Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The game has been actively harder to play with the sustain nerfs (Despite all the talk of raising the floor which has been a dirty lie) and the game has not made any effort to actually teach players.

The game is demanding more of the players, yet isn't and has not taught them more than the bare basics. At this point, the game needs to start genuinely teaching what builds work, because there is your problem.

Or, god forbid, have rigid classes. But until it picks one we're still gonna be screwed in this same way.

PS: Demanding players google has been unreasonable, usually is unreasonable. There is no excuse for having to look up outside aid outside of something like raiding. The general gist should be learnable in *** house. ZOS is souly responsible for that, and the blame lies at their feet.

tunepunk wrote: »

I think one problem is that many people have one or two skills they spam as their DPS skill, only using one bar. I think there's never going to be an end to that. Many people don't even use their back bar.

One problem is, they find builds online that require 2 bar rotation but they don't use it. I myself is pretty lazy so I've made some builds that focuses on doing massive damage on 1 bar. Weapon swapping and keeping buffs and debuffs up seems to be very hard for some people, and I don't blame them. It's hard and takes a lot of practice.

Some solutions would be for ZOS to:

* Add some kind of set that disable back bar, but increase front front bar skills dramatically.
* Or sets that disable back bar but add much more damage to light heavy attacks.

I wouldn't mind sticking to only using one bar, if i had everything covered on that bar. Damage, self heal, some buff, and maybe some AOE. I rarely use back bar anyway unless it's in a longer fight, for dots and buffs.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I always like it when DDs keep attacking Grobul and the dmg is simply reflected back. Great skill and knowledge indicator.

Some ppl will take advise and some wont listen. I personally try to help players who are willing to listen and improve. If not, I either solo the boss if possible or just leave. There not really a point in trying if something doesnt work and ppl are not willing to change.

Kneighbors wrote: »

I just noticed how many groups I started to leave which consist of cp400+.

Now CP doesn't means much. If the player isn't following guides or watches youtube videos there's no chance he will get to even mediocre dps of over 10k single target.

The main reason is the game can not be understood intuitively anymore. Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack. Most casuals go by the pattern "spam my strongest skills" which was working ok before Morrowind. But now he is running out of resources after 5 spams. Now you can easily witness cp500+ who is struggling to kill a mob in vet DLC dungeon.

I post this because I became a witness today to a group with 2 DD's of cp630 who get Grobul to 90% after he first laid down. Needless to say they couldn't kill enough netches and we lost the fight even tho my tank was holding alone between 30 netches (but couldn't res due to constant pushing). I was feeling amused leaving a group of 630cp DD's. Any average DD who put Necropotence and knows that you need to AoE+DoT+heavy can solo this boss.

Just feeling sad it turned up like this, I really liked playing in random groups. I liked to explain mechanics to new guys etc, but how can I explain someone how to gain more DPS during dungeon?

Diminish wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I always like it when DDs keep attacking Grobul and the dmg is simply reflected back. Great skill and knowledge indicator.

Some ppl will take advise and some wont listen. I personally try to help players who are willing to listen and improve. If not, I either solo the boss if possible or just leave. There not really a point in trying if something doesnt work and ppl are not willing to change.

Not all attacks are reflected back. You can damage the boss even while he is not grounded. Personally, unless ads become a problem I put damage on the boss everytime I can. Every little bit adds up. I've killed him numerous times between grounding phases.

Kneighbors wrote: »

I just noticed how many groups I started to leave which consist of cp400+.

Now CP doesn't means much. If the player isn't following guides or watches youtube videos there's no chance he will get to even mediocre dps of over 10k single target.

The main reason is the game can not be understood intuitively anymore. Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack. Most casuals go by the pattern "spam my strongest skills" which was working ok before Morrowind. But now he is running out of resources after 5 spams. Now you can easily witness cp500+ who is struggling to kill a mob in vet DLC dungeon.

I post this because I became a witness today to a group with 2 DD's of cp630 who get Grobul to 90% after he first laid down. Needless to say they couldn't kill enough netches and we lost the fight even tho my tank was holding alone between 30 netches (but couldn't res due to constant pushing). I was feeling amused leaving a group of 630cp DD's. Any average DD who put Necropotence and knows that you need to AoE+DoT+heavy can solo this boss.

Just feeling sad it turned up like this, I really liked playing in random groups. I liked to explain mechanics to new guys etc, but how can I explain someone how to gain more DPS during dungeon?

Chadak wrote: »

Absolutely nothing in this game teaches people how to rip out high DPS, and no, putting tougher mobs out there doesn't do that.

Why MMO's so ubiquitously teach people to swim by throwing them into the lake, I'll never know, but what I do know is this; I've known a lot of great players that needed to be taught, and I've known a lot of great players that teach themselves.

I fall into the latter camp. Its my learning style in life on the whole. I'd say that probably 80% or more of the global population does not fall into this category.

Most people don't perform well in pugs because they learn to perform well enough to do basic content, they habitulatize the tactics and patterns that come easiest and most intuitively to them and, in MMO's, that essentially guarantees that you're going to suck at everything 100% of the time.

Is that their fault? No. I actually lay the fault for that at the feet of game designers that think its cool to not provide any guidance or tutorials on their invariably arcane systems and the quirks therein.

G'head. Try explaining animations canceling to some new player. It's going to sound like an exploit to them.

How do I know? Because I was that new player once, and I still, to this day, feel like its an exploit, even though its pretty well clarified by ZOS as having been an accidental thing they're just going to let slide.

I've been playing MMO's since the Ultima Online days and, irrespective, my intuitition is worthless. Because these games are not designed to be intuitively playable.

False difficulty is when you have to fight the controls in order to play something as it is meant to be played.

False difficulty is when you have counter-intuitive and completely unintuitive systems that are explained nowhere, or are literally exploits that simply aren't being treated as such because the developers don't want to bother fixing it.

MMO's in general, and this one no differently, are festooned with false difficulty and illusions of challenge that invariably make majorities of players stumble all over themselves trying to play them right.

And this is celebrated by the ignorant few, who praise it as 'a lack of handholding'.

You don't get to have no handholding and get even a significant minority of players that know how to play at an advanced level, because most human beings don't learn best by being thrown headfirst into an endeavor and left to their own devices.

They will very typically find something that works for them in a manner that consistently enough gets them what they need or want in order to function and that is all.

Know how, in real life, very few people are inventors or entrepreneurs?

Ever noticed how few people teach themselves four languages, advanced physics, advanced chemistry and moderately advanced medicine, despite that the resources to self-teach all of those things and far more are literally at our fingertips on the internet?

Most people don't learn best on their own. Most people learn best by being taught in some form or another.

So, before anyone starts whining about 'handholding', understand the following.

You can have one or the other; a broadly competent playerbase that's been adequately taught how to perform competently, or the relatively tiny minority that have everything it takes to achieve excellence with minimal help.

There's a very good chance that if you think you're the latter, you're probably not. You've probably studied lots of videos other people made, learned from theorycrafting other people put the time and labor into parsing out and found the resources in either case with ease due to the time and effort put in by others to package and present their information on youtube or some internet site or another.

Be very careful before puffing yourself up and thinking you're a self-made gamer. Chances are amazing that you'd be completely mediocre too, if not for someone else doing something by which you have benefited.

You want better players? Encourage developers to make more intuitive systems that are easier to use well, or at the very least to make their games in a manner that actually teaches people in a pro-active manner how to perform well in said game.

Or sit here and cry about how everyone's so terrible and its just terrible and you can't understand why everyone's terrible, but its terrible because PUG's are mostly full of people that have learned exactly what the game has taught them; not much.

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For me the game has never been very intuitive and the only way to learn is for someone to teach you or use Google and YouTube. That has always been the case for me on PS4, not sure about other platforms. I have used these, can have all the right skills, food and potions slotted but still have it all turn to crap once the fight starts.

I can never remember rotations, cannot fight and track any buffs/debuffs, forget to reuse my potions, etc., etc. For some reason, in the heat of battle, everything I have tried to learn gets lost and my fingers all turn into thumbs. My DD's also always tend to melt mobs in no time but I have never had great single target damage.

What I am seeing lately in normal dungeons, are DD's with no AoE skills slotted. I am running a new healer through these dungeons for the new trophies and I am seeing DD's doing nothing but light and heavy attacks, killing mobs one target at a time. I end up putting out some HoT's and start assisting with the DPS just to speed things up.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

PUGs are less effective now because of Morrowind and its "balance" changes. Players spend at least 21% more resources for the same spells/abilities they were casting back in Homestead. No one asked for those changes and unless that random player in your PUG uses this website/youtube, they wouldn't know that they have been nerfed so severely. Worse yet, many have no desire to change how they play (frankly, they shouldn't have to - ZoS messed up) because of the sudden nerf.

The game has become stale to some and a chore to many. Even if you use this website and check build guides, your own build is still crap by itself in a group composed of 3 other players that haven't tried to or refuse to change due to the Morrowind nerf.