.

If a Templar wants to stay stationary in a fight, and many do because of their defensive circles and Sweeps, then Blazing Spear is a more synergistic CC. It wasn't particularly great either, but it had a lot of other uses (AoE, more burning light procs, resource return) that made it almost always worth slotting.

None of this means I think Javelin is weak or doesn't have a place or that players can use it to strong effect. That being said, it has a narrow function, no after-effect, and can be defended against a multitude of ways. I personally don't think these weaknesses (that Fossilize and Fear don't have) is worth the OK damage in return; if I want to CC an opponent, I'd rather have the reliability that the skill I use will disrupt them. There are legit reasons not to like it as a CC option.

******

As far as magplars go, I do agree they are a versatile class that can compete with just about anything out there. At least for PvP. Since that's what I do, I am fine with their standing in cyrodiil's pecking order. From what I understand, their PvE DPS is low (I think because of the execute bug) and no competitive Trial raid will use them as a tank, so there are things that ZoS can do in this respect.

My biggest complaint is that I feel much of what made the class distinctive and fun to play has been taken away and absorbed into the champion system, gear, and generic buffs accessible to everyone. But that has happened to every class.

I would be happy for more options. I never saw a argument why templar need to lose there stun on blazing spear for example. The explaining from ZOS was a lie, everybody wondered why this need a change.. I dont think they will go back to the old skill, but i hope we really get better options.
For a static fight like Magplar need to is a 8meters drop back not good.. i think its easy to understand..

Akinos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

The only really good thing javelin is good for is pvping on Alessia Bridge imo, it's funny to knock people off into the slaughterfish. Drain can get you ult, can be animation canceled into another skill, and most people don't expect to get stunned by it, everybody expects a templar to spam javelin.

Javelin is a fun skill and does have it's uses, but overall, drain just has more utility and usefulness. After all, why would you want to push somebody 8 meters away from you as a melee magplar. BTW Javelin is a knockback, not a stun, I sorta feel like they are in 2 different categories even though they are both hard CC's. Meh, both are good skills, i just feel like a javelin throw is too predictable because you can see it coming from so far away, and because every other templar and their mom uses it.

And for the lulz, here's an old javelin clip of mine from near launch, back when everybody was bad at pvp, including myself.
https://youtu.be/SPf2Ng0Rfeg

Mate its a funny clip, but wtf its exactly what i am talking, you will not see scrubs like this many times on Pc. That guys would test PvP on day and in reason why they only get killed they would just do PvE..
Every player i know, use selfheal for example..

Did you read what I said....that clip is from early 2014 like right after the game came out lol, everybody was a scrub then imo and players like that were literally everywhere.

No sry that the clip was from 2014 i dont read. True, that we all needed to learn much..
After much learning i say javelin is just a funny skill, but nothing more

Kartalin · August 2017

My favorite thing to do with javelin is knocking snipers and would-be oil pourers off the edge of inner keep posterns and outposts onto the stairs below. It's a lot of fun and gives my group respite for a few seconds.

Minno · August 2017

Akinos wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

@DeHei dood...rofl. tell me what skills are better? You say best in slot. Thats easy as *** to say, but youre not giving any info. What CC is better than javy? @Akinos is a "good player" (atleast i would say so i dont truly know much about him). He says invigorating drain. I would argue that invigorating drain is incredibly situational. It short range means that unless you have a tree next to you, you arent doing *** with it. God hope ur not in lag other wise kiss that bar swap cancel goodbye. So at best with all the good drain is (undodgeable, instant, very hard to break animation for ur enemy) but it AT MOST is equal to jav in all of my play. Even when its working properly its clunky, and requires a cancel to end its animation.

See dehei? Akinos gets it! He gave me a skill he thought was better, and may be better for his build. Im done discussing onlysh javelin, give me some points to think avout regarding skills you think are better

Also quit crapping on what you think i am as a player. Everyone jumps into a zerg surf now and again, and yeah. My favorite build the game has ever had is blazing shield builds. Does that mean im a zerger? How do you know im not part of a small team guild, or just enjoy jumping onto enemy flags alone shield bombing zergs. Drop that *** elitist attitude towards me bro. Its not gonna work

The only really good thing javelin is good for is pvping on Alessia Bridge imo, it's funny to knock people off into the slaughterfish. Drain can get you ult, can be animation canceled into another skill, and most people don't expect to get stunned by it, everybody expects a templar to spam javelin.

Javelin is a fun skill and does have it's uses, but overall, drain just has more utility and usefulness. After all, why would you want to push somebody 8 meters away from you as a melee magplar. BTW Javelin is a knockback, not a stun, I sorta feel like they are in 2 different categories even though they are both hard CC's. Meh, both are good skills, i just feel like a javelin throw is too predictable because you can see it coming from so far away, and because every other templar and their mom uses it.

And for the lulz, here's an old javelin clip of mine from near launch, back when everybody was bad at pvp, including myself.
https://youtu.be/SPf2Ng0Rfeg

I forget how slow that ability was. It looked like a paper airplane being thrown lol.